Guild Wars 2

Guild Wars 2 Designer Explains Their Balance Philosophy:

“In a response to increasing number of forum posts about overpowered professions in Guild Wars 2, the game’s designer Jon Peters posted a new article and explained their Game Balance Philosophy. Peters suggest players to take their time and look for counters before assuming a profession to be owerpowered. At the same time, he does encourage players to continue submitting feedback as they try to make Guild Wars 2 the most balanced game”.

“If you play MMO games and follow the game’s forums, you must have seen one of those forum posts where players complain about an overpowered item, ability, champion or a skill… While, some of these posts are well thought and written by experienced players of the game which is always helpful to the developers of the game, many of these are also written in urgency out of frustration without any thought into it. This is probably how Guild Wars 2 designer Jon Peters felt when he saw the number of overpowered professions related posts on GW2 forums”.

“In a general response to these posts, Peters posted about ArenaNet’s Balance Philosophy for Guild Wars 2. He first suggested players to take the time and look for counters before assuming that something is extremely strong. Peters believes the development team have put a lot of hours into game already.”

" On the other hand, he explains the team’s methods for improving the game balance. As there are a lot of Guild Wars 2 players consistently playing the game, ArenaNet devs started to gather metrics on skills and analyze this data to decide what is too strong or too weak".

“This all sounds positive but I really doubt this will stop players from posting their frustrations over a strong or weak profession. At the end of the day, most of these posts are written without reading any other post, let alone developer’s blog post”.

http://www.devilsmmo.com/news/guild-wars-2-designer-explains-balance-game

That article is quite old; it is from 2012. I think the gist of it is that players may feel something is overpowered only because they have yet to find or utilize the counter provided in-game. And that the Devs use metrics as well as player feedback when considering balance.

What needs explaining? I guess I can give you a synopsis.

- People on forums who don’t see the big picture complain about one thing that annoys them personally.

- Sometimes they have a point.

- Usually they don’t understand the overall reasons for why something they personally dislike is actually beneficial to the game, and they don’t read up on the reasons, they just post in anger.

- ANet is paying attention to game balance based on data they can more fully gather than can anyone else, and they will make changes when something really is out of whack.

Does that make the text clearer to you?

Donari.5237:

What needs explaining? I guess I can give you a synopsis.

- People on forums who don’t see the big picture complain about one thing that annoys them personally.

- Sometimes they have a point.

- Usually they don’t understand the overall reasons for why something they personally dislike is actually beneficial to the game, and they don’t read up on the reasons, they just post in anger.

- ANet is paying attention to game balance based on data they can more fully gather than can anyone else, and they will make changes when something really is out of whack.

Does that make the text clearer to you?

Shouldn’t us player be the data? I mean, the way i think i understand this link was that , us player information/data is not important until Arena net say so. So if they believe a class is not Op: nothing include player information even data will stop them from see there is problem. So it is player fault to not find counter… should counter be in Op class skill etc? like stealth?

Isn’t us player reporting problem is not data? isn’t player presence data? Example- if majority of player reporting same thing 80%, is that not data? Is that not to take serious? If there is 90% thief, warrior, ele and engineer in all party mode, is that not data? is that not to take serious?

Again i understand what you say, after read link, i feel that Arena net does not care what us player say and do what they want for OP class: even if we report data with evidence and even if those OP percent is large fracture in game modes.

I am concern about this because player data should be take more serious and should be more important: not some computer A.I. data base on metric. I feel like this is a competition between us player vs Arena net computer metric data, that is not right at all. Computer metric do not experience, it is us player is one who experience. So the one who experience should be first priority, correct? Computer metric can fail: can give wrong data because it is machine correct? Us player is the one who have have feeling, not some computer metric.

I am sorry for going far: that is all.

DarkSyze.8627:

Donari.5237:

What needs explaining? I guess I can give you a synopsis.

- People on forums who don’t see the big picture complain about one thing that annoys them personally.

- Sometimes they have a point.

- Usually they don’t understand the overall reasons for why something they personally dislike is actually beneficial to the game, and they don’t read up on the reasons, they just post in anger.

- ANet is paying attention to game balance based on data they can more fully gather than can anyone else, and they will make changes when something really is out of whack.

Does that make the text clearer to you?

Shouldn’t us player be the data? I mean, the way i think i understand this link was that , us player information/data is not important until Arena net say so. So if they believe a class is not Op: nothing include player information even data will stop them from see there is problem. So it is player fault to not find counter… should counter be in Op class skill etc? like stealth?

Isn’t us player reporting problem is not data? isn’t player presence data? Example- if majority of player reporting same thing 80%, is that not data? Is that not to take serious? If there is 90% thief, warrior, ele and engineer in all party mode, is that not data? is that not to take serious?

Again i understand what you say, after read link, i feel that Arena net does not care what us player say and do what they want for OP class: even if we report data with evidence and even if those OP percent is large fracture in game modes.

I am concern about this because player data should be take serious and should be important: not some computer data base on metric.

to be honest, a mass of humans is mainly a childish, selfish blob of people without much relevant opinion. with every nerf people will whine about it and others will like it, with every buff people will whine about it and others will like it. there are a few people that see the big picture but they are a minority.

Here is a good video that explains GW2 balance:

The problem with player data is too much bias. People use their personal experience to extrapolate what must be true, but usually isn’t.

Anet definitely care about player’s opinion.
The text is about, well, lets take an example: Player A thinks that skill B is overpowered and starts a forum thread about it. Anet guys look into their data and see: B is not overpowered, A just thought so for some reasons (eg, A just saw the raw damage output and not the long cooldown time, or some more complicated inside funcionality like connection to traits, type of combo field, effectiveness under certain conditions etc).

DarkSyze.8627:

Isn’t us player reporting problem is not data? isn’t player presence data? Example- if majority of player reporting same thing 80%, is that not data?

Someone here has a signature saying:

“Dear ArenaNet, please nerf rock. Paper is fine. Thanks, Scissors.”

That’s pretty much how valuable player feedback is.

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

That article is quite old; it is from 2012. I think the gist of it is that players may feel something is overpowered only because they have yet to find or utilize the counter provided in-game. And that the Devs use metrics as well as player feedback when considering balance.

Well it was a fact, that Thief class was extremely OP back then. In WvW they could perma stealth, as well as one shot back stabs from stealth and quickly return to stealth. That was extremely OP. Rogues can’t even do that in World of Warcraft.

They needed that nerf.

BammBamm.6719:

to be honest, a mass of humans is mainly a childish, selfish blob of people without much relevant opinion. with every nerf people will whine about it and others will like it, with every buff people will whine about it and others will like it. there are a few people that see the big picture but they are a minority.

This. ANet does care about the players. ANet cannot however let the players call all the shots. The game would suffer death by committee. A poorly informed committee at that.

See this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFLgYy2VHV0

DarkSyze.8627:

Isn’t us player reporting problem is not data? isn’t player presence data? Example- if majority of player reporting same thing 80%, is that not data? Is that not to take serious?

Yes and no. If 80% of players on forums seem to see a problem, this will likely warrant checking it, but it doesn’t mean that there is a problem to Anet. Sometimes they may think that players are overreacting, or decide that an unpopular change is exactly what the game needs for balance reasons. Of course this doesn’t mean they are always right (history has shown that it’s not true, after all).

DarkSyze.8627:

If there is 90% thief, warrior, ele and engineer in all party mode, is that not data? is that not to take serious?

If that were indeed true, then i guess this would, again, warrant checking out. Is that true in some part of the game?

Most player’s opinion is extremely subjective. That’s why raw data is much much better.

However, there are some very good and analytic players out there that have a point.

Metrics brought us the NPE.

Tachenon.5270:

Metrics brought us the NPE.

And metrics will make part of the NPE go away (the traits part to be exactly)

Belzebu.3912:

Tachenon.5270:

Metrics brought us the NPE.

And metrics will make part of the NPE go away (the traits part to be exactly)

The trait system was redesigned several months before the NPE came along. It took a while to percolate up into general awareness because its negative effects weren’t evident on characters created before it was implemented. There are likely still people out there who aren’t aware of it, because they’re still playing the same characters they’ve had since launch.

Whether HoT will bring positive and constructive changes to the trait system (or anything negatively impacted by NPE later on) remains to be seen. It would seem unlikely that a worse trait system than the one we are stuck with now could be devised and implemented, but history suggests such a thing is a distinct and disturbing possibility.

Tachenon.5270:

Belzebu.3912:

Tachenon.5270:

Metrics brought us the NPE.

And metrics will make part of the NPE go away (the traits part to be exactly)

The trait system was redesigned several months before the NPE came along.

It was simply first part of the same package. When traits were changed, it was mentioned that some parts of that change are designed for new players, and that more changes for those new players would be forthcoming later on. Also, some of the second batch of NPE changes were developed at the same time as traits, but originally went only to the chinese client – we just got most of that package after a delay.

DarkSyze.8627:

Donari.5237:

What needs explaining? I guess I can give you a synopsis.

- People on forums who don’t see the big picture complain about one thing that annoys them personally.

- Sometimes they have a point.

- Usually they don’t understand the overall reasons for why something they personally dislike is actually beneficial to the game, and they don’t read up on the reasons, they just post in anger.

- ANet is paying attention to game balance based on data they can more fully gather than can anyone else, and they will make changes when something really is out of whack.

Does that make the text clearer to you?

Shouldn’t us player be the data? I mean, the way i think i understand this link was that , us player information/data is not important until Arena net say so. So if they believe a class is not Op: nothing include player information even data will stop them from see there is problem. So it is player fault to not find counter… should counter be in Op class skill etc? like stealth?

Isn’t us player reporting problem is not data? isn’t player presence data? Example- if majority of player reporting same thing 80%, is that not data? Is that not to take serious? If there is 90% thief, warrior, ele and engineer in all party mode, is that not data? is that not to take serious?

Again i understand what you say, after read link, i feel that Arena net does not care what us player say and do what they want for OP class: even if we report data with evidence and even if those OP percent is large fracture in game modes.

I am concern about this because player data should be take more serious and should be more important: not some computer A.I. data base on metric. I feel like this is a competition between us player vs Arena net computer metric data, that is not right at all. Computer metric do not experience, it is us player is one who experience. So the one who experience should be first priority, correct? Computer metric can fail: can give wrong data because it is machine correct? Us player is the one who have have feeling, not some computer metric.

I am sorry for going far: that is all.

The problem is, you can’t say something is op based off player incompetence. For any game this is true.

Any good player can make an op champ shine and a bad champ look good, and any bad player can make an op champ look bad, and an ok one look underpowered.

X may seem be Strong simply because player y doesn’t know how to fight xl. Once player y learns how to use z playstyle to beat champ x, soon champ x looks less powerful because now he knows its weaknesses and how to play against it properly.

That’s like, take the weakest class in the game. We will call him again, X. Now take the worst player in the world He is player Y. Y literally just stands there auto attacking X because he is lagging and cannot press buttons easy. X is able to press all of his abilities, and dodge because he has good reactions. X actually uses skills and due to the big difference in damage, Y gets smashed. X seems broken to Y, but in reality if Y had used his abilities to hurt X, and dodge too, he would have won easily.

Perception is not reality. Now real pvp situations are much more intricated like, y’ failed to block or dodge y’s most damaging, and easily avoidable attack, etc etc

Test.8734:

DarkSyze.8627:

Isn’t us player reporting problem is not data? isn’t player presence data? Example- if majority of player reporting same thing 80%, is that not data?

Someone here has a signature saying:

“Dear ArenaNet, please nerf rock. Paper is fine. Thanks, Scissors.”

That’s pretty much how valuable player feedback is.

This.

Players only see and care about how changes effect them. It’s sort of an ignorant selfishness we all have a tendency to gravitate toward.

Astralporing.1957:

DarkSyze.8627:

If there is 90% thief, warrior, ele and engineer in all party mode, is that not data? is that not to take serious?

If that were indeed true, then i guess this would, again, warrant checking out. Is that true in some part of the game?

in the world tournament finals there was no double class, in the region finals there was sometimes a double in a team but always different classes. darksyze is a good example why subjective prediction from mister noname in the internet is meaningless