Guild Wars 2

EDIT
this is basically what I’ve gathered from the responses and I’d like to refine my question.
I ask, if rewards are what you need to justify risks then why did you play contra, you didn’t get a reward for beating that game?
Response: That’s an entirely different genre of game I don’t expect rewards for beating donkey kong.
My new question,
What did I miss, that proclaimed all mmos ever for the rest of time, must have loot based shiny trinket incentives in order for it to be a success, it cannot have challenging content that you get a sense of accomplishment just for beating said content.?
I don’t want examples of other mmos that have used the above system to great success I want to know why there CAN NOT be another way.
END EDIT

The more I search through posts I see the risk v reward being brought up. I see X is not worth the effort or the difficulty of Y doesn’t justify the reward.

I want to know how gaming has shifted to everything you do requires a shiny trinket at the end.

I’m in my early 20’s and I would assume a large majority of other players are close to that. I also assume that many of you have grown up with several games in your lifetime.
Given these 2 assumptions it is confusing to me then, that the players that grew up playing games like contra have lost all value in the reward of a hard fought and won battle.

In my younger years I didn’t dump countless quarters into a Metal Slug arcade machine because I was thinking of what special object I get at the end.
Ive burned through more lives in battle toads than I can remember, more restarts in street fighter than I care to admit.
I’ve gripped my controller with white knuckles while furiously slamming on the dodge roll button in ninja gaiden black.
All for no shiny trinket or piece of gear or anything. Just winning was my reward. And it felt awesome.
Every map challenge I did in portal using 1 less step, or 1 less portal gave me that feeling of reward.

Even in GW2 every explorable dungeon thatkittennear impossible to complete or each jump puzzle I manage to finish that I’ve failed 10 times previously gives me that same feeling.
“but the chest gave me a white item” how does that negate the challenge you just overcome? The chest could give out a puff of glitter for all I care.

In GW2 the gear is there laid out for you, I know what set I want I know how to get it. The dungeon gave me 30 badges to work closer to it, I’m making progress. But man how awesome and fun when we beat that ridiculously hard boss.

So I ask, am I an anomaly? Am I the only person that beat donkey kong and didn’t say “well that was stupid I didn’t get anything”

I would like to compare you to a diamond in a sea of glass. While I do believe that quite a large part of the community is in their late teens/early twenties, there is another large group of players. Namely, the early teenagers. These people have grown up with games that have held their hand throughout the games and rewarded them with the world’s largest lollipop in the game. I’m not saying that these are the only people that whine, but I believe that they are the primary group of people who are like this. Others have grown used to these “handholders” while still some just doesn’t feel any motivation without a carrot on a stick.

People are different. You just have to accept that.

I belong to a community of 1500+ members who are all over the age of 25, I suspect the number of older people playing this game is underestimated. I agree with the OP and I don’t think you are an anomaly. On our private forums there are very few complaints about the game. I suspect that most of the people that are simply enjoying the game for the fun of it are simply not visiting the forums but are busy playing. I like to read the forums (usually), but to be honest I am mostly afraid to post because of the rampant negativity.

Perhaps it is just a newer generation thing, but requiring a reward for every step instead of feeling rewarded for completing the journey is such an alien concept to me it’s difficult to wrap my head around.

Is there any explanation as to why a younger generation needs to constantly be thrown a cookie and seems to dislike completing challenges for the sake of the challenge?

In one word; achievements. Achievements has ruined a lot in gaming in my opinion. Many people have forgotten that awards were created as a tool to give us a reason to come back to a game. It started as something as simple as wanting to beat your own high score, but it has completely taken overhand today, and turned into a system of control that many developers misuse. The thing is, when you feed people an achievement every five minute, they will get addicted to that feeling of getting a dog biscuit every time they preform a trick, and then expect to be awarded the same way in other games as well. This becomes so addicting for some people, that they focus all their attention on getting awards, while totally neglecting whether or not they’re actually having any fun. So much so that fun almost becomes another word for ‘work’ to them. Fun is almost a waste of their time.

The thing with Guild Wars 2 is just that it’s based more around the word ‘fun’, then it is about awards. Or in other words; Guild Wars 2 is about the journey, not the destination. That’s why people who tend to not like Guild Wars 2, are those who rush to level 80 and then asks “where is the end game?”. They’ve been “brainwashed” into thinking that gaming is just a place to make you feel good for the things you achieve, rather then the fun you experience. But at the end of the day, it’s not worth worrying about what others think. If you’re a casual player, Guild Wars 2 is the right place for you.

Fun isn’t enough anymore. Apparently it’s not entertainment if you don’t get a collection of 1’s and 0’s that is a vitual item.

People feel entitled to be rewarded for playing a game.

I dont really think age has anything do do with the issue. When you sink a large sum of your time into something like an MMO, you SHOULD be expected to be rewarded. With single player games, when you beat it, you are rewarded with an ending. With MMO’s having no ending, you need some kind of goal to achieve. Most of the time with MMO’s the goal is better gear. If there is no incentive to achieve for, than the time you put in is pretty much worthless.

I dont see the problem with having something to look forward to while playing. I love to put in time, and the sense of satisfaction you get when you are finally rewarded is awesome. Love it or hate it, that is what has made games like WOW so successful. People like rewards. Its just human nature.

Kasama.8941:

In one word; achievements. Achievements has ruined a lot in gaming in my opinion. Many people have forgotten that awards were created as a tool to give us a reason to come back to a game. It started as something as simple as wanting to beat your own high score, but it has completely taken overhand today, and turned into a system of control that many developers misuse. The thing is, when you feed people an achievement every five minute, they will get addicted to that feeling of getting a dog biscuit every time they preform a trick, and then expect to be awarded the same way in other games as well. This becomes so addicting for some people, that they focus all their attention on getting awards, while totally neglecting whether or not they’re actually having any fun. So much so that fun almost becomes another word for ‘work’ to them. Fun is almost a waste of their time.

The thing with Guild Wars 2 is just that it’s based more around the word ‘fun’, then it is about awards. Or in other words; Guild Wars 2 is about the journey, not the destination. That’s why people who tend to not like Guild Wars 2, are those who rush to level 80 and then asks “where is the end game?”. They’ve been “brainwashed” into thinking that gaming is just a place to make you feel good for the things you achieve, rather then the fun you experience. So don’t worry about what others think, if you’re a casual player, you are in the right place.

Yes, so agree. Some people — and I do believe this isn’t the majority, the majority is just enjoying the game — are only in it for the trinket, it seems. My experience so far in GW2 is just so enjoyable, for the fun factor of playing alone.

I’ll confess that usually in MMOs I’m a rush to max level kind of guy, because generally speaking the questing in most mmo dries up for me around level 30, even though I start out trying to focus on the lore and story being presented. This time around, I find that I really am drawn into the world to such an extent that I’m just not stressing about getting to max level — so I believe Anet has achieved what they set out to do in a bit way.

Bigtimmbo.8409:

I dont really think age has anything do do with the issue. When you sink a large sum of your time into something like an MMO, you SHOULD be expected to be rewarded. With single player games, when you beat it, you are rewarded with an ending. With MMO’s having no ending, you need some kind of goal to achieve. Most of the time with MMO’s the goal is better gear. If there is no incentive to achieve for, than the time you put in is pretty much worthless.

I dont see the problem with having something to look forward to while playing. I love to put in time, and the sense of satisfaction you get when you are finally rewarded is awesome. Love it or hate it, that is what has made games like WOW so successful. People like rewards. Its just human nature.

Name me a single other form of entertainment that gives as many hours of fresh content / experiences for the same or lower price.

MMOs, even with a monthly sub, are amazingly good value forms of entertainment. But people still expect more.

You might be very spot on with the achievements thing, but I’ve always seen them as 99% fluff and focus any attention on the tough to obtain ones, but I still appreciate the difficulty and path it took to get there, rather than just being ecstatic over seeing letters pop onto my screen and a number.

And i may be different in that I probably play more than a casual gamer, but I’m not scratching my head asking, where’s the end game? Because I know that I have yet to complete all explorables, get world completion, or obtain a legendary. So I still have a lot to do before I can say I’m done.

Before people start patting you on the back for being totally mature, non-mainstream, not brainwashed by WoW, etc, ask yourself this:

Is it good design if the rewards are screwed up? Does it make GW2 a better game?

Rhetorical question, really. No, it’s not the most important thing in an mmo, but it’s certainly something that can make an mmo more fun if done right.

Bigtimmbo.8409:

I dont really think age has anything do do with the issue. When you sink a large sum of your time into something like an MMO, you SHOULD be expected to be rewarded.

I don’t expect to be rewarded.

I hope I have fun. If there’s no fun, all the rewards in the world mean nothing and I quit playing.

If it’s tons of funs, no fluffy rewards are needed and I’ll play for as long as it’s fun.

Swagman.9013:

I want to know how gaming has shifted to everything you do requires a shiny trinket at the end.

It hasn’t, these people just want this MMO to be like every other MMO, which is ironically why many of us hate those other MMO’s. As if a game can’t just stand on its own merits in terms of gameplay or anything.

What they don’t understand is that this MMO was made that way intentionally, to change the way we look at MMO’s and to give us something that’s different than grinding a dungeon for gear so we can grind some more dungeons for gear so we can grind some more dungeons for gear. And they would have known this before they bought the game if they had just given the ANet blog a little peek instead of going, “Well, it’s an MMO, and all MMO’s are the same, so this should get my rocks off until pandas.”

derLoko.2185:

Before people start patting you on the back for being totally mature, non-mainstream, not brainwashed by WoW, etc, ask yourself this:

Is it good design if the rewards are screwed up? Does it make GW2 a better game?

Rhetorical question, really. No, it’s not the most important thing in an mmo, but it’s certainly something that can make an mmo more fun if done right.

Rewards go together with economy and playtime, not with game design. Is Mario Bros a bad game because you don’t get any permanent rewards at the end of a level? No, it’s a great game because of the gameplay. Would Guild Wars 2 be a bad game if it had no rewards at all? Sure it would, but only because you expect there to be rewards, not because the gameplay needs them.

Gaming has “shifted” no it hasnt, its always been about rewarding players for challenge, only in your head has it ever been otherwise.

All MMORPGs focus around this. all RPGs do aswell, progression and reward.

Seriously, stop defending this game because so many people are dissapointed with the direction it took and rightfully so.

Birdy.4816:

Gaming has “shifted” no it hasnt, its always been about rewarding players for challenge, only in your head has it ever been otherwise.

All MMORPGs focus around this. all RPGs do aswell, progression and reward.

Seriously, stop defending this game because so many people are dissapointed with the direction it took and rightfully so.

What was my reward for completing Sonic the Hedgehog?

Or Super Mario Bros.?

Or Tetris?

Or Pac-Man?

Yes… things have changed.

Birdy.4816:

Gaming has “shifted” no it hasnt, its always been about rewarding players for challenge, only in your head has it ever been otherwise.

All MMORPGs focus around this. all RPGs do aswell, progression and reward.

Seriously, stop defending this game because so many people are dissapointed with the direction it took and rightfully so.

One more time for good measure: We knew about the direction it was taking months, even years ago. Why didn’t you?

derLoko.2185:

Before people start patting you on the back for being totally mature, non-mainstream, not brainwashed by WoW, etc, ask yourself this:

Is it good design if the rewards are screwed up? Does it make GW2 a better game?

Rhetorical question, really. No, it’s not the most important thing in an mmo, but it’s certainly something that can make an mmo more fun if done right.

This is the problem. This sentence

Is it good design if the rewards are screwed up? Does it make GW2 a better game?

I’m asking you to specifically explain why you require cheese at the end of a maze in order for it to be a good maze, and you can’t just say, with 0 reward for finishing, wow that was a challenging maze.

I agree with Birdy in that there has not been a ‘shift’ in gaming.

The old games one would play at the arcade: High Scores.

All that has happened is that more game designers recognized that providing an incentive in the form of a reward is a good mechanism for keeping people attached to the game.

That reward can take many forms from loot (a visual character reward), a level (a character power reward) experience (a minor upgrade that counts towards the level reward), a high score (a visual reward), a cutscene (a visual reward), level completion (opening up a new level.)

A game like Super Mario Brothers has lots of rewards built into it. That’s part of the good game design. When you complete a particularly difficult level you get a new level and a new boss. You are rewarded with advancement. You are rewarded with points.

One of the things that made World of Warcraft so successful was how quickly one could get rewards and the constant rewarding of effort. Levels are rewards for time in.

All good games reward gameplay.

whiran.1473:

A game like Super Mario Brothers has lots of rewards built into it. That’s part of the good game design. When you complete a particularly difficult level you get a new level and a new boss. You are rewarded with advancement. You are rewarded with points.

Apply the same logic to GW2, are new areas and new bosses enough reward or do you need items for every perceived achievement too (by which I mean, whenever you feel you have achieved something rather than when you are given an actual in-game achievement)?

It was enough back when Super Mario Bros. came out, is it now?

The problem is there’s nothing.

Opening chests gives you awful loot, loot you can’t even wear.
Like 60 copper.

Unless you’re really pro, you’re probably going to get downed, but the loot you get doesn’t even cover the repair costs.

I know the cosmetics are there, but it’s a long term reward, we need SOME short term rewards.

Everyone crying about difficulty please leave though.

Jestunhi.7429

Apply the same logic to GW2, are new areas and new bosses enough reward or do you need items for every perceived achievement too (by which I mean, whenever you feel you have achieved something rather than when you are given an actual in-game achievement)?

It was enough back when Super Mario Bros. came out, is it now?

To me, it is more than enough. When I ran the dungeons for the first time I was really excited to down bosses and move on to the next one. The chests that appeared were secondary. We almost missed a couple of them and were told by someone who had run the dungeon before that there was a loot chest that we ran by.

I think that there is a trend towards providing too many rewards for trivial things but, in the context of the original post, reward systems have always been part of good game design. That particular element isn’t new or something that old school games did not have.

Untouch.2541:

The problem is there’s nothing.

xp

karma

currency

crafting components

junk to sell

gear

achievements

entertainment

I’m sure there are various other things which the game already gives you which I have missed out. Far from nothing.

:edit:

titles!

But you are misinterpreting it. The “rewards” I speak of are exactly that you get to try harder challenges, defeating the challenge is already its own reward. But then you get some people, and this is where the shift I’m talking about happens, while you and me are high fiveing over our victory over that super tough boss, this person opens the chest, gets a green item he can’t use and says “well that was a big waste of time”

Jestunhi.7429:

Birdy.4816:

Gaming has “shifted” no it hasnt, its always been about rewarding players for challenge, only in your head has it ever been otherwise.

All MMORPGs focus around this. all RPGs do aswell, progression and reward.

Seriously, stop defending this game because so many people are dissapointed with the direction it took and rightfully so.

What was my reward for completing Sonic the Hedgehog?

Or Super Mario Bros.?

Or Tetris?

Or Pac-Man?

Yes… things have changed.

Comparing RPGs to completely different genres and trying to make a valid point -_-

Mind blown.

Birdy.4816:

Comparing RPGs to completely different genres and trying to make a valid point -_-

Mind blown.

You’re just angry because the point it makes is valid. A game is a game. You’re insisting that limitless progression is some aspect that has to be in an MMO. That’s like claiming going prone and weapon customization has to be in an FPS game before it’s an FPS game.

A game can stand on its gameplay and not need a carrot chase. If a carrot chase is for you, then by all means, go back to the games that provide that, but please stop insisting that it’s somehow needed here for everyone just because it’s necessary for you to enjoy the game. Not everyone’s you.

It’s a genre thing. MMOs, and most RPGs for that matter, have rewards attached to time played. PnP D&D even had it. A “Good DM” knew how to reward the players with loot and experience equal to the challenge presented.

DusK.3849:

Birdy.4816:

Comparing RPGs to completely different genres and trying to make a valid point -_-

Mind blown.

You’re just angry because the point it makes is valid. A game is a game. You’re insisting that limitless progression is some aspect that has to be in an MMO. That’s like claiming going prone and weapon customization has to be in an FPS game before it’s an FPS game.

A game can stand on its gameplay and not need a carrot chase. If a carrot chase is for you, then by all means, go back to the games that provide that, but please stop insisting that it’s somehow needed here for everyone just because it’s necessary for you to enjoy the game. Not everyone’s you.

I think the level of forum posts speak for themselves, most of the people defending are not 80, most who are criticizing are.

and like I have said before, you can keep being in denial all you like, all the successful long term mmos focus on this aspect.

And im willing to bet arenanet will with this game from now and all you defenders will change your tune.

Birdy.4816:

Jestunhi.7429:

Birdy.4816:

Gaming has “shifted” no it hasnt, its always been about rewarding players for challenge, only in your head has it ever been otherwise.

All MMORPGs focus around this. all RPGs do aswell, progression and reward.

Seriously, stop defending this game because so many people are dissapointed with the direction it took and rightfully so.

What was my reward for completing Sonic the Hedgehog?

Or Super Mario Bros.?

Or Tetris?

Or Pac-Man?

Yes… things have changed.

Comparing RPGs to completely different genres and trying to make a valid point -_-

Mind blown.

Here’s the problem, when was the decree given that mmo’s must have loot based incentives at every turn to keep you interested?

There is no law, there is no rule, there is nothing that says it must be so. You have decided that this rule must be adhered to in order for a mmo to succeed.

Now gw2 does provide shiny loot for you to get, there’s several sets of them in lions arch, they are obtainable using lvl 80 crafted rares. At 80 I spent 2g. 2 gold, that’s right, two gold. I bought a full set of crafted lvl 80 rare armor.

I am now 4/6 exotic and will be getting another piece today. The loot is already there for you to get. Just because a mmoer biscuit doesn’t pop out of each chest I open, is no reason for me to stop doing dungeons after I’m full exotic. I look forward to the challenges each and every explorable path holds.

Everyone is right here…
The challenge should be the reward, and it is for many, myself included. But this genre of game – the progression, the search for better gear – encourages a negative reaction when it doesnt live upto expectation.
Trouble is often people expect (or think they deserve) way to much

Birdy.4816:

DusK.3849:

Birdy.4816:

Comparing RPGs to completely different genres and trying to make a valid point -_-

Mind blown.

You’re just angry because the point it makes is valid. A game is a game. You’re insisting that limitless progression is some aspect that has to be in an MMO. That’s like claiming going prone and weapon customization has to be in an FPS game before it’s an FPS game.

A game can stand on its gameplay and not need a carrot chase. If a carrot chase is for you, then by all means, go back to the games that provide that, but please stop insisting that it’s somehow needed here for everyone just because it’s necessary for you to enjoy the game. Not everyone’s you.

I think the level of forum posts speak for themselves, most of the people defending are not 80, most who are criticizing are.

and like I have said before, you can keep being in denial all you like, all the successful long term mmos focus on this aspect.

And im willing to bet arenanet will with this game from now and all you defenders will change your tune.

I am not in denial and I’m not defending, I’m asking you, how come overcoming tough challenges doesn’t give you a sense of accomplishment if something shiny and useful doesn’t appear.

Arenanet already said they aren’t following that standard you speak of like those other long term mmo’s. They said this over and over again well before release. It would be no different than if someone told you a dozen times, that pan is hot don’t touch, but you touch it anyway and you look angrily at that person and say, wtf that pan is hot.

Jestunhi.7429:

Untouch.2541:

The problem is there’s nothing.

xp

karma

currency

crafting components

junk to sell

gear

achievements

entertainment

I’m sure there are various other things which the game already gives you which I have missed out. Far from nothing.

:edit:

titles!

Don’t get titles from dungeons as far as I’m concerned.
You get barely any junk to sell, or crafting components, that’s the PROBLEM everyone is trying to address.
Don’t get karma either.
Gear is less than my current gear too.
I can get more money from doing DEs.

To quote the line said in this comic… http://www.nerfnow.com/comic/829

“Fun is nice, but carrots are tasty, especially when they are unreachable.”

The problem is that gaming has become acceptable to the masses.

When gaming was niche, it was only played by those who enjoyed the game for its challenge, humor and fun. My pacman wore the same gear in every map. My eyeballs were the same color as everyone else’s in Haunted House. I look the same as everyone else in Dear Esther.

When the general populous got their hands on video games, it started to turn into some kind of stick/carrot “required” garbage. I suspect that the self-entitled baby-boomer generation is the majority of the whiner crowd. I have no stats or proof of this, just a general disgust toward the me-me-me generation.

Would still like a definitive answer if possible.

The “ME” generation is an ill side effect of a corporate society, sadly. “Gotta get mine” and all that. Have to have something for my time. If it’s not 100% efficient it’s broken, etc etc.
We hear CEOs of large corporations whining all the time about the unfairness of the Market and so on. They are out to get theirs and that trickles down as people see that as how they achieve success. Makes me wanna slap em and say welcome to life… – but, back to RPGs and so on.

The carrot on a stick, however, didn’t start suddenly. It’s a core mechanic of the genre (RPGs) reaching back to PnP D&D. A good DM knew how to reward his/her players with XP and Loot balanced to the encounters. (think I may have said that earlier – I’ve slept since then)

To the topic question: Do I need loot (rewards) to keep playing? No. I do not need loot to keep playing. In fact, I would enjoy the game a lot more IF I could get the desired “look” of my character out of the way so that I could then get back to playing for fun vs playing to “get mine”. – Hope that makes since.

PS. @Craven – Haunted House was a great game – Atari 2600 times. \o/

What you said makes perfect sense to me but I would like to know why a non loot incentive based rpg can’t be accepted. As someone posted a comic link above, imagine a game that you logged into not to chase a carrot on a stick, but cause it had challenging and fun gameplay.

There is nothing wrong with current dungeon system. If I beat all paths on particular dungeon, I’m not gonna go back there again, there is no reason to do it. I’ve seen the encounter, I killed the boss, I’ve seen the story.

Birdy.4816:

Gaming has “shifted” no it hasnt, its always been about rewarding players for challenge, only in your head has it ever been otherwise.

All MMORPGs focus around this. all RPGs do aswell, progression and reward.

Seriously, stop defending this game because so many people are dissapointed with the direction it took and rightfully so.

I love this game. I don’t love what MMO gaming’s become, and it bothers me that ANet’s had to change, nerf, and bend over backwards to deal with the creeps trying to drag this game down.

It’ll settle in the end and things will calm down, but it is a shame that element’s shown up here. I am a GW1 player and I don’t like how folks from other MMOs are angry at ANet and wanting it to change.

You KNEW what game you were getting. It’s a good game. Stop trying to change it.

@Swagman – an action based RPG without loot or “shinnies” can’t be and wont be considered an RPG unless the growth mechanic is simply tied to other factors. Removing the growth factor and we simply have an action title.
RPGs as a genre have character growth as a key focus. The characters grow either through stats or gear. Once the stats have maxed out, gear must be the focus.

It could then be a limitless growth system or one that plateaus out, but there must be growth to some point.

I’m with you to some degree. Give me the shinnies*, get it out of the way and let me just enjoy the ride. Champions Online does that to a really good point. Create the character I want, play through content, tweak stats and get loot that makes no visual difference on the character at all. As time progresses, unlock new character “costumes” where I am free to re-outfit and change looks at my leisure.
The Secret World (which I really like and am hoping it goes b2p or f2p) does this to a point as well. Create your character, buy clothes and play. As you go, pick up QL (quality level) drops that are like gaining levels – it’s a completely different system and I felt it works pretty well. – key thing though, there’s still growth.

*To clarify; I don’t mean hand them too me. Rather, don’t put them behind a mind numbing grind fest that turns me into a drooling mindless zombie. Let me run a dungeon through story and all paths via explorable and reward me with at least 75% of the dungeon set. Now I’ve tasted the carrot and will likely go back; and will return when guildies ask for help or it’s alt time.

I ‘m a lot like the OP, but at the same time, to get an achievement or loot for something (as I’m a 100% of the game type of player) is also an equal value as to just the reward of beating something as long as there’s self accomplishment through challenge. Gear means nothing to me if it doesn’t serve its purpose of fulfilling the bigger picture/goal as was in GW 1 with stuff required for hall of monuments and other stuff wasn’t. Its why I have no Yellow or orange gear (one piece) on me (I’m lv 64) and only stuff at or near my level that works just as well. If its too easy to complete something its no fun and I must find something much more difficult.

I had fights like this in my guilds in GW 1 all the time, And many guilds I left over the issue rather than be treated like kitten. They were all using PVX kitten gimmick builds or FotM builds in pvp where I already did my own thing and kept the game challenging and fun and was still good at what I did, not the monotony of spam one skill (discord), receive loot, repeat.

You call that fun? Says a lot about who they are as a person and what their values are, and who they vote for, who believe in, work ethic, etc.

@Wasaguest

I can completely understand what you mean and your post is well done. But 1 aspect that is still slightly confusing to me is your finite definition of an RPG giving its shinnys based incentives to move forward. Give me your take on this example that I believe goes against this.

The super NES game Chrono Trigger is still hailed in the top 10 of greatest RPGs ever made. Now this game has a unique feature (or unique at the time) called New Game + that allowed you to restart the game with all your gear, spells, level, everything. Now I may be the minority here but I’ve played through the new game + mode more times than I know. The game allowed you to get several different endings depending on what point in the game you decided to kill the games last boss (when you start new game + a portal to the last boss became available from the start)

After a certain point there was nothing more for me to obtain, I had the best gear, the best spells, everything. But I continued to replay the game wanting to see how else I could end the story.

In gw2 the explorable dungeon separate paths are similar to this. With the added bonus that the content will remain challenging. I don’t need the extra fluff loot because gw2 has allowed me to shape the character I want and his look (which I’m close to finishing).

So when I finish my dungeon set I will happily run around doing and redoing dungeons or WvW as the role I have shaped for me to play. The incentive for me is to make a kitten looking character then prance him all over the place looking kitten.

@Swagman – I guess I didn’t explain it too well. I’ll try this route:

“Shinnies” can be anything that improves a factor of one’s character within an RPG. Usually, “shinnies” are drops, loot, goodies, gear, toys, etc. However, “shinnies” can also mean that screen flash when one levels up. In other words, something that constantly shows growth.
Low Level caps are often frowned upon because it limits growth. GW1 fought against this stigma, and, if you ask me, broke it fairly well.
Gaining new skills can also be the “shinnies”.
And so on.

In GW2, the “Shinnies” are mainly for looks. That’s the goal. Get the good looking stuff. Once that goal is met, will people stop playing? No. And I’ll address that in a moment.

The example you use shows the power plateau I spoke of. In an electronic RPG (video game) there has to be a limit somewhere. In PnP, the DM can simply adjust the rules as he/she goes. That’s simply too difficult for a video game to do. Expansions may increase the level or they may not. What they will do, is always release new “shinnies” in one of the above listed rewards. It’s like when we were kids and finding that dime on the street. “Sweet! A coin.” or the Scritt “Ooooh! Shiny!” then runs off to get himself killed. >:)

One thing you said that stands out to me is this (and returning to “will people stop playing”):

“So when I finish my dungeon set I will happily run around doing and redoing…”

Here in lies the “grind” we are reading about so much (all over the forum and in game). It’s a self inflicted “grind” imposed by design. People want their “shinnies” so they can do exactly what you said you will happily do. Earn their armor and then get back to playing. Trouble is, that armor is behind massive amounts of grind and repetition. – I’ll stop there as it may derail if anyone assumes too much rather than take what I said at face value.

Here is the problem I have with this argument from the OP. The expectation of being rewarded isn’t from some “shift” in gaming, or even from other MMO’s/RPG’s. From the first story mission in this game, GW2, you get rewards for completion. You get XP and rewards for everything you do in this game, its one of the main seilling points REMEMBER? It isn’t some strange new generation concept that anyone is foisting on this game, for 1-80 levels, THIS game acts in exactly that manner. Suddenly at 80 or for farming dungeons that is supposedly not valid anymore? Your argument fails on it’s face.

I for one am completely fine with rewards being solely cosmetic. I am fine with some rewards taking a long time. I am not fine with hypocritical behavior. Creating grind and then saying we are anti-grind is just so.

And for the record several dungeons weren’t “fun” to begin with. (AC just sucks, story or explorable) People grinding CoF weren’t finding that fun either, but they did at least find it rewarding. Now it is reverted to being just no fun again. Anet needs to fix the glitchy, unfun, overtuned and expensive to run dungeons and the fact that it is now way easier for a player to go broke than to make money. If the game is not about being rewarded, itkittensure shouldn’t be so good at punishing players, and should actually be more fun. I don’t expect this to do this by emulating WoW, that would make me puke, I expect this to happen by Anet taking action to fix the bugs that make their game less than it should be.

Yes Wasaguest, I understand your point more now but please do allow me, my fine fellow, to retort with a perspective of my own.

While I will admit those dungeon token gears are a bit of a grind, it is from my WoW eyes that I look upon them. I suppose I should not be so imposing as to assume others have had the same experience as I, although I do know some have had it worse.

The typical wow grind almost always involved more than 5 players, depending on the time, more than 30. Organizing these players was difficult enough but also competing against them for the gear, and a spot to participate, along with a rng loot system, coupled with week long lockouts made the acquisition of such gear take in some cases several months. And don’t like the way tier 1 looks? Well too bad you have to get it for the next tier.

And then you show me gw2 and say, well whatever set you want is available to you you’ll just have to amass about 1k of these tokens from the runs. Now I can achieve my goal at my own pace, marvelous!

Let me answer the new questions like this:

People are like Skritts
All they think about is shiny
Nothing more, nor less.

Daihe.8275:

People are different. You just have to accept that.

Totally 100% agreed. People find enjoyment in a million different ways.

Swagman.9013:

Yes Wasaguest, I understand your point more now but please do allow me, my fine fellow, to retort with a perspective of my own.

While I will admit those dungeon token gears are a bit of a grind, it is from my WoW eyes that I look upon them. I suppose I should not be so imposing as to assume others have had the same experience as I, although I do know some have had it worse.

The typical wow grind almost always involved more than 5 players, depending on the time, more than 30. Organizing these players was difficult enough but also competing against them for the gear, and a spot to participate, along with a rng loot system, coupled with week long lockouts made the acquisition of such gear take in some cases several months. And don’t like the way tier 1 looks? Well too bad you have to get it for the next tier.

And then you show me gw2 and say, well whatever set you want is available to you you’ll just have to amass about 1k of these tokens from the runs. Now I can achieve my goal at my own pace, marvelous!

I don’t disagree at all.
But that was never the theme of discussion… unless I missed it? hehe

It was about having to chase the “shiny” to stay interested. In which case, I was merely answering the topic and explaining best I could (from my point of view) without leading the conversation down the usually assumed “Gimme Now” call outs… which is not what I feel is good when some type of growth is always needed.

I think we agree pretty much. You feel there shouldn’t need to be a carrot. I agree. GW system of carrot is looks. Apply that to this topic, you and I will both keep playing probably long after we have gotten our “looks”. Whether it’s behind a wall of grind or far easier to get; either way it’s still the adventure, game play that we want to focus on.
The difference is (I think), I feel focused on getting that look before I get too much into the adventure.

I love having a complete dungeon set just as much as the next person ( probably more so since ive been a complete recluse in SE till I’m done). But sometimes I break down and go do a different dungeon or WvW or something. We may be more similar in those regards than you think.

I dont want reward, I just want money.
If reward = money so be it

How else am I supposed to explore the world, travel around tyria using the high costs of waypoints?

Wack away at mobs and loot corpses like an OCD necrophiliac?
No thanks rather not.

If a dungeon provides a stable steady cash flow for the amount of effort being put in, I’ll take the it.

But if I cant find a sustainable source of income to pay for the crazy ingame tax, not a problem, PVP.

mess up with how many times a day I can pvp with then we have a serious problem arenanet.

You’ve basically turned guildwars2 into guildwars where you set a clear boundary between PVP and PVE content, now that youve made PVE a mind numbing chore of kill and loot to pay your ingame taxes and refuse to step down from this stance, its fine, No problem Ill enjoy your wonderful PVP but if you set a limit for how many times or hours i can PVP for… Ill just go play another game like your fan boys and girls suggested