Guild Wars 2

Vayne.8563:

But Anet didn’t actually spend five years pimping their game saying that the game would be without gear progression.

the lack of gear trendmill was almost certainly one of the top5 selling feature for them….

so yes they said it…quite explicitly like “when you reach 80 you should have reached the BiS equipment” and stuff like that…..

Today you need something like 3 months of heavy grinding to obtain the BiS.

Vayne.8563:

CrossedHorse.4261:

Vayne.8563:

stale.9785:

The bulk of the complaining about ascended has less to do with the actual stat increase (which does matter if you’re into WvW or min/maxing) but to do with the fact that Anet spend 5 years pimping their game as being one without gear progression or grind for gear.

I’m too lazy to look for the quote, but in essence, it was that everyone, including casuals would have the BiS gear at level 80. Further gear progression would be purely cosmetic.

Ascended is a blatant “kitten you” to every person who bought the game with that ideal in mind.

But Anet didn’t actually spend five years pimping their game saying that the game would be without gear progression.

In those five years, you could count on one hand how many times they talked about gear progression, and almost always in answer to a question.

Out of hundreds of hours of interviews and video, Anet didn’t sell their game on a lack of vertical progression. They sold their game on dynamic events, personal story, and active/dynamic combat. That’s what they sold their game on.

When you look at their website, that’s what’s front in center. When you watched them at conventions that’s what they talked about.

Mentioning something a few times in five years is not selling your game on it. This is at very least an exaggeration.

That might be true, but I have to say that it’s the reason I bought the game. I thought, “YES! Fantastic, a game I don’t have to keep up with all the time, where I can come and go and have my character still in the same place it was last time I left a month ago”. That’s no longer the case. And, while I’m annoyed at Ascended but resigned to it if I want it, I can completely see why it’s annoyed some people.

So, no, I’m not going to rag on ANet for not keeping promises or for the manifesto or anything like that, because I also think that it’s a bad place to go, but I did just want to say that the major selling point of this game for ME, was the no gear progression. Now that I am in the game, there are several other reasons I like it, of course. But if I were a new player, attracted because I’d heard there was no gear progression and a player turned round to me and told me that wasn’t true, I don’t think I’d have picked it up in the first place.

But my question is this…what has really changed.

We have people gone for six months or more than have come back to the game in my guild. They jumped into a dungeon with us and did the dungeon. They played WvW with us and they were fine. They didn’t die any more than anyone else.

I think a lot of this is in people’s minds. Is there a difference between ascended gear and exotic…sure there is. That much is obvious.

But it’s not the kind of difference that will stop people from succeeding at events, or beating dungeons.

The only exception would be the absolute highest level fractals, and more casual players (and in fact most of the playerbase) will never see those anyway.

Nothing much, but it’s not a rational thing. I explained on another thread somewhere, that even a smaller stat increase than the one we have with Ascended says “need” to the mind, even where logic would say “not really”. Cosmetics are much easier to handle in the sense of I would be willing to put a lot of hard work into something I just know that I want but don’t need. I mean, that’s what I work irl for, besides paying the bills, so I can have money to buy stuff I want. But I grumble at bills. I grumble at rent. I grumble at congestion charge (I live in London, UK). Now, Ascended isn’t the same as bills – I realise I don’t need it to still enjoy the game. But because of the stat increase, it gets harder to separate “want” and “require”. It becomes a sense of “need”, and that’s hard to ignore, even if I know it’s irrational. Also, it’s BiS. Even if you weren’t coming to GW2 for the rewards, nobody feels like a character is truly complete unless they’ve got BiS gear … I would always feel like something was missing.

Vayne, I know you don’t see it as important – to others, myself included, it is though. One of the major reasons I bought this game was that, the times I interacted with the devs regarding gw2, I was one of the people asking about gear progression. Without fail, the response was a variation of “cosmetic only” and “BiS for all, the same as GW1.”

This is no longer true. The fact that there isn’t (yet) anything in game that requires the BiS gear isn’t relevant. The fact that I personally bought the game under false pretenses is extraordinarily relevant.

To be honest, had they implemented ascended in a way that 1) rewarded is consistently for certain quests/achievements, 2) followed the dungeon exotic setup, with a slightly higher requirement (say, 1000 tokens per piece), 3) introduced it without the insane grind required for crafting, I’d likely not ever complain. As it is, I find the acquisition method to be the part that irritates me the most.

(The other reason I bought GW2 would simply be my love of GW1, which stands out for me as one of the best games I’ve ever had the joy of playing – easily equal to the zelda or elder scrolls franchises. That’s actually part of why I’m as vocal as I am about ascended and some of the other issues – they’ve taken what, for me, was a truly amazing thing, and kitten all over it.)

5-8% are for most people a significant advantage…..
its not a minimal advantage….

stale.9785:

Vayne, I know you don’t see it as important – to others, myself included, it is though. One of the major reasons I bought this game was that, the times I interacted with the devs regarding gw2, I was one of the people asking about gear progression. Without fail, the response was a variation of “cosmetic only” and “BiS for all, the same as GW1.”

This is no longer true. The fact that there isn’t (yet) anything in game that requires the BiS gear isn’t relevant. The fact that I personally bought the game under false pretenses is extraordinarily relevant.

To be honest, had they implemented ascended in a way that 1) rewarded is consistently for certain quests/achievements, 2) followed the dungeon exotic setup, with a slightly higher requirement (say, 1000 tokens per piece), 3) introduced it without the insane grind required for crafting, I’d likely not ever complain. As it is, I find the acquisition method to be the part that irritates me the most.

(The other reason I bought GW2 would simply be my love of GW1, which stands out for me as one of the best games I’ve ever had the joy of playing – easily equal to the zelda or elder scrolls franchises. That’s actually part of why I’m as vocal as I am about ascended and some of the other issues – they’ve taken what, for me, was a truly amazing thing, and kitten all over it.)

I understand what you’re saying. I was a Guild Wars 1 player too. I have my 50/50 and I have my GWAMM title and I still jump into Guild Wars 1 and play occasionally. I’m not insensitive to what you’re saying.

But it’s still a fact that the big push behind this game, what Anet themselves pushed, as personal story, DEs and active/dynamic combat. They pushed that stuff. You can’t say Anet sold this game on that, even if you personally bought it on that (as many people did).

This game has a much much higher overhead than Guild Wars 1 did. It doesn’t have 50 devs it has 300. They moved to bigger offices. The overhead is higher because of it.

In the end, they have to have more people playing this game than played Guild Wars 1 for it to be successful.

Guild Wars 1 was a great game…but it was more of a strategy game than an MMO. There was a lot more thinking involved. Which meant it was always going to be niche. In order to make a game less niche, you have to open it up to the masses. When you do that you sort of become slave to the whims of the masses. It sucks but there you are.

I don’t know if you remember how many people were leaving this game back before the Fractals came out. Or the number of posts about nothing to do at end game.

There are just too many people who won’t play for cosmetic rewards. That’s something I believe.

Do you really believe Anet sat around the office, waited two months and said, hey I have a great idea. Let’s screw over our loyal long term fan base. Because I’m pretty sure that’s not the way it happened.

They made a business decision because the millions of dollars invested was at risk. I’m not sure most people, even those complaining, wouldn’t have done the same thing if it had been their money and time invested.

Oh, I know they didn’t set out to “screw over our loyal long term fan base.” I’m saying that’s what the result was. In my opinion, they aimed for too much income, fell short, and then screwed the very people who gave them the ability to consider making this game in the first place.

The result, for me, is a game that I almost love, but now am disgusted with each time I log on, because there was this huge potential, and they dropped the ball.

stale.9785:

Oh, I know they didn’t set out to “screw over our loyal long term fan base.” I’m saying that’s what the result was. In my opinion, they aimed for too much income, fell short, and then screwed the very people who gave them the ability to consider making this game in the first place.

The result, for me, is a game that I almost love, but now am disgusted with each time I log on, because there was this huge potential, and they dropped the ball.

See, I get this completely.

I’m not in the same boat you are. I still have fun in game. I hang out with my guild. We run some dungeons, do some guild missions, have some laughs. I don’t take it too seriously. I play the game.

Most of the time I’m banging around in the open world, looking around, exploring, doing jumping puzzles, helping newbies out.

The addition of ascended gear doesn’t affect me badly because it hasn’t changed the game for me….not really at all.

I never did a level 50 fractal before, and I’ll probably never do one. The highest level fractal I’ve done is level 34 (before the changes to fractals).

The thing is, I’m a pragmatist at heart. If what you’re saying is true, that Anet aimed too high and had to compromise…I think well yes. That might be what happened. But so what? If they had to they had to.

I can blame them for aiming too high (which anyone can do). I can blame them for compromising (which from a business point of view was the right thing to do, or I can accept the fact that the world is an imperfect place and blame WoW and WoW clones for training an entire generation of players in such a way that a truly good MMORPG can’t really exist.

I chose the latter option lol.

I kinda love that I spend such a truly insane amount of time arguing with you, when 90%+ of the time we agree. Think the biggest difference is that you’re inclined to shrug and accept the bad while enjoying the good – I’m more inclined to inscribe a list of bad things onto a dead fish, and then go beat a dev with it.

I rather wish they’d spend more time on adding new content, so I’d have something more fun to do than rant on the forums. (I’m really not as bitter as some of my posts make me sound.) Other than grind out ascended, run a champ train, or watch my server utterly fail at WvW, I’m at a loss for things to do in-game.

At this point in GW1 timeline, they’d added Sorrow’s Furnace, Factions had come out, and I spent my time 1) running folks to droks, 2) getting characters though factions, and taking part in the FA/JQ warfare, 3) Monking for strangers in Thunderhead, 4) playing with builds. Nostalgia ftw.

Also, good chatting with you, dude! (I don’t say that enough, and I should)

Let’s look at this from a (somewhat) objective viewpoint. I qualify myself as objective because Ascended gear to me is one of those things that I couldn’t really care less whether I get or not.

1. The stat difference: Yes, Ascended has better stats than Exotics. Even if it were a half of a percent better, it would still be higher numbers. That’s the way it is. Whether this slight difference is enough to warrant the grind and expense is entirely up to the individual player.

2. Implementation and grind: Certain things in a game will require grind. In GW2, even before Ascended, there was Legendary grind, Dungeon Armor grind, Mat grind, and Gold grind. Saying there wasn’t grind before is false. In GW1, there were titles, faction, and yes, mats and platinum for high-end skins and weapons (armbraces and ectos, anyone?) Had Ascended gear been included from the very beginning, then I truly believe there wouldn’t be this outcry right now. In any case, it’s here now, and whether we like it or not, we have to deal with it.

3. There is absolutely no content in the game that is locked out to a player if they do not have Ascended gear. Whether a player can complete all of the content open to them without ascended gear is a matter of player ability and content difficulty.

In the end, the OP is correct. There is nothing in the game that absolutely requires Ascended gear in that there is no content that is locked out unless you have it… However, there is some content that is “difficult” enough to make the extra stats and slots useful.

Whether you (generic singular) need Ascended gear is something that only you can decide. If you decide that you need it, then be prepared to deal with the grind, time gating and expense of obtaining it.

(opinion alert!)
People came to these forums and said “Is this all there is?” when they reached 80 and got all decked out in their exotic armor. So, whether it was intended from the start or not, ANet introduced Ascended items, weapons and now armor to give those who were unhappy with the “skin only” brand of end-game something to do.

Now, people are coming to these forums to complain that they got what they asked for. The bulk of the “complaining” for lack of a better word seems to be that A) it’s expensive, as it should be. After all, it’s end game gear, and B) it’s something one can’t have right now. Again, it shouldn’t be “easy,” as it is end game gear and should be worth working toward.

TL;DR:
Whether one likes it or not, Ascended Gear is here to stay. While there is nothing in the game that is off-limits to those who don’t have it, those who want that extra few numbers of damage/defense should be willing to put up with whatever grind and expense there is to get. It is *end game * gear. It should be expensive and arduous to get. It shouldn’t be handed to players just because they whine.