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Posted by: Estriella Faerie.4029

Estriella Faerie.4029

Sorry about the long post, maybe a bit offtopic, but answering Nike question:

I don’t know the details, but my general scuttlebutt understanding is that it shouldn’t have been possible to get above Rank X (see, I’m so ignorant I don’t even know what the ‘intended’ cut-off even was). So some part of my usually justice-minded self thinks “Screw those exploiters. Screw them into the ground.”

I don’t know if that’s true. I don’t know if that’s right. But I do know that unless I really stop to consider it, that what I unthinkingly feel.

Help me understand better. You may have more allies than you think.

Back when Fractals were introduced, the dungeon was presented as an endless dungeon, where the challenge would increase as you gain access to higher levels. So, people faced this challenge, trying to go as high as possible. Back then, the maximum AR was 30, so you couldn’t survive agony at level 40+. But on every map (except Maw), you could still dodge the agony if you concentrate enough. So people looked for ways to survive Maw agony. On level 40-48, it was easy. 2 guardians who chained tome of courage with the right timing could make the team survive. After that, it became harder, and different teams used different strategies. Some continued with the “not dying” way, with multiple skills (necro death shroud to survive long enough to revive a downed guy with the rez signet, etc.), while some went to the “die and rez” way, with either rez orbs or rez by a ranger pet. This is what was called exploiting by some players. However, how do you define the exploit ? How do you know that using a chain of Tome of courage is a smart way of doing it, and using death shroud to survive long enough to do a rez signet is not a smart thing, but an exploit ?

People continued that way all the way to 80. Then, after finishing level 80, they saw that they couldn’t open a level 81 fractal. So it was asked directly in the forum (dungeon section) if it was a bug, or if a cap was intended. This was never answered, until, more than a month later, a patch was made to put a hard cap at fractal level 50. Fractals over 50 could still be opened, but the agony on Maw was upped (around 200k per tick) so that nobody could survive it, and agony was reapplied when you rally, so the “die and rez” way was impossible too. When this change was made, Anet said they never intended for people to get this high, as they wanted people to go higher only when they would release more AR.

As it was still possible to open levels 50+, some people saw it as Anet acknowledging the possibility that players would continue to level to 80, and as no clear statement was made against that, some continued to level by only doing odd levels, therefore escaping the Maw instant-death.
Then, 10 months later, Anet puts a reset on fractal levels, bringing everyone back to 30. This was very badly received by the fractal players, as nothing was offered to compensate for our loss. For months, we were mostly ignored (no answer on many bugs, like harpies going invulnerable, or balance issue, like the dredge spawning tank), and a patch which should have been designed for fractal players was instead hitting us quite badly. Our feedback on this update, and the reset, was also ignored for almost 4 weeks, until Izzy finally said something about it in this thread.

As was said before in the Fractured subforum, as well as here, many of us can understand the developpers seeing a need to do a reset, to put the instabilities in the fractals. But seeing the level we worked for many hours over months vanishing without any form of compensation was a very big blow. And seeing how the Fractured patch changed fractals was another one.

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Posted by: Estriella Faerie.4029

Estriella Faerie.4029

As I said before in this thread, before Fractures, we could dodge agonies, and had ways to go around Maw agony, AR was therefore just a way to help players when they made mistakes. You could go all the way to level 80 with less than 30 AR if you were competent enough. Player skill was the key component of progression, AR being there to help the less skilled progress too (the less skilled you were, the more AR you needed as you made mistakes more often).
It is now different, as Agony on the new maps can’t always be dodged, and some instabilities, like the one every 10 levels, gives you unavoidable agony every 10s. Therefore, player skill has no impact anymore. You either have enough AR to survive, or you don’t. And those instabilities are badly placed too. You need 45 AR to survive at level 40 (50 to not take agony damage). If you have that much AR, there is no more challenge from agony for level 41 to 49… You don’t need to dodge it anymore, you just need to farm for stuff…

To me, as well as many fractals players I talked to, this was a major bad change. We want our skill to be challenged as we progress in levels, not our stuff to be challenged. The people who finished level 50 first were not necessarily the best fractals players, they just were the richest, who spent hundreds of gold to buy AR from the TP. And when we see the time needed to craft infusions, and that you can’t upgrade them once they’re in the gear (therefore requiring the very expensive upgrade extractor from gems)…

Hope this answer your question.

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Posted by: The Lost Witch.7601

The Lost Witch.7601

tl;dr There are too many currencies in game. Make a universal horizontal progression/skin currency used to purchase all skins in game.

I’m sure I’ll have more to add later, but I’m thinking pretty heavily on currency squish atm for ease of horizontal progression, because right now it feels far too painful to even deal with.

There are a few problems with this:

  • If we can get everything by doing one thing, let’s say speedrunning CoF. I believe that players may feel discouraged to do the other, less profitable things in this game. Since they would be less effective at getting to their goal. Unaware of their tunnelvision they might keep doing the most effective thing and get bored and burned out in no-time.
  • Players wouldn’t be able to show off their achievements. (Except perhaps the amount of achievements they’ve gained if some items require a lot of the currency)
  • If you need the same currency for everything, you wouldn’t be feeling the impulse to get something because you already have some of the currency. (Let’s say I have 180 AC tokens, now I might be inclined to get a few more so I can get a weapon.) With just one currency, you are most likely working towards ‘broke’ and then climbing back up. The main choice being: shall I get this now? Or save up for that later?

I think this game needs multiple currencies. The investment required should just not be too high on these currencies, so a journey into a game mode to get a specific item wouldn’t be outrageously time consuming.

And more importantly: the limited currencies should not be the only way to buy stuff that affects your characters combat potential.

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Posted by: cesmode.4257

cesmode.4257

tl;dr There are too many currencies in game. Make a universal horizontal progression/skin currency used to purchase all skins in game.

I’m sure I’ll have more to add later, but I’m thinking pretty heavily on currency squish atm for ease of horizontal progression, because right now it feels far too painful to even deal with.

There are a few problems with this:

  • If we can get everything by doing one thing, let’s say speedrunning CoF. I believe that players may feel discouraged to do the other, less profitable things in this game. Since they would be less effective at getting to their goal. Unaware of their tunnelvision they might keep doing the most effective thing and get bored and burned out in no-time.
  • Players wouldn’t be able to show off their achievements. (Except perhaps the amount of achievements they’ve gained if some items require a lot of the currency)
  • If you need the same currency for everything, you wouldn’t be feeling the impulse to get something because you already have some of the currency. (Let’s say I have 180 AC tokens, now I might be inclined to get a few more so I can get a weapon.) With just one currency, you are most likely working towards ‘broke’ and then climbing back up. The main choice being: shall I get this now? Or save up for that later?

I think this game needs multiple currencies. The investment required should just not be too high on these currencies, so a journey into a game mode to get a specific item wouldn’t be outrageously time consuming.

And more importantly: the limited currencies should not be the only way to buy stuff that affects your characters combat potential.

I have to comment on this. I agree that we need fewer currencies and should rely more on the universal ones, i.e. karma.

I look at a game like Firefall. The world is your oyster in that game. It didn’t matter what content you were doing, you were rewarded the same. Coin, experience, and resources(materials). Go out and do missions, do events, etc etc etc..

For doing a simple small mission such as clearing out a bunker of baddies, I would receive in game coin(gold), experience(which is also used as a currency), and multiple resources(such as various metals, ores, etc…). I could then go to a larger open world event where 10-20 of us are beating down a baddy, and I would receive the same types of rewards, just more of them. After the event is done, I go back to roaming and doing whatever events I came across.

During my travels in the game, not once did I feel like I wasted time or effort. I never felt like I should have been doing something else in order to work toward progress because anything i did rewarded the same three types of currencies.

You then take these currencies and purchase upgrades to your frame(your suit) via experience and resources, and then craft new weapons and gear via resources.

Everything you did rewarded you the same types of stuff, so you never felt like you were wasting time. And there was no efficient route of events because things didn’t kick off in sequence like they do in GW2, which is a DEFINATE area that needs change.

Just my two cents.

Karma is as abundant as air, and as useless as the Kardashians.

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Posted by: Hunter.4783

Hunter.4783

What about Character progression in terms of aesthetics BUT linked to ingame skill.

For example, take ascended armor and introduce 2-3 upgrade tiers to it, similar to the fractal capacitor. This time however have each item require a key component which only drops after a certain lvl of fractals. Have this key mat drop fairly often, but only lets say fractal 40+. The second tier can drop lets say at lvl 80+

This way, whoever is doing fractal lvl 40+ is going to look different from the one running lvl 80+. This way you can show off your progress and dedication without any power creeping

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Posted by: Thelgar.7214

Thelgar.7214

Now my personal issues with the current character progression:

1.) Our personal story progression is meaningless. Choices at the start of character creation are dealt with and have no repercussions once we get to level 30, and the world story does not continue after we killed Zhaitan. Orr remains a mess, and the Orders we joined never call us in for extra missions or additional work. After Zhaitan, we are clueless freelancers. We receive guild commendations from guild missions, you could easily use the same framework for Order missions.

Order missions as a continuance of the personal story are a wonderful idea.

5.) Don’t single-handedly tie things to random drops. Give us more linear progression that might look long and tedious, but also ADD the random element to give us a chance to get where we want faster – but those not having luck still can make their way towards the desired goal. Effort should never be less worth than luck. insert more tokens here. Fractal tokens for ascended rings where a good idea. Further this.

I agree with this as well.

6.) Stop punishing people for not playing your game. Event-specific items which are unavailable any more because they are from achievements no longer obtainable is nothing but infuriating. Make them tradeable, this would solve the entire issue.

I like the thought on this, but rather than making them tradeable (of limited use, as most, if not all achievement items were only one to an account), let us re-play the events via a NPC such as the one you talk to to re-play the final nightmare tower instance to get the achievements and rewards. If not all of them all the time, then at least once a year on the anniversary of the event.

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Posted by: jheryn.8390

jheryn.8390

For my initial two cents on horizontal progression, I agree with those who would like more obtainable skills and traits. Also as mentioned by devs, access to other weapons that a class does not already have in their kitten nal. EDIT: (Really? A…..R……S……E……N…..A…..L is kittenized?)

Another suggestion I have is new zones. Maybe we can unlock new zones to progress forward. When you finish your personal story, you now have a new zone unlocked that cannot be accessed by anyone until they finish their personal story. It would not actually be a progression of the personal story line, but would be incentive to finish it. It would also be a goal for many people. Maybe finishing that new zone could open up another and so on.

While we are on personal story lines, I would like to see them continue. I would like to see that our characters have purpose beyond the end of the Zaihtan story. I’m sure that you all have such things in the works, but after finishing my personal story on a couple of toons, there is no story left. In GW1 having repeatable missions allowed us to feel like we were still involved in the story. Having daily missions for reward also helped with this.

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Posted by: Nike.2631

Nike.2631

Hope this answer your question.

((Solemn nod))

Thank you. It does.

Based on what you’ve told me, I think I’m going to have to start radiating my
‘pitchforks and torches’ buff, because if people were reaching those higher levels by skillful, coordinated play those achievements CANNOT be simply erased or forgotten.

In my MMO experience, there is no joy greater than exceeding Developer expectations. When a encounter is introduced amid fanfare of “this fight is so tough only a full party of the best geared, most skillful players can hope to triumph” I IMEDIATELY start thinking about how to pull it off with, oh let’s say half the expected number of players.

Bring. It. On.

To me that sort of thing is the best kind of test of manhood for the hardcore gamer. Who cares about beating an encounter that’s designed to be beaten. I don’t measure my awesome by winning what’s meant to be won, I measure it be how many times I achieve the impossible. Or at least what the Devs thought was impossible .

And how the Devs respond to that is crucial test of their chops too. If they can suck it up and go “Wow, that is amazing. Well done. We’ll step up our game next time and give you a chance to really shine!” You’re looking at a game you hope thrives for years. And if they get huffy that you didn’t bow down and follow the precise script as they intend it, that you leveraged your abilities in a way they just plain forgot about, you’re looking at a game that is on its way down.

While I see the necessity of a new scale for a new system (the fractals the old ranks were earned in simply do not exist anymore, don’t be fooled that the new and old ones share a numbering scheme), and I regret that the changes mean no one else will ever again have the opportunity to test themselves in that fashion, purely horizontal recognition of that skill and effort can be achieved. Achieved gracefully even.

I don’t think the Guildwars Devs are being huffy – signs are they just wanted to add something more rich and engaging rather than being cranky people trampled their expectations, but completely ignoring the prowess that was on display is wrong.

I will be thinking more on this.

“You keep saying ‘its unfair.’
I wonder what your basis for comparison is…”
- Jareth, King of Goblins.

(edited by Nike.2631)

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Posted by: Ash.2175

Ash.2175

Is it time for horizontal progression now?? (If its not, I apologize for being early but I am going out of town and I might not be able to post this later).

My inspiration came from clearing underworld about a million times in GW1 in order to find rare weapon skins, and being so excited when they finally dropped. The point being that I ran the same instance for probably 1-2 years almost daily and always felt like it was worth it. I would love to see something similar in GW2, but purely with skins instead of stats and instead of in one instance, across the entire world.

So here’s the idea: I think it would be cool if there were skins that dropped in the game. By skins I mean items that are just looks which you apply to your actual armor (like we have now with the LW backpack skins). These skins should have different rarities, similar to armor rarities, and each zone or group of zones (eg. Ascalon, Orr, maguuma jungle…) would have their own skin theme. You would acquire the skins from doing all the major DE chains in the zone groups, from their puzzles, or randomly from drops/chests. So, if I had my eye on a certain set of skins I would have to go out into the world and do things in the different zones to find the armor. As a quick example, there could be like blue tier skins that anyone can get just by doing hearts, green skins from various jumping puzzles, then there’s gold skins from the DE chains, and exotic skins that drop randomly. This also works in WvW, blue from taking camps (or with tokens?), green from towers, gold from keeps, exotic from SM (or in weekly bonus chests). Maybe this can even be expanded to dungeons where dungeon themed skins can drop, but of course we still keep the tokens to get the armor with actual stats.

Also, if we’re worried about Arena Net revenue, you could also introduce these skins into the gem shop so people could just buy them if they wanted, but have some small difference (like a glow effect/color difference) that shows whether you bought it or got it with blood, sweat, and tears out in the wilderness of GW2. This way people who only care about the look, not the prestige of gaining the look, will have an option to obtain the skin, but the people who care about the prestige will be able to show off the fact that they got these items the hard way.

Thoughts/improvements are welcome!

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Posted by: jsduke.6537

jsduke.6537

Hi All,

Here is the next evolution of the original Vertical Progression proposal based on a summary of our discussions:

Regarding Ascended Gear we would like to see more ways to earn it and in terms of drop rates, a higher percentage chance of acquiring them through this method.

A review of current RNG metrics.

The ability to build up to Ascended Gear through drops rather than just relying on RNG.

Just some math-food to help with these considerations:

There are 17 stat combinations for Ascended Armors. The chance that you will get the stat combo you want for your build is about 6% for the first piece. This chance% is compounded for every drop, so the odds of getting a set of ascended gear with the desired stat combo through RNG drops only is:

*1 piece 6%
*2 pieces .36%
*3 pieces .022%
*4 pieces .0013%
*5 pieces .00008%
*6 pieces .000005%

If you are more flexible in the stats you want — say any of 3 complimentary sets — the odds are closer to 18% for the first piece, which still works out to about .0034% for a set of 6 pieces with a random mix of those 3 stat combos.

Factor in drop rate, and the odds that any player will get a desirable set of 6 pieces of armor in their lifetime becomes roughly 0%.

Which leads us to…

The ability to change gear stats (Note there is still a lot of discussion about whether people want this or not)

Yes, I think it’s very important that we be able to change the stats on Ascended gear. It should cost currency each time it’s done, but the currency requirements should not be too punishing if you want players to be able to experiment with builds. Maybe add a vendor NPC that will return Ascended gear to a stat-selectable state for a fee?

This alleviates the pressure to commit to one build, and encourages build experimentation and diversity. It also alleviates the chance% of Ascended RNG drops (above) since now you just need 6 pieces per character, and can select stats for a fee once you have it.

While this does lessen the “specialness” of Legendary gear a bit, Legendary gear still retains unique QoL attributes that maintain it’s status as “top tier gear”.

No more new Gear tiers that make the existing tiers obsolete.

Agreed, though I shy away from saying, “No more new tiers ever.” Perhaps further down the road we may change our minds. I’d like to see the next tier of gear come from “upgrading” existing gear to the new tier, rather than just replacing it with new gear.

Additional ways to earn Ascended Gear at accelerated for Alts.

That would be really nice. I suggested in a comment to Isaiah that we might add an account-bound version of the t7 ascended mats that are not time-gated. 1x tradeable t7 per account per day, unlimited account-bound t7 per day.

Ascended Gear mats dropping more equally across the game, for example WvW.

Yeah, that would be a huge QoL improvement I think. I also really like the idea of “everything drops from everywhere” so that you can get what you need while pursuing the content you enjoy, without pressure to do Jumping Puzzles for Empyreal Frgaments or World Bosses for Dragonite Ore, etc. I’d like to see a shift to “All ascended mats can drop from any source that drops ascended mats”.

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Posted by: Estriella Faerie.4029

Estriella Faerie.4029

I don’t think the Guildwars Devs are being huffy – signs are they just wanted to add something more rich and engaging rather than being cranky people trampled their expectations, but completely ignoring the prowess that was on display is wrong.

As I said, this is one part of the problem for fractals right now: the way the reset was handled.

There’s another one with the way AR is now handled. Instabilities can be nice to play with (there’s some balancing issue though, as some higher level instabilities are way easier than some on lower levels (49 being one of the easiest…)). But the required AR that was put on lvl 40 and 50, as well as some on the new maps, completely change the balance between Skill and Stuff. Those should really be thought again to get back to what fractals were, a challenge to the player skill, not to his stuff. It wouldn’t be that hard to implement. Changing 2 instabilities to other ones, a few maps to tweak to make AR less mandatory (or less AR mandatory), and it would be back to being great.

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Posted by: FeveredDreamer.2693

FeveredDreamer.2693

You are talking like Vertical Progression is the next bad thing after meteor shower! And why is it so bad? Why do you think that Horizontal Progression is vastly superior to it? You’re not playing an ordinary game. You’re playing an MMO game. And that’s the kind game of game that grows vertically and endlessly (or to the moment when people stops playing it) whether you like or not. And characters should grow with it.

I’m not sure why you seem to think horizontal progression results in no character growth.

Regardless, I’m not playing just any MMO game. I’m playing an MMO that promised a vertical stat progression cap and horizontal progression and rewards. Cosmetics, new traits, new skills, new weapons, new ways to use those skills, new character-based areas to grow such as housing – all of this was on the cards. But I’m sure we’ll come onto that once the discussion moves on.

I wanted to reiterate this point since I’m not really sure of the value of +1 in the forum system. This is pretty critical and I think a huge part of why people were so upset throughout the entirety of the ascended launch. Certainly there are some who never heard of GW2 and just picked it up in the store. Yet there are also those who picked this game up precisely because it wasn’t meant to be the same as every other MMO, I bought GW2 not only because I thought that the game would be awesome but also in an attempt to show support for a company that theoretically dared to do something different with my hobby.

Years ago (and compounded with WoW) we were fed this idea that if you want to be an MMO player you have to spend your life in game constantly on the treadmill of vertical progression. There are dozens of games perpetuating this model, and if folks wanted to play them, they would be doing so. When I recommended this game to my friends who hadn’t heard it, I recommended it to them on the basis that it’d be different from the standard MMO loot chase.

In particular this line:

You’re playing an MMO game. And that’s the kind game of game that grows vertically and endlessly (or to the moment when people stops playing it) whether you like or not.

I don’t agree with that being the “definition” of an MMO, I play an MMO to (among other reasons) have an ongoing online environment to explore and enjoy with friends (and enemies). Endless vertical progression plays 0 role in my definition of an MMO and maybe it is worth considering that (even though everyone hates those old dev comments being brought up) the idea of not having endless vertical progression (particularly tied to gear) is actually interesting to some of the player base.

I’m not playing WoW, I’m not playing Everquest (though maybe EQNext) there’s a reason for that. GW2 isn’t and shouldn’t endeavor to be just another MMO.

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Posted by: cesmode.4257

cesmode.4257

You are talking like Vertical Progression is the next bad thing after meteor shower! And why is it so bad? Why do you think that Horizontal Progression is vastly superior to it? You’re not playing an ordinary game. You’re playing an MMO game. And that’s the kind game of game that grows vertically and endlessly (or to the moment when people stops playing it) whether you like or not. And characters should grow with it.

I’m not sure why you seem to think horizontal progression results in no character growth.

Regardless, I’m not playing just any MMO game. I’m playing an MMO that promised a vertical stat progression cap and horizontal progression and rewards. Cosmetics, new traits, new skills, new weapons, new ways to use those skills, new character-based areas to grow such as housing – all of this was on the cards. But I’m sure we’ll come onto that once the discussion moves on.

I wanted to reiterate this point since I’m not really sure of the value of +1 in the forum system. This is pretty critical and I think a huge part of why people were so upset throughout the entirety of the ascended launch. Certainly there are some who never heard of GW2 and just picked it up in the store. Yet there are also those who picked this game up precisely because it wasn’t meant to be the same as every other MMO, I bought GW2 not only because I thought that the game would be awesome but also in an attempt to show support for a company that theoretically dared to do something different with my hobby.

Years ago (and compounded with WoW) we were fed this idea that if you want to be an MMO player you have to spend your life in game constantly on the treadmill of vertical progression. There are dozens of games perpetuating this model, and if folks wanted to play them, they would be doing so. When I recommended this game to my friends who hadn’t heard it, I recommended it to them on the basis that it’d be different from the standard MMO loot chase.

In particular this line:

You’re playing an MMO game. And that’s the kind game of game that grows vertically and endlessly (or to the moment when people stops playing it) whether you like or not.

I don’t agree with that being the “definition” of an MMO, I play an MMO to (among other reasons) have an ongoing online environment to explore and enjoy with friends (and enemies). Endless vertical progression plays 0 role in my definition of an MMO and maybe it is worth considering that (even though everyone hates those old dev comments being brought up) the idea of not having endless vertical progression (particularly tied to gear) is actually interesting to some of the player base.

I’m not playing WoW, I’m not playing Everquest (though maybe EQNext) there’s a reason for that. GW2 isn’t and shouldn’t endeavor to be just another MMO.

To take something from EQ Next(which looks to be amazing), and I have suggested this in the thread already but I want to re-iterate: discovering classes out in the world. In EQN you pick a class archetype, say a mage/wizard/elementalist caster type. You are playing the game and discover, through some method I dont know how(it could be as simple as finding it at the end of a cave in a chest), a new class such as a Monk for example. You can ‘consume it’, and now use your wizard spells and monk spells on the same hotbar…you make your own class. Horizontally.

Something similar can take form in GW2. If not in the form of complete classes, then finding skills and abilities specifically for your class. If I am in Iron Marches doing an event, I could find or be rewarded an ability specific to the class I am playing. Double click to consume and I can now use it.

This would be good beans.

Karma is as abundant as air, and as useless as the Kardashians.

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Posted by: Patrikan Habaton.2548

Patrikan Habaton.2548

Hi Chris,

Short reminder: Fractals reset?

Hi Chris,

please ignore this stupid, non-constructive remark.

Why the sudden upswing in volunteer moderation in this thread? Not just this post, there have been a couple lately.

And as a purely objective critique, how is this remark stupid? It was a topic in this thread in the past and our resident Dev-host indicated he was still thinking about it.

To those who are curious about that bit of cogitation, consider:

Fractal reward levels are actually horizontal progression (not vertical). They don’t give you ANY mechanical advantage outside of the fractals themselves. Unlocking level 50 doesn’t give you new skills or new buffs. The Ascended Gear can be earned without ever pushing deeper than LEVEL 1 (does progress get an ‘flatter’ than this? I mean really…).

So, please, just stand-by.

When we get into discussion horizontal progression, part of it will HAVE TO BE talking terms about some of the “soft” progressions. Is your increasing Luck/Magic Find a vertical progression? I personally don’t think so. If it’s possible for a number on your character sheet to go up, but for that to track horizontal progression (like ‘Luck’) then a number like “fractal reward level” has to be viewed as tracking a non-vertical progression also… and is about to become very topical to this thread.

I would agree. I understand why people were irate about being reset. But in the grand scheme of things, does it matter? Level 30, level 50…who cares? Lvl 50 gives you a slightly better chance at ascended stuff maybe? And an excuse to beat your chest a little harder than the guy at 30, or 20.

Eh, I just don’t see the big deal about being reset down to 30. You aren’t losing anything, just a number corresponding to level, which roughly content remains the same through the levels.

I lost Level 81. I lost 51 scales. I lost hudge ammounts of Karma I don’t get while playing fractals wich are worth more now after Karma reset. I lost the Chance of getting for 100% a Skin or a ring at daily chest if I had enough ar to complete 80 again. And most importanly I lost time… time is the key Thing here if your time spent gets reseted you feel angry about it no matter if you lost 200 hours for farming a legendary and the legendary gets deleted or you loose 200 hours for playing fractals and your Level gets deleted.

first scale 81 fractals

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Posted by: Nike.2631

Nike.2631

But the required AR that was put on lvl 40 and 50, as well as some on the new maps, completely change the balance between Skill and Stuff. Those should really be thought again to get back to what fractals were, a challenge to the player skill, not to his stuff. It wouldn’t be that hard to implement. Changing 2 instabilities to other ones, a few maps to tweak to make AR less mandatory (or less AR mandatory), and it would be back to being great.

I think that may be getting a bit far afield for this thread, but I’m glad the devs will essentially be forced to read it – I agree its a thought that needs to be in their heads .

(Not knocking the importance at all, I just doubt the right Devs to act on it are following this topic line)

I’m almost done scripting up a recognition scheme for the Fractals old and new that I think will interest you. Please watch for it .

I lost Level 81. I lost 51 scales. I lost hudge ammounts of Karma I don’t get while playing fractals wich are worth more now after Karma reset. I lost the Chance of getting for 100% a Skin or a ring at daily chest if I had enough ar to complete 80 again. And most importanly I lost time… time is the key Thing here if your time spent gets reseted you feel angry about it no matter if you lost 200 hours for farming a legendary and the legendary gets deleted or you loose 200 hours for playing fractals and your Level gets deleted.

I caught this just as I was about to go off and script something. I’ hope you’ll review it when its done, and I may have some questions for you, because you just mentioned a couple things about high fractal rewards levels I didn’t know about, and my scheme may not be scratching certain itches as well as I first thought it might. It’ll be a few minutes, so if you’re gone when it does get posted I hope you’ll check for it when you come back .

“You keep saying ‘its unfair.’
I wonder what your basis for comparison is…”
- Jareth, King of Goblins.

(edited by Nike.2631)

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Posted by: cesmode.4257

cesmode.4257

Hi Chris,

Short reminder: Fractals reset?

Hi Chris,

please ignore this stupid, non-constructive remark.

Why the sudden upswing in volunteer moderation in this thread? Not just this post, there have been a couple lately.

And as a purely objective critique, how is this remark stupid? It was a topic in this thread in the past and our resident Dev-host indicated he was still thinking about it.

To those who are curious about that bit of cogitation, consider:

Fractal reward levels are actually horizontal progression (not vertical). They don’t give you ANY mechanical advantage outside of the fractals themselves. Unlocking level 50 doesn’t give you new skills or new buffs. The Ascended Gear can be earned without ever pushing deeper than LEVEL 1 (does progress get an ‘flatter’ than this? I mean really…).

So, please, just stand-by.

When we get into discussion horizontal progression, part of it will HAVE TO BE talking terms about some of the “soft” progressions. Is your increasing Luck/Magic Find a vertical progression? I personally don’t think so. If it’s possible for a number on your character sheet to go up, but for that to track horizontal progression (like ‘Luck’) then a number like “fractal reward level” has to be viewed as tracking a non-vertical progression also… and is about to become very topical to this thread.

I would agree. I understand why people were irate about being reset. But in the grand scheme of things, does it matter? Level 30, level 50…who cares? Lvl 50 gives you a slightly better chance at ascended stuff maybe? And an excuse to beat your chest a little harder than the guy at 30, or 20.

Eh, I just don’t see the big deal about being reset down to 30. You aren’t losing anything, just a number corresponding to level, which roughly content remains the same through the levels.

I lost Level 81. I lost 51 scales. I lost hudge ammounts of Karma I don’t get while playing fractals wich are worth more now after Karma reset. I lost the Chance of getting for 100% a Skin or a ring at daily chest if I had enough ar to complete 80 again. And most importanly I lost time… time is the key Thing here if your time spent gets reseted you feel angry about it no matter if you lost 200 hours for farming a legendary and the legendary gets deleted or you loose 200 hours for playing fractals and your Level gets deleted.

True and I can understand that. But the ultimately, its the same stuff, no? The karma reward from level 81 to 30 is not a 1000 karma spread or something. Curious, what was it at 81? Also, I would notion that queensdale champ farm is the most efficient method of karma farming. Anyways…besides the point.

My point is, level 30 or 80, what is different in reward? A little karma? A bit more change to get ascended skins or whatever?

Yes you lost the levels and while it may seem like you lost the time spent between 30 and 81, were you not playing the game then? Did you not record those experiences in your brain? This is a game, after all, and playing it should be fun. I reckon that you had fun during your trek to 80 (hopefully) and those experiences stay with you. You just get to do it again.

On the surface it looks bad, but really all you lost was a level number, and the ability to get a bit more karma than the rest of us. You still had the same ‘fun’ gameplay experience as the rest of us, and that won’t change when doing it all over again. It’ll be the same experience..and it will continue to be the same experience when youre at the level cap again.

Edit: if you could tell us what the rewards were like up on lvl 81 mountain, that could help sway my position.

Karma is as abundant as air, and as useless as the Kardashians.

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Posted by: Inspired.6730

Inspired.6730

With fractured what was really removed was content. The fractal levels over 30 that had existed over 30 were removed from the game. And while this is definitely something to complain about, it is not first time its been an issue with GW2.

Content removal is not the same as progress removal which this is presented as by those who were most affected. Fractal level was always presented as simply a measure of the highest level fractal that a given player had access to. When the higher fractals were removed their levels were reset to the highest newly existing fractal they had done.

Nothing was lost because their access level changed to 30. However, they lost what was a lot to many because content they previously liked doing was removed from the game. Big difference, but that doesn’t mean it matters to those affected.

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Posted by: Iason Evan.3806

Iason Evan.3806

I lost Level 81. I lost 51 scales. I lost hudge ammounts of Karma I don’t get while playing fractals wich are worth more now after Karma reset. I lost the Chance of getting for 100% a Skin or a ring at daily chest if I had enough ar to complete 80 again. And most importanly I lost time… time is the key Thing here if your time spent gets reseted you feel angry about it no matter if you lost 200 hours for farming a legendary and the legendary gets deleted or you loose 200 hours for playing fractals and your Level gets deleted.[/quote]

I have seen you post this same thing over and over again. They get it Patrikan. I get it. We all get it. Communicating something 50 times doesn’t make it any more clear. It’s time to realize that we know how you feel about it and whether or not anything is done about it at this point is not up to you anymore. It stinks, but it’s time to stop posting about this.

Leader of The Guernsey Milking Coalition [MiLk] Sanctum of Rall

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Posted by: Estriella Faerie.4029

Estriella Faerie.4029

But the required AR that was put on lvl 40 and 50, as well as some on the new maps, completely change the balance between Skill and Stuff. Those should really be thought again to get back to what fractals were, a challenge to the player skill, not to his stuff. It wouldn’t be that hard to implement. Changing 2 instabilities to other ones, a few maps to tweak to make AR less mandatory (or less AR mandatory), and it would be back to being great.

I think that may be getting a bit far afield for this thread, but I’m glad the devs will essentially be forced to read it – I agree its a thought that needs to be in their heads .

(Not knocking the importance at all, I just doubt the right Devs to act on it are following this topic line)

I don’t think it is that far from the topic. It is completely a discussion on vertical progression on stuff (AR), and how it is at the moment mandatory for progression (in fractals) while it wasn’t that much before, and how we want it to change.

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Posted by: cesmode.4257

cesmode.4257

With fractured what was really removed was content. The fractal levels over 30 that had existed over 30 were removed from the game. And while this is definitely something to complain about, it is not first time its been an issue with GW2.

The levels werent removed from the game. They are still there. And levels aren’t content. Its a number. You can still progress in levels. But, for example, level 42 was not removed from the game…its there.

Karma is as abundant as air, and as useless as the Kardashians.

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Posted by: TheDaiBish.9735

TheDaiBish.9735

With fractured what was really removed was content. The fractal levels over 30 that had existed over 30 were removed from the game. And while this is definitely something to complain about, it is not first time its been an issue with GW2.

Content removal is not the same as progress removal which this is presented as by those who were most affected. Fractal level was always presented as simply a measure of the highest level fractal that a given player had access to. When the higher fractals were removed their levels were reset to the highest newly existing fractal they had done.

Nothing was lost because their access level changed to 30. However, they lost what was a lot to many because content they previously liked doing was removed from the game. Big difference, but that doesn’t mean it matters to those affected.

What content was removed? The content is still there to do, and mechanics were added to them after 30. Nothing was ‘removed’, simply ‘added to’ or ‘changed’.

Life is a journey.
Time is a river.
The door is ajar.

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Posted by: cesmode.4257

cesmode.4257

I don’t see the allure to level up to, say, 50 in fractals. Do you folks find large amounts of profit up there? I am sitting at 29, and I will probably only go to about 40 or so. I like the PVE challenge, because other than Tequatl, and a few explorable paths, theres not alot of challenging PVE content in the game. And I think 40 is a reasonable number to get to, and the risk vs reward probably levels off at some point.

The only reason I see people going much higher is for vanity, and because they just like going higher and higher in fractals. I cannot see fractals as a reliable method of earning karma and coin, in the scheme of a risk vs reward vs time…

I can probably earn as much karma in the queensdale champ train stress free drinking a beer and auto attacking.

Karma is as abundant as air, and as useless as the Kardashians.

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Posted by: Nike.2631

Nike.2631

DESSA’S CHAMPIONS: FOR SERVICES RENDERED!
This is a proposal for recognition of the creativity and skill displayed in assisting Dessa’ investigations into the Fractals of the Mist above and beyond what had at first appeared possible.

Three important considerations: First while I realize that there must be players out there with multiple characters at extraordinary Fractal Rewards levels, this proposal is based on a single reward set by your highest level. I realize this cheapens some of your effort, but I feel it is necessary to put this sort of cap on the levels being considered in light of what you would be receiving. Second, many of these rewards represent a ‘head start’ more than an eternal divide between those who entered the deepest fractals early and those who pit themselves against them now. Some of these rewards involve considerable expenditure of Development time and that time cannot be justified as a one-time expense. It must promote gameplay both past and future. Finally, the rewards are presented in three parts. If one section looks meaninglessly small or overwhelmingly good, try to appreciate the combined effect.

Level by Level
The first reward is that for each and every level you achieved from 31 on, you will be mailed a + 2 agony resistance infusion (maximum of 50 infusions for reaching level 80). It is important that these rewards differentiate between even so small a difference as players who reached level 43 vs. those who reached level 44. Also, please recognize that while you could sell these infusions, they are given in the spirit of invitation: you triumphed over the Fractals of the Mist in the past, please come back and show your power in the face of the new challenges.
The second half of the level-by-level reward is a progressive gift of karma. You will be mailed liquid karma equivalent to your highest pre-Fractured fractal rewards level squared x 100. This would amount to 96,100 karma for level 31 all the way up to 640,000 for those who reached level 80.

Shinies!
If your former Fractal Rewards Level reached the threshold’s of 35|45|55|65|75 you will be mailed a special chest for each of those thresholds (maximum of 5 chests at level 75). Each of those chests when opened will allow you to chose a single account bound “Advanced Fractal Weapon” skin of the weapon type of your choice. These skins are based on the existing Fractal Weapons but feature additional FX. While these skins will become available through playing Fractals level 51 and up in the future, for the moment you will be the only players in the game who have access to them and you WILL receive the specific weapons you crave most. Others will one day match your glory, but for now it’s all you.

Do you know who I am?
If your former Fractal Rewards Level reached the threshold’s of 40|50|60|70|80, you will gain account-wide access to new titles. These titles will also be available to those who reach levels 40 and 50 in the new fractals, but the 60th, 70th, and 80th level titles will be unique to you until such time as higher level fractals are re-introduced.

Level 40: “Knight of Broken Mirrors” title
Level 50: “Dessa’s Champion” title
Level 60: “Lord of Broken Mirrors” title
Level 70: “Stabilize this!” title
Level 80: “The Jadebreaker” title

“You keep saying ‘its unfair.’
I wonder what your basis for comparison is…”
- Jareth, King of Goblins.

(edited by Nike.2631)

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Posted by: Estriella Faerie.4029

Estriella Faerie.4029

DESSA’S CHAMPIONS: FOR SERVICES RENDERED!
This is a proposal for recognition of the creativity and skill displayed in assisting Dessa’ investigations into the Fractals of the Mist above and beyond what had at first appeared possible.

That would be a nice way to resolve the issues many fractal players have with the reset.
Talking about your three parts now:

“Do you know who I am” is I think the easiest of all to implement, and would be really nice.

“Shinies” would need more time for the developers. It would be pretty good, and would let high level players get something to show their dedication to this area of the game. Fractal weapons were a bit doing that before, but given how RNG based they were, and the fact they can now drop at level 10, the “prestige” of fractal weapons is mostly gone, so a higher grade of the weapon could be nice.

“Level by level”: I’m pretty much against that. We don’t need more AR, we need AR to be given less of an impact in the game than what Fractured made, to get back to a system where the skill of the player is what matters, and not only his stuff. See my previous post about that.

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Posted by: Astral Projections.7320

Astral Projections.7320

I think it wouldn’t hurt to bring back the guild wars 1 book system for the DEs.

Each map has a book available for it from an NPC. Inside each book is a list of each DE for that area. People take these books, do DEs and turn the full or partially filled books in for money and karma, maybe laurels, and  progress towards a new skin for gear or progress towards a piece of ascended armor. Perhaps an NPC can carry one of each type of armor and weapons. When X number of points/tokens/laurels are reached from turning in books, a player can choose an item from the NPC.  The more of the book that is filled in, the better the rewards are.

To keep people from repeatedly doing the starter maps, add a new daily. This daily would be to do X number of events in X  level map, such as do X events in a level 60-70 map. Using levels instead of particular maps would help to keep the people from zerging the events and spread them out. 

This would allow people to work on filling out the books at their own rate. They can do the maps on the days it is on the daily or do it on their own on other days. If there is a bonus to turning a filled book in on the day of the daily, they can fill it up over time and hold on to it and turn it in when done and on that daily. They can carry multiple copies of one book if they want to repeat events to fill books up.

The book system would have several advantages. 
1) pull people out of the starter zones and into higher level maps.
2) get people doing DEs they haven’t done before
3) keep them from farming the same event over and over to fill a book as the book only counts one per book. 
4) if they have multiple copies of a book, they can redo events to fill one page of each book they have. 
5) the Devs don’t have to rework the rewards of all the events, it can be done with the rewards a filled book gives. 
6) if filled books give better rewards, then this would encourage people group up to do the group events that are ignored now. 
7) it would give people another way to get ascended gear, by playing the game. 

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Posted by: Inspired.6730

Inspired.6730

With fractured what was really removed was content. The fractal levels over 30 that had existed over 30 were removed from the game. And while this is definitely something to complain about, it is not first time its been an issue with GW2.

The levels werent removed from the game. They are still there. And levels aren’t content. Its a number. You can still progress in levels. But, for example, level 42 was not removed from the game…its there.

The levels that had existed were removed. Yes they added new higher level ones, but they are not the same as the ones they removed. They just reused the level numbers and thus the required reset. The old level 42 and the new level 42 are not the same. And levels over 50 were removed and not even replaced with anything new.

The way I always saw each fractal level was more as the name of that particular dungeon, so fractal level 42 was a specific dungeon. I guess not everyone saw it that way.

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Posted by: FeveredDreamer.2693

FeveredDreamer.2693

To take something from EQ Next(which looks to be amazing), and I have suggested this in the thread already but I want to re-iterate: discovering classes out in the world. In EQN you pick a class archetype, say a mage/wizard/elementalist caster type. You are playing the game and discover, through some method I dont know how(it could be as simple as finding it at the end of a cave in a chest), a new class such as a Monk for example. You can ‘consume it’, and now use your wizard spells and monk spells on the same hotbar…you make your own class. Horizontally.

Something similar can take form in GW2. If not in the form of complete classes, then finding skills and abilities specifically for your class. If I am in Iron Marches doing an event, I could find or be rewarded an ability specific to the class I am playing. Double click to consume and I can now use it.

This would be good beans.

Two of the things that have me most excited about EQNext are the same things that brought me to GW2. The promise of a living changing world that players can actually impact and the promise of deep horizontal progression over the standard vertical business. I’m doing my best not to get too hyped about EQNext as it is nowhere close to release, but I’m also hoping that GW2 continues to work on so many of these ideas that offered something genuinely new and fresh to the genre.

People have made some awesome suggestions in this thread, from Chris’ suggestion of vertical character (rather than gear) progression through skills to the continued urging of separating appearance from stats (skin locker) there are many ideas for pushing GW2 in what I consider to be the right direction. Ideas folks have expressed about prestige classes, specialization or anything else to separate vertical progression from the gear ladder are great and I hope some thought is put into what the value of perpetual loot-chase really is. I’m super-excited about the CDI but I also am way more “wait and see” than I once was, a game’s direction is a big deal and at the moment I’m still not so sure where GW2 is headed in the future.

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Posted by: Khunvyel.3972

Khunvyel.3972

Trying to catch the few things addressed directly at me;

About Order Missions;
I didn’t elaborate on it because of limited character space and wanting to see how people react to it. These missions should be themed accordingly. You get stealth, reconnaissance, sabotage, etc. missions for Whispers, you get up front beating things down BUT ALSO defending & escorting things straight up as Vigil, and you get to research stuff / test stuff / acquire stuff for the previous two as Priory.
These missions should vary between instanced and open world. The open world stuff could easily work like the hearts. Just do your job until a satisfactory bar has been reached. The instanced mode would and should scale up according to the people that are with you on that mission. They don’t need to necessarily be in the same Order, just your team helping you out. Group size scaling should work into the mission objectives.
This opens up more achievement sections, and rewards would be tokens which you can trade in for new skins or existing ones of the Order if you don’t want to spend the gold on those. And all that other good stuff available for Tokens, the game has plenty of possibilities what to do anyway.

About cultural armor should be exotic, not rare:
Just look at exotic karma gear which is dirt cheap in comparison to cultural T3 armor. Karma is essentially worthless. Still, Karma gear is exotic, and doing a braindead group event to get there, is not a challenge in itself.

...Would you be satisfied if the Cultural armor and weapon vendors sold only cosmetic skins that were click-to-apply and had no stats whatsoever?

Absolutely. Either make T3 exotic (note, I am only talking about T3 because this is max level. T2 and T1 are not, thus they can stay as they are) or make cultural armor simply skins.

The Devs have clearly expressed a concern that Exotic-grade gear proved too easily acquired. If making the Tier 3 cultural gear Exotic-grade is an _absolute non-starter_ of an idea because it would just make a bad situation worse...

Why? T3 cultural armor is already more expensive than any set of exotic level80 gear so I don’t see where you are coming from.
In my opinion, this expression of the Developers isn’t helping the game at all because it is simply promoting gear treadmill progression. It shouldn’t be that you get kicked out from a dungeon because you are trying to run it to ACQUIRE exotic gear for tokens, yet exactly this is happening. The relatively easy availability of exotics is not detrimental to the game because 1) you are more prone to get more sets because you want to play different builds, which leads to gem purchase for inventory slots and 2) this means you are more useful and diverse a player to begin with and 3) if people have their top-gear, they can look for actual challenge. Gear treadmills are just one reason of not putting out meaningful and interesting content because you just gate it with stats.

About grouped activities / Kegbrawl championship example:
This is not about who drinks more, but which team wins. Essentially, Kegbrawl is pvp but in a different environment. We can go to tournaments in the mists with a prefab group. We cannot do that in Kegbrawl, so that is all I am asking for. And then I just want to have a jumping good time in Wintersday or Halloween Clocktower with my friends but I can’t. The list continues.

About achievement points:
Yes, my proposal was either limit earned achievement points from dailies to 5 (just for the chest with the laurel) so you can actually CHOOSE what you want to do which frees up valuable time elsewhere, or get rid of these points for such a meager thing as dailies entirely. We have many so called achievements which are not even worth the notion of that title. Kill 1000 whatever with a specific weapon? Where is the achievement in that? This is nothing to work for. It just happens in time. To quote Colin Johanson in a slightly sarcastic way; "I swung a sword, I swung a sword again, hey I swung it again! that’s great..."
Is it?

Animaniak (top 5 EU achievement leaderbord) is in the same guild as me, and I can tell you one thing; this isn’t fun stuff to witness. He has a regular job and regular life and still is capable of pulling off this stunt. If achievements where more meaningful and less arbitrary, hunting these points would be a lot more fun. And that is ultimately what a game is about. Having fun, and everyone has their own view on it but I can tell for certain: MEANINGLESS achievements to grind for, isn’t fun.
Don’t get me wrong, I love the idea that you actually get something for your points now, it is wonderful, it is great. But not when they try to instil this "you have to spend more time in our game so we make more points happen", which there is ample suggestive evidence that they try to.

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Posted by: cesmode.4257

cesmode.4257

With fractured what was really removed was content. The fractal levels over 30 that had existed over 30 were removed from the game. And while this is definitely something to complain about, it is not first time its been an issue with GW2.

The levels werent removed from the game. They are still there. And levels aren’t content. Its a number. You can still progress in levels. But, for example, level 42 was not removed from the game…its there.

The levels that had existed were removed. Yes they added new higher level ones, but they are not the same as the ones they removed. They just reused the level numbers and thus the required reset. The old level 42 and the new level 42 are not the same. And levels over 50 were removed and not even replaced with anything new.

The way I always saw each fractal level was more as the name of that particular dungeon, so fractal level 42 was a specific dungeon. I guess not everyone saw it that way.

How are they not the same? You still receive 3 fractals and now a bonus fractal regardless, from the same pool of fractals. Infact, they have added fractals. The content is the same. Content != difficulty/levels.

Karma is as abundant as air, and as useless as the Kardashians.

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Posted by: LanfearShadowflame.3189

LanfearShadowflame.3189

I think it wouldn’t hurt to bring back the guild wars 1 book system for the DEs.

Each map has a book available for it from an NPC. Inside each book is a list of each DE for that area. People take these books, do DEs and turn the full or partially filled books in for money and karma, maybe laurels, and  progress towards a new skin for gear or progress towards a piece of ascended armor. Perhaps an NPC can carry one of each type of armor and weapons. When X number of points/tokens/laurels are reached from turning in books, a player can choose an item from the NPC.  The more of the book that is filled in, the better the rewards are.
-snip-

I like this general idea. They could apply this to dungeons as well.

A dungeon guide book to complete as they run the various paths. This could reward the bearer a certain number of dungeon tokens (perhaps of the bearer’s choice?) and some money.

Additionally, I had considered adding ascended armor boxes and weapons to dungeon merchants. Then people that liked dungeoning could then work towards the gear that way, by playing what they enjoy playing.

I specifically note an armor ‘box’ simply due to my feeling that being able to purchase the gear piecemeal with various tokens would speed the process up too much and potential make it ‘too easy.’ Having to purchase the entire set with a single token type requires a little more focus and effort, imo.

There are gaps in my thought process, but it’s a start.

Don’t look at me like that. Whatever you’ve heard, it’s probably not true.

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Posted by: Overkillengine.6084

Overkillengine.6084

I’d like to chime in with some thoughts about how GW2’s current progression systems have pushed me away from the game. Before GW2 came out I was super ultra hyped for it, and the first few weeks I played something like 6-8 hours per day. Then I started to realize the implications of some of the mechanics like transmutation, and it dropped to 3-4 hours. Then Ascended gear showed up, and it dropped to 1-2 hours. Now I log in for a couple hours a month (except when Super Adventure Box is around — then it’s back up to 4-8 hours/day).

My core issue with the progression systems in this game is that I don’t like throwing the results of my hard work away. Let’s take an example: suppose I decided to bite the bullet and slog through the 4 months of grind it would probably take me to assemble a full Berserker’s ascended set with a set of skins I liked for my Elementalist.

Now, suppose I wanted a different skin. If I want to keep my stats, my choices are to go through another 4 months of grinding to generate a completely new set, destroy all my old skins that I worked so hard for, or pay nearly $20 in gems to buy transmutation splitters. That’s kind of demoralizing.

Suppose I want different stats (e.g. Soldiers, or some new stat combo)? Same problem, but worse. Another 3 months of grind, followed by the choice of either throwing away the months I spent grinding the Berserkers’ stats, a month grinding out fresh copies of the skins (which isn’t always even possible, since some skins are limited-time-only), or another $20 down the hole.

Suppose I decide my Mesmer is my new main and I don’t want to play Elementalist any more? Everything I strived for on my Elementalist is now meaningless, and it’s yet another four long months before I’ve repaired the damage I’ve done to my progression by daring to play another of the 8 professions.

Just thinking about all the ways my invested time could be so easily be thrown down the drain makes me tired and not want to play the game. I don’t want everything handed to me on a silver platter, but I’d also prefer if my hard work wasn’t invalidated every time I want to change things up and get a little variety in my gameplay. So how could things be better?

My suggestion is to make soulbinding an item unlock its stats and skin for your account. Then repurpose transmutation crystals to be a reagent for reconfiguring the stats/skin on a piece of gear to anything you’ve previously unlocked.

Then I could craft a full set of ascended gear for one character, and a full set for a different character with a different set of stats, and benefit from both. Rather than accelerating the process for alts, this would make repeating the process more meaningful and less of a chore, because you’d be benefitting your existing characters by unlocking a new stat combo, and benefiting each successive alt more by opening them up to a wider and wider pool of choices.

I think this would change the mode of progression for many players from “one and done” or “not even gonna bother” to “gotta catch ’em all”, which is probably healthier for the game long-term.

It would also define a very fun and useful niche for Legendary items. Equipping a Legendary unlocks a unique skin along with all Ascended stat combinations for that slot, and allows you to freely swap skins and stats for that piece on that character forever.

This. CoH did account based skin unlocks for the most part and I could not throw my money at them fast enough!

Why? Fair value for the price, and I could use each costume piece as I saw fit whenever I wanted after unlocking it; no muss, no fuss. I even bought skins I never got around to using; but I HAD them available and ready to rock the moment I had a character concept. And some were even still able to be earned in game (in a non months of tedium based time-frame) if I wanted to take that route instead.

The current skin system is an atrocious mess of nickle and dime attempts for things worth maybe pennies in value at best that makes me walk away from the transaction table entirely in disgust.

Want my money? Upgrade your service offerings. And upgrading your system to account for stat arrays on gear in a similar way would help a lot too; right now the time-gated grind is so immense that it makes me not want to even bother.

Yes yes, other games have done the classic monetizations to death in order to profit….but here’s a big hint: this is GW2. Not WoW. Not Maplestory. Not generic tired MMO X. Freaking GW2!

Start designing for it instead of importing systems from MMO’s that we have fled from for a reason.

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Posted by: Lilith Ajit.6173

Lilith Ajit.6173

With fractured what was really removed was content. The fractal levels over 30 that had existed over 30 were removed from the game. And while this is definitely something to complain about, it is not first time its been an issue with GW2.

The levels werent removed from the game. They are still there. And levels aren’t content. Its a number. You can still progress in levels. But, for example, level 42 was not removed from the game…its there.

The levels that had existed were removed. Yes they added new higher level ones, but they are not the same as the ones they removed. They just reused the level numbers and thus the required reset. The old level 42 and the new level 42 are not the same. And levels over 50 were removed and not even replaced with anything new.

The way I always saw each fractal level was more as the name of that particular dungeon, so fractal level 42 was a specific dungeon. I guess not everyone saw it that way.

How are they not the same? You still receive 3 fractals and now a bonus fractal regardless, from the same pool of fractals. Infact, they have added fractals. The content is the same. Content != difficulty/levels.

As this is something that we have already discussed and argued about at length can we talk about this later, when Chris has an idea about what he thinks about it?

I just don’t think this is the time or place to argue about this.

[ARES]
And all who stood by and did nothing, who are they to criticize the sacrifices of others?
Our blood has bought their lives.

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Posted by: cesmode.4257

cesmode.4257

To take something from EQ Next(which looks to be amazing), and I have suggested this in the thread already but I want to re-iterate: discovering classes out in the world. In EQN you pick a class archetype, say a mage/wizard/elementalist caster type. You are playing the game and discover, through some method I dont know how(it could be as simple as finding it at the end of a cave in a chest), a new class such as a Monk for example. You can ‘consume it’, and now use your wizard spells and monk spells on the same hotbar…you make your own class. Horizontally.

Something similar can take form in GW2. If not in the form of complete classes, then finding skills and abilities specifically for your class. If I am in Iron Marches doing an event, I could find or be rewarded an ability specific to the class I am playing. Double click to consume and I can now use it.

This would be good beans.

Two of the things that have me most excited about EQNext are the same things that brought me to GW2. The promise of a living changing world that players can actually impact and the promise of deep horizontal progression over the standard vertical business. I’m doing my best not to get too hyped about EQNext as it is nowhere close to release, but I’m also hoping that GW2 continues to work on so many of these ideas that offered something genuinely new and fresh to the genre.

People have made some awesome suggestions in this thread, from Chris’ suggestion of vertical character (rather than gear) progression through skills to the continued urging of separating appearance from stats (skin locker) there are many ideas for pushing GW2 in what I consider to be the right direction. Ideas folks have expressed about prestige classes, specialization or anything else to separate vertical progression from the gear ladder are great and I hope some thought is put into what the value of perpetual loot-chase really is. I’m super-excited about the CDI but I also am way more “wait and see” than I once was, a game’s direction is a big deal and at the moment I’m still not so sure where GW2 is headed in the future.

I feel the same way for the most part. And honestly, anything that comes about from the CDI probably won’t make it into game for a few months. Id guess that at earliest, 3-4 months before we see the big changes… By that time I might have moved on. Fantastic games are on the horizon with early 2014 releases, like Wildstar. While I am enjoying GW2 again and still ‘progressing’ in my own little way, its likely I won’t see the fruits of our labor here in these threads to fruition before I make the decision to leave the game. Im patient, but a lot of these suggestions and changes aren’t hard to see before you impliment, and should have been thought of before hand. So, we are 1+ yr into release, add a few more months, and I’ll probably be tired of waiting for positive change to the elements of the game. It’ll be time for something new.

With that said, I think it says something to my devotion of this game where I am trying to contribute to the success of it by participating in these threads knowing that theres a good chance I won’t see these changes go live before I lose all ambition to play and leave.

Karma is as abundant as air, and as useless as the Kardashians.

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Posted by: Zylonite.5913

Zylonite.5913

I don’t know how crafting of an ascended armor works but it should be possible to put my exotic armor in the discovery or upgrade tab of the crafting station and add some ascended mats and BAM!!! there is my ascended armor piece with the increased stats of exactly what I wanted….

My exotic sentinel armor set cost me more than 100 G….now the best thing I can do is to salvage it? I can’t even transfer it to another toon because its soulbound…..

The way ascended armor was introduced was kind of rushed imo and mostly done for gold sink….It should have been designed to allow players with exotics to upgrade to ascended…

I will continue playing with my exotic set and if I feel that ascended stats are required to survive PvE (outside fractals) and WvW, then I will leave the game….

Why do the causal players have to pay the price if some kids playing 24/7 farming 18 hours a day sitting on 100k golds find the game boring or not challenging? while the causal players still have to work for the exotics not to mention the ascended stuff?

Betrayed by the gods of ANet

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Posted by: Romo.3709

Romo.3709

Then, 10 months later, Anet puts a reset on fractal levels, bringing everyone back to 30. This was very badly received by the fractal players, as nothing was offered to compensate for our loss. For months, we were mostly ignored (no answer on many bugs, like harpies going invulnerable, or balance issue, like the dredge spawning tank), and a patch which should have been designed for fractal players was instead hitting us quite badly. Our feedback on this update, and the reset, was also ignored for almost 4 weeks, until Izzy finally said something about it in this thread.

The biggest issue with fractals to this day is the communication with the developers responsible for designing fractals. Like you mentioned earlier when something was asked about level 80, instead of answering the question, the cap was put in place. Whenever any bug is reported, instead of fixing said bug, it’s ninja patched to be even more annoying than before. One of the most hated fractal (hated is a strong word, but it fits this particular example perfectly) would be the dredge fractal. That fractal level, single handily made hundreds (if not thousands) of people loose interest in fractals completely. Many of us that got the fractal into rotation automatically thought “well this run just got much longer”.
Back before Fractured patch was released the dev team were talking about fixing said fractal and how they were looking into making those extremely long fractals a little more balanced and shorter. Instead, after hundreds of pleads to do something about the dredge fractals, implementations that were done, made it even longer and more annoying than ever. Having a light class group in that fractal is now almost impossible since you cannot die on the button in the first area since you’re getting teleported. Thief of a group of guardians is a must on that level. The pipes that used to help corner the rifle dredge got flatten out completely with the ground. The infamous “Dredge Clown Car” did not change at all, despite constant pleads from the community to make it shorter or at least more interesting.
It comes down to communication. Since the beginning, fractals community was taken lightly when it comes to suggestions or complains. The list of things that make the extremely fun an challenging dungeon not fun at all is getting longer and Dredge still remains on top. On the other hand “remain” would be a wrong word to use in this perspective. More of a strengthening their position on number one thing complained about fractals.
I never complained about agony in the first place since I had three characters in 49 personal reward level that I worked really hard to get them properly equipped to 55 AR each and get each of them up to the top one by one. That obviously was completely destroyed by account bound level implementation, aside from level reset. Now it all seemed to be a complete waste of time. Even though I had fun this whole time playing fractals getting my personal levels higher and higher as I started my 4th character in fractals. By fun I mean all those times we played outside of Dredge fractals.
So once again, instead of actually communicating with the community that at one point in time was so passionate about that little thing you made a year ago, the developers team that works on fractals seem to assume things rather than look at what the players are saying.
The hardest part wasn’t a level reset as it shows in many topics created in now archived “Fractured” sub-forum, it was the lack of communication and acknowledgement from the group that was (at one point in time) so very beloved by my fellow fractal teammates, regardless of bugs and annoyments they brought now and then. Instead having the complete lack of communication lest us feeling forgotten and shoved aside for the “good of the many”, that frankly are not even playing fractals anymore since the meta had ended. Along with us hardcore fractal goers that lost faith and hope.

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Posted by: DarkWasp.7291

DarkWasp.7291

I think the absolute best way to hit both horizontal and vertical progression at the same time is to add a whole bunch of good features and content to open world PvE.

Basically stuff like:

  • Improved DE rewards
    EXP is nothing to get excited about for level 80 characters. The few silver we get as a reward felt like pennies at launch, feels more like penny shavings now. Diminishing returns should probably go away.
  • Either tokens for open world stuff or more karma rewards
    It’s Ironic that the karma we get from open world we use to buy ingredients for cooking that allows our alts to skip open world.
  • More new permanent soloable unique events
    Scarlet invasions and Tequatl are already unplayable most times of the day. Even if they weren’t, they aren’t something an individual can just hop on and start doing when he/she wants.
  • Adding goals and rewards that involve just doing open world stuff
    Like dailies but more powerful.

Horizontal
We need more stuff we can just go out and do when we don’t feel like forming a dungeon or fractals party or roaming WvW. With new rewards and features, our level 80 characters would have a reason beyond dailies to go exploring.

Vertical
It would mean SO MUCH to leveling alts and new players if we could get the zones populated again.


IMPORTANT NOTE:

Many if not most of GW2’s updates develop a conflict of interest of some sort:

  • Champ zergs yelling at new players for doing an event ahead of time
  • WvW season achievement hunters chasing sentries instead of helping their server
  • The great war between Scarlet invasion completers and Aether farmers
  • The Blackgate guesting fallout during the Tequatl LS event
  • Runners in the Tower of Nightmares getting fighters rolled by extra aggro
  • Jumpers at the wurm in the current LS event wanting to not see its HP bar drop

I think you should build a specific strike force that you consult with before every update that is dedicated to predicting these things. We’re competing with people we run into, not cooperating with them.

When making updates to the open world, please consider this.

^ Uses Guild Wars 2 character screenshots for desktop wallpapers.

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Posted by: Moshari.8570

Moshari.8570

Hope this answer your question.

((Solemn nod))

Thank you. It does.

Based on what you’ve told me, I think I’m going to have to start radiating my
‘pitchforks and torches’ buff, because if people were reaching those higher levels by skillful, coordinated play those achievements CANNOT be simply erased or forgotten.

In my MMO experience, there is no joy greater than exceeding Developer expectations. When a encounter is introduced amid fanfare of “this fight is so tough only a full party of the best geared, most skillful players can hope to triumph” I IMEDIATELY start thinking about how to pull it off with, oh let’s say half the expected number of players.

Bring. It. On.

To me that sort of thing is the best kind of test of manhood for the hardcore gamer. Who cares about beating an encounter that’s designed to be beaten. I don’t measure my awesome by winning what’s meant to be won, I measure it be how many times I achieve the impossible. Or at least what the Devs thought was impossible .

And how the Devs respond to that is crucial test of their chops too. If they can suck it up and go “Wow, that is amazing. Well done. We’ll step up our game next time and give you a chance to really shine!” You’re looking at a game you hope thrives for years. And if they get huffy that you didn’t bow down and follow the precise script as they intend it, that you leveraged your abilities in a way they just plain forgot about, you’re looking at a game that is on its way down.

While I see the necessity of a new scale for a new system (the fractals the old ranks were earned in simply do not exist anymore, don’t be fooled that the new and old ones share a numbering scheme), and I regret that the changes mean no one else will ever again have the opportunity to test themselves in that fashion, purely horizontal recognition of that skill and effort can be achieved. Achieved gracefully even.

I don’t think the Guildwars Devs are being huffy – signs are they just wanted to add something more rich and engaging rather than being cranky people trampled their expectations, but completely ignoring the prowess that was on display is wrong.

I will be thinking more on this.

Thank you for this.

I still remember my first successful Chained Guardian Tome timed perfectly with another guardian where at the end the whole party was still left standing…it was a huge accomplishment (we had many previous failures) and I was so proud! Later it became second-hand, I even did it with PUG’s (you first or me?)…the timing was everything. The highest I ever did was 71 (I then got a full-time job again and didn’t have time to run fractals), but I was EXTREMELY proud of accomplishing it…it felt good to not only succeed on the high level fractals, but then stuff below 50 actually became much easier…I used to joke with friends that I was going to go do a “relaxing 38” or an “easy 28”. 48’s could still be a challenge with a bad PUG, but everything else could be mitigated (I solo’d the Shaman once on a 28 with a bad PUG that kept dying the first time the elems came out).

Even if you didn’t get over 50…getting up to 49 still required some skill to do it well (particularly since ANET kept changing fractals so one time a technique might work, but the next it would not…or they would bug out).

I have never been so disappointed in a game as when they re-set me down to 30 and didn’t even acknowledge that we were losing something…not a single word, they would just close threads, or merge them…but never comment or discuss, or even explain why they did it. That hurt and single-handedly almost destroyed all faith I had in this game.

So thank you…

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Posted by: FeveredDreamer.2693

FeveredDreamer.2693

Trying to catch the few things addressed directly at me;

About Order Missions;
I didn’t elaborate on it because of limited character space and wanting to see how people react to it. These missions should be themed accordingly. You get stealth, reconnaissance, sabotage, etc. missions for Whispers, you get up front beating things down BUT ALSO defending & escorting things straight up as Vigil, and you get to research stuff / test stuff / acquire stuff for the previous two as Priory.
These missions should vary between instanced and open world. The open world stuff could easily work like the hearts. Just do your job until a satisfactory bar has been reached. The instanced mode would and should scale up according to the people that are with you on that mission. They don’t need to necessarily be in the same Order, just your team helping you out. Group size scaling should work into the mission objectives.
This opens up more achievement sections, and rewards would be tokens which you can trade in for new skins or existing ones of the Order if you don’t want to spend the gold on those. And all that other good stuff available for Tokens, the game has plenty of possibilities what to do anyway.

This would be awesome, it is puzzling how little the personal story has to do with the living story and the future of the game. Even something as simple as having different tasks tied to events that players were asked to do based on their order. Think about how amped people got when their old order mentors were brought up. It just comes off atm as another of those jarring disconnects in the game. I’m not sure this has tons to do with the current subject of progression (story progression?) but it is definitely a noteworthy issue.

About cultural armor should be exotic, not rare:
Just look at exotic karma gear which is dirt cheap in comparison to cultural T3 armor. Karma is essentially worthless. Still, Karma gear is exotic, and doing a braindead group event to get there, is not a challenge in itself.

…Would you be satisfied if the Cultural armor and weapon vendors sold only cosmetic skins that were click-to-apply and had no stats whatsoever?

Absolutely. Either make T3 exotic (note, I am only talking about T3 because this is max level. T2 and T1 are not, thus they can stay as they are) or make cultural armor simply skins.

Just to show my support, this should be clear and obvious the current system of transmutation stones always sucked, people complained about it before and the current move toward ascended gear just makes it worse. Ideally I’d prefer just a PvE skin locker (full stop, period, I don’t care if I have to buy this in the shop but PvE skin locker is better than the current system) but yes definitely if this doesn’t happen cultural gear (which exists for no purpose but to be skinned) should come as an applicable skin.

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Posted by: Chris Whiteside.6102

Previous

Chris Whiteside.6102

Studio Design Director

Next

Hi All,

This is my last day at work before the holiday season and I am going to be very busy!

Once I am on vacation I will have more time to respond and engage.

I am therefore going to postpone the focused discussion on Horizontal Progression until tomorrow. I will catch up post page 36 today (or at least try).

Meanwhile I have a question. This thread is BIG. Would the folks who have already commented on Horizontal want a new thread which is just based on Horizontal or should we just carry on with this thread?

Regarding my reminders from you about comments on some kind of reward for the Fractal reset, I am still thinking about feelings around it.

Chris

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Posted by: Melliarc.5870

Melliarc.5870

Regarding Ascended Gear we would like to see more ways to earn it and in terms of drop rates, a higher percentage chance of acquiring them through this method.

I don’t see exotics very often right now so I’m wondering how more often we could see ascended items. Unless the rare/exotics drop rate is increased as well, to stay proportional in availability, I don’t see a big enough change in the future to make it worthwhile thinking of acquiring ascended items in any other way than focused grind or crafting.

The ability to change gear stats (Note there is still a lot of discussion about whether people want this or not)

It would be really great. Like how it’s possible with legendary items right now.

The ability to build up to Ascended Gear through drops rather than just relying on RNG.

A drop is bound to RNG most of the time, so I’m wondering what kind of drops are you talking about? Chest rewards? Achievement pts?

No more new Gear tiers that make the existing tiers obsolete.

Hallelujah!

Additional ways to earn Ascended Gear at accelerated for Alts.

It would be quite interesting to see this.

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Posted by: Melliarc.5870

Melliarc.5870

Meanwhile I have a question. This thread is BIG. Would the folks who have already commented on Horizontal want a new thread which is just based on Horizontal or should we just carry on with this thread?

I think that whichever is best for you since you’ll be the ones reading it and compiling the answers.

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Posted by: Lilith Ajit.6173

Lilith Ajit.6173

Hi All,

This is my last day at work before the holiday season and I am going to be very busy!

Once I am on vacation I will have more time to respond and engage.

I am therefore going to postpone the focused discussion on Horizontal Progression until tomorrow. I will catch up post page 36 today (or at least try).

Meanwhile I have a question. This thread is BIG. Would the folks who have already commented on Horizontal want a new thread which is just based on Horizontal or should we just carry on with this thread?

Regarding my reminders from you about comments on some kind of reward for the Fractal reset, I am still thinking about feelings around it.

Chris

I’d like a new thread, this one is just so huge.

[ARES]
And all who stood by and did nothing, who are they to criticize the sacrifices of others?
Our blood has bought their lives.

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Posted by: GrimHero.5140

GrimHero.5140

Hi All,

This is my last day at work before the holiday season and I am going to be very busy!

Once I am on vacation I will have more time to respond and engage.

I am therefore going to postpone the focused discussion on Horizontal Progression until tomorrow. I will catch up post page 36 today (or at least try).

Meanwhile I have a question. This thread is BIG. Would the folks who have already commented on Horizontal want a new thread which is just based on Horizontal or should we just carry on with this thread?

Regarding my reminders from you about comments on some kind of reward for the Fractal reset, I am still thinking about feelings around it.

Chris

I think a seperate thread for horizontal would be easier to navigate.

Otherwise if horizontal is going to get as many pages as vertical did we are going to end up with 70+ pages (thats not a bad thing , but thats alot of loading/scrolling)

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Posted by: cesmode.4257

cesmode.4257

Whichever works. I think a new one couldn’t hurt.

Karma is as abundant as air, and as useless as the Kardashians.

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Posted by: Moshari.8570

Moshari.8570

Hi All,

This is my last day at work before the holiday season and I am going to be very busy!

Once I am on vacation I will have more time to respond and engage.

I am therefore going to postpone the focused discussion on Horizontal Progression until tomorrow. I will catch up post page 36 today (or at least try).

Meanwhile I have a question. This thread is BIG. Would the folks who have already commented on Horizontal want a new thread which is just based on Horizontal or should we just carry on with this thread?

Regarding my reminders from you about comments on some kind of reward for the Fractal reset, I am still thinking about feelings around it.

Chris

Yes, a new thread would be beneficial to focus discussion.

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Posted by: LanfearShadowflame.3189

LanfearShadowflame.3189

Hi All,

This is my last day at work before the holiday season and I am going to be very busy!

Once I am on vacation I will have more time to respond and engage.

I am therefore going to postpone the focused discussion on Horizontal Progression until tomorrow. I will catch up post page 36 today (or at least try).

Meanwhile I have a question. This thread is BIG. Would the folks who have already commented on Horizontal want a new thread which is just based on Horizontal or should we just carry on with this thread?

Regarding my reminders from you about comments on some kind of reward for the Fractal reset, I am still thinking about feelings around it.

Chris

I’ve been holding off on posting my thoughts on HP until I knew which option we were going with.

Personally, it’s just as easy for me to post here as it is to post elsewhere; however, since you guys are the ones reading and compiling the information, which would be easier for you? I’m good either way.

Don’t look at me like that. Whatever you’ve heard, it’s probably not true.

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Posted by: VOLKON.1290

VOLKON.1290

Hi All,

This is my last day at work before the holiday season and I am going to be very busy!

Once I am on vacation I will have more time to respond and engage.

I am therefore going to postpone the focused discussion on Horizontal Progression until tomorrow. I will catch up post page 36 today (or at least try).

Meanwhile I have a question. This thread is BIG. Would the folks who have already commented on Horizontal want a new thread which is just based on Horizontal or should we just carry on with this thread?

Regarding my reminders from you about comments on some kind of reward for the Fractal reset, I am still thinking about feelings around it.

Chris

Chris, I believe that horizontal chatter will explode and therefore will be worthy of it’s own thread. I’ll wager 23 copper that it grows larger than this one.

#TeamJadeQuarry

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Posted by: Lilith Ajit.6173

Lilith Ajit.6173

Hi All,

This is my last day at work before the holiday season and I am going to be very busy!

Once I am on vacation I will have more time to respond and engage.

I am therefore going to postpone the focused discussion on Horizontal Progression until tomorrow. I will catch up post page 36 today (or at least try).

Meanwhile I have a question. This thread is BIG. Would the folks who have already commented on Horizontal want a new thread which is just based on Horizontal or should we just carry on with this thread?

Regarding my reminders from you about comments on some kind of reward for the Fractal reset, I am still thinking about feelings around it.

Chris

Chris, I believe that horizontal chatter will explode and therefore will be worthy of it’s own thread. I’ll wager 23 copper that it grows larger than this one.

Oof! High roller! Hehe

[ARES]
And all who stood by and did nothing, who are they to criticize the sacrifices of others?
Our blood has bought their lives.

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Posted by: DiogoSilva.7089

DiogoSilva.7089

Hi All,

This is my last day at work before the holiday season and I am going to be very busy!

Once I am on vacation I will have more time to respond and engage.

I am therefore going to postpone the focused discussion on Horizontal Progression until tomorrow. I will catch up post page 36 today (or at least try).

Meanwhile I have a question. This thread is BIG. Would the folks who have already commented on Horizontal want a new thread which is just based on Horizontal or should we just carry on with this thread?

Regarding my reminders from you about comments on some kind of reward for the Fractal reset, I am still thinking about feelings around it.

Chris

New thread please.

About a reward for the fractal reset, I think whoever got high-leveled in the pre-patch fractals and had to see their levels reset deserve some sign of respect. Be it a title, or some gold compensation, I think rewarding those people would be respectful and look good on Anet’s side.

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Posted by: Dosvidaniya.3260

Dosvidaniya.3260

Meanwhile I have a question. This thread is BIG. Would the folks who have already commented on Horizontal want a new thread which is just based on Horizontal or should we just carry on with this thread?

Whatever you prefer.

Though if you do start a new thread, you may want to separate PvE, WvW, and/or PvP into separate threads. I know that they share many concepts, but given the responses so far, I fear that pvp comments will be so few and far between that there will be no discussion in their regard.