Guild Wars 2

I am sure everyone is already familiar with CoF P1 by now.

This is a hypothetical situation, but here’s the predicament:

We posted “LFG CoF P1 80s EXP Only” on LFG Tool.
We did the dungeon fine until the gate part.
One person in team does not know he/she has to stand in one of the four bubbles.
That person keeps killing the infinitely spawning mobs in the room.
We tried party chat to tell that person to stand in the bubble.
We tried whispering to that person to stand in the bubble.
That person refused and is threatening to report us if he/she gets kicked.
We cannot proceed to final boss because that person is not cooperating.
We either have to leave and start over, or kick him/her.
We chose to kick that person and get reported.
Since we still cannot proceed unless we get someone else, we invited a guildie.
The guildie said she was only in for the tokens, and said she wanted to share 30s with each of us out of the 1g26s she received at the end as thanks.

So in the situation here, we kicked someone and invited a guildie in his/her place at the end of the dungeon, and received money from that guildie. But we had to kick, it’s obvious.

It might seem like we did this on purpose by abuse-kicking that person, but it clearly is not. When we are 1-member short, the first place to ask is guild chat. We did not sell the run either, she decided to share her reward. We would feel bad to refuse a gift from her and return the mail.

Which part of this could get us banned? Does Arenanet check chatlogs when someone reports people for being kicked in dungeons? Is this considered abusive behaviour?

I believe the dungeon is badly designed on that part…

Smells fishy to me, this “hypothetical” situation.

And yes, if you abuse the kick system you might get a warning in one form or the other.

Kaiyanwan.8521:

Smells fishy to me, this “hypothetical” situation.

And yes, if you abuse the kick system you might get a warning in one form or the other.

Real scenario or not it would be absurd if something should be done against you for kicking someone that blatantly refuses to do something correctly or “griefs” the group.

I’d say I probably would have reported THAT person and then kicked them..

Yes, according to the report function I think it says they check chat logs. And they were obviously abusing the report tool if they did report when they were obviously trolling so I’m sure they should be the one worried and not you.

I kinda have to agree with Kaiyanwan here. This “hypothetical” situation seems awfully detailed… But maybe you’re telling the truth, and maybe you’re not. It’s not up to me to decide. Ultimately, I trust Support to review the chat and combat logs (they DO have records of what transpired in the instance) and act accordingly.

Unless you’re leaving out a part that goes something like “we all called the person a bunch of bad names, flamed them, etc.” then I don’t see what there is to worry about.

The point of the kick system is for removing people from party that are impeding progress/trolling/griefing etc. etc.

Zaxares.5419:

I kinda have to agree with Kaiyanwan here. This “hypothetical” situation seems awfully detailed… But maybe you’re telling the truth, and maybe you’re not. It’s not up to me to decide. Ultimately, I trust Support to review the chat and combat logs (they DO have records of what transpired in the instance) and act accordingly.

The situation is hypothetical because it has not yet happened. It is detailed and lists every action so that we can understand clearly what is bannable given that we legitimately kick that person for ruining the dungeon run and report us, we also invited a guildy because it was the first person who volunteered when we asked, and we received gold as a gift which is clearly not a sale/payment.

1. Is kicking a troll a bannable offense?
2. Is inviting a guildy to complete the dungeon after kicking someone else who was in the party for over half of the dungeon a bannable offense?
3. Is receiving gold from someone who voluntarily shares their reward with us, given that we helped that person receive said reward a bannable offense?

Again, we would like to know if any part of this series of event could get us banned.

Turtle Dragon.9241:

1. Is kicking a troll a bannable offense?
2. Is inviting a guildy to complete the dungeon after kicking someone else who was in the party for over half of the dungeon a bannable offense?
3. Is receiving gold from someone who voluntarily shares their reward with us, given that we helped that person receive said reward a bannable offense?

1. NO, if someone is grieving / trolling or stopping you from completing the dungeon you can kick him.
2. Why should it, you need someone else to finish, who that is does not matter in any way.
3. No idea about this, but honestly I have to agree that with this point the whole scenario sounds fishy…

They will check your chat log, and your combat progress.

Kicking people from fractals for the final encounter and inviting gildies for example was getting a popular way for lazy rewards.

This is offensive towards the kicked player. Situations like this might result in a ban.
It is up to you to take the risk of kicking someone. Better got a reasonable reason.

Its not bannable to get paid gold for it at all. Click the Arah dungeon lfg. How many people do you see selling the dungeon. This has been brought up multiple times and Anet has decided to not take action against someone selling a dungeon for gold.

1) No, kittens/trolls/kids who can’t read good get kicked all the time in GW2.
2) Depends on the circumstances(mainly on why was the other guy kicked).
3) No.

no you shouldn’t be banned for kicking, you, as a party leader, have been confered the authority to waste people’s time if you see fit, because any other alternative is too bad to even think of.

On the safe side you really should not accept the money from the second guy. Why would you anyway? You wouldn’t be able to finish without him after all. But beyond that, (assuming you really had a reason to kick someone, beyond a guildie wanting to join) you should be okay.

So, basically:
- kicking a person from the run because they cannot play/are rude/etc is okay.
- taking gold for a run is okay.
- inviting guildies for a run is (obviously) okay

On the other hand:
- kicking a person so a guildie can join is not good. Especially if it happens very close to the end.
- kicking a person with no real reason and then selling the spot is not good.
- selling the spot and then kicking that person is definitely not good, and you should expect some repercussions.

That just looks like a glorified “kick someone to sell a spot”.

It would have been fine if this timewaster was kicked and then just refilled, even for a guildie, but you profitted by kicking that person – therefore an offense.

But of course, the player you kicked would have only been able to report for being kicked, which is perfectly valid. Unless someone else in your group reported you after the path had been sold to a guildie, then you have nothing to worry about.

Cush.4063:

Its not bannable to get paid gold for it at all. Click the Arah dungeon lfg. How many people do you see selling the dungeon. This has been brought up multiple times and Anet has decided to not take action against someone selling a dungeon for gold.

See my signature. He was a legitimate seller not using exploits.

How do “legitimate seller” and “kick” overlap?

I can see a person willingly and knowingly leave a party to create a slot to be sold, but that doesn’t require kicking.

if its done for unjustifiable or malignent reasons then yes you can

From the gw2 rules of conduct:
’While playing Guild Wars 2, you must respect the rights of others and their rights to play and enjoy the Game. To this end, you may not defraud, harass, threaten, embarrass or cause distress and/or unwanted attention to other players. ’

So, if you find it not enjoyable to be in a party with someone who doesn’t know how to do a dungeon, you have the full right to ask that person to respect that and more important to kick him from the party.

The issue here is that people also kick to make room for a friend, so that friend get the reward instead of someone who they don’t know. Often motives like ‘you where holding the party down’ are used to hide the real intentions. It is clear that in that situation the real intention is to cause distress and so the kicker is the guilty party.

But. There are rules and there consequences. Support has proven many times that they will not engage in judging in a conflict in a group of players unless the breaking off this rule has been on purpose, willingly and beyond reasonable doubt. This is why so often people get away with things.

Itl;dr – Your fine. You can get banned for kicking, but not in this occasion.

Turtle Dragon.9241:

2. Is inviting a guildy to complete the dungeon after kicking someone else who was in the party for over half of the dungeon a bannable offense?

If you kicked somebody just for the reason that another person could join, i hope it is.

Normally I would say yes but in this case it’s quite normal that you went in guild chat to finish the dungeon. That is very normal.
Should not get you banned in any way.

They need to change the beta LFG system! It’s the system bad, not the situation.

Turtle Dragon.9241:

We posted “LFG CoF P1 80s EXP Only” on LFG Tool.

If I’m a noob, here’s what I read: “looking for group Citadel of Flame path 1 80s (oh yeah, the level) Exploration only (no story)”.

Be more explicit when you ask for “experienced”.

This seems like an elaborate story to cover up dungeon selling

Which is not bad at all, but still.

They will check your chat logs if you are telling the truth.

It comes down to the chat logs:

If you kick someone with no discussion near the end of an encounter for no perceivable reason then invite a guildy to complete the encounter, you will be banned if the person reports you.

If you attempt any negotiation at all then you are safe.

I’m not sure whether you could get yourself in trouble for this, but I’d HIGHLY recommend not accepting the 30 silver from your guild-mate. That’s the most suspicious part. It could probably be cleared up after further investigation, but at the surface, it’s really fishy.

And it’s just 30 silver. That’s nothing. Return to Sender.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

It comes down to the chat logs:

If you kick someone with no discussion near the end of an encounter for no perceivable reason then invite a guildy to complete the encounter, you will be banned if the person reports you.

If you attempt any negotiation at all then you are safe.

Say what now?

So the following things are bannable (either temporary or permanent depending on severity).
- kick abuse (i.e. kicking for no reason) – as you have described it above you are getting rid of someone who does not understand the mechanic or is trolling so you are using kicking appropriately
- selling dungeon spot when exploiting the game – you are allowed to sell dungeon runs in this game, however if you do it after exploiting either the game or someone else you will be permanently banned from the game. In the above situation since you had a valid kick reason to kick the person you were not exploiting them so you should be fine. However, I would return the money to the person because you might still get reported/investigated and this would look suspicious and might result in a temp ban while Anet determines whether you guys were at fault.

Kaiyanwan.8521:

Smells fishy to me, this “hypothetical” situation.

And yes, if you abuse the kick system you might get a warning in one form or the other.

As Kaiyanwan.8521 said, your hypothetical situation sounds fishy.

Kaiyanwan.8521:

Smells fishy to me, this “hypothetical” situation.

And yes, if you abuse the kick system you might get a warning in one form or the other.

+1

I’m guessing you called the player a bunch of names before it all just went like that.

On the other note, if that is correct what you wrote, the kick command is valid for players who do not cooperate.

It is an offense if you kick a player right before the dungeon boss is killed, if you throw bad words or harras the player, if you put ‘No rangers/necros/whatever’ in the LFG tool, or kick them out just because of that, and it technicly is a valiation if you kick a player based on their AP (However, a lot of players seam to ignore this one, sadly).

Turtle Dragon.9241:

I am sure everyone is already familiar with CoF P1 by now.

This is a hypothetical situation, but here’s the predicament:

We posted “LFG CoF P1 80s EXP Only” on LFG Tool.
We did the dungeon fine until the gate part.
One person in team does not know he/she has to stand in one of the four bubbles.
That person keeps killing the infinitely spawning mobs in the room.
We tried party chat to tell that person to stand in the bubble.
We tried whispering to that person to stand in the bubble.
That person refused and is threatening to report us if he/she gets kicked.
We cannot proceed to final boss because that person is not cooperating.
We either have to leave and start over, or kick him/her.
We chose to kick that person and get reported.
Since we still cannot proceed unless we get someone else, we invited a guildie.
The guildie said she was only in for the tokens, and said she wanted to share 30s with each of us out of the 1g26s she received at the end as thanks.

So in the situation here, we kicked someone and invited a guildie in his/her place at the end of the dungeon, and received money from that guildie. But we had to kick, it’s obvious.

It might seem like we did this on purpose by abuse-kicking that person, but it clearly is not. When we are 1-member short, the first place to ask is guild chat. We did not sell the run either, she decided to share her reward. We would feel bad to refuse a gift from her and return the mail.

Which part of this could get us banned? Does Arenanet check chatlogs when someone reports people for being kicked in dungeons? Is this considered abusive behaviour?

I believe the dungeon is badly designed on that part…

Sounds like that player you kicked commited the act of GREIFING. You were nice enough to give the person a warning 2 times before you kicked him/her, so I wouldn’t worry about it.

Wiki definition: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griefer

I don’t see a fault here, the person wouldn’t listen so got the boot after several attempts of trying to make them listen

Gray area, but more or less if the person absolutely refuses to listen to what the group is saying would help progress the dungeon, then it is likely no fault of the group to kick said person to bring in someone else who will listen.

Whether it be a guildie or another stranger has no bearing.

If the situation is really as you claim it is, then you have nothing to worry about. The guy you would have kicked was acting like an idiot and holding back the entire party. You gave plenty of warnings.

Turtle Dragon.9241:

I am sure everyone is already familiar with CoF P1 by now.

This is a hypothetical situation, but here’s the predicament:

We posted “LFG CoF P1 80s EXP Only” on LFG Tool.
We did the dungeon fine until the gate part.
One person in team does not know he/she has to stand in one of the four bubbles.
That person keeps killing the infinitely spawning mobs in the room.
We tried party chat to tell that person to stand in the bubble.
We tried whispering to that person to stand in the bubble.
That person refused and is threatening to report us if he/she gets kicked.
We cannot proceed to final boss because that person is not cooperating.
We either have to leave and start over, or kick him/her.
We chose to kick that person and get reported.
Since we still cannot proceed unless we get someone else, we invited a guildie.
The guildie said she was only in for the tokens, and said she wanted to share 30s with each of us out of the 1g26s she received at the end as thanks.

So in the situation here, we kicked someone and invited a guildie in his/her place at the end of the dungeon, and received money from that guildie. But we had to kick, it’s obvious.

It might seem like we did this on purpose by abuse-kicking that person, but it clearly is not. When we are 1-member short, the first place to ask is guild chat. We did not sell the run either, she decided to share her reward. We would feel bad to refuse a gift from her and return the mail.

Which part of this could get us banned? Does Arenanet check chatlogs when someone reports people for being kicked in dungeons? Is this considered abusive behaviour?

I believe the dungeon is badly designed on that part…

The only report I would file in this case would be to report the person who was intentionally not following the process to clear the dungeon and threatening to report you for kicking, that’s why they put the kick mechanic in the game.

Using three assumptions:

1. the person investigating the incident is both reasonable and competent
2. the incident occurred exactly as described
3. the investigator has the tools to allow him/her to see what happened

the conclusions should be:

1. The kicked player failed to respond to repeated requests to take actions to allow the party to proceed.
2. The kicked player threatened to report the rest of the party if kicked. Therefore, the kicked player is competent enough with the English language to understand the requests, and was thus choosing not to do so.
3. The kick was justified. Allowing the kicked player to continue holding the party up would go well beyond a reasonable expectation of cooperative play.
4. Once the investigator concludes that the decision to kick was justified, any actions taken by the group after the kick become irrelevant. Subsequent actions taken by the group would matter only if there were still doubts as to whether the kick was justified.

Edit: A good investigator might in fact conclude that the kicked player deserved a “time out” for griefing, depending on factors not shown, such as that player’s history. This would be based on the following:

• The kicked player engaged in actions sure to frustrate group members and threatened to report them if he was kicked. This means that the kicked player knew his behavior would annoy teammates. This might be sufficient evidence to justify a conclusion of griefing and abuse of the report function.

You’re good to kick someone like that. They are directly impeding progress. You wouldn’t want to kick them after a couple of wipes, but if they are consistently not listening (i.e. being a team player) then they don’t get the benefit of playing with a team.

Everyone has a responsibility to the group. If all members pull their weight, it is absolutely unacceptable to kick them for a friend. If one member isn’t playing well with the team, isn’t listening, is being threatening, or is overall a complete kitten, then you can boot them with impunity for someone that will play well.

If you requested experienced players, and the person says “hey guys, never done this before, how does this fight work”, then you could boot them, because you had advertised as wanting experienced players and they joined under false pretenses. The cool thing to do would be to explain the fights and keep them, because honestly this game isn’t that difficult if you just know what to do during each encounter.