Guild Wars 2

With the PAX Announcement about the new Tequatl and some of the changes (like the post points out, requiring 80+ people), I have wondered if I missed an announcement about bleeding caps being changed or removed.

Is there an update on this? Devs? Anyone?

For anyone who doesn’t know why I’m QQing/Inquiring/Complaining, if you are a condition profession/build, and you enter a massive fight like Tequatl, your type of damage is usually already on him and done. You can swing at him and hit him for 300ish a pop, but those extra 1k damage bleeds that come with it are nullified, where-as a zerker class gets to enjoy laying on 1-3k damage a hit.

Is the encounter going to detect what build everyone is and adjust Teq’s HP accordingly?

I’m not trying to be snarky. I just really hope the devs are still looking into this because I don’t like entering a fight and basically leeching the daily chest, especially now that a fight like Teq is actually going to be difficult and everyone’s contribution is going to be noticed (maybe).

Thoughts? Updates? Stfuandstopqqings?

Thanks!

They really need to just make condition caps be for each player.

I’m sick of being pigeonholed into power builds, literally cuts my few build choices in half.

Hell as a mesmer Staff is pretty much worthless in PvE.

I’d like to add that this is probably especially important to a lot of people now with Ascended weapons out. These items take a lot of work and it would be nice to know that if we want to work say a Rabid ascended weapon, that it will be useful in the big exciting content ANet is going to release in the future.

one of the biggest problems with this game is this thought process that every class under any circumstances should be able to clear all the content in the game and complain about actual specs.

Yup. The more people they expect to work together, the more the flawed condition design becomes apparent.
While Zerker builds actually become even better, due to 25 vulnerability stacks pretty much guaranteed, all it takes to completely max out condition damage is 1(!) good engineer. Everybody else running a condition build might as well not be there. But since this has gone unadressed since release, so I wouldn’t hold my breath for it being changed.

coronaas.4362:

one of the biggest problems with this game is this thought process that every class under any circumstances should be able to clear all the content in the game and complain about actual specs.

Um…. what?

Knote.2904:

coronaas.4362:

one of the biggest problems with this game is this thought process that every class under any circumstances should be able to clear all the content in the game and complain about actual specs.

Um…. what?

this has been complained about since the game launched I specifically remember threads about world bosses and condition damage since a week after release. If it hasn’t been changed in a year this thread wont be the tipping point.

now why even ask if it can be done with 80 necros? In what scenario would 80 necros even attempt something like this? Why the heck should they create content that any class/spec/gear combination you think up be clearable? shouldn’t you adapt to their game instead of adapting the game to your playstyle? “Play how you want” ruined this game

It would be impossible as it would only take 1 to keep bleeds capped around 25. After that you would just be doing white damage for the most part—it ain’t gonna happen. Now if you have one condition, one hybrid, and the rest power, it might work, but would be terribly inefficient.

coronaas.4362:

Knote.2904:

coronaas.4362:

one of the biggest problems with this game is this thought process that every class under any circumstances should be able to clear all the content in the game and complain about actual specs.

Um…. what?

this has been complained about since the game launched I specifically remember threads about world bosses and condition damage since a week after release. If it hasn’t been changed in a year this thread wont be the tipping point.

now why even ask if it can be done with 80 necros? In what scenario would 80 necros even attempt something like this? Why the heck should they create content that any class/spec/gear combination you think up be clearable? shouldn’t you adapt to their game instead of adapting the game to your playstyle? “Play how you want” ruined this game

You’re taking the title too literal.

The point is, this encounter is being advertised as a difficult one. It will have a timer so DPS will matter. The rewards will be good so if we fail, people will care. If everything about conditions is going to be the same as it is now, then every condition player past the first 1 or 2 to arrive at the event will be a handicap.

This makes it very easy for players to get angry at each other over playstyle, which sucks.

I feel like with an event like this coming up and the claims that are being made about it, this is a good time to ask for an update on what’s being done with conditions.

If a dev sees this post I hope they will answer because I’m sure lots of people would like to know.

coronaas.4362:

Knote.2904:

coronaas.4362:

one of the biggest problems with this game is this thought process that every class under any circumstances should be able to clear all the content in the game and complain about actual specs.

Um…. what?

this has been complained about since the game launched I specifically remember threads about world bosses and condition damage since a week after release. If it hasn’t been changed in a year this thread wont be the tipping point.

now why even ask if it can be done with 80 necros? In what scenario would 80 necros even attempt something like this? Why the heck should they create content that any class/spec/gear combination you think up be clearable? shouldn’t you adapt to their game instead of adapting the game to your playstyle? “Play how you want” ruined this game

Yes and Arenanet has been slow for a lot of changes people have been asking for. Hell the LFG and the “New” Tequatl are things that should’ve been here on release, but took a year to finally fix.

The point of this thread is that if Anet is gonna keep pushing for zerg content then they should fix condition builds being useless, and it’s not about “adapting to the game” it’s about completely KILLING half of your already limited build variety in PvE.

Condition builds aren’t a niche gimmick build, it’s not about dmg builds versus support or tank or utility builds or w/e. It’s just dmg….

Power build vs Condition build is just about the way you’re doing dmg, that’s it. And in these scenario’s one is useless and the other is much stronger.

Lol and Anet isn’t even doing the “play how you want” thing at all, I don’t see how it ruined the game at all considering that, if that were the case you wouldn’t have to zerg to make money, and condition builds would be viable. It’s the lack of “play how you want” that’s “ruining” the game as you put it.

Knote.2904:

Lol and Anet isn’t even doing the “play how you want” thing at all, I don’t see how it ruined the game at all considering that, if that were the case you wouldn’t have to zerg to make money, and condition builds would be viable. It’s the lack of “play how you want” that’s “ruining” the game as you put it.

1. you dont have to zerg to make money. It just happens to be efficient. Its sad you cant see the difference.
2. all builds DO NOT and SHOULD not be viable for all content. condition sucks. stop complaining that it sucks and play something else. If you love conditions play spvp where they are the meta. complaining that there is only one viable build (zerk) for pve does nothing to change the fact that there is one viable build for pve.
3. and yet here we are where content is being balanced around all classes are able to complete all content. constant threads of “why is my wvw full pvt ele not able to kill liandri?” or previously “why cant 5 rangers kill simin?” Content is getting balanced so everyone on any spec in any build can complete all content and its bringing the game down to such a level that people expect to just be handed things for showing up. The question isn’t why can’t my pvt ele beat liandri its why the hell could your pvt ele even get to liandri? Can 80 necro’s beat teq? who cares go sit on a turret and let someone carry you through the fight like we end up carrying you through dungeons.

coronaas.4362:

Knote.2904:

Lol and Anet isn’t even doing the “play how you want” thing at all, I don’t see how it ruined the game at all considering that, if that were the case you wouldn’t have to zerg to make money, and condition builds would be viable. It’s the lack of “play how you want” that’s “ruining” the game as you put it.

1. you dont have to zerg to make money. It just happens to be efficient. Its sad you cant see the difference.
2. all builds DO NOT and SHOULD not be viable for all content. condition sucks. stop complaining that it sucks and play something else. If you love conditions play spvp where they are the meta. complaining that there is only one viable build (zerk) for pve does nothing to change the fact that there is one viable build for pve.
3. and yet here we are where content is being balanced around all classes are able to complete all content. constant threads of “why is my wvw full pvt ele not able to kill liandri?” or previously “why cant 5 rangers kill simin?” Content is getting balanced so everyone on any spec in any build can complete all content and its bringing the game down to such a level that people expect to just be handed things for showing up. The question isn’t why can’t my pvt ele beat liandri its why the hell could your pvt ele even get to liandri? Can 80 necro’s beat teq? who cares go sit on a turret and let someone carry you through the fight like we end up carrying you through dungeons.

Quote what I said earlier:

This makes it very easy for players to get angry at each other over playstyle, which sucks.

Also, PVT vs Zerker is not the same or even similar argument. Though it’s interesting to point out that in this case, PVT would be more useful than Rabid or Carrion.

Complaining about not having enough damage when your gear is 66% Defensive stats is not the same as complaining about not having enough damage because the game doesn’t recognize your stats.

High condition damage does not suck on it’s own. It’s very good on it’s own. Still less damage than direct, but it makes up for that in great AoE.

Again, the point of this post is not to complain that every spec and every type of gear isn’t viable for every part of the game. I just want to know if I can make the ascended weapons I’d prefer as a necro (Staff and Scepter) and not be yelled at for going to participate in Tequatl and whatever other encounters they buff next.

Uurik.2934:

Quote what I said earlier:

This makes it very easy for players to get angry at each other over playstyle, which sucks.

If youre worried about being made fun of for something that you recognize is terrible maybe you shouldn’t be doing it. I thought this was obvious enough that I wouldn’t have to quote it

coronaas.4362:

Knote.2904:

Lol and Anet isn’t even doing the “play how you want” thing at all, I don’t see how it ruined the game at all considering that, if that were the case you wouldn’t have to zerg to make money, and condition builds would be viable. It’s the lack of “play how you want” that’s “ruining” the game as you put it.

1. you dont have to zerg to make money. It just happens to be efficient. Its sad you cant see the difference.
2. all builds DO NOT and SHOULD not be viable for all content. condition sucks. stop complaining that it sucks and play something else. If you love conditions play spvp where they are the meta. complaining that there is only one viable build (zerk) for pve does nothing to change the fact that there is one viable build for pve.
3. and yet here we are where content is being balanced around all classes are able to complete all content. constant threads of “why is my wvw full pvt ele not able to kill liandri?” or previously “why cant 5 rangers kill simin?” Content is getting balanced so everyone on any spec in any build can complete all content and its bringing the game down to such a level that people expect to just be handed things for showing up. The question isn’t why can’t my pvt ele beat liandri its why the hell could your pvt ele even get to liandri? Can 80 necro’s beat teq? who cares go sit on a turret and let someone carry you through the fight like we end up carrying you through dungeons.

Yes it’s terrible and Anet should make it not terrible.

Why can power builds DO DMG but condition builds CANNOT do dmg?

It’s not about having SPECIFIC builds for specific content, it’s about a BUILD that uses CONDITION DMG versus a BUILD that uses POWER DMG. I could run a tanky/dmg hybrid Necro well build that uses CONDITION BASED DMG versus a tanky/dmg hybrid Necro well build that uses POWER BASED DMG, it’s the same except the way dmg is dealt, so it’s “ok” that one should just be useless in pve? No.

And I already “adapt” and play zerker/power builds because like I said condition builds are useless, and that should change, how are you even arguing this lmao.

Also yes, you have to zerg to make money, that’s the most efficient BY FAR compared to the rest of the game which is also a huge problem.

This is reminding me of release when people actually argued with me that champ loot SHOULD be bad lmao.

coronaas.4362:

Uurik.2934:

Quote what I said earlier:

This makes it very easy for players to get angry at each other over playstyle, which sucks.

If youre worried about being made fun of for something that you recognize is terrible maybe you shouldn’t be doing it. I thought this was obvious enough that I wouldn’t have to quote it

The heart of the entire issue is that it shouldn’t be terrible. It’s a legit playstyle except for large groups, which makes no sense. This is an issue of the game being borked in this respect, not players refusing to “be better” or something.

Golgathoth.3967:

coronaas.4362:

Uurik.2934:

Quote what I said earlier:

This makes it very easy for players to get angry at each other over playstyle, which sucks.

If youre worried about being made fun of for something that you recognize is terrible maybe you shouldn’t be doing it. I thought this was obvious enough that I wouldn’t have to quote it

The heart of the entire issue is that it shouldn’t be terrible. It’s a legit playstyle except for large groups, which makes no sense. This is an issue of the game being borked in this respect, not players refusing to “be better” or something.

It’s a legit PVP playstyle this is the part you don’t seem able to grasp. If I went into WvW in my pve spec I would get blown up in seconds. Should I start making threads whining that I should be able to play how I want to and to change the mechanics so a full dps a+m/gs warrior is viable in WvW? or should I adapt to the game and change my playstyle?

coronaas.4362:

Golgathoth.3967:

coronaas.4362:

Uurik.2934:

Quote what I said earlier:

This makes it very easy for players to get angry at each other over playstyle, which sucks.

If youre worried about being made fun of for something that you recognize is terrible maybe you shouldn’t be doing it. I thought this was obvious enough that I wouldn’t have to quote it

The heart of the entire issue is that it shouldn’t be terrible. It’s a legit playstyle except for large groups, which makes no sense. This is an issue of the game being borked in this respect, not players refusing to “be better” or something.

It’s a legit PVP playstyle this is the part you don’t seem able to grasp. If I went into WvW in my pve spec I would get blown up in seconds. Should I start making threads whining that I should be able to play how I want to and to change the mechanics so a full dps a+m/gs warrior is viable in WvW? or should I adapt to the game and change my playstyle?

That has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with condition dmg versus power dmg…….. That’s not even on the same topic.

The only way your points would even make sense (and be correct) if there was “content” like a boss that had good condition cleansing or something which would purposefully make condition builds weaker versus it, but that’s not that case at all.

Condition builds just become weaker because of a VERY outdated and clunky mechanic of conditions not stacking and thus become completely useless just because there happens to be an extra handful of people that started attacking your target…

If “condition dmg” wasn’t a stat, and condition dmg was actually just small supplementary dmg it MIGHT make sense, but that’s not the case at all… full condition dmg builds are meant to exist because they have entire weapons based 100% around it.

Knote.2904:

full condition dmg builds are meant to exist because they have entire weapons based 100% around it.

Exactly. Not just weapons either, they have entire PvE gear sets. You’re meant to use it in PvE. It’s absolutely great for AoE tagging, like on staff Necro. Why then should it be useless in very large groups versus one boss? Not just less effective, straight up useless simply because one or two people like you were there already. It makes no sense at all.

As for being legit in PvP, therefore who cares – you just lost all credibility in this conversation. That’s just irrelevant.

Despite what certain individuals in this thread seem to think, condition damage should be just as viable for pve as power. Why anyone would ever argue against opening up build diversity is beyond me but whatever. I wouldn’t hold out much hope that Anet will ever get around to addressing it though to be honest, since this has been a known concern since the BWE’s. But just in case there is someone from Anet who has any sway with making the changes needed to promote build/gear diversity in pve, I would like to plead with them to make this happen.

Like Knote said, the LFG tool has been a concern since BWE as well and it is getting added in the next patch. It’s very possible bleed caps could get some changes and with content like this coming up I feel like the community deserves at least a touchbase with devs on the topic.

I’m not afraid of getting “made fun of.” I don’t even care. I don’t mind playing a zerker necro, it’s fun sometimes.

I prefer conditions though, and I don’t want either of these two scenarios to happen:

1. I put a lot of time into making ascended condition gear and these issues don’t get addressed for another year.
2. I put a lot of time into making ascended zerker gear and these issues get addressed shortly after.

Features like the LFG tool are fun surprises and I’m glad they’re getting around to adding them.

Information about bleed caps however, should not be a delightful surprise one day. I don’t want “stick it out” taking time to make rare items like ascended weapons and ascended armor in the future without knowing whether it will eventually be viable in PvE or not.

True that not all builds should be viable for all content. But in this case, it doesn’t seem that Anet intends for condition builds to be unviable; rather they are unviable because of the technical limitation of 25 stacks.

Will Anet lift this technical limitation? After a year’s worth of complaints and no action? Unlikely.

In essence, conditions in GW2 are a computer engineering nightmare. A full stack of bleed has 26 timers running and require calculations for each pr second damage tick. And that is just a single bleed stack on a single mob or character. Now do the same for 100+ mobs or characters each second, and add on timers for all the other conditions and boons.

Check out any other game, and their stacks are likely to only run up to single digits. And on top of that, there is only a single timer that will wipe the whole stack when it runs out. And the damage is largely fixed based on conditions at time of application. Meaning that once the calculations are done at time of attack, you only do a quick subtraction each damage tick.

The GW2 boons and conditions may look lovely from a design aesthetics point of view, but any sane computer engineer will be groaning in agony.

I play a condition warrior. This really does need to be fixed because I refuse to go Berserker stats like 90% of the population.

digiowl.9620:

In essence, conditions in GW2 are a computer engineering nightmare. A full stack of bleed has 26 timers running and require calculations for each pr second damage tick. And that is just a single bleed stack on a single mob or character. Now do the same for 100+ mobs or characters each second, and add on timers for all the other conditions and boons.

Check out any other game, and their stacks are likely to only run up to single digits. And on top of that, there is only a single timer that will wipe the whole stack when it runs out. And the damage is largely fixed based on conditions at time of application. Meaning that once the calculations are done at time of attack, you only do a quick subtraction each damage tick.

The GW2 boons and conditions may look lovely from a design aesthetics point of view, but any sane computer engineer will be groaning in agony.

I understand all that. I can see how it’d be tough to change.

I’m glad you explained that so devs don’t have to. The question I still have is:

Is this even being worked on? And if it is, how long would the worst case scenario be on fixing it?

This matters a lot to me because I am 80 and the only progression I have to do now is gearing my character towards a certain build.

The two things that make this game fun to me are fighting with each other—my playstyle and being useful.

I’m a “MOAR DOTS!!!” player, but I also don’t like personally (I don’t care if others even realize it or not) feeling like I don’t contribute.

ANet, I need to know if that Staff is worth making or if I should give up and make an Axe.

Note: The ability to change a legendary’s stats is a cool feature but it overlooks the fact that the weapons themselves are usually tied to a type of build. A feature like this would be 1000x more amazing on armor.

Sort of missing the point.

The fact that you shouldn’t go condition damage in PvE IS the problem. There’s a huge avenue of diversity available in condition builds, but is completely negated by the condition cap.

That fact that a single person can keep full stacks of bleeds, poisons, and burns is a problem. In a group of 5 people, having 4 Power damage and 1 condition damage is fine. Having 3 power damage and 2 condition damage means one person is completely worthless in this battle, and you’re basically doing a dungeon with 4 people.

Basically, why create the content if it can’t be used? Why have condition damage at all if it’s effective DPS in groups is zero?

Coming from a Necro that is tired of random crappy damage dots from other players in my group taking my DPS has to stop… but as we all know nothing will happen. If me and 4 of my condi spec necro friends wanted to do a dungeon we can’t really (well we could but you might as well solo the dungeon then as same dps).

I understand that the more time we cry about condition caps the more ANet know we want it gone. Though there is no point even talking about it now… we have for a whole bloody year and nothing has happened about it.

Edit – Maybe a quick fix is that direct damage can be capped? like 5k-10k a second? If you do that damage goes over the cap in that second you don’t get the damage and get a ‘mitigated’ message come up.

That would put DD back into place with Condi.

Like AoE limits, condition caps are one of the issues with the game’s engine.

They’re server-side issues. Too much for the server to keep up with.

coronaas.4362:

Golgathoth.3967:

coronaas.4362:

Uurik.2934:

Quote what I said earlier:

This makes it very easy for players to get angry at each other over playstyle, which sucks.

If youre worried about being made fun of for something that you recognize is terrible maybe you shouldn’t be doing it. I thought this was obvious enough that I wouldn’t have to quote it

The heart of the entire issue is that it shouldn’t be terrible. It’s a legit playstyle except for large groups, which makes no sense. This is an issue of the game being borked in this respect, not players refusing to “be better” or something.

It’s a legit PVP playstyle this is the part you don’t seem able to grasp. If I went into WvW in my pve spec I would get blown up in seconds. Should I start making threads whining that I should be able to play how I want to and to change the mechanics so a full dps a+m/gs warrior is viable in WvW? or should I adapt to the game and change my playstyle?

This isn’t about PvP, it is about PvE.

Condition damage is nice for PvP/WvW.

Condition damage is nice in PvE if you are solo.

Condition damage is bad in PvE if you are with more than one condition build trying to complete an event such as Tequatal so you get the scaling of the extra player but the extra player isn’t doing any damage since the other condition build is putting up the conditions. Events such as Teq have quite a lot of players, I’m sure many are their preferred condition build. Old Teq it didn’t matter, new one it quite possibly will. Same goes for any boss that gets revamped. This is the point you are not grasping.

Katai.6240:

Sort of missing the point.

The fact that you shouldn’t go condition damage in PvE IS the problem. There’s a huge avenue of diversity available in condition builds, but is completely negated by the condition cap.

That fact that a single person can keep full stacks of bleeds, poisons, and burns is a problem. In a group of 5 people, having 4 Power damage and 1 condition damage is fine. Having 3 power damage and 2 condition damage means one person is completely worthless in this battle, and you’re basically doing a dungeon with 4 people.

Basically, why create the content if it can’t be used? Why have condition damage at all if it’s effective DPS in groups is zero?

You’ve got it. That’s it plain and simple. Other games have tried what Anet tried without success and fixed the problem in their game. Take WoW, an affliction warlock (DoT class) is always near the top in raid parses, right up there with direct damage classses. Why? Because the DoT is accounted for by player rather than by stacks on a mob. DoT and direct are simply damage which is delivered differently. The sustained damage of direct and DoT should be comparable in a non-trivial fight.There is no logical reason why a given class shouldn’t get credit for the damage it does and it’s truly bizarre that Anet would try to pull this off in 2012. It doesn’t work and a game developer should know this instinctively.

They are aware of the problem, have indicated a desire to fix it, but there is no ETA.

coronaas.4362:

one of the biggest problems with this game is this thought process that every class under any circumstances should be able to clear all the content in the game and complain about actual specs.

There are only three kinds of damage specs: direct-damage, condition damage, and hybrid. When two out of three of all possible damage specs for all possible builds of all 8 professions are as dramatically underwhelming in a situation as common as open-world boss fights, there is a problem that needs to be solved.

Nijjion.2069:

Edit – Maybe a quick fix is that direct damage can be capped? like 5k-10k a second? If you do that damage goes over the cap in that second you don’t get the damage and get a ‘mitigated’ message come up.

That would put DD back into place with Condi.

This is a good analogy that illustrates the ridiculousness of the problem.