Guild Wars 2

I’ve seen the term thrown around a fair bit on this forum and it confuses me. I don’t see and have never seen any items in the gem store that will give me an edge when competing against the game’s PvE or PvP content.

The popular argument seems to be that cosmetics are the endgame and thus the ability to purchase some cosmetic items is an example of P2W. This strikes me as asinine. A player can be just as good at the game than another player who’s decked in the flamekissed armour or the Grenth hood, etc. Cosmetics have no bearing on skill or your capability to complete the game’s content. I’ve bought a couple of cosmetic items from the gem store in the past but they in no way allowed me to finish a dungeon or participate in WvW any more effectively than someone who hasn’t invested a penny in gems; a currency that may be bought with in-game gold.

To those of you that consider Guild Wars 2 to be pay-to-win, what has made you feel this way and what would you like to see change?

The problem with this argument stems from the fact that people who use the term “Pay 2 Win” have absolutely no idea what it means. Just like when someone complains about “manipulators” in the trade forums. It’s just a negative sounding word that they throw around, hoping that one day it’ll make sense to the topic at hand.

I don’t think its pay to win, but could see why people think it is.
One thing that gets me though. I’m nowhere close to getting an ascended weapon at 600 hours played. If I spent cash I could buy ascended stats (legendary) that would allow me to avoid countless hours of grind. Some might call it a “convenience”, but I’m inclined to think its a bit more than that.

nah guild wars 2 is never considered to be pay to win.

pay for quick convenience, perhaps.
referring to bag slots, bank slots, character slots.

other wise, slowly earn gold from the game, convert into gems, then buy those bag bank character slots.

If anything in the cash shop gave any player an edge when playing against others, i could say this was a P2W, but there is nothing. Even if a player spent a legendary gold worth of gems to buy one, in no case that could be considered P2W. The difference is so small when compared to an exotic weapon that all the difference relies in player skill and class balancing factors!

If you still wonder if this is a P2W game, just ask yourself the question: : "Did I ever lost to a player because he had that “X” item bought in the cash shop" ?

Now another thing is the heavy gold dependency. It can give the starting edge when a new gear/items appear, but that’s another story.

/Cheers

Any objective comparison between a P2W and Gw2 will result in a positive answer to the question.

P2W games had alsways tried to mask the p2w between alternative way to obtain same effect in game…

FIRST CASE:
For example…in many games you can “enchant” your weapon….the more you enchant it the more you risk to lose enchantments or similar.

But there is a store item that will avoid this effect.

Now at a certain point the effort to enchant it becomes so extreme, that you actually need the shop item…..

In Gw2 we have exactly the same….now with the gem becoming out of reach due to the system that is clearly designed to make gem unaccessible the more time pass…

SECOND CASE:
There are indeed pve items in the shop that gives you a HUGE advantage.

RESS orbs repair canister are just a couple example

THIRD CASE:
What about another famous example of P2W games?
Craft booster
20 level scroll
level scroll

Its a common item in P2W games

FOURTH CASE:
In a game where GOLD is the universal way to acquire BEST EQUIP……
Changing real money with GOLD is actually the best way to WIN…..

If you compare common P2W game they have the same EXACT features…
You can THEORETICALLY do the same….but the grind associated is pushing you a lot into pay real money…..

When the game was released the only reaso it wasn t considered a P2W game by most reviewers was the low conversion cost gold to gem making buying GOLD unefficient and gemstore accessible by playing.

Since there we saw a 300% increse in gold to gem…..AND Patches explicitly forcing players into buying GEM items
(Ascended armor/weapons while keeping expensive skins at exotic, and the infamous upgrade extractor).

Frankly, being able to get around time gating by buying the mats on the TP seems to me to be pay to win.

I guess we have different definitions of “WIN”, and i believe that’s the controversial reason about the P2W discussion.

Granting a HUGE advantage isn’t P2W. It’s a matter of accessibility and alternative.

I don’t find any PvE item (regardless on how much advantage it gives) to be a P2W item.
Items that give advantages in PvP, now that can be considered P2W only if there is no alternative way than spending a lot of cash, which there is none that affects PvP and none that is needed to spend a lot of cash.

So in all fairness, it’s all about Convenience!

LordByron.8369:

FIRST CASE:
For example…in many games you can “enchant” your weapon….the more you enchant it the more you risk to lose enchantments or similar.

But there is a store item that will avoid this effect.

Now at a certain point the effort to enchant it becomes so extreme, that you actually need the shop item…..

In Gw2 we have exactly the same….now with the gem becoming out of reach due to the system that is clearly designed to make gem unaccessible the more time pass…

…wait, what? I don’t even know what you are talking about, doesn’t sound like any mechanic in GW2 i am aware of.

I think LordByron talks about the fact that lots of people invest in the runes and sigils. The only way of getting those back from an armor if you change it (say of you get ascended armor for example) is either recycling the old armor (and you have a risk of loosing the rune) or buying items from the shop to be sure to keep it.

LordByron.8369:

Any objective comparison between a P2W and Gw2 will result in a positive answer to the question.

I’d say this depends on the individual’s definition of Pay to Win.

For me, it’s any item available in the cash shop that gives a massive advantage over other players, that isn’t available by any other means.

LordByron.8369:

FIRST CASE:
For example…in many games you can “enchant” your weapon….the more you enchant it the more you risk to lose enchantments or similar.

But there is a store item that will avoid this effect.

Now at a certain point the effort to enchant it becomes so extreme, that you actually need the shop item…..

In Gw2 we have exactly the same….now with the gem becoming out of reach due to the system that is clearly designed to make gem unaccessible the more time pass…

Is this pay to win though?

If you’re replacing a Sigil or Rune, it’s going to be for a reason, surely? There’s no risk involved at all. It’s a calculated decision by the player. Not to mention this could be circumvented by simply slotting the upgrade into a different set of gear.

As for upgrading Infusions, I’d say it’s more a case of Pay for Convenience, so you don’t have to create 3 of the same Infusion to get the next tier of Infusion.

LordByron.8369:

SECOND CASE:
There are indeed pve items in the shop that gives you a HUGE advantage.

RESS orbs repair canister are just a couple example.

Ress orbs give you 1 HP. The only time they’re ever useful is if you’re in the world, alone, with no mobs around.

Repair canisters are convenience. Not to mention if you die so much that you require the use of a repair canister to repair fully broken gear, then chances are all the repair canisters in the world won’t help.

LordByron.8369:

THIRD CASE:
What about another famous example of P2W games?
Craft booster
20 level scroll
level scroll

Its a common item in P2W games

That’s a logical fallacy right there. Just because an item is in a P2W game, doesn’t make the item itself inherently P2W.

Not to mention these are available in-game as well.

LordByron.8369:

FOURTH CASE:
In a game where GOLD is the universal way to acquire BEST EQUIP……
Changing real money with GOLD is actually the best way to WIN…..

Alongside having to actually play the game as well?

It’s not a case that you get gold from Gems and you automatically got the best gear. You still got to collect Bloodstone, Dragonite, Empyreal ect.

Chances are that you’re going to get gold while collecting these materials.

OP, you’ve successfully missed the point of the argument.

People who say it’s “Pay to win” when it comes to cosmetics aren’t saying you can gain gameplay advantage with cash.

They’re saying a big part of the endgame – what you do once you’ve got the best gear – comes with mandatory ties to the gem store in form of skins and transmutation crystals. This is deceptive since you’d assume you would be able to acquire the endgame goals by playing instead of paying.

LordByron.8369:

Any objective comparison between a P2W and Gw2 will result in a positive answer to the question.

P2W games had alsways tried to mask the p2w between alternative way to obtain same effect in game…

FIRST CASE:
For example…in many games you can “enchant” your weapon….the more you enchant it the more you risk to lose enchantments or similar.

But there is a store item that will avoid this effect.

Now at a certain point the effort to enchant it becomes so extreme, that you actually need the shop item…..

In Gw2 we have exactly the same….now with the gem becoming out of reach due to the system that is clearly designed to make gem unaccessible the more time pass…

SECOND CASE:
There are indeed pve items in the shop that gives you a HUGE advantage.

RESS orbs repair canister are just a couple example

THIRD CASE:
What about another famous example of P2W games?
Craft booster
20 level scroll
level scroll

Its a common item in P2W games

FOURTH CASE:
In a game where GOLD is the universal way to acquire BEST EQUIP……
Changing real money with GOLD is actually the best way to WIN…..

If you compare common P2W game they have the same EXACT features…
You can THEORETICALLY do the same….but the grind associated is pushing you a lot into pay real money…..

When the game was released the only reaso it wasn t considered a P2W game by most reviewers was the low conversion cost gold to gem making buying GOLD unefficient and gemstore accessible by playing.

Since there we saw a 300% increse in gold to gem…..AND Patches explicitly forcing players into buying GEM items
(Ascended armor/weapons while keeping expensive skins at exotic, and the infamous upgrade extractor).

1) GW doesn’t have that form of enchantment.

2) Those aren’t a huge advantage. Rez Orb takes ages to actually rez you. Repair canister is w/e. Both can be gotten from achievement chests and BL chests. If you really wanted to grind farm them for free, just make a new toon, complete the lvl 10 story quest, get a BL key, use it/store it, delete toon, repeat.

3)All can be obtained easily in-game. I have like 8 lvl 20 scrolls in storage from boss loot bags. More-so for craft boosters, and skill point scrolls. I mean, when I made a necro it went from lvl 2 to lvl 30 in about 2 minutes from the scrolls. You could argue P2W, but I didn’t actually spend any money to get the scrolls…

4) What exactly are you winning at? Fractals? The stat difference between exo and ascended is easily swallowed up by RNG and skill differences.

Forge recipe skins are purely cosmetic. Calling that P2W is asinine. They don’t make players better or worse at the game vs those that do not have them.

Not sure what cash-shop items you are referring to that players are forced into buying. There’s nothing in the cash-shop that I’ve felt forced to buy. There’s some things I’ve bought because the long-term convenience of it out-weighed the cost, in my mind. But there hasn’t been a single item that I thought “if I don’t get this, I won’t be able to play the game.”

Astralporing.1957:

LordByron.8369:

FIRST CASE:
For example…in many games you can “enchant” your weapon….the more you enchant it the more you risk to lose enchantments or similar.

But there is a store item that will avoid this effect.

Now at a certain point the effort to enchant it becomes so extreme, that you actually need the shop item…..

In Gw2 we have exactly the same….now with the gem becoming out of reach due to the system that is clearly designed to make gem unaccessible the more time pass…

…wait, what? I don’t even know what you are talking about, doesn’t sound like any mechanic in GW2 i am aware of.

No i m talking of another more fishy thing that is happening and convinced me i won t be around for long on this game….

I m talking on INFUSIONS the next “vertical progression”.

The mechanics around the X and the chance of seeying the +Xar/Xstats and the introduction of the extractor seems another plan to PUSH players into gemstore….

They introduced a mechanics we didn t need (2 different types of AR?) just for that leaving behind balancing, new istances etc etc

You can find a confirmation in the dev vertical progression CDI…

They said they won t add another tier making the old obsolete…
This is clearly suggesting they will work oninfusions and upgrades from now on….

Great discussion so far, it’s been interested to see what people think on the matter. Keep it up!

Draco.2806:

OP, you’ve successfully missed the point of the argument.

People who say it’s “Pay to win” when it comes to cosmetics aren’t saying you can gain gameplay advantage with cash.

They’re saying a big part of the endgame – what you do once you’ve got the best gear – comes with mandatory ties to the gem store in form of skins and transmutation crystals. This is deceptive since you’d assume you would be able to acquire the endgame goals by playing instead of paying.

I disagree. I buy the majority of transmutation crystals using gems that I’ve converted from gold made in-game as they are inexpensive. There have been occasions where I’ve been too impatient to wait and have invested real money into the gem store but at that point it’s a convenience, not a victory over the game another player.

EDIT: transmutation crystals, not stones.

Draco.2806:

OP, you’ve successfully missed the point of the argument.

People who say it’s “Pay to win” when it comes to cosmetics aren’t saying you can gain gameplay advantage with cash.

They’re saying a big part of the endgame – what you do once you’ve got the best gear – comes with mandatory ties to the gem store in form of skins and transmutation crystals. This is deceptive since you’d assume you would be able to acquire the endgame goals by playing instead of paying.

Except “Pay to Win” literally means: “I pay real-life money, I get an advantage over those who don’t.” P2W is a poor term for what GW2 does. Perhaps P2DU (Pay to Dress-Up.)

Anyways, the cash-shop skins are open to opinion. Personally, I think the vast majority are hideous. I have no interest in ever acquiring them. Transmutation Crystals, I’ll give you. Even if you’re frugal, you’ll generally only end up with enough for maybe a full set of gear on one character for a full lvl 1-80 play through.

Any Cosmetics related subject is NOT Pay2Win. Never will be!
Pay to look pretty? OK. I can agree, but unless you are in a beauty contest, it’s no P2W!

LordByron.8369:

Any objective comparison between a P2W and Gw2 will result in a positive answer to the question.

P2W games had alsways tried to mask the p2w between alternative way to obtain same effect in game…

This is blatantly false. The fact is that every item in this game that can be used at end game can be obtained without spending a single cent of physical cash on this game at all. And can even be obtained in a relatively short time (a year or two at the most) by doing so.

While it is certainly true that some of the end game content in certain Pay 2 Win games can be obtained solely by farming cash, it would take an individual over 5 to 6 years of doing nothing other than farming items to rack up enough cash to buy a full set of end game equipment in a game like Perfect World International. Not to mention 10 or so years to reach max level without spending money on hyper-experience stones and a power-leveling service.

This is because that game’s experience points system requires a little over 4 billion experience points to reach the level cap, and without hyper experience multiplier of twelve the highest amount of experience you are going to get from any given mob is around 200 to 300 XP and that’s for the absolute end game bosses.

The second best weapons and armor is actually going to run you 1513 Gold (that game’s equivalent to Gems) in their Cash Shop. That is years of farming, not to mention approximately the same amount in US Dollars. And that isn’t even getting into Rank IX Reforged Armor which will cost even more.

Point is, nothing in Guild Wars 2 approaches anywhere close to the level of Pay 2 Win that is present in various other games that are described as Pay 2 Win. Heck this game is the closest to a legitimate Free to Play Game that you are actually likely to ever see in an economy like this world actually has.

Valistrix.4079:

I disagree. I buy the majority of transmutation crystals using gems that I’ve converted from gold made in-game as they are inexpensive.

Farmers swimming in easy gold need not apply.

In fact, stop.

Shadow Phage.9084:

Except “Pay to Win” literally means: “I pay real-life money, I get an advantage over those who don’t.”

Yep, that’s why I said OP misunderstood what people mean by it.

Shadow Phage.9084:

P2W is a poor term for what GW2 does. Perhaps P2DU (Pay to Dress-Up.)

Even if you’re frugal, you’ll generally only end up with enough for maybe a full set of gear on one character for a full lvl 1-80 play through.

That’s a good term for it.

I think I’ve bought a good set back when they were on sale, a long time ago. With cash. I can’t imagine “buying” these things with the current gold-to-gem prices at all (of course, that would defeat the whole point of them from ANet’s profit perspective).

An Siorai Tharian.4516:

… can even be obtained in a relatively short time (a year or two at the most) …

…Why…

An Siorai Tharian.4516:

Heck this game is the closest to a legitimate Free to Play Game that you are actually likely to ever see in an economy like this world actually has.

There are games even more liberal than GW2 when it comes to free to play, but I agree with most of the remainder of your post (though I do not consider two years farming to get an in game item to be good).

Does paying in game gold to buy the best armor / weapons considered pay 2 win?

Ashen.2907:

An Siorai Tharian.4516:

Heck this game is the closest to a legitimate Free to Play Game that you are actually likely to ever see in an economy like this world actually has.

There are games even more liberal than GW2 when it comes to free to play, but I agree with most of the remainder of your post (though I do not consider two years farming to get an in game item to be good).

It’s better than 5 or 6 years of doing nothing else in the game but farming.

Stars.2179:

Does paying in game gold to buy the best armor / weapons considered pay 2 win?

In a game like Perfect World International where Open World PvP is enabled and ganking is allowed against everyone over level 30…. having the best possible armor, weapons (and in the case of the Venomancer, Pets) is absolutely mandatory. So yes, paying real hard cash for the end game armor and weapons, especially on PvP servers, is in fact essential.

Stars.2179:

Does paying in game gold to buy the best armor / weapons considered pay 2 win?

NO. Ingame gold may come from multiple sources. P2W is directly tied with Spending Cash to obtain the said items.

I have a legendary (best weapon tier) and haven’t payed for it. Hard earned Gold to mats to craft it!

error- double post.

An Siorai Tharian.4516:

LordByron.8369:

Any objective comparison between a P2W and Gw2 will result in a positive answer to the question.

P2W games had alsways tried to mask the p2w between alternative way to obtain same effect in game…

This is blatantly false. The fact is that every item in this game that can be used at end game can be obtained without spending a single cent of physical cash on this game at all. And can even be obtained in a relatively short time (a year or two at the most) by doing so..

Theory and reality is the excuses of every game…

I think you should check that 99% of reknown P2W games you can theoretically play without paying….

In reality you get huge advantages….

Now if i can buy a legendary (or part of it) via real money (know many players doing it)….

compared to farm and grind boring stuff for months….

Well it really is the same……

If you can just get thousands +1 AR to play….

Or half of that and a gem shop item …..well itspay to win.

This thread have been already answered by many videogame reviews…..so “blatantly false” is your statement….

The best abnswer goes to theguy saying you can’t win in PVE….
The same can be said of any mmorpg…thus P2W doesn t exist

P.S. also soon to be release Fractal leaderboards…so you can win it seems.

to make it clearer here is how the urban dictionary defines p2w

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pay-to-win

//Quote.. Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.

me i belive there are lots of minor elements in the game that are pay to win in PVE many would disagree that because its not vs a player its not p2w but thats just dumb

but an advantage bit in pve or pvp is still an advantage i.e boosters being one of the more notable advantages you can buy
and to clarify why i see it this way here is a good example
i have this friend who plays who is very sucsessfull in life and is prety well off money wise and when he plays he buys 250 black lion keys at a time and runs around in pve with every single booster buff going on him 24/7 includeing all combat boosters (witch i see as his bigest advantage gameplay wise) so hes got an extra 5% dmg boost 5% less dmg taken and a perma regen to his health not to mention all the other smaller less noteable boosters
do you not think he has an edge on other players when it comes to doing game content when he hits harder than you takes less dmg than you and just generaly survives better than you in combat situations ?
and thats just one side of it theres allso the time saved by buying stuff via gem store for rl cash in most cases its cosmetic and has no impact on game play and im fine with that its how the gem store should be used
but i recently started a thread on the forums reguarding the method used to remove infusions and how i belive it to be p2w because those who remove there infusions to continue the upgrade process are esentialy cuting there upgrade time in half
if you read the definition of p2w i linked it falls under the catagory of geting better quality items at a faster rate than others
you dont win in GW2 its a never ending adventure but for me i see progress as wining in gw2 and those that pay and save time grinding are progressing freely while you grind
if it was only optional cosmetics like armour skins i wouldent care. if you wana grind for that skin thats your choice and itl have no effect on gameplay what so ever. but its not that black and white with certain other items
so yes gw2 certainly dose have p2w elements in my opinion

Also I find it funny that the following fact is true:

If you find yourself logging in to farm champ train for mats, gold and not for the purpose of dragonites/bloodstone/empyreal/karma/laurels/fun, you might as well not play and be better off. Why? A person working at McDonald with minimum wage say 7.25$ an hour (say 6 $ of disposable income after taxes and stuff). Give up two hours of playing the game and add those two to work extra. That 12 $ → Gems → 50-60g.

If you work a professional job with 20$ an hour, sign up for that extra hour and convert into about 90g through gems. Do that consistently say for a month and you get 2700g. I bet 99% of the game population do not earn 90g per hour continuously.

If you play the game simply to get “rich” you might as well NOT play it and put money into it until you’re rich and play for other purposes. But then not all of us do things efficiently, that’s why we play and found ourselves mining those iron mines for hours while one could have gone to work a few extra hours and convert those to get all the iron you need for the entire month.

An Siorai Tharian.4516:

It’s better than 5 or 6 years of doing nothing else in the game but farming.

I disagree.

If two years is too much then three or four more years is irrelevant. Its like poison. If two ounces is a lethal dose taking six ounces does not make the imbiber more dead.

people hear buzz words on the internet and then throw it into any conversation whether or not it is relevant- hence the meme “you keep using that word..”

GW2 is not PtW not is any shape or from- people need to go play actual PtW games to see how good we have it.

LordByron.8369:

An Siorai Tharian.4516:

LordByron.8369:

Any objective comparison between a P2W and Gw2 will result in a positive answer to the question.

P2W games had alsways tried to mask the p2w between alternative way to obtain same effect in game…

This is blatantly false. The fact is that every item in this game that can be used at end game can be obtained without spending a single cent of physical cash on this game at all. And can even be obtained in a relatively short time (a year or two at the most) by doing so..

Theory and reality is the excuses of every game…

I think you should check that 99% of reknown P2W games you can theoretically play without paying….

In reality you get huge advantages….

Now if i can buy a legendary (or part of it) via real money (know many players doing it)….

compared to farm and grind boring stuff for months….

Well it really is the same……

If you can just get thousands +1 AR to play….

Or half of that and a gem shop item …..well itspay to win.

This thread have been already answered by many videogame reviews…..so “blatantly false” is your statement….

The best abnswer goes to theguy saying you can’t win in PVE….
The same can be said of any mmorpg…thus P2W doesn t exist

P.S. also soon to be release Fractal leaderboards…so you can win it seems.

The problem with your entire argument Lord Byron is that in Guild Wars 2, the Legendary Weapons do not exist until someone crafts them after having farmed for the materials and put in the work to make them in the first place. Same goes for the Ascended Weapons, but since those are automatically soulbound that doesn’t work the same way.

The point is, that every single Legendary Weapon that happens to reside on the Trading Post in Guild Wars 2, had to have someone spend the time to craft it. Otherwise it would not exist in order to be sold.

This is not true in a game like Perfect World International where the Rank IX Armor and Weapons are automatically handed out and bound to a player character after a player earns 300,000 Reputation (something that can only reliably be done by purchasing 12,000 Wraith Officer’s Badges, which essentially costs 108 Dollars to start with), 19 Medals of Glory (another Cash Shop item that when combined costs another 380 dollars) and 205 General Summer’s Tokens (another cash shop item, but one which can somewhat be farmed in game, these if bought in the cash shop will cost yet another 1,025 dollars). You cannot get all of these items in the game proper. Most of them have to be purchased from their Cash Shop in some way. And the reputation that is farmable in the game is so insignificant and takes so long as to make it meaningless.

Point is, that unlike the Legendary Weapons in this game, it is nearly impossible to get Rank 9 Armor in Perfect World International without dropping a significant amount of real money on it.

Also, I would like to point out that Ascended and Legendary Gear only provides about a 5% bonus to a player characters vital stats when compared to Exotic Gear. That is not enough to be considered a “Significant” bonus. At least not when compared to the large gap in power between a Perfect World International Player who is wearing a full set of Rank 9 Second Recast Armor with Interval Stats, when compared to a player who is simply wearing Standard Rank 9 Armor.

An Siorai Tharian.4516:

Also, I would like to point out that Ascended and Legendary Gear only provides about a 5% bonus to a player characters vital stats when compared to Exotic Gear. That is not enough to be considered a “Significant” bonus. At least not when compared to the large gap in power between a Perfect World International Player who is wearing a full set of Rank 9 Second Recast Armor with Interval Stats, when compared to a player who is simply wearing Standard Rank 9 Armor.

The fact that one can obtain more significant advantage in another game does not make 5% not significant here.

Please tell me where and when in Gw2 you couldn’t evolve further without spending a single cent.

An Siorai Tharian.4516:

LordByron.8369:

An Siorai Tharian.4516:

LordByron.8369:

Any objective comparison between a P2W and Gw2 will result in a positive answer to the question.

P2W games had alsways tried to mask the p2w between alternative way to obtain same effect in game…

This is blatantly false. The fact is that every item in this game that can be used at end game can be obtained without spending a single cent of physical cash on this game at all. And can even be obtained in a relatively short time (a year or two at the most) by doing so..

Theory and reality is the excuses of every game…

I think you should check that 99% of reknown P2W games you can theoretically play without paying….

In reality you get huge advantages….

Now if i can buy a legendary (or part of it) via real money (know many players doing it)….

compared to farm and grind boring stuff for months….

Well it really is the same……

If you can just get thousands +1 AR to play….

Or half of that and a gem shop item …..well itspay to win.

This thread have been already answered by many videogame reviews…..so “blatantly false” is your statement….

The best abnswer goes to theguy saying you can’t win in PVE….
The same can be said of any mmorpg…thus P2W doesn t exist

P.S. also soon to be release Fractal leaderboards…so you can win it seems.

The problem with your entire argument Lord Byron is that in Guild Wars 2, the Legendary Weapons do not exist until someone crafts them after having farmed for the materials and put in the work to make them in the first place. Same goes for the Ascended Weapons, but since those are automatically soulbound that doesn’t work the same way.
.

Ascended weapons and armors and legendaries depends on GOLD.
The fact you can bypass gold, (that is the hardest wall in acquiring best equipmen) via real money is the pure definition of p2w.

Now we can debate if recent Patches and dev CDI suggests a plan to make this game more and more grind OR p2w…

My opinion was ordering another game just after reading the thread….

LordByron.8369:

The fact you can bypass gold, (that is the hardest wall in acquiring best equipmen) via real money is the pure definition of p2w.

No, a more accurate definition would be if paying money surpassed gold, not bypassed it. Paying real money does not give a significant advantage, if any at all, over those who choose to pay gold.

Technically, as of ascended armor and weapons (and to an extent the agony infusion overhaul), yes. With the lack of viable (rng drops at an extremely low level aren’t viable) alternatives, the required gold investment into crafting (with the majority of crafted items being worth less than the mats) to get them, an amount of gold that seems to be more than the average player reasonably has on hand being able to bypass it with real world $$$ places this game under pay to win, even if only by a little bit. If the path to ascended didn’t require such a large amount of gold I would disagree with the P2W claim but the path to ascended does require a large amount of gold and there isn’t viable alternatives (like with exotics that had dungeon tokens, badges of honor and really weren’t that expensive)

No need to dwell on it. The answer is “yes”.

Pay or grind – one costs money, the other costs time. If you have either to burn then you end up “winning” in the game.

Though what you win is something for a much deeper discussion.

An Siorai Tharian.4516:

Point is, that unlike the Legendary Weapons in this game, it is nearly impossible to get Rank 9 Armor in Perfect World International without dropping a significant amount of real money on it.

Also, I would like to point out that Ascended and Legendary Gear only provides about a 5% bonus to a player characters vital stats when compared to Exotic Gear. That is not enough to be considered a “Significant” bonus. At least not when compared to the large gap in power between a Perfect World International Player who is wearing a full set of Rank 9 Second Recast Armor with Interval Stats, when compared to a player who is simply wearing Standard Rank 9 Armor.

Been there.
PWI is a glowing example for anyone who wants to know what a P2W game is.
This rank9 gear is so above and beyond anything farmable in game, especially once you also pay to recast it twice. Worse yet, is the refining mechanic – you dump loads more cash into the game to be able to refine this gear to +10 or +12, which is a huge gap yet again between someone with just the base model. Quite literally anyone with a credit card can login, buy their gear and smash your face. No amount of skill will save you. They just have to faceroll a couple attacks and you are dead if you are not in matching rank9 gear. They have quite literally bought the ability to steamroll anyone who is also not rich enough to have the same gear as them.
I had managed to get a rank9 bow and 2 pieces of armor. Could never afford the recasts though, let alone the obscene cost of refining it.
Not to mention the other cashshop based Annipack endgame gearings.

People trying to argue GW2 as a pay to win game have obviously never played one.

It’s pay2win, just more cleverly layered.

@ the OP:

There are people on both sides of the fence, and no matter what anyone says, there will always be someone spouting the “GW2 is P2W” drivel. If you do a forum search, these threads have been around since day 1.

P2W as I define it is placing something in the cash/gem shop that one cannot compete without. I don’t mean a bit of a boost to something, and I don’t mean something to make you look pretty.

If the devs place an event or dungeon or fractal level in the game that cannot be completed without the shiny new “Sigil if Silliness” that is sold only in the gem shop, then I would agree that it would be P2W, as you would have absolutely no choice but to buy the sigil in order to complete those activities.

As the game sits right now, there is absolutely NOTHING in the gem shop that one has to have in order to progress or compete. Literally everything in the shop is optional, convenient, or skins. Even if someone had everything in the gem shop at their disposal, the differences to me just are not that great.

Let’s look at a couple of the things that Lord Byron mentioned:

1. The enchant argument wasn’t so much about the enchant itself, but the gold ratio. Gems are becoming harder for the players to actually buy with in-game gold. Yes, they are, and I do agree with him on this point. What I don’t agree with is that they are absolutely needed.

2. The advantages gained by the in-store items are not so much as he would have you to believe. Rez orbs and Repair canisters were mentioned. I bought one of each once. Notice I said “once.” Neither of them are required in order to play the game. The mechanics that the ANet team gave them make them anything but P2W.

3. All of those items are readily available in-game except the 20-level scroll, which is not needed in order to play the game. None of them are directly available in the gem shop except the craft booster, which doesn’t give that much of a boost. Not enough to make me say I absolutely HAVE to get one in order to “win” at crafting. The rest are all RNG BL chest things. These two points make that entire concept invalid.

4. In any game, gold is king. Having, making, spending, and bragging about gold has been around since the beginning. The P2W aspect of this is based solely in aquiring enough to buy gems and get those “other” P2W items that can only be purchased with gems. Unfortunately, I just debunked the “other” P2W arguments.

TL;DR:
Those who think GW2 is P2W have a skewed view of what P2W actually means. I don’t begrudge their right to feel the way they do, I just don’t understand it with the current offerings in the gem shop. There is simply NOTHING in the gem shop that is required in order to play the game.

Cheers!

MrRuin.9740:

An Siorai Tharian.4516:

Point is, that unlike the Legendary Weapons in this game, it is nearly impossible to get Rank 9 Armor in Perfect World International without dropping a significant amount of real money on it.

Also, I would like to point out that Ascended and Legendary Gear only provides about a 5% bonus to a player characters vital stats when compared to Exotic Gear. That is not enough to be considered a “Significant” bonus. At least not when compared to the large gap in power between a Perfect World International Player who is wearing a full set of Rank 9 Second Recast Armor with Interval Stats, when compared to a player who is simply wearing Standard Rank 9 Armor.

Been there.
PWI is a glowing example for anyone who wants to know what a P2W game is.
This rank9 gear is so above and beyond anything farmable in game, especially once you also pay to recast it twice. Worse yet, is the refining mechanic – you dump loads more cash into the game to be able to refine this gear to +10 or +12, which is a huge gap yet again between someone with just the base model. Quite literally anyone with a credit card can login, buy their gear and smash your face. No amount of skill will save you. They just have to faceroll a couple attacks and you are dead if you are not in matching rank9 gear. They have quite literally bought the ability to steamroll anyone who is also not rich enough to have the same gear as them.
I had managed to get a rank9 bow and 2 pieces of armor. Could never afford the recasts though, let alone the obscene cost of refining it.
Not to mention the other cashshop based Annipack endgame gearings.

People trying to argue GW2 as a pay to win game have obviously never played one.

At least someone here knows what a true Pay to Win game is like other than me. Guild Wars 2 is far from that level of obscenity. Refresh my memory, but haven’t people spent somewhere around 5,000 dollars for full Rank 9 Second Recast +12 Armor & Accessories which can also be +12’ed, in Perfect World International? Not counting those insane enough to re-roll the semi-randomized stats on their Armor…

That’s describing the difference in the severity of two P2W systems, not a difference in the fundamental workings of those system.

this game is P2AG
pay to avoid grind
there is no way to “win” in this game
the gem operation is borderline P2W but so far it is mostly fine.
mostly the problem is legendaries that can be bought

Ashen.2907:

An Siorai Tharian.4516:

Also, I would like to point out that Ascended and Legendary Gear only provides about a 5% bonus to a player characters vital stats when compared to Exotic Gear. That is not enough to be considered a “Significant” bonus. At least not when compared to the large gap in power between a Perfect World International Player who is wearing a full set of Rank 9 Second Recast Armor with Interval Stats, when compared to a player who is simply wearing Standard Rank 9 Armor.

The fact that one can obtain more significant advantage in another game does not make 5% not significant here.

5% is not significant enough to be considered p2w. It’s a minimal difference that gives a fairly equal chance to win.

p2w means you have minimal chance to win against someone with a bigger wallet, if you have a chance at all. p2w means anything from 30-50% difference in power to outright one-shotting of non-paying players.

An Siorai Tharian.4516:

MrRuin.9740:

An Siorai Tharian.4516:

Point is, that unlike the Legendary Weapons in this game, it is nearly impossible to get Rank 9 Armor in Perfect World International without dropping a significant amount of real money on it.

Also, I would like to point out that Ascended and Legendary Gear only provides about a 5% bonus to a player characters vital stats when compared to Exotic Gear. That is not enough to be considered a “Significant” bonus. At least not when compared to the large gap in power between a Perfect World International Player who is wearing a full set of Rank 9 Second Recast Armor with Interval Stats, when compared to a player who is simply wearing Standard Rank 9 Armor.

Been there.
PWI is a glowing example for anyone who wants to know what a P2W game is.
This rank9 gear is so above and beyond anything farmable in game, especially once you also pay to recast it twice. Worse yet, is the refining mechanic – you dump loads more cash into the game to be able to refine this gear to +10 or +12, which is a huge gap yet again between someone with just the base model. Quite literally anyone with a credit card can login, buy their gear and smash your face. No amount of skill will save you. They just have to faceroll a couple attacks and you are dead if you are not in matching rank9 gear. They have quite literally bought the ability to steamroll anyone who is also not rich enough to have the same gear as them.
I had managed to get a rank9 bow and 2 pieces of armor. Could never afford the recasts though, let alone the obscene cost of refining it.
Not to mention the other cashshop based Annipack endgame gearings.

People trying to argue GW2 as a pay to win game have obviously never played one.

At least someone here knows what a true Pay to Win game is like other than me. Guild Wars 2 is far from that level of obscenity. Refresh my memory, but haven’t people spent somewhere around 5,000 dollars for full Rank 9 Second Recast +12 Armor in Perfect World International? Not counting those insane enough to re-roll the stats on their Armor…

While I agree it’s far from that, it doesn’t mean GW2 isn’t pay to win either. I mean, if I use an analogy, say I’m driving my car 5mph (or kmph, take your pick) over the speed limit and someone else is driving 100mph over the speed limit, the difference in degree of speed doesn’t mean I’m not speeding, both of us are going to get a ticket.

TwoBit.5903:

That’s a difference in the severity of the P2W system, not a difference in the fundamental workings of the system.

no its a difference in what constitutes Pay to Win. When a game says “You can’t have the best Armor in the Game unless someone is willing to shell out real money on me.” that is Pay to Win. Guild Wars does not do this. Perfect World International however, does.

What I mean is that it is 100% possible to get the best items in the game, and indeed the very first Legendary Items in Guild Wars 2 could only have been gotten in this way, unless you are saying that Anet specifically published the recipe’s for every single Legendary Weapon as well as making a few copies of the items automatically purchasable on the Trading Post when they first released the Legendary Weapons? Because unless someone spent the time to craft them initially, then we wouldn’t know the recipe’s, and there wouldn’t be any on the trading post to purchase to begin with. The trading post wouldn’t exist if items weren’t being crafted or farmed.

Perfect World International is a bit different from Guild Wars 2 in this respect. Every single piece of Rank 9 Armor (including the Recasts) is the equivalent to being Soulbound in that game. Not Account Bound, but actually bound to a single character, upon being received for the first time from an NPC Vendor.

To make matters worse, several of the key ingredients for making the Rank 9 Armor are items that have to originally be purchased in that Game’s Cash Shop. They do not drop off of monsters in the game. Which means that unless someone, somewhere along the line purchases these items, then not one Rank 9 Armored individual will exist.

To further make matters worse, several people in that game have made it their life’s goal to become rich by buying these items off of the cash shop in bulk, and then selling them to other players in their bazaar’s for exorbitant prices. Complicating matters is that the Gold to In-Game Currency Exchange system in that game is 100% Player Controlled, and is not regulated by the company AT ALL. Unlike in Guild Wars 2 where it is at least somewhat regulated.

This means that it costs approximately 100,000 of the In Game Currency (possibly more by now) to buy a single Gold. And that Gold transfers into the In-Game Currency for about 90,000 of the In-Game Currency. Meaning that no matter what you do you lose money when transferring the in-game currency into gold. Making farming for these items a futile effort.

That is what a Pay To Win game is all about. They make you pay real money for the best armor and weapons in the game, no matter what you do in the game. Guild Wars 2 has largely avoided doing this. That is why Guild Wars 2 is not a Pay To Win Game.

There is no way Gw2 is pay to win. Instant repair canisters and revival orbs? Are you kidding me? The PvE isn’t so hard that you will actually ever need need these.

Crafting boosters, magic find etc? No, they are not P2W. Oh sure they give some benefit, but not for long and you have to work for it. Content of crafting + loot is easy, it’s not like these boosters do much for it.

Gems being expensive isn’t P2W. Of course it will rise in price, but it’s not like gems can buy us anything special that will improve our damage and alike.

P2W is when you can literally buy damage. The higher your damage is, the more people will want you. If you don’t have any damage increase, no one will take you. This forces players to BUY to WIN.

In Gw2 you can buy stuff for gems, or spend time grinding, for what now? Hardly anything at all. Yes, new players don’t have much gold but its easy to get the gold to get those items needed.
Ascended and legendary is not enough stat increase for people to actually not party up with people who don’t have it.

If anyone actually played a P2W, then you would know what a real life money sink it is. Gw2 might be in game gold money sink, but that’s how games work. You can’t expect to get everything for almost nothing, some items require work to get and this is fine. As long as it does not progress further than these ascended and legendaries, we will be ok.

AntiGw.9367:

Ashen.2907:

An Siorai Tharian.4516:

Also, I would like to point out that Ascended and Legendary Gear only provides about a 5% bonus to a player characters vital stats when compared to Exotic Gear. That is not enough to be considered a “Significant” bonus. At least not when compared to the large gap in power between a Perfect World International Player who is wearing a full set of Rank 9 Second Recast Armor with Interval Stats, when compared to a player who is simply wearing Standard Rank 9 Armor.

The fact that one can obtain more significant advantage in another game does not make 5% not significant here.

5% is not significant enough to be considered p2w. It’s a minimal difference that gives a fairly equal chance to win.

p2w means you have minimal chance to win against someone with a bigger wallet, if you have a chance at all. p2w means anything from 30-50% difference in power to outright one-shotting of non-paying players.

To clarify, I am not claiming that GW2 is P2W. I am not claiming that 5% is P2W. What I did say was that just because the differential is greater in another game does not mean that 5% is an insignificant boost in this game. Regardless, that 5% difference can be earned in game without spending a dime in GW2 and so it is not P2W.

I disagree with your 30-50% claims. If paying real world money grants a statistical advantage not available to those not spending money it is P2W no matter how small the advantage. This situation does not apply in GW2.

milo.6942:

this game is P2AG
pay to avoid grind
there is no way to “win” in this game
the gem operation is borderline P2W but so far it is mostly fine.
mostly the problem is legendaries that can be bought

The term “pain” often comes when reading articles on F2P cash shops. The pain is something players don’t enjoy or aren’t engaged to do to earn something desirable. This can be anything from gating content behind tokens a la Candy Crush Saga, Gating gear progression behind a RNG progression or gating better gear behind grind. The P2W aspects of those cash shops lie in the goods that the sell specifically to reduce the amount of pain that their patrons experience. Candy Crush sells tokens to allow you to continue and most korean P2W games sell items that reduce or negate the effects of failed upgrading.

In GW2 Ascended acts as the goal and anyone chasing after it is subjected to time games and grind, in other words the pain. Gold acts as the pain reliever as you can bypass crafting time gates and get your gear much quicker. You can of course earn gold through playing, but it’s often less painful to buy gold via real life money. It’s very much P2W, but not as obvious or severe as, say, PWI’s scheme.

Personally, I agree with you that no player is technically winning in the process ;]

DownPour.5903:

Ascended and legendary is not enough stat increase for people to actually not party up with people who don’t have it.

It’s still new, given the zerker only listings in LFG I won’t be surprised if it goes ascended zerker only in a month or two.