Guild Wars 2

Vayne.8563:

Dude this is tiresome. I said they’ve said, so of course there are quotes. Because I don’t care to do your research for you, you can google the first year anniversary infograph which includes all kinds of stats you don’t get without metrics. Then there’s this…

Yepp it is. And I won’t back away just because you want me to. I’m here to express my thoughts same as you are. If you can’t provide proof to back your claims then I certainly won’t search for them. I just rather won’t believe you. Well I wouldn’t believe you either way because I’m sure that the proof that you have is more or less proof that you got by reading between the lines and not actual claims where they say “we have metrics and we know exactly what players want”

Vayne.8563:

A lot of stuff is being said about the current patch and stuff like who the hell needs the downed state to not start til level 5. This is the reply Colin gave on reddit, which I’ve already posted to two other threads.

Like i said. reading between the lines

Vayne.8563:

To paraphrase they extensively tested the leveling process in a number of markets with a number of people. They were surprised by some of the results. They tried various solutions. The level five thing is the one that worked. I’m sure someone can provide the link for you, hell it’s probably in this thread somewhere.

What does that answer tell you about Anet and metrics?

Exactly what I’m saying from the start. That they don’t have any kind of info on what players want since it’s not implemented in game yet. Anet decided to change the leveling system and THEN went to test it out. They didn’t decided to change it because it was the most demanded feature. Because they. can’t. know. that. EASY AS THAT.

Vayne.8563:

Anet is a company and companies don’t know anything.

Don’t start this semantic crap to weasel out of the question. You’re the one that called them Anet. Anet is the company and it includes the people in it.

You obviously understand what I mean, so seriously, stop this semantics crap and answer my question.

Vayne.8563:

The major complaint of this thread, taken in context, is saying that Anet the developers, the people making the updates, don’t know what players want.

And to some degree, that is accurate. If they are human, and they are infallible, then they can’t possibly know what the players want. Data and Metrics are only worthwhile if they can be properly interpreted.

Clearly Anet does not interpret correctly all the time.

Vayne.8563:

Aside from the obvious fact that this is a deeply divided player base, and the fact that Anet has some kind of metrics, it’s more logical that they would know what’s going on than we would.

Again, having metrics and interpreting metrics are two entirely different things.

Vayne.8563:

So you take one single decision to hold up as an example, that’s likely not to have been made by developers at all,

Can you prove this? Are you really going to suggest that the devs have zero input on how the things they design are going to be implemented?

Vayne.8563:

It proves you’ll go to great lengths to win arguments,.

Says the guy that uses words like believe in one breath but paints those beliefs as fact in the next breath. The guy that goes on and on about “metrics” and “data” and ignores that having said data is worthless if the people in charge can’t properly interpret that data.

But no, you don’t try to win arguments at any length. I mean, you don’t have to. Because Anet is completely infallible, and perfectly understands what the playerbase wants. I mean, they must. With all that data that told them to sell tag colors at 300g per.

,

what I was saying was pretty clear.

And what I was saying was pretty clear in reference to Anet as a company.

Yet you decided to try and be witty or snarky by saying “Companies can’t make decisions, it’s the people”

Vayne.8563:

Spira.4578:

Vayne.8563:

Dude this is tiresome. I said they’ve said, so of course there are quotes. Because I don’t care to do your research for you, you can google the first year anniversary infograph which includes all kinds of stats you don’t get without metrics. Then there’s this…

Yepp it is. And I won’t back away just because you want me to. I’m here to express my thoughts same as you are. If you can’t provide proofs to back your claims then I certainly won’t search for them. I just rather won’t believe you. Well I wouldn’t believe you either way because I’m sure that those proof that you have were proofs that you got by reading between the lines and not actual claims where they say “we have metrics and we know exactly what players want”

Vayne.8563:

A lot of stuff is being said about the current patch and stuff like who the hell needs the downed state to not start til level 5. This is the reply Colin gave on reddit, which I’ve already posted to two other threads.

Like i said. reading between the lines

Vayne.8563:

To paraphrase they extensively tested the leveling process in a number of markets with a number of people. They were surprised by some of the results. They tried various solutions. The level five thing is the one that worked. I’m sure someone can provide the link for you, hell it’s probably in this thread somewhere.

What does that answer tell you about Anet and metrics?

Exactly what I’m saying from the start. That they don’t have any kind of info on what players want since it’s not implemented in game yet. Anet decided to change the leveling system and THEN went to test it out. They didn’t decided to change it because it was the most demanded feature. Because they. can’t. know. that. EASY AS THAT.

They talked about tests up front too, which is why they added the heart system. They had questionaires in beta about every single event. You don’t call those metrics.

They posted an infographic with very specific data on it from the first year. Those are things they’ve been tracking (which some would call metrics).

If you’re too lazy to search for the infographic, why should I do it for you? Just because you haven’t seen something I’ve seen? Like I said, the information is out there. One of us is choosing to ignore it.

From the same reply that you mentioned:
“Honestly, we were kind of shocked how many systems, downed included a surprising number of players just didn’t understand”
Try not to read between the lines now.
Nice metrics they have there. They only figured out 2 years after release. nice metrics.

Spira.4578:

Vayne.8563:

Spira.4578:

Vayne.8563:

Dude this is tiresome. I said they’ve said, so of course there are quotes. Because I don’t care to do your research for you, you can google the first year anniversary infograph which includes all kinds of stats you don’t get without metrics. Then there’s this…

Yepp it is. And I won’t back away just because you want me to. I’m here to express my thoughts same as you are. If you can’t provide proofs to back your claims then I certainly won’t search for them. I just rather won’t believe you. Well I wouldn’t believe you either way because I’m sure that those proof that you have were proofs that you got by reading between the lines and not actual claims where they say “we have metrics and we know exactly what players want”

Vayne.8563:

A lot of stuff is being said about the current patch and stuff like who the hell needs the downed state to not start til level 5. This is the reply Colin gave on reddit, which I’ve already posted to two other threads.

Like i said. reading between the lines

Vayne.8563:

To paraphrase they extensively tested the leveling process in a number of markets with a number of people. They were surprised by some of the results. They tried various solutions. The level five thing is the one that worked. I’m sure someone can provide the link for you, hell it’s probably in this thread somewhere.

What does that answer tell you about Anet and metrics?

Exactly what I’m saying from the start. That they don’t have any kind of info on what players want since it’s not implemented in game yet. Anet decided to change the leveling system and THEN went to test it out. They didn’t decided to change it because it was the most demanded feature. Because they. can’t. know. that. EASY AS THAT.

They talked about tests up front too, which is why they added the heart system. They had questionaires in beta about every single event. You don’t call those metrics.

They posted an infographic with very specific data on it from the first year. Those are things they’ve been tracking (which some would call metrics).

If you’re too lazy to search for the infographic, why should I do it for you? Just because you haven’t seen something I’ve seen? Like I said, the information is out there. One of us is choosing to ignore it.

From the same reply that you mentioned:
“Honestly, we were kind of shocked how many systems, downed included a surprising number of players just didn’t understand”
Try not to read between the lines now.
Nice metrics they have there. They only figured out 2 years after release. nice metrics.

You discount all the questionaries in beta? Good.

Point noted. They didn’t ask questions they didn’t htink they needed to and later refined them. Business as usual.

Still proves they have and use metrics.

Vayne.8563:

You discount all the questionaries in beta? Good.

Point noted. They didn’t ask questions they didn’t htink they needed to and later refined them. Business as usual.

Still proves they have and use metrics.

Really?
because :“interviews with players who tried Gw2 and left leading up to China launch both in NA/EU and in China” Kinda shows that they realized that after the release on China.
Just stop. Seriously. You lost your own argument by presenting your proof that proved the exact opposite of what you were trying to say and now you’re grasping at straws.
Seriously.. Stop being so naive and so overprotective.

Spira.4578:

Vayne.8563:

The proof about metrics is in stuff they’ve posted. Either they’re lying or they have metrics. It’s what they’ve said. I don’t believe they’re lying because I know something about business.

Can you show me some actual post about this kind of metrics?

John Smith.4610:

Rouven.7409:

… you have to love numbers, perhaps you could tease us with some numbers. I don’t know, x bazillion oozes squished since launch and they dropped x gold total. Pretty please with interest on top.

Just this month 7,496,080 Oozes have been dealt with.

I don’t have a direct quote, but one “red” post about how much data is collected through the game logs made the comment, “we know your shoe size.” An exaggeration for the purpose of a humorous response, but not much of an exaggeration. Pretty much anything any player does in the game is recorded and can be analyzed.

Spira.4578:

Vayne.8563:

You discount all the questionaries in beta? Good.

Point noted. They didn’t ask questions they didn’t htink they needed to and later refined them. Business as usual.

Still proves they have and use metrics.

Really?
because :“interviews with players who tried Gw2 and left leading up to China launch both in NA/EU and in China” Kinda shows that they realized that after the release on China.
Just stop. Seriously. You lost your own argument by presenting your proof that proved the exact opposite of what you were trying to say and now you’re grasping at straws.
Seriously.. Stop being so naive and so overprotective.

Dude, in the original beta, they had questionaires for every single event. All of them. That proves they have metrics.

During the first anniversary they posted some of those metrics to an infographic.

Thinking that a company that has metrics will do EVERYTHING right is silly.

Thinking that the guys on the forum know more about what’s going on than the people with the data is even more silly.

I think most people in business have been confronted with this before. I’ve met it many times. People making suggestions you should do X or Y when they’ve been tried and tested and are completely unviable.

Everyone thinks they can manage a baseball team to a world series, until they actually try it.

tolunart.2095:

Spira.4578:

Vayne.8563:

The proof about metrics is in stuff they’ve posted. Either they’re lying or they have metrics. It’s what they’ve said. I don’t believe they’re lying because I know something about business.

Can you show me some actual post about this kind of metrics?

John Smith.4610:

Rouven.7409:

… you have to love numbers, perhaps you could tease us with some numbers. I don’t know, x bazillion oozes squished since launch and they dropped x gold total. Pretty please with interest on top.

Just this month 7,496,080 Oozes have been dealt with.

I don’t have a direct quote, but one “red” post about how much data is collected through the game logs made the comment, “we know your shoe size.” An exaggeration for the purpose of a humorous response, but not much of an exaggeration. Pretty much anything any player does in the game is recorded and can be analyzed.

I agree. however it can’t track players wishes. since the features are not implemented ingame players can’t use them. For anet to know what players want, they have to ask them, not look at statistics.

A stupid example but still –
If there’s a restaurant that don’t have pizza on their menu, will the owner know, if pizzas are what his customers want most only by looking at the statistics of what was sold most? No – the only way to know that is if the costumers start asking about it, so the word gets to the owner and start thinking in that direction.

Vayne.8563:

Dude, in the original beta, they had questionaires for every single event. All of them. That proves they have metrics.

During the first anniversary they posted some of those metrics to an infographic.

Thinking that a company that has metrics will do EVERYTHING right is silly.

Thinking that the guys on the forum know more about what’s going on than the people with the data is even more silly.

I think most people in business have been confronted with this before. I’ve met it many times. People making suggestions you should do X or Y when they’ve been tried and tested and are completely unviable.

Everyone thinks they can manage a baseball team to a world series, until they actually try it.

beta =/= 2 years after final release
Things change A LOT and so does the player base.

Metrics won’t know what players want in the future, only what players did in the past.

You wrote “Thinking that a company that has metrics will do EVERYTHING right is silly”
so stop saying that and admit that they did a mistake and that they should be focusing on end game.
“the guy on the forum” is actually their costumer. and costumers know best.

You also wrote “Everyone thinks they can manage a baseball team to a world series, until they actually try it.” indeed. same goes for you. so stop complaining. I made a suggestion and that’s it. k? k.

Spira.4578:

tolunart.2095:

Spira.4578:

Vayne.8563:

The proof about metrics is in stuff they’ve posted. Either they’re lying or they have metrics. It’s what they’ve said. I don’t believe they’re lying because I know something about business.

Can you show me some actual post about this kind of metrics?

John Smith.4610:

Rouven.7409:

… you have to love numbers, perhaps you could tease us with some numbers. I don’t know, x bazillion oozes squished since launch and they dropped x gold total. Pretty please with interest on top.

Just this month 7,496,080 Oozes have been dealt with.

I don’t have a direct quote, but one “red” post about how much data is collected through the game logs made the comment, “we know your shoe size.” An exaggeration for the purpose of a humorous response, but not much of an exaggeration. Pretty much anything any player does in the game is recorded and can be analyzed.

I agree. however it can’t track players wishes. since the features are not implemented ingame players can’t use them. For anet to know what players want, they have to ask them, not look at statistics.

A stupid example but still –
If there’s a restaurant that don’t have pizza on their menu, will the owner know, if pizzas are what his customers want most only by looking at the statistics of what was sold most? No – the only way to know that is if the costumers start asking about it, so the word gets to the owner and start thinking in that direction.

We know that, but the common complaint right now is that this patch wasn’t needed. That’s what people are saying. Anet is doing stuff because they don’t understand what’s needed.

Why can’t you acknowledge at least that chance that they really do know some stuff is needed? They can’t provide everything all at once. So they’re giving us stuff now they had to do for China anyway.

Why? Because their metrics show it’s needed. That’s all I’m saying.

You’re saying they’re not listening. If they’ve talked to people and changed things based on that data, they very much are listening by definition.

Spira.4578:

From the same reply that you mentioned:
“Honestly, we were kind of shocked how many systems, downed included a surprising number of players just didn’t understand”
Try not to read between the lines now.
Nice metrics they have there. They only figured out 2 years after release. nice metrics.

Not sure what you’re getting at. No matter how much data you collect, you can’t answer a question you didn’t ask. For players coming from traditional single-player games, dying means you have to reload from a previous save point, it’s a different experience from those who are used to MMO gameplay and respawning.

No one is saying Anet devs are perfect or always make the right decisions. There have been a number of occasions when they did something wrong and they have admitted as much. Exploits like the situation just after launch where some karma vendor weapons were mispriced or the Snowflake exploit. Final Rest was bugged for many months before they realized that no one had ever obtained one. John Smith once mentioned that they miscalculated when creating a “candy corn sink” last year. Etc.

But they’ve done thousands of things right, far more than their missteps. The fact is that GW2 is a casual-focused game, and a lot of the players don’t care about “endgame” activities like raids. There are some activities for those who do care, like fractals, but since they do not represent the majority of players the majority of the devs efforts are not focused on them.

If you want a hardcore MMO experience, play a different game, you’re not going to find what you want here.

Vayne.8563:

Anet knows how many people are in game, and how many are posting on forums. It’s another metric. They also know what percentage are posting and what percentage are lurking.

Since Anet has told us about these metrics and since it’s completely logical and even normal for a business to have them, why would you doubt them? Do you have evidence that Anet doesn’t have them? Because it seems to be quite certain that they they do, down to which creature killed the most players during the first year of play.

You better just play!
Don’t post a QQ!
Cuz metrics reveal
Everything that you do!
Metrics make the game great for you!

They know where you’ve been farming!
Though you may think them blind!
They know when you have bought no gems
So buy now! And grind, grind, grind!

Metrics, shmetrics. Or, to put it another way, while they surely do have access to all that metrical knowledge, in all that metrical detail, there’s no way for us to know whether they are interpreting it correctly, or that they’re even attempting to interpret it at all. For all we know they could write the word ‘metrics’ on a dart and toss it at a dartboard, and then say (in all honesty) “We did this or that because metrics indicated this or that would be good to do.”

Ultimately, it’s what they choose to do with all that metrical knowledge that counts. And what they are choosing to do with it certainly seems to be causing widespread and increasing unhappiness, and in more places than just here on the forums.

And remember, fellow forumites:

You better not pout!
You better not groan!
Here have a few more
Porous bones!
Metrics make the game great for you!

Tachenon.5270:

Vayne.8563:

Anet knows how many people are in game, and how many are posting on forums. It’s another metric. They also know what percentage are posting and what percentage are lurking.

Since Anet has told us about these metrics and since it’s completely logical and even normal for a business to have them, why would you doubt them? Do you have evidence that Anet doesn’t have them? Because it seems to be quite certain that they they do, down to which creature killed the most players during the first year of play.

You better just play!
Don’t post a QQ!
Cuz metrics reveal
Everything that you do!
Metrics make the game great for you!

They know where you’ve been farming!
Though you may think them blind!
They know when you have bought no gems
So buy now! And grind, grind, grind!

Metrics, shmetrics. Or, to put it another way, while they surely do have access to all that metrical knowledge, in all that metrical detail, there’s no way for us to know whether they are interpreting it correctly, or that they’re even attempting to interpret it at all. For all we know they could write the word ‘metrics’ on a dart and toss it at a dartboard, and then say (in all honesty) “We did this or that because metrics indicated this or that would be good to do.”

Ultimately, it’s what they choose to do with all that metrical knowledge that counts. And what they are choosing to do with it certainly seems to be causing widespread and increasing unhappiness, and in more places than just here on the forums.

And remember, fellow forumites:

You better not pout!
You better not groan!
Here have a few more
Porous bones!
Metrics make the game great for you!

Great writing. Bad points.

The whole point is is that players think they know everything and they don’t. Devs don’t know everything either.

But if you are going to make a decision about the game, I’d trust devs over players pretty much all the time.

I’ve seen what player input does to games.

Spira.4578:

I agree. however it can’t track players wishes. since the features are not implemented ingame players can’t use them. For anet to know what players want, they have to ask them, not look at statistics.

A stupid example but still –
If there’s a restaurant that don’t have pizza on their menu, will the owner know, if pizzas are what his customers want most only by looking at the statistics of what was sold most? No – the only way to know that is if the costumers start asking about it, so the word gets to the owner and start thinking in that direction.

True, but if you go to an Indian restaurant and request that they add pizza to the menu, it’s probably not going to happen. Even if a lot of people request it, and they do add it to the menu, the pizza probably won’t be as good as the pizza served in an Italian restaurant.

Anet does study their metrics, and they learn a lot about player behavior that way. If 30% of their players spent most of their time in WvW that would tell them that improving and expanding WvW should be a priority. If 30% of their players ran dungeons every day then they would make more dungeons and/or improve the ones they have. If less than 10% did these activities than they are not going to be such high priorities.

Posters on the forums tend to believe that most players play the game the way they do. And they tend to hang out with people who do – such as joining a WvW focused guild. So therefore things that are important to the poster should be high priority, but they fail to realize that the majority of players don’t necessarily do the same activities the poster does.

Anet looks at the game and its players as a whole, not just what is important to a specific individual. So their choices will not always be yours.

Vayne.8563:

Why can’t you acknowledge at least that chance that they really do know some stuff is needed? They can’t provide everything all at once. So they’re giving us stuff now they had to do for China anyway.

Not everything – as i said – just toward that direction instead of early game they should focus on end game by now.

Vayne.8563:

Why? Because their metrics show it’s needed. That’s all I’m saying.

They don’t. they were shocked at the results. they didn’t know that. and they don’t know what players want cause metrics frmo 2 years ago won’t show them that info.

Vayne.8563:

Tachenon.5270:

Vayne.8563:

Anet knows how many people are in game, and how many are posting on forums. It’s another metric. They also know what percentage are posting and what percentage are lurking.

Since Anet has told us about these metrics and since it’s completely logical and even normal for a business to have them, why would you doubt them? Do you have evidence that Anet doesn’t have them? Because it seems to be quite certain that they they do, down to which creature killed the most players during the first year of play.

You better just play!
Don’t post a QQ!
Cuz metrics reveal
Everything that you do!
Metrics make the game great for you!

They know where you’ve been farming!
Though you may think them blind!
They know when you have bought no gems
So buy now! And grind, grind, grind!

Metrics, shmetrics. Or, to put it another way, while they surely do have access to all that metrical knowledge, in all that metrical detail, there’s no way for us to know whether they are interpreting it correctly, or that they’re even attempting to interpret it at all. For all we know they could write the word ‘metrics’ on a dart and toss it at a dartboard, and then say (in all honesty) “We did this or that because metrics indicated this or that would be good to do.”

Ultimately, it’s what they choose to do with all that metrical knowledge that counts. And what they are choosing to do with it certainly seems to be causing widespread and increasing unhappiness, and in more places than just here on the forums.

And remember, fellow forumites:

You better not pout!
You better not groan!
Here have a few more
Porous bones!
Metrics make the game great for you!

Great writing. Bad points.

The whole point is is that players think they know everything and they don’t. Devs don’t know everything either.

But if you are going to make a decision about the game, I’d trust devs over players pretty much all the time.

I’ve seen what player input does to games.

Yeah I am leaning more to Vaynes points even though I can understand both sides points.

P.S GREAT SONG! Made me laugh! You have a talent there my friend! (100% serious no sarcasm!) +1 for the song!

tolunart.2095:

True, but if you go to an Indian restaurant and request that they add pizza to the menu, it’s probably not going to happen. Even if a lot of people request it, and they do add it to the menu, the pizza probably won’t be as good as the pizza served in an Italian restaurant.

Are you trying to say that guild wars is not for players that already reached level 80?

tolunart.2095:

Anet does study their metrics, and they learn a lot about player behavior that way. If 30% of their players spent most of their time in WvW that would tell them that improving and expanding WvW should be a priority. If 30% of their players ran dungeons every day then they would make more dungeons and/or improve the ones they have. If less than 10% did these activities than they are not going to be such high priorities.

Posters on the forums tend to believe that most players play the game the way they do. And they tend to hang out with people who do – such as joining a WvW focused guild. So therefore things that are important to the poster should be high priority, but they fail to realize that the majority of players don’t necessarily do the same activities the poster does.

Anet looks at the game and its players as a whole, not just what is important to a specific individual. So their choices will not always be yours.

I never said they should focus on a specific aspect of the game. I only said that they should be focusing on any kind of end game content/features because most of their playerbase is already level 80 and those that still aren’t will be soon thanks to the easy leveling.

First, there are far too many comparisons of apples and car batteries here. You cannot use retail business models in a clear way to prove a point about MMORPGs.

This game suffers from a few things, but leveling isn’t one of them. While the leveling experience can be tedious (especially with the implementation of the trait system), first time play-through and exploration are far more the focus. I also have an issue with these focus groups providing feedback about the leveling experience, since these focus groups are often oriented in whats wrong with the experience, not to mention how the groups were chosen.

If anything the game isn’t as high in retention rate for quite a few factors (not in any particular order):

• It’s built as a casual game, any hard-core concepts are minimal (sPVP, WvW not seeing much love doesn’t help matters, as those are often longer-term offerings for players)
• Extremely complex “dynamic” event system seems to cause rather slow development time, coupled with a rather large release in China. We just aren’t seeing enough to keep people interested.
• The social aspect from release has been drastically impacted with the intro of mega-servers, as has the play experience focused around large events, which are now constantly over-whelmed. While more population on a map is good, too much is bad, especially coupled with the next point.
• Engine optimization. This game is pretty inefficient when it comes to rendering massive battles, especially with it’s rather large particle effects. Mid-range machines have to be able to handle the majority of large battles. They don’t, which causes a good deal of frustration. This comes with the price of pretty graphics and higher poly-counts. While i think they’ve done well enough overall, it still needs some pretty large improvements.
• Too much “innovation”. Many players feel like test subjects when it comes to things like LS, events, down-state, down-scaling, combat, the weapon system, etc. While innovation is a good thing, too much can confuse and often frustrate players.

While true end-game content like raids and the gear-treadmill aren’t what people are clamoring for, just knowing something like FoW and UW are something down the road for them makes it seem more expansive, a goal to be tackled someday if they wish. Saying things like “the whole game is end-game” sounds great in theory, in practice, it falls short, at least as of right now.

I personally believe that ANet needs to get back to basics, unfortunately, i think it might be too late. They need to KISS (keep it simple stupid) and bring in things that have been proven to be stronger retention based objectives. They need to stop trying to “fix” LS since at this point, it’s been extremely difficult to tell a good story with the limits the game has and the time it takes to develop it. While i can’t honestly put out some grand scope of what they should or could be doing, it’s definitely not what they have been doing.

I’m gonna say this again, and I’ve said it plenty of times. Don’t consider this a Feature Pack, but more of a Sync Pack.

What they’re doing is just SYncing NA/EU Clients with Chinese ones. Why did their PR force them to name it “The Feature Pack” I have no idea but as everyone can see the name is very counter-productive.

Look forward to the Feature Pack in 2015 when they’re finally done releasing GW2 around the Globe, unless a 3rd GW2 gets released in Antartika then get prepared for another Syncing Feature Pack

Spira.4578:

I never said they should focus on a specific aspect of the game. I only said that they should be focusing on any kind of end game content/features because most of their playerbase is already level 80 and those that still aren’t will be soon thanks to the easy leveling.

“Endgame” is a specific aspect of the game. It doesn’t exist in GW2 in the traditional sense of an MMO endgame because the point is not to get to max level and start playing the game. The entire game is equally important because there are multiple zones for each level range and you will never outlevel the zones.

This is the whole point of bringing up the fact that Anet has a lot more data about their players than you do. And by “a lot” I mean comparing a pebble to a mountain. Most of the players are casuals who drop in and out of the game, play a few hours a week or a month, and don’t necessarily value the same things you do – like endgame.

I have no further comments to make, you’re just another armchair quarterback who thinks he knows more about the game than the people who have been working on it for last eight or ten years.

tolunart.2095:

“Endgame” is a specific aspect of the game. It doesn’t exist in GW2 in the traditional sense of an MMO endgame because the point is not to get to max level and start playing the game. The entire game is equally important because there are multiple zones for each level range and you will never outlevel the zones.

This is the whole point of bringing up the fact that Anet has a lot more data about their players than you do. And by “a lot” I mean comparing a pebble to a mountain. Most of the players are casuals who drop in and out of the game, play a few hours a week or a month, and don’t necessarily value the same things you do – like endgame.

I have no further comments to make, you’re just another armchair quarterback who thinks he knows more about the game than the people who have been working on it for last eight or ten years.

I’m aware that GW2 doesn’t have the standard endgame. That’s why I explained a few posts ago that with end game I mean anything players do repeatably after reaching level 80. Don’t you think that after 2 years since release they should be focus mainly on end game content? You really think that they should still be focusing on early game which is only a short process anyway (because players level fast and their endgame starts after their reach level 80)

Spira.4578:

tolunart.2095:

“Endgame” is a specific aspect of the game. It doesn’t exist in GW2 in the traditional sense of an MMO endgame because the point is not to get to max level and start playing the game. The entire game is equally important because there are multiple zones for each level range and you will never outlevel the zones.

This is the whole point of bringing up the fact that Anet has a lot more data about their players than you do. And by “a lot” I mean comparing a pebble to a mountain. Most of the players are casuals who drop in and out of the game, play a few hours a week or a month, and don’t necessarily value the same things you do – like endgame.

I have no further comments to make, you’re just another armchair quarterback who thinks he knows more about the game than the people who have been working on it for last eight or ten years.

I’m aware that GW2 doesn’t have the standard endgame. That’s why I explained a few posts ago that with end game I mean anything players do repeatably after reaching level 80.

So… they should concentrate on everything in the game except the tutorial instance…

tolunart.2095:

Spira.4578:

tolunart.2095:

I have no further comments to make, you’re just another armchair quarterback who thinks he knows more about the game than the people who have been working on it for last eight or ten years.

I’m aware that GW2 doesn’t have the standard endgame. That’s why I explained a few posts ago that with end game I mean anything players do repeatably after reaching level 80.

So… they should concentrate on everything in the game except the tutorial instance…

Remember one of the last things that happened in City of Heroes not long before the lights went out? The devs revamped the tutorial…

/e queue sound of thunder

Spira.4578:

tolunart.2095:

“Endgame” is a specific aspect of the game. It doesn’t exist in GW2 in the traditional sense of an MMO endgame because the point is not to get to max level and start playing the game. The entire game is equally important because there are multiple zones for each level range and you will never outlevel the zones.

This is the whole point of bringing up the fact that Anet has a lot more data about their players than you do. And by “a lot” I mean comparing a pebble to a mountain. Most of the players are casuals who drop in and out of the game, play a few hours a week or a month, and don’t necessarily value the same things you do – like endgame.

I have no further comments to make, you’re just another armchair quarterback who thinks he knows more about the game than the people who have been working on it for last eight or ten years.

I’m aware that GW2 doesn’t have the standard endgame. That’s why I explained a few posts ago that with end game I mean anything players do repeatably after reaching level 80. Don’t you think that after 2 years since release they should be focus mainly on end game content? You really think that they should still be focusing on early game which is only a short process anyway (because players level fast and their endgame starts after their reach level 80)

With the amount of content there is, I could wait another year before wondering/asking about any lv80-related developer focus. That statement doesn’t make any sense, though, since they’ve still been adding content.

tolunart.2095:

Spira.4578:

tolunart.2095:

“Endgame” is a specific aspect of the game. It doesn’t exist in GW2 in the traditional sense of an MMO endgame because the point is not to get to max level and start playing the game. The entire game is equally important because there are multiple zones for each level range and you will never outlevel the zones.

This is the whole point of bringing up the fact that Anet has a lot more data about their players than you do. And by “a lot” I mean comparing a pebble to a mountain. Most of the players are casuals who drop in and out of the game, play a few hours a week or a month, and don’t necessarily value the same things you do – like endgame.

I have no further comments to make, you’re just another armchair quarterback who thinks he knows more about the game than the people who have been working on it for last eight or ten years.

I’m aware that GW2 doesn’t have the standard endgame. That’s why I explained a few posts ago that with end game I mean anything players do repeatably after reaching level 80.

So… they should concentrate on everything in the game except the tutorial instance…

I didn’t know that once you get out of the tutorial instance you’re already level 80 dot dot dot

Vayne.8563:

I’ve been saying this all along. Anet has so much data coming in. You can argue perhaps that they’re misinterpreting the data, but they know so much more about traffic patterns in this game than we do.

So they make decisions on what they know.

Suppose, hypothetically, that 20% of the player base comes to the forums (which is I think a high estimate) and of that 20% only 20% actually post, which I also think it a high estimate. That means only 5% of the player base are posting here on the forums. For sure the most engaged, active part of the community.

However, I played Guild Wars 1 for an obscene number of hours, had my own guild, played that game to death and almost never posted on any forums. The one time I posted was when I’d been hacked. Other than that, no forums saw me.

I’m sure a lot of people wished that had continued. lol

Well yeah, sometimes they really know and sometimes they don’t know much of anything. Data has its limits and so does time to test certain things and gather data on it. So that’s why when I give feedback, I treat it all the same, until I’m told otherwise; as if they don’t know a lot and my feedback might help them make a more informed decision.

Things like the commander tag debacle show that sometimes they really haven’t done a lot of research and then things like the downed state change show us just how much research they can put in.

That said, I almost never think that they are directly going to implement/change things based on my words alone. I see my feedback as another data point that I am giving them and they can compare it against the rest of the ones they have sitting in front of them.

Boneheart.3561:

With the amount of content there is, I could wait another year before wondering/asking about any lv80-related developer focus. That statement doesn’t make any sense, though, since they’ve still been adding content.

Well after almost 2 years of playing this game, I’m done with all aspects of the game same as many others, so there’s that.
They’ve been adding content on occasions and yes, on occasions it was mind blowing, like the wardrobe system for example. But that doesn’t mean that they shouldn’t keep focusing on high level content. 2 years after release any mmo should be already focusing mainly on “end game” content, and only use their remaining resources for things like leveling systems- especially in a game where you’re done with leveling in a seriously short amount of time.

Spira.4578:

Boneheart.3561:

With the amount of content there is, I could wait another year before wondering/asking about any lv80-related developer focus. That statement doesn’t make any sense, though, since they’ve still been adding content.

Well after almost 2 years of playing this game, I’m done with all aspects of the game same as many others, so there’s that.
They’ve been adding content on occasions and yes, on occasions it was mind blowing, like the wardrobe system for example. But that doesn’t mean that they shouldn’t keep focusing on high level content. 2 years after release any mmo should be already focusing mainly on “end game” content, and only use their remaining resources for things like leveling systems- especially in a game where you’re done with leveling in a seriously short amount of time.

Wardrobe isn’t content.

You seem to be purposely ignoring pieces of arguments for the sake of combativity. I think you’re jumping back and forth between “high-level” and “end-game” content. Which do you want, that might clear up some confusion?
As someone has already pointed out, there is no end-game but everything is end-game, since it’s ludicrous to design everything before max level as “unimportant” at max level. I don’t know what to say about high-level content, there seems to be plenty of it and more to come, at least to me.

Spira.4578:

I’m aware that GW2 doesn’t have the standard endgame. That’s why I explained a few posts ago that with end game I mean anything players do repeatably after reaching level 80.

“I mean anything players do repeatably after reaching level 80.”

This covers the entire game beyond the tutorial. Living Story, farming, Dynamic events, map completion, hanging out and chatting with guildies, whatever. I guess the Personal Story doesn’t count because you cannot repeat chapters.

Everything else is open to max-level toons. In fact with a scroll and some crafting XP you can literally reach level 80 by completing the tutorial and traveling to a nearby city, then play the game.

Spira.4578:

This, is NOT a rant about the feature pack itself, so please, try to avoid being negative.

In the past few weeks I came across many players on various social media, that are just too afraid or skeptical to say something,
so I decided to speak in their and my name.

The reason why I’m writing this is because I LOVE Guild Wars 2.
it’s an awesome game with many unique and interesting systems that you can’t find in other mmorpgs.
That’s exactly why I don’t understand why you are focusing on things that are not essentialy important for the game’s future and the community.

Don’t get me wrong, the leveling experience IS important, however most of the upcoming features from this feature pack should have already been introduced to the game at least a year ago,
when many players were still leveling up their characters.
Today, implementing this kind of updates bothers most veteran players, especially after you told us that you’re not working
on any dungeons (or dungeon mechanics) as well as that you can’t focus on content like SAB.
It might not be so, but you’re showing us that you don’t really care much about the veteran players – or endgame in general.
Appearantly you’re focusing on new players and offer them an even better experience as they are already getting. Honestly, the leveling experience is already GREAT in gw2. It’s not hard to grasp its mechanics at all. It’s simple and logical already,
not to mention the kind community who never fails to help a beginner in need.
Leveling up is the only thing that gw2 doesn’t need to change to make the game better.
Your community never asked for simplified leveling experience as we’re aware that it’s awesome as it is. We asked for WvWs ACTUAL improvements,
We asked for new sPvP maps, we asked for Guild features and guild halls, and skill fixes, and for crying out loud, I’m not a big fan of it, but players asked for Cantha.
We are aware that we won’t get those things served on a plate as soon as we express it,
but you guys have a good picture of things that would make us play more often.
What’s even worse is that whenever we ask you about this things, you reply with “It’s on the table” and keep updating/creating things that players never mentioned.

And I know what you’ll say. there’s the living story which is supposed to be endgame.
As much as it’s unique, well received (especially season 2) and interactive, it is, sadly, limited as well and it can’t compensate for everything that other free MMOs usually deliver to their players with their updates.
If you want your players to stay in this game, you have to start working on things that we will be messing with after reaching level 80. At this point most of us would also be happy if you would announce an expansion or something else that would be considered an actually big update. If you are working on something big, please AT LEAST LET US KNOW, cause at this rate, many will leave and find other MMOs to play.
Source: http://strawpoll.me/2442232/r

TL;DR: Please ANET, listen to us.

Amen.

John Smith.4610:

Just this month 7,496,080 Oozes have been dealt with.

This is just a random little bit of GW2 trivia, but it can actually tell us something. Devs rarely give out specific numbers and JS is an exception, he’s done so in the past when discusing economic activity, crafting and ecto salvaging, etc.

This was posted a week or so ago, three weeks into the month. That means that on average, 2.5 million oozes were killed per week during the month of August 2014. I don’t have every zone memorized, but I don’t know of any “ooze farming” sites that would attract people to kill thousands of oozes per player per day. So it’s likely that a lot of people are killing a few dozen each instead.

They aren’t a common creature in the open world. I know of a few spots in the Human and Asura level 1-15 areas where you can find groups of them, though. So it looks like, two years after launch, the low level areas are still very well populated. Thousands of players pass through these zones every day, and end up killing their share of oozes, which add up to millions each week.

With five character slots to start with, a lot of players probably have multiple toons. But some of those players are brand new to the game, or they played a little bit off and on and wandered away, then came back to check out the changes that have happened over time. It looks like the devs researched things that were giving new/returning players trouble and found that systems like the old traits and downed-fighting were somewhat counter-intuitive and are working to fix that. Likewise, some players have problems with the Personal Story because they try to play through the whole thing at once and don’t understand that it’s meant to be picked up gradually as you play the game. So they are working on that too.

A better leveling experience benefits everyone, especially for the players who have trouble with the early levels and get frustrated and wander away from the game. More players means a better MMO and more gem sales which also means a better MMO.

You’re just complaining because your needs are not placed before the needs of the player base as a whole. I think Anet has learned from their past mistakes in this area and consider the game and its players overall instead of listening to the loudest voices. This is a good thing.

tolunart.2095:

Likewise, some players have problems with the Personal Story because they try to play through the whole thing at once and don’t understand that it’s meant to be picked up gradually as you play the game. So they are working on that too.

Yea, because the warning that pops up every time that you enter a higher level PS instance really isn’t enough.
Half of the things that they added weren’t needed. It seems to me you’re all missing the point of my first message tho’. It has nothing to do with new players getting something too. It’s about anet stagnating when it comes to end game content, which is nothing new and was mentioned on MANY occasions by way to many players now and which was the reason for a huge portion of the playerbase to leave.

tolunart.2095:

A better leveling experience benefits everyone, especially for the players who have trouble with the early levels and get frustrated and wander away from the game. More players means a better MMO and more gem sales which also means a better MMO.

No, a better leveling experience only affects new players. By implementing a better leveling experience, you will target only the players that are both new and having problems with leveling. Even if 50% of all new players are having problems with that, that’s still 50% of only NEW players which is definitely not many.
By adding in more endgame features, they would please both new and old players. This would benefit ALL of us. And that’s what would make a better MMO.

tolunart.2095:

You’re just complaining because your needs are not placed before the needs of the player base as a whole. I think Anet has learned from their past mistakes in this area and consider the game and its players overall instead of listening to the loudest voices. This is a good thing.

Umm, nope. not really. My needs would be dungeons, housing, way more fractals and things like that. I didn’t mention that anywhere. What I mentioned is END GAME CONTENT in general. Which is the main thing that a mmo after 2 years of uptime should focus on.

And we’re back to the beginning: “I’m right and the devs don’t know anything about their own game!”

Sure.

Seeing as how there is no endgame, never was and the game was not designed to be played that way, there is no way to “focus on the endgame.” They are focused on the GAME, which means spending some time creating new things for level 80s to do (ascended gear) and things for everyone to do (Living Story), and even things for new players to do (traits).

This is not the game you are looking for.

tolunart.2095:

And we’re back to the beginning: “I’m right and the devs don’t know anything about their own game!”

Sure.

Seeing as how there is no endgame, never was and the game was not designed to be played that way, there is no way to “focus on the endgame.” They are focused on the GAME, which means spending some time creating new things for level 80s to do (ascended gear) and things for everyone to do (Living Story).

This is not the game you are looking for.

That explains why my post was ignored.

Boneheart.3561:

That explains why my post was ignored.

Yep, it boils down to another “why isn’t this game WoW?” complaint. Rush through the opening zones, get your toon to max level and join a raiding group. “Farm” until you get the best gear, then wait for the expansion when they raise the level cap and make your gear obsolete. Rush through the new zones… etc.

The complaints about GW2 usually come from expectations like this, and when they get to max level there is no “endgame” waiting for them, just all the stuff they rushed through to get there and never enjoyed.

tolunart.2095:

The complaints about GW2 usually come from expectations like this, and when they get to max level there is no “endgame” waiting for them, just all the stuff they rushed through to get there and never enjoyed.

To be fair, if you bought the game at release and took everything at a leisurely pace, it’s still quite possible to have exhausted all of the content that interests you. The game is a bit lacking in variety of repeatable content, though, that is coming from someone without a regular group to play with (consequently, there is still a good bit of content I haven’t touched yet). But I don’t think that’s something they will fail to address in upcoming releases.

Anyway, it doesn’t look like OP came here to have a two-way discussion, so I’d recommend discontinuing.

Perhaps, this thread will be moot after next week. Devs did say next week brings things for Vets! Who knows?

It’s good that there are things that are of interest to all the players. I’m not sure anyone, save ArenaNet, knows how many of each kind of player there are.

Yeah, the first LS was a little light on story but it did represent a regular infusion of activities and included new dungeons, jumping puzzles, dynamic events, crafting recipes, rewards, achievements etc. and an incentive to keep logging in every month. Because most of the stuff “rotated out” quickly players with short attention spans forgot about it pretty fast.

They’re addressing this with the new LS, and players without a lot of time or who want to replay chapters with different toons can do so at their leisure.

OP is just looking for attention, you can tell when someone just wants to make a lot of noise and isn’t interested in a discussion. It doesn’t matter, he doesn’t have anything to say anyway.

tolunart.2095:

And we’re back to the beginning: “I’m right and the devs don’t know anything about their own game!”

Sure.

Seeing as how there is no endgame, never was and the game was not designed to be played that way, there is no way to “focus on the endgame.” They are focused on the GAME, which means spending some time creating new things for level 80s to do (ascended gear) and things for everyone to do (Living Story), and even things for new players to do (traits).

This is not the game you are looking for.

Once again – ENDGAME AS THINGS THAT YOU DO REPEATEDLY AFTER YOU REACH LEVEL 80. Should I say LATE GAME? Would that make more sense to you then?
Jesus christ are you seriously going for semantics here?
What I keep saying since start is that gw2 lacks updates which would give players more things to do. IT DOESN’T HAVE TO BE SUPER HARD DUNGEONS AND RAIDS.

tolunart.2095:

you can tell when someone just wants to make a lot of noise and isn’t interested in a discussion.

I presented a fair amount of issues that are currently present in game. If you can’t see them and if you just deny them, that doesn’t mean they don’t exist.
The only thing you said was gw2 was not meant to have an endgame, where I clearly said many many many times that with endgame I’m not specifically talking about dungeons and raids and other hard things to do ingame, but things that both veteran (or should I say older players, in case you might not understand that too) and very soon new players as well (since it’s really easy to level) may use/do. Things that will let players spend more time in game. Cause things like leveling experience won’t change the fact, that once the new players will reach max level, they will encounter the same problem as players did in the past and the same percentage of players will leave as they did before. If you seriously can’t see this, then I’m sorry, but you’re the one that is not listening and don’t really want to have a discussion. You’re just here because your Holier-than-thou complex.
If you don’t agree, that’s okay. If you think I’m here for attention, then just stop replying. You will make both yourself and me a favor.

Boneheart.3561:

That explains why my post was ignored.

My bad. I refresh the thread and see replies and tend to reply to everyone, but I might have missed a few.

I wasn’t talking about content and features in particular. I used the word content because it also means “That which may be perceived in something.”.
I was never jumping between high-level and end-game – I was talking about one thing only – endgame, but should have probably used the word late-game, since some might only know the WoW meaning of “endgame” – which is basically hard dungeons.
As I already said in many other posts before, what I meant with endgame was things that players usually do after reaching a certain point where things that you do start to repeat. In gw2 endgame pretty much starts when you reach level 80, since before reaching that level, you are still going trough a process in which you’re gaining levels.
After you reach level 80, you start doing things on repeat every day.
What I said is that we need more of this kind of things to make the game fun for more players. It doesn’t have to be dungeons directly. It doesn’t have to be content, it can easily be a feature like the wardrobe system, which gave players another thing to do – collect skins and mess with their characters appearance.

i agree with this.

there is nothing past level 80 that cant be done at low levels.

ther NEEDS to be level 80 only things.

i used to think about all the things i could do before logging on whilst i was leveling. because of the fact that leveling was something we could do.

now i have all characters at level 80, its boring. there is nothing centered around level 80 only and thus makes being level 80 boring.

look at my title. " BEEN THERE DONE THAT"
this sums up being level 80 nicely. it may as well say “im bored of the content”

The game was envisioned as a journey, not a destination. Sub-based games make their money by stalling tactics, they “lock” you into a lather, rinse, repeat cycle with small, incremental upgrades that are eventually replaced by the next cycle of small, incremental upgrades. The leveling process is largely a stalling tactic that wastes most of your free month so they are likely to get at least the box price + 1 month’s sub from you.

If they can get you hooked on the Skinner Box button pushing until a random reward triggers the endorphin rush then it’s a bonus. Even after dropping the sub most MMOs follow this model because they are copying other MMOs.

GW2 tried to break from the pack and do something different, but traditional MMO players treated it like a traditional MMO, rushed through 80 levels of content and went looking for the endgame. There isn’t one, the endgame is the game you ignored on the way to the end.

If you have exhausted all the content that was there at the beginning, plus later additions like fractals and ascended gear, have a few Legendaries already, and ran out of things to do, move on. The game doesn’t have a sub so you weren’t required to spend any more than the box price on the game. Even if you ignore the Living Story you paid the same price as a new single player game and got 10x as much out of it.

Or you can level an alt, play PvP or WvW modes, set your own goals, or just explore the game and look for things you missed the first time.

I wonder how many people have unlocked all 2000+ skins? Seems like something to do. /shrug

If that would be the fact, leveling up would be slower. Not so fast that you can actually reach level 80 in a day. New players might waste 2 weeks to level up their first character and that’s about it. In other games you would need days if not weeks to gain 1 level. If gw2 would be about the journey and not the destination, then leveling up would be way slower.
Oh, and yes, I set myself new goals like speedruns of jumping puzzles, soloing dungeons, trying to get to places that in generally can’t. I even started to RP for crying out loud.

It’s okay, I don’t expect you to understand.

tolunart.2095:

It’s okay, I don’t expect you to understand.

Yea, same here.

And once again we have people adamantly against adding anything they don’t personally intend to play. To hell with everyone else’s fun, right? Such a great attitude to take when trying to grow (or even maintain) a community.

A game HAS to focus on improving its low-end stuff to keep new players on influx. The sure death of any game is when new people do not replace the people that are leaving at a decent enough rate to sustain the game.