Guild Wars 2

Of course it’s not pay to win. I played a game once, forget the name, that was a space shooter type of game. You played through a leveling area, growing your ships, gathering resources and blowing people up, kind of a micro-EveOnline (with no wheres near the sophistication). However, once you maxed out (which took far too long), that was it. Unless, of course, you bought the ship they were selling, which was vastly superior to the best you could get in game. No comparison. To compete, you bought this ship. Oh… and the expendable ammo they sold. It was twice as powerful as the best you could get without cash. That is pure pay to win. To compete, you were forced to open the wallet.

Anyone suggesting that GW2 is even remotely pay to win makes me wonder if they’re either lacking in gaming experience (never actually experienced pay to win) or simply posting known fallacies for the sake of either generating arguments for fun or for bashing the game.

Guild Wars 2 is not even remotely pay to win. This discussion is not even worth having.

VOLKON.1290:

Of course it’s not pay to win. I played a game once, forget the name, that was a space shooter type of game. You played through a leveling area, growing your ships, gathering resources and blowing people up, kind of a micro-EveOnline (with no wheres near the sophistication). However, once you maxed out (which took far too long), that was it. Unless, of course, you bought the ship they were selling, which was vastly superior to the best you could get in game. No comparison. To compete, you bought this ship. Oh… and the expendable ammo they sold. It was twice as powerful as the best you could get without cash. That is pure pay to win. To compete, you were forced to open the wallet.

Anyone suggesting that GW2 is even remotely pay to win makes me wonder if they’re either lacking in gaming experience (never actually experienced pay to win) or simply posting known fallacies for the sake of either generating arguments for fun or for bashing the game.

Guild Wars 2 is not even remotely pay to win. This discussion is not even worth having.

I agree! Loud noises and denial!

VOLKON.1290:

Guild Wars 2 is not even remotely pay to win. This discussion is not even worth having.

No one forces you to discuss it. Nevertheless, thanks for forcing your view onto us.

Cheers

Corpus Christi.2057:

VOLKON.1290:

Guild Wars 2 is not even remotely pay to win. This discussion is not even worth having.

No one forces you to discuss it. Nevertheless, thanks for forcing your view onto us.

Cheers

A pleasure. Of course, I wouldn’t do it if I wasn’t right.

You cannot buy win.

Oh, and here’s the best part that people completely forget… even if you bought the materials for ascended gear using gold you got from converting gems… you’re not buying the materials from ArenaNet. You’re buying them from other players.

I’ll bet those that actually think there’s a P2W element in the game are incapable of understanding the significance of that simple, basic fact.

Although lately they’ve been pushing cashshop advantages a bit, it’s still not pay 2 win.

Play the mmo rappelz(free to play, pay to win – last part is a forum joke, but a true one). Once you’ve done that, you will realize how far away guild wars 2 is from pay to win.

In that game you must gamble to get extra stats. The gamble attempts cost 4 dollar to protect (so your armor doenst break) and 12 dollar to repair it. For pets this is a whopping 12 dollar pet pet attempt. Dragons (pets) are incredible rare and hard to ‘tame’ (you must use a skill to tame pets, but if it fails your ‘empty pet card’, gets destroyed, rather then filled with a pet soul, so you can have the pet. Basically if you want to win, you must pay 500+ dollars/euro’s AT LEAST to be viable. What’s more, you must repeat this process for over 7 ranks. (1-20, 21-50; 51-80, 81-100; 101-120, 121-150). The first 3 could be said to be irrelevant but even there weak gear will slow you down tremendous and costs a ton. The last 3 will cost craploads of money. Say 2x Asended armor cost at least.

Important items like weapons, pet cards, cash shop items, inflated from mere 200 000 ingame money to 70.000.000.000 in the trade post. You still earn gold same speed, but glitch abusers, chinese gold sellers, inflated the market about 10000x (price increase). To even stand a chance these days you must pay 2000-3000 dollars to be viable, and you still aren’t meta by then. Farming your gold doenst work anymore if you gotta start from scratch.

Conclusion (for me) guild wars 2 by far isn’t a pay to win game. For the sake of arguments people can say it is (like because XP boosters), but in essence it’s a total lie.

VOLKON.1290:

Corpus Christi.2057:

VOLKON.1290:

Guild Wars 2 is not even remotely pay to win. This discussion is not even worth having.

No one forces you to discuss it. Nevertheless, thanks for forcing your view onto us.

Cheers

A pleasure. Of course, I wouldn’t do it if I wasn’t right.

You cannot buy win.

Oh, and here’s the best part that people completely forget… even if you bought the materials for ascended gear using gold you got from converting gems… you’re not buying the materials from ArenaNet. You’re buying them from other players.

I’ll bet those that actually think there’s a P2W element in the game are incapable of understanding the significance of that simple, basic fact.

Your ignorance is a bliss, really. Please, allow me to copy-paste your post to another thread.

Thanks again!:)

Of course it is P2W. But no one will ever admit that. The “line” that can’t be crossed is just moved every time it is crossed. No one would play a P2W game because it is “wrong”. So everytime GW2 crosses the line into P2W people just conveniently move the line to something else.

They will use defenses like: well clearly you have never played that other P2W game"

Yet you will notice none of them actually name another game. And even if they were to mention another game it would be some indie game that no one has ever heard of and has like 12 players.

There are 3 what I call barriers of entry into P2W.

1. Cosmetic: in a raiding game where stats are what matters cosmetic is clearly not P2W. However in a game where the only goal of the game is to get a cool outfit it is not as clear. This is the only level I would call “acceptable”.

2. Convenience. Before launch of GW2 this was considered “the line”. Cosmetic was ok, but as soon as something gave you a time advantage over someone else that would “clearly” be P2W. We now have infinite gathering tools, infinite continue coin, infinite salvage kits, upgrade extractor, etc, etc. Basically things that were poorly designed in the game in order to push people to buy a gem store item. Of course people wanted to justify their purchase of these items so the line conveniently moved.

3. Stat advantage. People say this is now the line until you point out that is has also been crossed then they move it again on you. Strength boosters, regen boosters, speed boosters, and armor boosters, can all be acquired through RNG in the gem store. They give a 5% boost to all your stats and work in both PvE and WvW. This is a direct violation of the so called “line” but once you point this out people will say that 5% doesn’t count or since it doesn’t also include sPvP it doesn’t count.

So as you can see, no matter how P2W GW2 actually is most people will use any means they can to tell you that you are wrong in order to justify their playing and buying into a P2W game.

Corpus Christi.2057:

VOLKON.1290:

Corpus Christi.2057:

VOLKON.1290:

Guild Wars 2 is not even remotely pay to win. This discussion is not even worth having.

No one forces you to discuss it. Nevertheless, thanks for forcing your view onto us.

Cheers

A pleasure. Of course, I wouldn’t do it if I wasn’t right.

You cannot buy win.

Oh, and here’s the best part that people completely forget… even if you bought the materials for ascended gear using gold you got from converting gems… you’re not buying the materials from ArenaNet. You’re buying them from other players.

I’ll bet those that actually think there’s a P2W element in the game are incapable of understanding the significance of that simple, basic fact.

Your ignorance is a bliss, really. Please, allow me to copy-paste your post to another thread.

Thanks again!:)

Go right ahead. When you do, try to explain the concepts of new power only acquirable from the company vs existing power transferred between players as well.

You flatter me with your special interest.

VOLKON.1290:

Corpus Christi.2057:

VOLKON.1290:

Corpus Christi.2057:

VOLKON.1290:

Guild Wars 2 is not even remotely pay to win. This discussion is not even worth having.

No one forces you to discuss it. Nevertheless, thanks for forcing your view onto us.

Cheers

A pleasure. Of course, I wouldn’t do it if I wasn’t right.

You cannot buy win.

Oh, and here’s the best part that people completely forget… even if you bought the materials for ascended gear using gold you got from converting gems… you’re not buying the materials from ArenaNet. You’re buying them from other players.

I’ll bet those that actually think there’s a P2W element in the game are incapable of understanding the significance of that simple, basic fact.

Your ignorance is a bliss, really. Please, allow me to copy-paste your post to another thread.

Thanks again!:)

Go right ahead. When you do, try to explain the concepts of new power only acquirable from the company vs existing power transferred between players as well.

You flatter me with your special interest.

You will be famous, mate! Keep up the good work!

Best regards

Protoavis.9107:

DownPour.5903:

Ascended and legendary is not enough stat increase for people to actually not party up with people who don’t have it.

It’s still new, given the zerker only listings in LFG I won’t be surprised if it goes ascended zerker only in a month or two.

Yes, but then again, those people are just being silly. Just because all they want is to force through content, good for them. Better just ignore them and start your own group.

There will be plenty of people without ascended gear, and they will do equally fine without them. It isn’t the game itself being unfair, it’s the player.

Corpus Christi.2057:

VOLKON.1290:

Corpus Christi.2057:

VOLKON.1290:

Corpus Christi.2057:

VOLKON.1290:

Guild Wars 2 is not even remotely pay to win. This discussion is not even worth having.

No one forces you to discuss it. Nevertheless, thanks for forcing your view onto us.

Cheers

A pleasure. Of course, I wouldn’t do it if I wasn’t right.

You cannot buy win.

Oh, and here’s the best part that people completely forget… even if you bought the materials for ascended gear using gold you got from converting gems… you’re not buying the materials from ArenaNet. You’re buying them from other players.

I’ll bet those that actually think there’s a P2W element in the game are incapable of understanding the significance of that simple, basic fact.

Your ignorance is a bliss, really. Please, allow me to copy-paste your post to another thread.

Thanks again!:)

Go right ahead. When you do, try to explain the concepts of new power only acquirable from the company vs existing power transferred between players as well.

You flatter me with your special interest.

You will be famous, mate! Keep up the good work!

Best regards

Well dang. I thought I already was.

VOLKON.1290:

Corpus Christi.2057:

VOLKON.1290:

Guild Wars 2 is not even remotely pay to win. This discussion is not even worth having.

No one forces you to discuss it. Nevertheless, thanks for forcing your view onto us.

Cheers

A pleasure. Of course, I wouldn’t do it if I wasn’t right.

You cannot buy win.

Oh, and here’s the best part that people completely forget… even if you bought the materials for ascended gear using gold you got from converting gems… you’re not buying the materials from ArenaNet. You’re buying them from other players.

I’ll bet those that actually think there’s a P2W element in the game are incapable of understanding the significance of that simple, basic fact.

You can buy gold to purchase materials from ANet if you don’t want to go through the pain of grinding. In fact, in many games there are ways you can trade cash only items for goods earned within the games, a process that’s not so dissimilar from trading bought gold.

DownPour.5903:

Protoavis.9107:

DownPour.5903:

Ascended and legendary is not enough stat increase for people to actually not party up with people who don’t have it.

It’s still new, given the zerker only listings in LFG I won’t be surprised if it goes ascended zerker only in a month or two.

Yes, but then again, those people are just being silly. Just because all they want is to force through content, good for them. Better just ignore them and start your own group.

There will be plenty of people without ascended gear, and they will do equally fine without them. It isn’t the game itself being unfair, it’s the player.

If we’re looking at zerkers, there’s around 15% increase in offensive power. That’s justifiable increase in speed runs, especially when the objective is to get loot/gold as fast as possible. Though it is true that there will be groups who aren’t so demanding as to make you ping your gear.

People think gw2 is p2w?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FopyRHHlt3M

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Of course it is P2W. But no one will ever admit that. The “line” that can’t be crossed is just moved every time it is crossed. No one would play a P2W game because it is “wrong”. So everytime GW2 crosses the line into P2W people just conveniently move the line to something else.

No, actually this has not happened. People keep pointing out the same accurate reasons why the game is not pay to win. You can get the same advantages without paying as you can by spending real world currency. Currently there is nothing you can get with real world currency that you cannot also get with in game without spending money. The reverse is not true.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

They will use defenses like: well clearly you have never played that other P2W game"

Yet you will notice none of them actually name another game. And even if they were to mention another game it would be some indie game that no one has ever heard of and has like 12 players.

And yet people have named another game and it is neither an indie game, nor a game that no one has ever heard of, and it does have a significant population.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

3. Stat advantage. People say this is now the line until you point out that is has also been crossed then they move it again on you. Strength boosters, regen boosters, speed boosters, and armor boosters, can all be acquired through RNG in the gem store. They give a 5% boost to all your stats and work in both PvE and WvW. This is a direct violation of the so called “line” but once you point this out people will say that 5% doesn’t count or since it doesn’t also include sPvP it doesn’t count.

You don’t need to pay money to get any of the things you mention. If you don’t have to pay for the item it is not pay to win. If I could not reasonably get those items without spending real world currency you would be right.

By your logic low level basic white gear is pay to win because I can choose to buy gems, convert to gold, and buy said gear if I wanted to, even though I can get it through game play.

TwoBit.5903:

VOLKON.1290:

Corpus Christi.2057:

VOLKON.1290:

Guild Wars 2 is not even remotely pay to win. This discussion is not even worth having.

No one forces you to discuss it. Nevertheless, thanks for forcing your view onto us.

Cheers

A pleasure. Of course, I wouldn’t do it if I wasn’t right.

You cannot buy win.

Oh, and here’s the best part that people completely forget… even if you bought the materials for ascended gear using gold you got from converting gems… you’re not buying the materials from ArenaNet. You’re buying them from other players.

I’ll bet those that actually think there’s a P2W element in the game are incapable of understanding the significance of that simple, basic fact.

You can buy gold to purchase materials from ANet if you don’t want to go through the pain of grinding. In fact, in many games there are ways you can trade cash only items for goods earned within the games, a process that’s not so dissimilar from trading bought gold.

What mats are being sold in the cash shop that are needed to craft ascended gear? Am I missing something here? All the materials on the trading post are there because players put them there, not ANet.

VOLKON.1290:

TwoBit.5903:

VOLKON.1290:

Corpus Christi.2057:

VOLKON.1290:

Guild Wars 2 is not even remotely pay to win. This discussion is not even worth having.

No one forces you to discuss it. Nevertheless, thanks for forcing your view onto us.

Cheers

A pleasure. Of course, I wouldn’t do it if I wasn’t right.

You cannot buy win.

Oh, and here’s the best part that people completely forget… even if you bought the materials for ascended gear using gold you got from converting gems… you’re not buying the materials from ArenaNet. You’re buying them from other players.

I’ll bet those that actually think there’s a P2W element in the game are incapable of understanding the significance of that simple, basic fact.

You can buy gold to purchase materials from ANet if you don’t want to go through the pain of grinding. In fact, in many games there are ways you can trade cash only items for goods earned within the games, a process that’s not so dissimilar from trading bought gold.

What mats are being sold in the cash shop that are needed to craft ascended gear? Am I missing something here? All the materials on the trading post are there because players put them there, not ANet.

Anet designed the trading post in mind to take advantage of the fact? So they can sell gems to help people to buy those materials? To reduce the pain? 2+2= 4?

No it cant….why does people still ask about this..

TwoBit.5903:

VOLKON.1290:

TwoBit.5903:

VOLKON.1290:

Corpus Christi.2057:

VOLKON.1290:

Guild Wars 2 is not even remotely pay to win. This discussion is not even worth having.

No one forces you to discuss it. Nevertheless, thanks for forcing your view onto us.

Cheers

A pleasure. Of course, I wouldn’t do it if I wasn’t right.

You cannot buy win.

Oh, and here’s the best part that people completely forget… even if you bought the materials for ascended gear using gold you got from converting gems… you’re not buying the materials from ArenaNet. You’re buying them from other players.

I’ll bet those that actually think there’s a P2W element in the game are incapable of understanding the significance of that simple, basic fact.

You can buy gold to purchase materials from ANet if you don’t want to go through the pain of grinding. In fact, in many games there are ways you can trade cash only items for goods earned within the games, a process that’s not so dissimilar from trading bought gold.

What mats are being sold in the cash shop that are needed to craft ascended gear? Am I missing something here? All the materials on the trading post are there because players put them there, not ANet.

Anet designed the trading post in mind to take advantage of the fact? So they can sell gems to help people to buy those materials? To reduce the pain?

Oh, that’s right, you’re using the wrong definition of pay to win to try and make your argument. Sorry for the misunderstanding. Let’s shift back to the real definition. Show me something on the cash shop you must buy to compete.

VOLKON.1290:

TwoBit.5903:

VOLKON.1290:

TwoBit.5903:

VOLKON.1290:

Corpus Christi.2057:

VOLKON.1290:

Guild Wars 2 is not even remotely pay to win. This discussion is not even worth having.

No one forces you to discuss it. Nevertheless, thanks for forcing your view onto us.

Cheers

A pleasure. Of course, I wouldn’t do it if I wasn’t right.

You cannot buy win.

Oh, and here’s the best part that people completely forget… even if you bought the materials for ascended gear using gold you got from converting gems… you’re not buying the materials from ArenaNet. You’re buying them from other players.

I’ll bet those that actually think there’s a P2W element in the game are incapable of understanding the significance of that simple, basic fact.

You can buy gold to purchase materials from ANet if you don’t want to go through the pain of grinding. In fact, in many games there are ways you can trade cash only items for goods earned within the games, a process that’s not so dissimilar from trading bought gold.

What mats are being sold in the cash shop that are needed to craft ascended gear? Am I missing something here? All the materials on the trading post are there because players put them there, not ANet.

Anet designed the trading post in mind to take advantage of the fact? So they can sell gems to help people to buy those materials? To reduce the pain?

Oh, that’s right, you’re using the wrong definition of pay to win to try and make your argument. Sorry for the misunderstanding. Let’s shift back to the real definition. Show me something on the cash shop you must buy to compete.

None, but that’s not how most pay to win cash shops work.
http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/RaminShokrizade/20130626/194933/

Reading is cool, kids.

TwoBit.5903:

VOLKON.1290:

TwoBit.5903:

VOLKON.1290:

TwoBit.5903:

VOLKON.1290:

Corpus Christi.2057:

VOLKON.1290:

Guild Wars 2 is not even remotely pay to win. This discussion is not even worth having.

No one forces you to discuss it. Nevertheless, thanks for forcing your view onto us.

Cheers

A pleasure. Of course, I wouldn’t do it if I wasn’t right.

You cannot buy win.

Oh, and here’s the best part that people completely forget… even if you bought the materials for ascended gear using gold you got from converting gems… you’re not buying the materials from ArenaNet. You’re buying them from other players.

I’ll bet those that actually think there’s a P2W element in the game are incapable of understanding the significance of that simple, basic fact.

You can buy gold to purchase materials from ANet if you don’t want to go through the pain of grinding. In fact, in many games there are ways you can trade cash only items for goods earned within the games, a process that’s not so dissimilar from trading bought gold.

What mats are being sold in the cash shop that are needed to craft ascended gear? Am I missing something here? All the materials on the trading post are there because players put them there, not ANet.

Anet designed the trading post in mind to take advantage of the fact? So they can sell gems to help people to buy those materials? To reduce the pain?

Oh, that’s right, you’re using the wrong definition of pay to win to try and make your argument. Sorry for the misunderstanding. Let’s shift back to the real definition. Show me something on the cash shop you must buy to compete.

None, but that’s not how most pay to win cash shops work.
http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/RaminShokrizade/20130626/194933/

Reading is cool, kids.

It surprisingly fitting the description of this game ……

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Of course it is P2W. But no one will ever admit that. The “line” that can’t be crossed is just moved every time it is crossed. No one would play a P2W game because it is “wrong”. So everytime GW2 crosses the line into P2W people just conveniently move the line to something else.

They will use defenses like: well clearly you have never played that other P2W game"

Yet you will notice none of them actually name another game. And even if they were to mention another game it would be some indie game that no one has ever heard of and has like 12 players.

There are 3 what I call barriers of entry into P2W.

1. Cosmetic: in a raiding game where stats are what matters cosmetic is clearly not P2W. However in a game where the only goal of the game is to get a cool outfit it is not as clear. This is the only level I would call “acceptable”.

2. Convenience. Before launch of GW2 this was considered “the line”. Cosmetic was ok, but as soon as something gave you a time advantage over someone else that would “clearly” be P2W. We now have infinite gathering tools, infinite continue coin, infinite salvage kits, upgrade extractor, etc, etc. Basically things that were poorly designed in the game in order to push people to buy a gem store item. Of course people wanted to justify their purchase of these items so the line conveniently moved.

3. Stat advantage. People say this is now the line until you point out that is has also been crossed then they move it again on you. Strength boosters, regen boosters, speed boosters, and armor boosters, can all be acquired through RNG in the gem store. They give a 5% boost to all your stats and work in both PvE and WvW. This is a direct violation of the so called “line” but once you point this out people will say that 5% doesn’t count or since it doesn’t also include sPvP it doesn’t count.

So as you can see, no matter how P2W GW2 actually is most people will use any means they can to tell you that you are wrong in order to justify their playing and buying into a P2W game.

Basically this^

Ofc it can be. The severity of it does not matter when answering a yes or no question. Is it? or Is it not? Is there an advantage or not…yes or no? Changing out “advantage” for a synonym like “convenience” does not change the answer.

Now if the question was “To what level is it P2W?”, then we have the can of worms to which most try to argue in this yes or no question.

Guildwars 2 is basically P4Endgame which is vanity cosmetic dress up time. Someday it may become pay2win which usually means $=Power within the game world(See perfect world $2000+ entry fee to be geared+RNG packs for top tier gear that would take 10 years to grind if you tried to obtain it). Some of these boosters you get are indeed a source of power but they aren’t really giving you a boost against other players most PvP situations boil down to player skill+class balance/capabilities.

When the day comes that you can pull out the wallet and buy a full set of legendary gear for a toon that just hit 80 with gems for far cheaper than what the grind is to create said set, than the game would have became p2win.

However this still doesn’t mean i agree with constantly adding items that the player base has desired as gem-store only introductions. I think its in poor taste and not very good for player faith in arena-net especially with other big named titles coming in the near future. I think there should be an alternative one time purchases per toon that enables you to show off any cosmetic changes by simply dragging a piece of gear into a vanity slot.
They should also allow the mix of heavy,med,light armors in this vanity slot and simply make it clear through the UI what kind of class the other player you’re fighting is that would allow players to make even more custom sets recycling old content into potentially new sets- just my 2 cents

TwoBit.5903:

VOLKON.1290:

Oh, that’s right, you’re using the wrong definition of pay to win to try and make your argument. Sorry for the misunderstanding. Let’s shift back to the real definition. Show me something on the cash shop you must buy to compete.

None, but that’s not how most pay to win cash shops work.
http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/RaminShokrizade/20130626/194933/

Reading is cool, kids.

Well that explains a lot. You’re now confusing monetization efforts (which can encompass pay to win) with pay to win in general.

No one can argue that there are some efforts in the shop that are designed to make money. Wouldn’t be much of a cash shop if it didn’t, would it? However, there is no pay to win, which is a specific subset of the whole.

We’re not talking about how cash shops work. We’re talking about pay to win. They are not the same thing.

I dont think many games are Pay 2 win anymore. I do think that you can throw real $$ at the game, much like Diablo 3(up until march that is) or Warframe, and get to the BiS gear quicker than someone who farms. But just giving the player the option to farm and grind it out eliminates the possibility of the game being pay 2 win. Even if the items would take months to craft, such as ascended gear being that you need to have a TON of materials that could be bought on the TP(which you could have bought gems, converted to gold and made this route quicker).

The ultimate deciding factor if a game is pay to win: If a statistical item or consumable or whatever is ONLY available on the cash shop and not available to be grinded out in game, it is pay to win. If you can grind it out in game, its not pay to win, technically.

VOLKON.1290:

TwoBit.5903:

VOLKON.1290:

Oh, that’s right, you’re using the wrong definition of pay to win to try and make your argument. Sorry for the misunderstanding. Let’s shift back to the real definition. Show me something on the cash shop you must buy to compete.

None, but that’s not how most pay to win cash shops work.
http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/RaminShokrizade/20130626/194933/

Reading is cool, kids.

Well that explains a lot. You’re now confusing monetization efforts (which can encompass pay to win) with pay to win in general.

No one can argue that there are some efforts in the shop that are designed to make money. Wouldn’t be much of a cash shop if it didn’t, would it? However, there is no pay to win, which is a specific subset of the whole.

We’re not talking about how cash shops work. We’re talking about pay to win. They are not the same thing.

Are you sure you don’t have the wrong definition. If it’s item or privilege exclusive to real money spending then its pay for access, not P2W.

TwoBit.5903:

Are you sure you don’t have the wrong definition. If it’s item or privilege exclusive to real money spending then its pay for access, not P2W.

An item that is exclusively available through a real money transaction, and which provides an advantage over those who do not possess it, is an example of pay to win.

If an item does not provide the mentioned advantage it is not pay to win.

If an item does not require the expenditure of real money it is not pay to win.

TwoBit.5903:

VOLKON.1290:

TwoBit.5903:

VOLKON.1290:

Oh, that’s right, you’re using the wrong definition of pay to win to try and make your argument. Sorry for the misunderstanding. Let’s shift back to the real definition. Show me something on the cash shop you must buy to compete.

None, but that’s not how most pay to win cash shops work.
http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/RaminShokrizade/20130626/194933/

Reading is cool, kids.

Well that explains a lot. You’re now confusing monetization efforts (which can encompass pay to win) with pay to win in general.

No one can argue that there are some efforts in the shop that are designed to make money. Wouldn’t be much of a cash shop if it didn’t, would it? However, there is no pay to win, which is a specific subset of the whole.

We’re not talking about how cash shops work. We’re talking about pay to win. They are not the same thing.

Are you sure you don’t have the wrong definition. If it’s item or privilege exclusive to real money spending then its pay for access, not P2W.

For access, yes. I’m talking about for power, for win. In the game I mentioned earlier you literally bought “win” by purchasing the best ships and ammo in the game, and they were only available for purchase.

Now, pay for access can be pay to win if it gates you to the best gear or the like. If it’s to access a dungeon, for example, that doesn’t offer better loot than it’s not pay to win but it’s a definite monetization move (after all, who doesn’t want access to the new content?).

Pay to win has always been, in the past, about actually being required to purchase power needed to be competitive in a PvP environment. However the definition has become watered down and stretched to no longer mean what it actually meant anymore due to the stigmatic effects of the term when applied to a game. Basically, if you can label a game pay to win, even if it isn’t, it applies a stigma to the game that can be difficult to shake and can turn people off of the game.

I reiterate:

P2W is NOT buying pretty skins to make you look different or buying boosts that get to from point A to point B faster than if you don’t buy them .

P2W is being FORCED to buy something with real world money in order to compete or complete content designed for said item.

GW2 is simply not P2W. There is literally NOTHING in the gem store that you cannot play without. There is no content in the game world that requires purchase of a gem-shop item. There is NOTHING in the gem shop that cannot be purchased with in-game funds.

Even if you feel that winning means buying skins or boosters, you still don’t have to spend real world money unless you wish to.

GW2 is pay to get everything before other have it

I think the discussion comes down to what we can describe as ‘Win’.

AS much as people here try to deny it, Skins and now ascended are PVE end game. What else if not? What do you play PVE for? Let me know.

Now let’s see. Take a game like Mario. Yep, I know it is a single player game. Say Nintendo starts selling store items to ‘shortcut’ the levels and put ridiculously long levels in the game. Mario is about ending levels. You pay for them you are paying to win.

Why everyone here brings down ‘winning’ in PVE as something that has to be compared to what other players can do? This is nonsense.

Most of PVE content can be skipped with gold and gold can be purchased. You do not win ‘against’ others : you win the game. That it can be done so too in game does not change the fact that gems to gold conversion is an instant ‘WIN’ for PVE content.

The only grey zone is about the fact that ‘buying’ PVE content is not forced.
In GW2 PVE you are not ‘forced’ to P2W BUT vou can P2W.
It’s possible and you can do it, and somehow undermines the efforts of those that decide to ‘play’ the game in my opinion.

- You can buy dungeon paths
- You can buy 80% of ascended materials
- You can buy stat boosting food
- You can buy almost any skin in the game

All PVE is for sale. And the fact that you can do without credit card does not erase the fact that the possibility exists. P2W exists in GW2 as long as you can bypass PVE with gold and you can change gems to gold.

Now we can argue for years about what winning in PVE means. For me, and for many others, winning PVE was about skins, and now ascended. I don’t know what winning is for you all.

From what I have read the definition of pay to win can be stretched and modified to fit whatever you want. By some of the definitions I have read any game that has a sub is pay to win since if you stop paying you no longer have access to your account thus lose. The gem store is their main source of income, they have stated publicly that the income generated is more that they had calculated a sub format would have brought in.
They have absolutely nothing in the gem store that could be used to make the pay to win argument without some amazing mental gymnastics.

So this is probably required reading: http://us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/forum/topic/10195910049

GW2 is category 3

Protoavis.9107:

While I agree it’s far from that, it doesn’t mean GW2 isn’t pay to win either. I mean, if I use an analogy, say I’m driving my car 5mph (or kmph, take your pick) over the speed limit and someone else is driving 100mph over the speed limit, the difference in degree of speed doesn’t mean I’m not speeding, both of us are going to get a ticket.

No. Noone is winning in that scenario. Noone paid to be better, the analogy doesn’t apply.
If you buy a legendary and I am in easily farmed Exotics, and we fight 1vs1, you will not beat me based on that little boost Legendary has. It will come down to skill, knowledge of how to use your class.

In a P2W, like Perfect World, if you buy Rank9 gear and I am using game-farmed TT-gear and we go we 1vs1. You will 1 or 2 shot me everytime. I have zero chance of beating you. You don’t even have to know your class or what skills even do. That’s paying to win. You press a button and people die. You bought god-mode.

It stretched even into PvE that limited people with in-game gear from even running those dungeons.
You can farm months and months and months in-game for gear, then someone who just got the game comes on, charges $1500, instantly has better gear than you can even farm and steamrolls your face.
Not to mention that Ascended and Legendary both are fully farmable in game (Ascended moreso than legendary, but share stats)
There is nothing in GW2 that compares to a P2W system.

Pay-to-win means you are buying to win at something. You can buy boosters, you can buy Legendary by converting cash to gold. None of that will make you ‘win’ at anything in GW2 that someone cannot do with whats farmable in game.
What you guys are arguing as pay-to-win, simply isn’t. It is not semantics, its lack of experience with an actual pay-to-win system.
I get what you guys are trying to say, but anyone charging real money here is not winning at anything. They are flashier, and have more conveniences, but they are not able to do anything better than someone who does not charge. They can still be killed by someone who does not charge. They have all the same limitations in dungeons. They have the same PvE experience. The gameplay is the same.

Pay-to-win is the separation of gameplay between cashshop users and non-cashshop users. There is no separation in GW2. No one is limited or advantaged by it.
The only differences are how pretty you are doing these things and how many conveniences you have. The only separation in GW2 is showing off how rich you are, with skins, with Legendary, with conveniences. Sorry, but your flashy prettiness isn’t going kill me any better or faster. Or let you solo that dungeon.
This needs a new term, because P2W does not fit it. And if you ever played a P2W, you would agree and not be arguing semantics for a term that does not fit to GW2.

milo.6942:

So this is probably required reading: http://us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/forum/topic/10195910049

GW2 is category 3

Subjective : I would say GW2 is category 2. It Allows HUGE time advantage. But this applies only to PVE though.

Nope. It helps that I use gold for all my gem purchases, and if I ever want a key I just run a new character through their personal story. Play2Win.

" pay-to-win

Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying."

Real money is a convenience in GW2, because people with skill are easily on par or still better than those that play via their credit card. Cash cannot give you the skill to be good, and the various boosters et all that you can purchase are not enough to bridge the gap between a truly skilled and good player, vs the convenience player.

Cash can make you look pretty though, but that’s not ‘p2w.’

I think people don t need to invent definitions already existing on Wikipedia and by VG reviewers

take wiki deinition of P2W
take gamasutra

can both be applied to this game?
I think undeniably yes….

Do you have another reliable source with a better definition?
Link it..don t invent your own to prove your point “raising the bar” as someone already mentioned even before you tried…or .you are just proving our point.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

" pay-to-win

Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying."

Real money is a convenience in GW2, because people with skill are easily on par or still better than those that play via their credit card. Cash cannot give you the skill to be good, and the various boosters et all that you can purchase are not enough to bridge the gap between a truly skilled and good player, vs the convenience player.

Cash can make you look pretty though, but that’s not ‘p2w.’

You can buy gold…and that is what happening with ascnded armors and legendaries….

Skill is not involved

We can say that GW2 PvE and WWW are P2W.
PvP is not….(well glory boosters aside)

Tamaki Revolution.3548:

Nope. It helps that I use gold for all my gem purchases, and if I ever want a key I just run a new character through their personal story. Play2Win.

which is at the cost of your time.

I’m not sure why you people keep changing the meaning of words, I mean come on it’s like using the wrong meme in a context, learn your memes.
P2W has and will always be:
- buying armors and weapons with astronomical stats that can not be found in game or that can be found but under a 0.0000000001% drop, and it can’t be crafted.
- “elixirs” or “skill cubes” or whatever you wanna call them that “allow” you to safely enchant a weapon or armor over… lets say +10 and where not using one of the said items equals to a 90% fail rate.
A P2W model can be applied in a place where PvE and PvP mingle more than our crappy WvWvW
People buy crap with astronimical stats in different games because they like going out griefing and PKing. People buy said stats because they get an ENORMOUS (not a measly 5%) advantage when they wanna PK in towns and not get hurt by the guards, or they “dungeon fight” or whatever other mechanic older games had implemented (some of you carebears probably don’t even know what PK means…)

Long story short:
People can buy that 5% stats increase but so far GW2 can’t be called P2W because everything is availabe ingame. I spend, say 200 euros, convert them and I get my ascended stats today. You can just play for a month or two and you’ll get them them. It’s not like you can only get ascended weapons and armor this week, it’ll stay forever… Ascended armors and weapons can’t be compared with that 0.000000001% drop chance I was talking about above, and everything CAN be crafted.
You can call it P2LookPretty but definitely not P2W.

EDIT:
“Ooh but I’m a casual and I can only play 2 hours a week, it’ll take more more than 2 months to get me my ascended armor and weapon. You talk like that because you probably play 200 hours a week and already have everything”

No, I have no ascended weapons nor armor, and I’m not even trying to get them. I have a legendary because I worked for it and got it in around 1500 hours of gameplay by hoarding everything while I was having fun and buying the precursor on the tp.

So yeah,

DEAL WITH IT

Yes, GW2 is very P2W oriented. It is no different than all the other Korean Grinders out there, sans a few key things like WvW.

Whether people like it or not, spending RL money in the in game cash shop gives you huge bonuses, which is the definition of P2W. The only way it wouldn’t be P2W is if the amount of time to farm something in game was proportionate to your IRL wages being able to buy you the same thing for the same amount of time. It’s a hard concept for most to understand, but any game that promotes the use of cash to get ahead of other players is most definitely P2W.

It’s not going to stop me from playing though, as other posters have mentioned the 5% stat increase isn’t enough to make the difference and push me away from the game, but at the same time it’s frustrating to know that if I really wanted to I could spend my RL money and bypass 75% of the game.

milo.6942:

Tamaki Revolution.3548:

Nope. It helps that I use gold for all my gem purchases, and if I ever want a key I just run a new character through their personal story. Play2Win.

which is at the cost of your time.

Yeah, and I spend that time enjoying myself :P

LordByron.8369:

You can buy gold…and that is what happening with ascnded armors and legendaries….

Skill is not involved

We can say that GW2 PvE and WWW are P2W.
PvP is not….(well glory boosters aside)

You can buy gold in every MMO. Thank you gold farmers. Therefore, by your logic every MMO is pay to win.

Although, purchasing gems and converting to gold that way is actually the least efficient way of obtaining gold in this game. Go Figure.

By your definition of pay to win, pretty much everything, is pay to win. Real life or otherwise.

Wow, this discussion again.

This is exactly what it comes down to:

The people that cannot afford/don’t want to spend money on the gem store for anything default to saying it is P2W to justify why they don’t have nice things. They see others with nice things and assume they must have just bought gems, converted to gold, and then bought the nice things on TP, thus, in their mind, those people paid to win.

They disregard the fact that everyone can accomplish the exact same thing without buying gems.

The repair canisters and rez orbs argument? Pay2Win generally implies you are getting a real advantage over others, not just a convenience. One repair canister saves the purchaser ~7-11silver in repair costs, but how much did that repair canister cost them in gems? More than 7-11silver. So how is that an advantage? That they spend even more money than everyone else so that they don’t have to use the repair NPCs that are practically everywhere? That’s a convenience (that hurts them financially), not an advantage. Rez orbs are practically useless unless you happen to die where there are no enemies. You can’t use them in WvWvW or PvP. So what advantage do they now have with rez orbs? They save the 2-3s for the WP cost and 20secs of running? That’s not an advantage, that’s a convenience. No one is “winning” anything because they didn’t have to WP that one time.

Crafting boosters, XP boosters, etc: pay to win? What are they winning? They can level up slightly faster? It’s not like they magically level passed 80. There’s a cap. Anyone who has played this game knows you can level fastest doing events/dungeons – neither of which are effected by boosters. If someone wants to buy an XP booster that gives 50% extra for kills, let them, it’s not leveling them faster than someone who didn’t buy the booster and simply does DEs and runs dungeons, therefore it is not an advantage over people who don’t purchase the item.

Skins are skins. The argument that skins are end-game, and if you can buy skins therefore it is P2W is just….bad. How can you people honestly say that with a straight face. P2W implies advantages, things that you must have to remain competitive. Skins have nothing to do with that and are items that, of all the items in the gem store, are the most appropriate to be sold for money. That’s how business works. You want something exclusive, you need to pay money. How the hell else would they make money? They can’t monetize happy feelings and rainbows.

The only tangible argument against gem store is the fact you can convert to gold to buy materials (from other players) to put towards a crafted Ascended item, or outright buying a Legendary. Everything else is just nonsense.

My perspective: I have literally everything I need for a Legendary except the precursor. I gathered everything up myself with my hard earned gold. I cannot afford the precursor (yet) and have not been lucky enough in the toilet to get one. I could buy gems, convert to gold, and voila I would have my precursor, and thus my Legendary. Or I could not buy gems and just keep farming and saving (at around 300g saved at the moment) and still get the precursor anyway. The fact that I have both options at my disposal inherently refutes the P2W argument. But I’m sure others could argue that the fact I can even purchase gems to convert to gold to facilitate the whole process is P2W.

There’s really no way to find compromise here. Either you think its P2W or you don’t. I personally don’t.

It’s the haves versus the have nots. The have nots don’t like that the haves can get the same items they can but much faster through paying for gems. The haves feel that just because they can get it faster doesn’t mean they “win”, since the have nots can still get the same exact items, it will just take longer and be more work. It really speaks a lot about our little society here. I guess I’m a have.

Tamaki Revolution.3548:

milo.6942:

Tamaki Revolution.3548:

Nope. It helps that I use gold for all my gem purchases, and if I ever want a key I just run a new character through their personal story. Play2Win.

which is at the cost of your time.

Yeah, and I spend that time enjoying myself :P

Yes exactly, and that’s just fine, but it does not change the nature of the game’s monetization scheme. It is a “soft pw2” strategy. GW2 is not a “true” p2w game, but it allows players to skip months of grind with a swipe of their credit card.

This is just one of those arguments where nobody really wins (or pays to win, har har) because both sides have a point. I’ve seen some games that are undenyably p2w (perfect world, maplestory…), but I feel that in GW2 it’s a bit more nuanced (for now).
Let’s take a look:

Objectively,…
…money gets you gold, and gold gets you equipment. Therefore someone with money can get more (different sets)/better (ascended) equipment easier. Therefore, real money gives you an edge.

…money gets you special services that take non-cash players too long to grind to effectively make use of (e.g. grinding gold for an hour to buy a single repair canister). Therefore, real money gives you an edge.

…money gets you gold, and this gives you an edge in general.

Subjectively…
…the difference between exotic & ascended is quite small and not very noticeable. It is also obtainable for regular players, given enough time.

…these services are rarely useful or even needed. Res orbs tend to be useless for ressing in the heat of battle due to revival sickness, instead of a repair canister there tends to be a repair station within reach (except fractals, which you leave and rejoin by relogging). You also get a fair stash for emergencies from achievement chests.

…playing the game normally tends to make you enough gold to be self-sufficient (without being incredibly inferior to someone who has a lot of gold).

By saying these are objective or subjective I’m not implying one is less valid than the other, however. So which side is right? Both, I guess. But I’m not sure what the purpose of trying to convince others is.

milo.6942:

Yes exactly, and that’s just fine, but it does not change the nature of the game’s monetization scheme. It is a “soft pw2” strategy. GW2 is not a “true” p2w game, but it allows players to skip months of grind with a swipe of their credit
card.

Ah true, but they’re paying for the game while I consider myself a freeloader :P As long as others are using their CC to keep the game running, I’m fine just spending more time.

VOLKON.1290:

For access, yes. I’m talking about for power, for win. In the game I mentioned earlier you literally bought “win” by purchasing the best ships and ammo in the game, and they were only available for purchase.

Now, pay for access can be pay to win if it gates you to the best gear or the like. If it’s to access a dungeon, for example, that doesn’t offer better loot than it’s not pay to win but it’s a definite monetization move (after all, who doesn’t want access to the new content?).

Pay to win has always been, in the past, about actually being required to purchase power needed to be competitive in a PvP environment. However the definition has become watered down and stretched to no longer mean what it actually meant anymore due to the stigmatic effects of the term when applied to a game. Basically, if you can label a game pay to win, even if it isn’t, it applies a stigma to the game that can be difficult to shake and can turn people off of the game.

+1.
I agree with VOLKON in everything he said.
I find funny how some players are getting the definition of P2W from some “not so reliable” websites, which explains the lack of experience regarding P2W games…

I played a game that i was FORCED to pay 50€/month just to stay at the same competitive level as someone else. Needing to pay 1000€ to enchant the gear to max level. Needed to spend more than 300€ for be able to run @ top speed. Clearly most of you that say this game is a P2W game, don’t have a kittening clue about what is a P2W game. But, i just want the answer to one question: What do you need to buy from the game shop to be able to stay at the same competitive level as someone else?

Aeonblade.8709:

Yes, GW2 is very P2W oriented. It is no different than all the other Korean Grinders out there, sans a few key things like WvW.

Whether people like it or not, spending RL money in the in game cash shop gives you huge bonuses, which is the definition of P2W. The only way it wouldn’t be P2W is if the amount of time to farm something in game was proportionate to your IRL wages being able to buy you the same thing for the same amount of time. It’s a hard concept for most to understand, but any game that promotes the use of cash to get ahead of other players is most definitely P2W.

I assume from that statement you have not played a Korean grinder. Even Legendary making is a cakewalk compared to some of the grind out there.
The cashshop here is not giving you huge advantages. You can get a few boosters and Ascended/Legendary. Both of which are farmable in game, and neither is needed to “win” at anything.
You can buy whatever you need to speed up your Ascended making process, go out into the world and someone with Exotics can still be far better than you in PvE and can still kill you in 1vs1 if you run into them in WvW. You haven’t bought the ability to win. You have bought the convenience of time. There is a difference there.

If said items gave you the ability to automatically guarantee you a win at anything, I would be inclined, but its simply not. Time is also a convenience, not a win.
The line to P2W isn’t a fuzzy one. If someone could buy a tier of gear that guaranteed them victory over anyone with exotics, then the line to P2W has been crossed. You simply cannot buy that kind of advantage here.

nowitsawn.1276:

This is just one of those arguments where nobody really wins (or pays to win, har har) because both sides have a point. I’ve seen some games that are undenyably p2w (perfect world, maplestory…), but I feel that in GW2 it’s a bit more nuanced (for now).
Let’s take a look:

Objectively,…
…money gets you gold, and gold gets you equipment. Therefore someone with money can get more (different sets)/better (ascended) equipment easier. Therefore, real money gives you an edge.

…money gets you special services that take non-cash players too long to grind to effectively make use of (e.g. grinding gold for an hour to buy a single repair canister). Therefore, real money gives you an edge.

…money gets you gold, and this gives you an edge in general.

Subjectively…
…the difference between exotic & ascended is quite small and not very noticeable. It is also obtainable for regular players, given enough time.

…these services are rarely useful or even needed. Res orbs tend to be useless for ressing in the heat of battle due to revival sickness, instead of a repair canister there tends to be a repair station within reach (except fractals, which you leave and rejoin by relogging). You also get a fair stash for emergencies from achievement chests.

…playing the game normally tends to make you enough gold to be self-sufficient (without being incredibly inferior to someone who has a lot of gold).

By saying these are objective or subjective I’m not implying one is less valid than the other, however. So which side is right? Both, I guess. But I’m not sure what the purpose of trying to convince others is.

And yet there are people that have already crafted their first entire set of ascended gear….without spending a dime of real life money….

Sure, real life money can speed up the process by giving you gold which you can use to purchase:
- the materials needed to level your crafting up
- some of the ascended materials

For a single set of ascended gear, you still have to play to acquire the 1500 bloodstone dust, 1500 dragonite ore, and 1500 empyreal shards. You need laurels, fractals, or karma for shards. You also need skill points ( few ways to get obviously) None of which can be acquired via a credit card, not to mention the conversions of the first three are timegated, which also cannot be bypassed by a credit card.

Having the convenience of a credit card only helps people with less time keep on par with the people that play extensively.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

And yet there are people that have already crafted their first entire set of ascended gear….without spending a dime of real life money….

Sure, real life money can speed up the process by giving you gold which you can use to purchase:
- the materials needed to level your crafting up
- some of the ascended materials

For a single set of ascended gear, you still have to play to acquire the 1500 bloodstone dust, 1500 dragonite ore, and 1500 empyreal shards. You need laurels, fractals, or karma for shards. You also need skill points ( few ways to get obviously) None of which can be acquired via a credit card, not to mention the conversions of the first three are timegated, which also cannot be bypassed by a credit card.

Having the convenience of a credit card only helps people with less time keep on par with the people that play extensively.

I think you missed the last line of my post there.

People having already crafted an entire set of ascended armor without using real money doesn’t really matter in this case because you had plenty of time to stockpile materials/gold beforehand. Fact is, if you’re making it from scratch, using real money will make it a bit easier.

But is the difference big enough to matter or not? Well, that’s up to you to decide. I’m a bit in the middle myself.