Guild Wars 2

ZudetGambeous.9573:

It’s funny watching all the champions of this game twist and turn and lie over and over and change definitions to defend their position. It’s pretty spectacular the level of denial this thread contains. All the people who realized this game was P2W left already and are waiting for an actual sub game where they hope they won’t be nickle and dimed for every last look and feature.

Please be specific as to the “lies” being told. I like to think myself an honest person, so you’d be helping me out greatly if you had some factual elements to your statement and not simple assertion. I’d appreciate it a lot.

An Siorai Tharian.4516:

Evelynddra.9265:

Also handy list of P2W games. Runes of Magic, LOTR, PWI, D3, Shayia, Aion (to an extent), I think Rift is not too, and basically any f2p Korean MMO.

I think you mean “any f2p Chinese MMO” because the most prominent of the games you just listed (Perfect World International) was actually designed and produced in China, not Korea.

That said, Aion and Guild Wars 2 are both owned by NC Soft, though Guild Wars 2 was developed by NC Soft’s division known as “Arena Net.” What this means is that Guild Wars 2 was developed by a company that is based in South Korea. That said, South Korea is a democratic state, just like the United States of America. Which means it is much more free than China or North Korea. So you really need to be careful when generalizing about games made in Korea, because you need to be specific about whether you are referring to games made in South Korea, or games made in North Korea. Because what is true of one, may not be true of the other.

No, I intentionally said “and any Korean” because the ones I listed before weren’t (except Aion). That’s why I said “and”. As I have played a few, and can’t remember the specific ones I just said any Korean F2P. As in my experience, they do tend to favor P2W cash shops.

I do know they are both owned by NCsoft. That said, ArenaNet are the ones who developed GW/2. They are a subsidiary of NCsoft. Located in the US. So no, it wasn’t actually developed by NCsoft. Whereas Aion is developed by NCSoft, and is indeed South Korean. That’s why new content for Aion has to be translated whereas new content for GW2 doesn’t.

I never really thought of specifying if it was made in South or North Korea, as I didn’t think it had any relevance. I’ll keep that in mind for the future then.

VOLKON.1290:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

It’s funny watching all the champions of this game twist and turn and lie over and over and change definitions to defend their position. It’s pretty spectacular the level of denial this thread contains. All the people who realized this game was P2W left already and are waiting for an actual sub game where they hope they won’t be nickle and dimed for every last look and feature.

Please be specific as to the “lies” being told. I like to think myself an honest person, so you’d be helping me out greatly if you had some factual elements to your statement and not simple assertion. I’d appreciate it a lot.

It only applies to you if you are a champion of this game. If you are, prepare to be farmed 24/7 for gold and loot.

LHound.8964:

VOLKON.1290:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

It’s funny watching all the champions of this game twist and turn and lie over and over and change definitions to defend their position. It’s pretty spectacular the level of denial this thread contains. All the people who realized this game was P2W left already and are waiting for an actual sub game where they hope they won’t be nickle and dimed for every last look and feature.

Please be specific as to the “lies” being told. I like to think myself an honest person, so you’d be helping me out greatly if you had some factual elements to your statement and not simple assertion. I’d appreciate it a lot.

It only applies to you if you are a champion of this game. If you are, prepare to be farmed 24/7 for gold and loot.

So I get an exemption for being Legendary?

VOLKON.1290:

So I get an exemption for being Legendary?

I think for that, your words will apply

VOLKON.1290:

…So you’d be helping me out greatly if you had some factual elements to your statement.

VOLKON.1290:

LHound.8964:

VOLKON.1290:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

It’s funny watching all the champions of this game twist and turn and lie over and over and change definitions to defend their position. It’s pretty spectacular the level of denial this thread contains. All the people who realized this game was P2W left already and are waiting for an actual sub game where they hope they won’t be nickle and dimed for every last look and feature.

Please be specific as to the “lies” being told. I like to think myself an honest person, so you’d be helping me out greatly if you had some factual elements to your statement and not simple assertion. I’d appreciate it a lot.

It only applies to you if you are a champion of this game. If you are, prepare to be farmed 24/7 for gold and loot.

So I get an exemption for being Legendary?

Could just be Epic erm Elite maybe..

It’s a pity we can’t take this discussion to a P2W game forum. The reactions from posters there might be instructive.

azizul.8469:

err.. you can buy ascended weapon/armor ? i don’t think you could.

if you want to give example, pls be factual.

ok lets change the ascended to Legendaries.

player A buys gem, convert to gold, and purchase the Legendary.
player B work his sweat day and night farming everything and make his Legendary.

how does that make player A win against player B. win in terms of what ? both have their Legendary in the end.

Till ascended weapons came out, Legendaries weren’t any better than a karma weapon you could easily obtain. Or an 80 silver exotic on the Trading post. Your point is invalid. Please try again.

Also, no you can’t buy ascended. You can, however, buy all the mats you need to make a full set on day one. That’s paying to win. You now have an advantage over players that cannot afford the gold, for whatever reason.

Becka Williams.4978:

azizul.8469:

err.. you can buy ascended weapon/armor ? i don’t think you could.

if you want to give example, pls be factual.

ok lets change the ascended to Legendaries.

player A buys gem, convert to gold, and purchase the Legendary.
player B work his sweat day and night farming everything and make his Legendary.

how does that make player A win against player B. win in terms of what ? both have their Legendary in the end.

Till ascended weapons came out, Legendaries weren’t any better than a karma weapon you could easily obtain. Or an 80 silver exotic on the Trading post. Your point is invalid. Please try again.

Also, no you can’t buy ascended. You can, however, buy all the mats you need to make a full set on day one. That’s paying to win. You now have an advantage over players that cannot afford the gold, for whatever reason.

And what, prey tell, did you win?

ZudetGambeous.9573:

It’s funny watching all the champions of this game twist and turn and lie over and over and change definitions to defend their position.

Lol, i think that was the first time ever that i have been called a defender of this game. Also – if you think people are lying here, please prove it instead of just calling names.

Becka Williams.4978:

Also, no you can’t buy ascended. You can, however, buy all the mats you need to make a full set on day one. That’s paying to win.

Please, show me where you can buy those from Anet. If you can’t, then it’s a normal trading between players.

Here’s another take….

Let’s say you go to 2 big 3-story department stores.

In one store, you buy a ticket to get in, and then you can go to any floor, and see/do/buy anything you like. You can even buy “bonuses” to help you along, such as shopping bags or carts.

In the other store, you buy a ticket to walk in the front door. Unfortunately, you can only go to the first floor, unless you buy a ridiculously expensive ticket for the 2nd floor, and in turn buy an even more expensive ticket to go to the 3rd floor where the stuff you really want is located. Whether you actually “buy” anything or not, you can’t even see it until you’ve bought your ticket.

In the first example, it is much like GW2. You can walk into the world, and go anywhere, buy anything, and see everything for the walk-in price (the box.)

In the second example, you are being forced to pay more and more just to see the content in the rest of the store, whether you actually buy anything or not. You are also required to buy an upgraded ticket to see the ultimate uber gear on the 3rd floor. This is not unlike many truly P2W games.

It’s not how much you spend for “perceived” gains, it’s how much you’re FORCED to spend just to make it to the top level.

By this definition, GW2 is most definitely not P2W.

Becka Williams.4978:

Till ascended weapons came out, Legendaries weren’t any better than a karma weapon you could easily obtain. Or an 80 silver exotic on the Trading post. Your point is invalid. Please try again.

Also, no you can’t buy ascended. You can, however, buy all the mats you need to make a full set on day one. That’s paying to win. You now have an advantage over players that cannot afford the gold, for whatever reason.

how do you buy the account bound mats?

Ashabhi.1365:

Here’s another take….

Let’s say you go to 2 big 3-story department stores.

In one store, you buy a ticket to get in, and then you can go to any floor, and see/do/buy anything you like. You can even buy “bonuses” to help you along, such as shopping bags or carts.

In the other store, you buy a ticket to walk in the front door. Unfortunately, you can only go to the first floor, unless you buy a ridiculously expensive ticket for the 2nd floor, and in turn buy an even more expensive ticket to go to the 3rd floor where the stuff you really want is located. Whether you actually “buy” anything or not, you can’t even see it until you’ve bought your ticket.

In the first example, it is much like GW2. You can walk into the world, and go anywhere, buy anything, and see everything for the walk-in price (the box.)

In the second example, you are being forced to pay more and more just to see the content in the rest of the store, whether you actually buy anything or not. You are also required to buy an upgraded ticket to see the ultimate uber gear on the 3rd floor. This is not unlike many truly P2W games.

It’s not how much you spend for “perceived” gains, it’s how much you’re FORCED to spend just to make it to the top level.

By this definition, GW2 is most definitely not P2W.

So what about for people who think GW2 is more like the second store? It’s not like their opinions are invalid, as you said it’s all about how it is perceived.

EDIT: Bah I got roped back in here somehow. Darn.

Mirta.5029:

Becka Williams.4978:

Till ascended weapons came out, Legendaries weren’t any better than a karma weapon you could easily obtain. Or an 80 silver exotic on the Trading post. Your point is invalid. Please try again.

Also, no you can’t buy ascended. You can, however, buy all the mats you need to make a full set on day one. That’s paying to win. You now have an advantage over players that cannot afford the gold, for whatever reason.

how do you buy the account bound mats?

Yeah, okay, you can’t buy the dragonite, empyreal, or bloodstone, but those aren’t time gated. You can get as many of those as you want (and many of us do) In fact, I have all I need to make two sets of armor, just from playing the game normally. You can certainly buy all the time gated material on the trading post, or at least, the final form of it (damask bolts, dreldrimor steel, and elonian leather squares)

Becka Williams.4978:

Mirta.5029:

Becka Williams.4978:

Till ascended weapons came out, Legendaries weren’t any better than a karma weapon you could easily obtain. Or an 80 silver exotic on the Trading post. Your point is invalid. Please try again.

Also, no you can’t buy ascended. You can, however, buy all the mats you need to make a full set on day one. That’s paying to win. You now have an advantage over players that cannot afford the gold, for whatever reason.

how do you buy the account bound mats?

Yeah, okay, you can’t buy the dragonite, empyreal, or bloodstone, but those aren’t time gated. You can get as many of those as you want (and many of us do) In fact, I have all I need to make two sets of armor, just from playing the game normally. You can certainly buy all the time gated material on the trading post, or at least, the final form of it (damask bolts, dreldrimor steel, and elonian leather squares)

… and when all is said and done you’ll be no more powerful than anyone else that didn’t convert gems to gold.

Again, there’s a difference between buying power to be above anyone that didn’t and buying time to catch up to where other people are already at.

pay to win is when an item bought using cash shop currency only (gems in the case of GW2) give advantage to the purchaser when two player fight each other. name one item in Gem Store that give a player an advantage over other player when they fight other player who doesn’t use it.

converting gems to gold is not pay to win because gold is also obtainable in game. it is a convenience, because one can achieve his target faster than those who grind gold, still he doesn’t win against anything, since there is no race on who achieve fastest to begin with.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

It’s funny watching all the champions of this game twist and turn and lie over and over and change definitions to defend their position. It’s pretty spectacular the level of denial this thread contains. All the people who realized this game was P2W left already and are waiting for an actual sub game where they hope they won’t be nickle and dimed for every last look and feature.

Think you’re the one in denial, my friend. Guild wars is P2Bequal/casual, not P2W. You have two options: you can pay real money to get gold to buy some of the mats to make Ascended gear (because many of the mats are time gated and cannot be purchased) or you can not pay anything and run dungeons/bosses/champ train to make the money/farm the drops to make Ascended gear.

In the end, both will have the exact same gear. Person A has full Ascended gear, Person B has full Ascended gear. How the hell did one win over the other? This is a casual friendly game. You can either play 6hrs/day and get BiS, or play 1hr/day and also pay real money for gold and get BiS. THEY ARE EQUAL.

Anet is making it so that casuals can still be on par as hard-core players. Not better, not advantaged, equal. That is not pay to win. It is an equalizer.

I feel like this topic has gotten way out of control. There is no definition for Pay to Win that is 100% defined. For some people it means buying power (with no other way to achieving that power) and for some is paying for convenience so one does not have to spend days to grind out the gold. I’m the former, as I have played games where if you throw your cash at the screen you win. I don’t feel like this game gives me any advantage over buying gems to gold (especially when you can convert gold for gems for gem store purchases)

In terms of PvE, it doesn’t take that long to craft ascended weapons (if you are so desperate for the 5% damage increase) I say 2-3 weeks top and that’s if you have 0 gold, 0 resources, and your crafting is at 400. You can easily earn 10 gold a day (and that doesn’t include material farming and selling for gold either). I know people who can do 30 gold a day, although 10 is more reasonable for normal people to achieve. If you are not sure how, I suggest looking it up. Youtube, the wiki, various sites all list how you can earn gold quickly. I’m not here to discuss how to farm.

WvW is won by massive amounts of players and RNG. 5% damage is not going to make much difference when you are on the ground and 20 people surrounding your downed character. In theorycrafting 5% is better, when you actually play WvW, it does not. For PvE you are helping other players kill faster. Since this game you receive your own loot and no one can kill steal I don’t see the reason to rush 5% more damage when cheap exotics are good enough. For dungeons the damage is nice, but I would rather have an elementalist with perma might stacking then some random with an extra 5% damage increase.

I blame ANet for releasing Ascended too early. They should have come up with more ways for them to be in the game other then just crafting alone. WvW, sPvP, Mystic Forge, Fractals, Dungeons etc could have been done to make it less of a grindfest in getting the gear. Hopefully there will be more ways added in soon.

Draknar.5748:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

It’s funny watching all the champions of this game twist and turn and lie over and over and change definitions to defend their position. It’s pretty spectacular the level of denial this thread contains. All the people who realized this game was P2W left already and are waiting for an actual sub game where they hope they won’t be nickle and dimed for every last look and feature.

Think you’re the one in denial, my friend. Guild wars is P2Bequal/casual, not P2W. You have two options: you can pay real money to get gold to buy some of the mats to make Ascended gear (because many of the mats are time gated and cannot be purchased) or you can not pay anything and run dungeons/bosses/champ train to make the money/farm the drops to make Ascended gear.

In the end, both will have the exact same gear. Person A has full Ascended gear, Person B has full Ascended gear. How the hell did one win over the other? This is a casual friendly game. You can either play 6hrs/day and get BiS, or play 1hr/day and also pay real money for gold and get BiS. THEY ARE EQUAL.

Anet is making it so that casuals can still be on par as hard-core players. Not better, not advantaged, equal. That is not pay to win. It is an equalizer.

P2Bequal. That’s a new one for P2W I haven’t heard before. Whatever you would need to call it friend

PvP isn’t pay 2 win, PvE.. well.. you can’t really “win” in Gw2 pve. The game is based on cosmetics,, and normally cosmetics are a representation of your skill, but in Gw2 you don’t have that, because there’s no skill, only grind. Gw2 is more like second life, where you can buy stuff with real money so you can pretend you’re something that you’re not while not realising you’re actually pretty pathetic for wasting real life money on nothing instead of giving to something usefull in life. Aslo, because it’s a GAME, games are made for fun, you’re playing it because you want a challange. If that doesn’t count for u, well maybe you’re just not a gamer, you’re just extremely bored in real life. So yeah, i wouldn’t call it P2W.

Aeonblade.8709:

P2Bequal. That’s a new one for P2W I haven’t heard before. Whatever you would need to call it friend

Winning implies one person being better off than another…

or do you define winning differently than every other English speaking person?

If everyone ends up equal, then there are no winners.

I feel like I am being told that a spoon and a shovel are the same thing and digging a hole is the same experience using either just that the shovel is more convenient but gives you absolutely no advantage whatsoever.
Well in GW2 some buy the shovel the rest have to spoon and listen to people shoveling lies.
GW2 is P2W, some people denying it are getting really angry when the ones saying it’s P2W are just stating that the shovel is a shovel and is a massive advantage.
I’m not upset about it being P2W at all. It just is what it is.

Draknar.5748:

Aeonblade.8709:

P2Bequal. That’s a new one for P2W I haven’t heard before. Whatever you would need to call it friend

Winning implies one person being better off than another…

or do you define winning differently than every other English speaking person?

If everyone ends up equal, then there are no winners.

You’re right, but it’s just stupid if you can give money to be equal, it basicly makes every legendary, or whatever, worthless. One could be playing for 6 months to get his legendary & someone else could buy it in 10min. Some people are just richer than other people in real life. It makes playing the game feel less rewarding, you’re better off not playing it, make some real life money and buy your stuff, because it’s faster.

Its pay to not get bored. Personally saving the 600 gold to level my crafting for ascended armor & weapons that look like crap isn’t worth the boredom but I don’t consider my toon complete unless hes wearing maxed out equipment. Doesn’t matter if its a single point. hes not done until his stats are maxed. so i’m going to gem store everything. If it was actually cool looking like obsidian armor and required significant effort, many dungeon clears, and a final clear just to craft. I would consider it worth grinding for but I’m not spending that kind of time on stats that according to the gw manifesto should be easy to get anyway. Nothing that takes that much time to farm should look that ugly. Why all the ascended armor looks like cheap decorations is beyond me.
I’d take my old obby armor, low res and poly count and everything over any ascended gear they’ve released.

CoRtex.2157:

You’re right, but it’s just stupid if you can give money to be equal, it basicly makes every legendary, or whatever, worthless.

Even assuming you are right (i don’t, because i don’t agree with them having any more worth when not bought directly. A grind is a grind is a grind, doesn’t matter whether for gold or mats. And mats are in most cases also bought, not farmed), it is a completely separate problem from “pay2win or not pay2win”. Nobody is saying that there aren’t any problems with GW2 shop and economy (well, at least i’m not saying it). You just have to be careful when identifying those problems, because if you label them incorrectly, you won’t even be treated seriously when trying to argue against them.

CoRtex.2157:

Draknar.5748:

Aeonblade.8709:

P2Bequal. That’s a new one for P2W I haven’t heard before. Whatever you would need to call it friend

Winning implies one person being better off than another…

or do you define winning differently than every other English speaking person?

If everyone ends up equal, then there are no winners.

You’re right, but it’s just stupid if you can give money to be equal, it basicly makes every legendary, or whatever, worthless. One could be playing for 6 months to get his legendary & someone else could buy it in 10min. Some people are just richer than other people in real life. It makes playing the game feel less rewarding, you’re better off not playing it, make some real life money and buy your stuff, because it’s faster.

I’m not going to argue that being able to purchase a legendary using cash → gems → gold devalues it. It does make it less prestigious to have one. Still doesn’t make that person any better than any other person though…

Aeonblade.8709:

Ashabhi.1365:

Here’s another take….

Let’s say you go to 2 big 3-story department stores.

In one store, you buy a ticket to get in, and then you can go to any floor, and see/do/buy anything you like. You can even buy “bonuses” to help you along, such as shopping bags or carts.

In the other store, you buy a ticket to walk in the front door. Unfortunately, you can only go to the first floor, unless you buy a ridiculously expensive ticket for the 2nd floor, and in turn buy an even more expensive ticket to go to the 3rd floor where the stuff you really want is located. Whether you actually “buy” anything or not, you can’t even see it until you’ve bought your ticket.

In the first example, it is much like GW2. You can walk into the world, and go anywhere, buy anything, and see everything for the walk-in price (the box.)

In the second example, you are being forced to pay more and more just to see the content in the rest of the store, whether you actually buy anything or not. You are also required to buy an upgraded ticket to see the ultimate uber gear on the 3rd floor. This is not unlike many truly P2W games.

It’s not how much you spend for “perceived” gains, it’s how much you’re FORCED to spend just to make it to the top level.

By this definition, GW2 is most definitely not P2W.

So what about for people who think GW2 is more like the second store? It’s not like their opinions are invalid, as you said it’s all about how it is perceived.

EDIT: Bah I got roped back in here somehow. Darn.

I don’t disagree with you. Everyone has their own opinion of whether or not P2W includes thinking you have to have the penultimate anything.

The point that I am trying to make is that GW2 does not require you to buy anything in order to compete in the highest level of competition. Even with some in Ascended and Legendaries, someone like me, in “lowly” exotics that I obtained wholly in-game can still do good in that type of theater.

Don’t get me wrong, I am not saying that purchasing the uber gear doesn’t help, and I am not saying that having all the latest fashions (skins) isn’t fun.

Using the store example, I can still walk around on the top floor for the walk-in ticket. I don’t have to purchase a thing. I’ll take this over real P2W any day!

Valistrix.4079:

I’ve seen the term thrown around a fair bit on this forum and it confuses me. I don’t see and have never seen any items in the gem store that will give me an edge when competing against the game’s PvE or PvP content.

The popular argument seems to be that cosmetics are the endgame and thus the ability to purchase some cosmetic items is an example of P2W. This strikes me as asinine. A player can be just as good at the game than another player who’s decked in the flamekissed armour or the Grenth hood, etc. Cosmetics have no bearing on skill or your capability to complete the game’s content. I’ve bought a couple of cosmetic items from the gem store in the past but they in no way allowed me to finish a dungeon or participate in WvW any more effectively than someone who hasn’t invested a penny in gems; a currency that may be bought with in-game gold.

To those of you that consider Guild Wars 2 to be pay-to-win, what has made you feel this way and what would you like to see change?

Only if it’s a fashion show.

A really commendable aspect about GW2 is that no matter how much cash you convert to gems and to gold, the vertical progression of gear is so near nonexistent, that having BiS gear doesn’t give a distinct advantage over other players (unless you slay them with style). I suppose it depends on what one considers to be the “win” – IMO conquering content, and obtaining items of a greater rarity is my “win”, and doing so effectively seems to be dependent on skill or extensive amounts of time for those lacking skill.

No, it can’t.

But you’d be lying if you said WvW, for example, is an even playing field. The difference between exotics+cheap upgrades+food and full ascended+ideal (expensive) upgrades+top choice of food is actually significant (and that doesn’t consider new or poor players who haven’t even kitted out in full exotics).

Most will probably scoff at that but if you don’t think exotics are a big deal, go ahead and salvage yours and pick up brand new sets. I won’t hold my breath waiting.