Guild Wars 2

DGraves.3720:

I am still upset that Warrior’s signet actually does heal for more than all the Engineer specific heals combined.

…. the Healing Signet? You mean their passive heal that:
1. Can’t heal groups.
2. Is usually ‘overhealing’ because the warrior is at max health (Can still get downed quickly, though), dramatically reducing its actual healing-per-second.
3. Can’t mitigate damage bursts effectively.

Its my opinion the non-trinity and trinity aspect should be combined.

I like no needed to worry about the spec i do in dungeons. It’s really good for the Que Times also.

that being said i also believe trinity is highly important part of strategy for boss fights in raiding content.

What i advocate for is that we work on the classes a little so that it gets easier with trinity concepts. So No trinity system, with classes having the ability to excel at a role if spec/built correctly over the others.

This means

“tanks will always excel in holding aggression”
“dps will always excel in damage output”
“healing will always excel in healing”
“boon support/cleanse will excel accordingly”

But that also means that any spec-combination there of is still valid, just not as competitive.

to put it in numbers formatt to make it very clear

- Tank should take 700k damage, with a max of 0-3 deaths a rune (between him and a group) (not including standing in stuff
- Running with out should include the possibility of 3-5 deaths.

One of the issues i find with the non-trinity system is the overly high amount of healer spam that comes with it. I find that this really only over validates damage classes, and under validates tanking.

So in essence the trinity became a duality.

DGraves.3720:

There are already classes that have position of best whether it be healing, support, or damage and they tend to blow the others out of the water. Why prolong the inevitable with nonsense? The Warrior has a signet that heals him for more than three skills on the Engineer combined, the Elementalist spins circles around just about everything in just about every way and requires only a medium level of play skill, and Dragon Hunter (note: not guardian) is ridiculously better than the actual ranger who ironically turned out to be a furry loving Druid who heals things and can’t use a bow to save his life.

Please just admit it. You had your fun Anet, righting the stream, but let’s reel it back in and come home.

Most professions can do at least one of the typical trinity jobs with the right build and still be half-way functional in the other two. The whole point of not having fixed profession builds is to ensure each character can be tuned for multiple roles, rather than have one character only being good for one role..

Also, Elite specializations do not come standard with a profession. They take a lot of mastery points to unlock so think of them as end-game-plus builds that allow a player to fill a specific role better than other professions.

Halvorn.9831:

1. Switch to “hard” trinity (bleed the requirement from 1 optional game mode to all others)
2. Watch your game shift from “unique” to “umpteenth copy of the same old”
3. Read player comments on how other games that have been designed with this concept from the start are doing it better
4. See player figures fade
5. Switch off servers, since you have just nuked yourself out of business.

Who said we need “hard” trinity. We already have soft trinity in raids. The only thing GW2 is missing is the ability for tanks to directly control their threat.

GW2 can do trinity for raids without infringing on your ability to run whatever in the rest of the game. But not having proper trinity in raids leads to the devs having their hands tied when it comes to interesting mechanics.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

tl;dr the problem isn’t trinity or even zerker/DPS meta — we are the problem; we evolve much more quickly than the game ever will.

DGraves.3720:

I disagree. If this were the case we would all be Chess Grandmasters.

Your chess analogy is close to what I was suggesting: some of the 500,000 people playing are the equivalent of grand masters. Those people are frustrated with the mechanics that aren’t challenging enough. Meantime, some new players are still trying to figure out how to Castle.

Okay, so we’re switching to a Trinity system now.

Who wants to be the one to tell everyone who rolled Guardian they only have access to the Altruistic Healing build? or Eles only have access to Water? Warriors are also going to lose GS and axe, because they’re tanks, so they’re not allowed to actually do DPS.

Having specific roles that need to be filled, at all, isn’t hard trinity. It’s just encounter design. Hard trinity means here that any given class can only ever fill one role, period.

That certain builds excel in a position more than every other option (let’s use Druid for healer here) is a balance problem, because you can fill it with a different build for some amount of loss of efficiency. But it’s not a guaranteed wipe.

DGraves.3720:

Content Gate. You don’t do Raids? No Legendary Armor.

You don’t do SAB? No Super weapons skin.

You don’t do Fractal?. No Ad Infinitum, or fractal weapons.

You don’t do PvP?. No glorious armor, no Ascension.

You don’t do dungeon, WvW or Open World? No Legendary weapons.

You don’t do HoT maps? No new Legendary weapons.

What are the difference between all of this? If there isn’t then should to do something about everything that is exclusive to one content? Is two content enough? Or is it different because it’s raid? And if so, why?

MithranArkanere.8957:

In Gw2 it means that no player is fixed in a role because they picked a profession over another.

That’s the funniest kitten I’ver ever heard. ROFL

Crinn.7864:

Halvorn.9831:

1. Switch to “hard” trinity (bleed the requirement from 1 optional game mode to all others)
2. Watch your game shift from “unique” to “umpteenth copy of the same old”
3. Read player comments on how other games that have been designed with this concept from the start are doing it better
4. See player figures fade
5. Switch off servers, since you have just nuked yourself out of business.

Who said we need “hard” trinity. We already have soft trinity in raids. The only thing GW2 is missing is the ability for tanks to directly control their threat.

GW2 can do trinity for raids without infringing on your ability to run whatever in the rest of the game. But not having proper trinity in raids leads to the devs having their hands tied when it comes to interesting mechanics.

It’s an anomaly and people who play Tank, Condition and Healer roles pay for it.

I mean, literally pay for it.

Well, not tanks so much, but the optimal sets of Condi and Healer gear sets are really expensive, due to content gating of materials and Anet arbitarily punishing builds, because it can’t think of good rewards for new stuff in a game with no vertical progression.

And you invest a ton of money to make those gear sets and then they sit in your bank, because nothing in PvE really demands those roles and you are hurting yourself if you aren’t running a power build.

WvW does actually, but in the greatest irony of all, you can’t actually make any money to make any of this gear by playing WvW.

I want to make a Viper set for my daredevil, but condition damage just takes so long to kill trash, it ends up sitting in my bank most of the time except for harder fractals.

Artemid.3925:

Okay, so we’re switching to a Trinity system now.

Who wants to be the one to tell everyone who rolled Guardian they only have access to the Altruistic Healing build? or Eles only have access to Water? Warriors are also going to lose GS and axe, because they’re tanks, so they’re not allowed to actually do DPS.

Having specific roles that need to be filled, at all, isn’t hard trinity. It’s just encounter design. Hard trinity means here that any given class can only ever fill one role, period.

That certain builds excel in a position more than every other option (let’s use Druid for healer here) is a balance problem, because you can fill it with a different build for some amount of loss of efficiency. But it’s not a guaranteed wipe.

Just understand that terms like these (the Holy trinity) especially with qualifiers like hard, soft, etc, are terms with fluctuating meanings depending on the context. And no, declaring what the term means to you won’t somehow instantly establish what it means to everyone in all context (for instance, to me, a soft trinity is when there are defined roles but not enforced by content. . . So you don’t need a healer but they exist, you don’t need dedicated dps but it exists. Hard trinity is where those roles are required. . .ffxiv requires each role in its content).

And to me, what you describe as a hard trinity is simply character building. It’s what you craft the character to embody and accomplish. Whether you can change that after you complete character creation is irrelevant.

MadRabbit.3179:

And you invest a ton of money to make those gear sets and then they sit in your bank, because nothing in PvE really demands those

You need to invest much in ascended gear and agony resistance if you want to do fractals and then this gear sits in you bank, because nothing else in PvE need agony resistance. ;-)

Having specific roles that need to be filled, at all, isn’t hard trinity. It’s just encounter design. Hard trinity means here that any given class can only ever fill one role, period.

Nothing more wrong than that.
In games with hard trinity, most classes have more than one roles.
i.e, in WoW the druid can have 4 roles (tank, healer, melee damage dealer, range damage dealer). In fact only 4 classes (mage, warlock, rogue, hunter) have one role and this is specifically said to the players when they create their character. When you play a healer as a paladin, nobody tell you to switch to damage dealer or tank (except maybe in the 1% to guild). You choose your role and everybody is ok with that.

I was a healer shaman and I never had to switch damage dealer … even when the healer shaman was behind the other healers and when the melee damage shaman was better than other melee damage spec/classes. Nobody telled me to switch to an other role, and naturally I had access to raid like exactly all other healers, tanks and DDs of the game, what ever was their classes.

So if GW2 would work like that, if you choose to play a [insert class] healer, and if Anet does a good job in balancing classes, nobody should tell you to switch DD or tank.

Thaddeus.4891:

DGraves.3720:

Content Gate. You don’t do Raids? No Legendary Armor.

You don’t do SAB? No Super weapons skin.

You don’t do Fractal?. No Ad Infinitum, or fractal weapons.

You don’t do PvP?. No glorious armor, no Ascension.

You don’t do dungeon, WvW or Open World? No Legendary weapons.

You don’t do HoT maps? No new Legendary weapons.

What are the difference between all of this? If there isn’t then should to do something about everything that is exclusive to one content? Is two content enough? Or is it different because it’s raid? And if so, why?

What actually constitutes a “Content Gate” is not something having a requirement but something having a requirement which may not be available to any given player. For instance normal Legendaries require you to get dungeon tokens which you can solo for if you’d like or run PvP tracks, but no matter what, or how hard, you can get these items.

Raids are different. If Raids ended up like Dungeons where no one was running them you cannot (won’t even let you in) possibly overcome that gate. It’s over. Legendary Armor being attached to a mode where you possibly could not get in is equivalent to a Content Gate.

For Open World content for instance that would be equivalent to making Triple Trouble required for a Legendary. You cannot possibly do that alone. It is a Content Gate. If for some reason everyone quit doing it, maybe a nerf in rewards or something, then goodbye chances.

Player choice is not what dictates a Content Gate. Developer Choice is. It would be Player choice to abandon all dungeons but Developer choice to still leave them open to single players though there may be ones that cannot be completed alone. I don’t know all of the paths by heart. Regardless there is at least one, ignoring PvP tracks, that allows you to get the tokens.

Amendment: There is one Content Gate for old Legendaries; Rohjan the Penitent only spawns if you defeat Claw of Jormag I believe and that means if everyone did abandon that particular event you could not finish a Legendary because you need the 100 stones.

Glad you brought that to mind. I don’t think there are any others.

Shylock.4653:

MadRabbit.3179:

And you invest a ton of money to make those gear sets and then they sit in your bank, because nothing in PvE really demands those

You need to invest much in ascended gear and agony resistance if you want to do fractals and then this gear sits in you bank, because nothing else in PvE need agony resistance. ;-)

Yeah…..because I invest money all the time to make Ascended power gear….and then I put it in the bank and don’t wear it in WvW or open world….because of no agony resistance.

Totally logical and relevant point.

Crinn.7864:

GW2 can do trinity for raids without infringing on your ability to run whatever in the rest of the game. But not having proper trinity in raids leads to the devs having their hands tied when it comes to interesting mechanics.

When did “Tank&Spank” become an “Interesting Mechanic” ?

Thaddeus.4891:

DGraves.3720:

Content Gate. You don’t do Raids? No Legendary Armor.

You don’t do SAB? No Super weapons skin.

You don’t do Fractal?. No Ad Infinitum, or fractal weapons.

You don’t do PvP?. No glorious armor, no Ascension.

You don’t do dungeon, WvW or Open World? No Legendary weapons.

You don’t do HoT maps? No new Legendary weapons.

What are the difference between all of this? If there isn’t then should to do something about everything that is exclusive to one content? Is two content enough? Or is it different because it’s raid? And if so, why?

I would like to interject something here.

• You don’t do SAB? No Super weapons skin.

You can Solo SAB.

• You don’t do Fractal?. No Ad Infinitum, or fractal weapons.

You can Solo Some Fractals, duo, others, but your threshold of players is very low

• You don’t do PvP?. No glorious armor, no Ascension.

You can Solo your way to this.

• You don’t do dungeon, WvW or Open World? No Legendary weapons.

You can Solo, Open World, and Solo, Duo, Small Group, Dungeons, or Solo your way though PvP Tracks for dungeon Tokens.

• You don’t do HoT maps? No new Legendary weapons.

You can solo your way though HoT maps.

However… you NEED a viable group of people to do a Raid. You simply do not have any other choice then to have the right mix of the right people, to get this content done. You cannot solo, duo, or ‘small group’ your way though this, at all, on any level.

That would be the distinction.

While OP says no trinity is in place I tend to disagree with him… and agree as well…

We have healers, we have had healers for quite some time.

• Druids (3 flavors, Zerk, Zealot and Magi for PvE, Clerics and minstrels for WvW)
• Water Elementalist (needs healing so zealot is mandatory, celestial is less often seen)
• Guardian, mostly forgotten, is still a very decent front line healer, especially with hammer or mace. (clerics/ minstrels) I’d suggest runes of the monk
• Staff revenant Ventari yes, heals…

“We have no tanks, bunkers yes, but no real tanks”.
Difference being you cannot keep yourself alive factanking everything (or can we?)

• Minstrel guardian would be a pretty good tank….with runes of te trooper
• All other classes can be converted to bunker

But these builds are no real trinity. Trinities are often more fixed roles and these are more builds then a dedicated role. As such I prefer this system as it allows my character -to be everything- provided the character is flexible enough by just swapping builds. in 2 cases you could be all at the same time…(celestial ele, celestial engineer, and if you would be mad enough celestail guardian and druid as well)

Yeah, this topic never gets old….

For an example of what is wrong with trinity, go try to join a party in GW1 as a smiter monk or, even better, as a ranger.

DoctorDing.5890:

For an example of what is wrong with trinity, go try to join a party in GW1 as a smiter monk or, even better, as a ranger.

Never played GW1 and I begin to understand why so people are relunctant to the trinity system. In this game it seems that monk was the healer and warrior the tank, right ?
Well … It is a totally stupid system, but I it is absolutly not what a good trinity system is supposed to be. Read my previous post to understand what is a good trinity sytem.

Are you afraid by the trinity system or by the fact that Anet is bad at doing a good trinity system ?
If you say the first answer, I would say you dont understand the trinity system and you shouldnt base your idea of the trinity system on GW1. If you say the 2nd answer, I can understand you.

MadRabbit.3179:

Yeah…..because I invest money all the time to make Ascended power gear….and then I put it in the bank and don’t wear it in WvW or open world….because of no agony resistance.

Totally logical and relevant point.

As logical as yours. ;-)
Why you don’t use your condi gear in WvW?

GW2 is a Trinity MMO or almost? Hardly. Only when the base game of GW2 gets a real healing class added starting at level 1 will I as a player ever consider GW2 a trinity MMO.

I play GW2, but I will never allow myself to become fully captured by it until I can make at level ONE a true healing class like other MMOs have (e.g. Dwayna priest class base game). Druid isn’t enough in my opinion.

To me GW2 doesn’t need to worry about being insulted and called a Trinity MMO. It’s reputation is safe. I doubt Anet will ever add classes to the base game now.

Only when the base game of GW2 gets a real healing class added starting at level 1 will I as a player ever consider GW2 a trinity MMO.

You dont understand what trinity MMO is.
All people saying “a healing class” or “a tanking class” are wrong.
I will repeat myself for the third time …
If GW2 would finally became a true trinity MMO, it wouldnt a healing class, but nine. And nine tanking classes. And nine power damage classes. And nine condi classes.

Why all anti-trinity people seems to assume that a trinity MMO = 1 tanking class, 1 healing class, and the rest being damage dealer classes ?
PLEASE EXPLAIN ME

Look at other modern mmos, at least the half of classes and tank or/and heal. And GW2 would be the perfect MMO, besides ESO, where all classes could be tank, DD and healer, depending on the chosen trait line.

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

While OP says no trinity is in place I tend to disagree with him… and agree as well…

We have healers, we have had healers for quite some time.

• Druids (3 flavors, Zerk, Zealot and Magi for PvE, Clerics and minstrels for WvW)
• Water Elementalist (needs healing so zealot is mandatory, celestial is less often seen)
• Guardian, mostly forgotten, is still a very decent front line healer, especially with hammer or mace. (clerics/ minstrels) I’d suggest runes of the monk
• Staff revenant Ventari yes, heals…

True, I just think we may need to bring up some builds to make them alternatives like Healing mantra mesmer and leeching venom thief. I suppose a new specialization could help but sometimes I think it’d just be better to improve what we got.

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

“We have no tanks, bunkers yes, but no real tanks”.
Difference being you cannot keep yourself alive factanking everything (or can we?)

• Minstrel guardian would be a pretty good tank….with runes of te trooper
• All other classes can be converted to bunker

I’m probably in the minority but I just think the tanking builds should just have more nuanced defensive measures kind of like how Daredevil has the extra dodge.

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

But these builds are no real trinity. Trinities are often more fixed roles and these are more builds then a dedicated role. As such I prefer this system as it allows my character -to be everything- provided the character is flexible enough by just swapping builds. in 2 cases you could be all at the same time…(celestial ele, celestial engineer, and if you would be mad enough celestail guardian and druid as well)

I think context is integral to these types of discussion. For instance, FFXIV has ‘fixed roles’ as you describe as a real trinity, but it also has a system that allows your character to be everything.

I think what you describe as builds in GW2 is the same as roles. The problem though is there are really only 2 differing roles: the dps and the healer. Tanking is done with a combination of dodging, defensive cooldowns and boons but I think they could add to the game’s systems to make tanking more of a gameplay style on its own.

Scipion.7548:

Only when the base game of GW2 gets a real healing class added starting at level 1 will I as a player ever consider GW2 a trinity MMO.

You dont understand what trinity MMO is.
All people saying “a healing class” or “a tanking class” are wrong.
I will repeat myself for the third time …
If GW2 would finally became a true trinity MMO, it wouldnt a healing class, but nine. And nine tanking classes. And nine power damage classes. And nine condi classes.

Why all anti-trinity people seems to assume that a trinity MMO = 1 tanking class, 1 healing class, and the rest being damage dealer classes ?
PLEASE EXPLAIN ME

Look at other modern mmos, at least the half of classes and tank or/and heal. And GW2 would be the perfect MMO, besides ESO, where all classes could be tank, DD and healer, depending on the chosen trait line.

Why do people like me say what we do? Because our definition of “trinity” and yours are different. Simple as that.

In a Trinity MMO every class isn’t supposed to be able to do it all, each class is specialized.

Background: The definition I go by is DAoC’s trinity concept which was Tank/Healer/CrowdControl-Support. There can be more than one Tank Class, more than one Healing class, etc. These are the “aspects” I was taught comprise a trinity class system. In that trinity system everyone was responsible for DPS in addition to their primary role, or when dpsing like mad to finish a fight quickly, so no need to have classes “just for DPS” like later MMOs had. GW2 does this with the current metagame design of all classes contributing DPS. In a Trinity system not every class can tank, not everyone can heal, not everyone can do CC/Support.

GW2 has a Tank class pretty much covered in base game. GW2 has CC-Support covered like crazy. It does not have a true Healer class. Elementalist is a Mage class and is styled as one. Druid doesn’t count as far as I’m concerned because you can’t play one from level one on up.

To me MMOs are about both the journey from level one to end cap as well as playing the game at end cap. Journey and destination. No class fills Healing role as primary role for the journey and destination.

That’s why I say GW2 can never be consider a Trinty MMO. Anet won’t add new classes to base game like a Healer class so all the worry about GW2 going trinity is a moot point in my opinion. (Much of this is what I was taught by other Players and Devs back in 2001 and that time about MMO design so that explains where I get my opinions from. YMMV.)

There would effectively only be one healing class, one tank and one dps, because for each role there would be one class and build that is considered meta, even if it isn’t. The forums would be flooded with complaints that their special guardian/ritualist/druid can’t get a team place even though they can out heal the monk/healer/whatever. Even content that does not need the absolute optimum team would start to have people demanding those “perfect” classes and builds. The other classes will hardly ever be accepted into groups.

With a trinity there is always a shortage of healers, because it is a thankless and sometimes tedious task. Healers can end up not even looking at the main part of the screen and the most exciting part of their job is deciding who to sacrifice when the pressure rises (clue: never the tank…)

That is what the trinity does for a game.

A major, major plus point for GW2 is the lack of a trinity imho.

Why do people like me say what we do? Because our definition of “trinity” and yours are different. Simple as that.

I cannot accept your arguments and you cannot accept mine if you dont talk about the same thing. The OP never implied your idea of what is the trinity system. The pro-trinity never said only the Druid should be the healer or only the warrior sould be the tank. We arent on a early 2000s MMO.

What is the trinity system ? It is a system where you have 3 roles : tank, DD, healer.
The other details depend of the game. Some classes cannot take one of this role ? Maybe, maybe not, it depends of the game. Are DD speced character enable to do off-tank or off-healer ? Depends. Hybridity ? Depends.
So you sentence “In a Trinity MMO every class isn’t supposed to be able to do it all, each class is specialized.” isnt universally true. It depends of the game.

In a Trinity system not every class can tank, not everyone can heal, not everyone can do CC/Support.

In a game like GW2, it could be the case.

Anet won’t add new classes to base game like a Healer class

Why Anet would add a Healer class ?
We have already 9 healer classes ! The only problems are :
- they are not balanced
- they arent always usefull

What 9 healer classes i’m speaking about ?
- Honor guardian
- Shadow art thief
- Water Ele
- Tactics Warrior
- Nature magic ranger
- Inspiration mesmer
- Blood magic necro
- Invention Engie
- Salvation Rev

Look at this trait lines. All of them imply healing. Each classes has a healing trait line, a tank one, a power one, a condi one, a global one (which should be an elit spec), and the elit spec line. All what the warrior need to be a “true” healer is some balance tricks and the capacity to be as usefull than a power warrior.

The definition I go by is DAoC’s trinity concept which was Tank/Healer/CrowdControl-Support. There can be more than one Tank Class, more than one Healing class, etc. These are the “aspects” I was taught comprise a trinity class system. In that trinity system everyone was responsible for DPS in addition to their primary role, or when dpsing like mad to finish a fight quickly, so no need to have classes “just for DPS” like later MMOs had.

When I speak about trinity system in GW2, it is exactly that. Why didnt you use this definition of trinity ? I used this definition.
But GW2 isnt like that. It could be, but it isnt.

There would effectively only be one healing class, one tank and one dps, because for each role there would be one class and build that is considered meta, even if it isn’t.

Why it isnt the case on other MMOs ?
When I was a healer shaman on WoW, my healer spec was sometimes behind the other healers, while the damage spec of my class were sometimes better than other DPS spec. But I never be blamed to not respec DPS. And I did heroic raids, wich were more hard that GW2 raid.
Is the player mentality worse in GW2 than in WoW or what ?

Scipion.7548:

Why do people like me say what we do? Because our definition of “trinity” and yours are different. Simple as that.

I cannot accept your arguments and you cannot accept mine if you dont talk about the same thing. The OP never implied your idea of what is the trinity system. The pro-trinity never said only the Druid should be the healer or only the warrior sould be the tank. We arent on a early 2000s MMO.

What is the trinity system ? It is a system where you have 3 roles : tank, DD, healer.
The other details depend of the game. Some classes cannot take one of this role ? Maybe, maybe not, it depends of the game. Are DD speced character enable to do off-tank or off-healer ? Depends. Hybridity ? Depends.
So you sentence “In a Trinity MMO every class isn’t supposed to be able to do it all, each class is specialized.” isnt universally true. It depends of the game.

In a Trinity system not every class can tank, not everyone can heal, not everyone can do CC/Support.

In a game like GW2, it could be the case.

Anet won’t add new classes to base game like a Healer class

Why Anet would add a Healer class ?
We have already 9 healer classes ! The only problems are :
- they are not balanced
- they arent always usefull

What 9 healer classes i’m speaking about ?
- Honor guardian
- Shadow art thief
- Water Ele
- Tactics Warrior
- Nature magic ranger
- Inspiration mesmer
- Blood magic necro
- Invention Engie
- Salvation Rev

Look at this trait lines. All of them imply healing. Each classes has a healing trait line, a tank one, a power one, a condi one, a global one (which should be an elit spec), and the elit spec line. All what the warrior need to be a “true” healer is some balance tricks and the capacity to be as usefull than a power warrior.

The definition I go by is DAoC’s trinity concept which was Tank/Healer/CrowdControl-Support. There can be more than one Tank Class, more than one Healing class, etc. These are the “aspects” I was taught comprise a trinity class system. In that trinity system everyone was responsible for DPS in addition to their primary role, or when dpsing like mad to finish a fight quickly, so no need to have classes “just for DPS” like later MMOs had.

When I speak about trinity system in GW2, it is exactly that. Why didnt you use this definition of trinity ? I used this definition.
But GW2 isnt like that. It could be, but it isnt.

There would effectively only be one healing class, one tank and one dps, because for each role there would be one class and build that is considered meta, even if it isn’t.

Why it isnt the case on other MMOs ?
When I was a healer shaman on WoW, my healer spec was sometimes behind the other healers, while the damage spec of my class were sometimes better than other DPS spec. But I never be blamed to not respec DPS. And I did heroic raids, wich were more hard that GW2 raid.
Is the player mentality worse in GW2 than in WoW or what ?

I already described to you what I was taught was the trinity system: Tank/Healer/CC-Support, not Tank/Healer/DPS. That might be Blizzard’s definition but I don’t consider them an authority on Trinity, not their original idea.

Now for the classes in GW2…. what matters to me is the PRIMARY role of a class, not it’s specializations….

- Honor guardian…. Melee/Tank
- Shadow art thief… Scout/Rogue.
- Water Ele……………… Mage.
- Tactics Warrior…….Melee
- Nature magic ranger…. Scout/Rogue
- Inspiration mesmer…. Mage.
- Blood magic necro….. Mage.
- Invention Engie….. Techno Scout/Rogue
- Salvation Rev…. not sure what these are yet, but from what I have read so far definitely NOT a Healer/Priest as a primary role.

Are any of these classes a Priest/Healer Class as a primary role from level one?

No. Not a single one.

As far as I’m concerned, from what classes I have seen from other MMOs, none of these are Priest/Healers. Primary class role is what matters because that determines the thrust of how the class will be/should be balanced in any MMO. There are Class that have some Healing, but that does NOT make them Priest Healers in my understanding of the trinity systems of the old MMO, which is where we get the idea of a trinity system in the first place (and I would argue determines how far back to look for a definition.

Anet designed GW2 this way. They wanted no Healing classes, just every class to have healing skills. Those two ideas are NOT the same thing and never will be.

I wasn’t making a pitch for adding a Healing Class to GW2, that won’t happen. It would screw up the game royally now. I was pointing out People worried about GW2 becoming a trinity MMO is a needless worry. GW2 can never meet the definition of a trinity MMO as defined by the old MMOs the came up with the idea in the first place. Anet’s Devs will balance the Classes by their primary role first and their specializations second, or they should, and that is as it should be. (elite specializations being their own beast).

Now I have explained this again. I understand your point of view and maybe now you understand mine. They are not the same and perhaps never will be. We just see this topic from differing directions. Done here. Have a good day.

Leo G.4501:

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

While OP says no trinity is in place I tend to disagree with him… and agree as well…

We have healers, we have had healers for quite some time.

• Druids (3 flavors, Zerk, Zealot and Magi for PvE, Clerics and minstrels for WvW)
• Water Elementalist (needs healing so zealot is mandatory, celestial is less often seen)
• Guardian, mostly forgotten, is still a very decent front line healer, especially with hammer or mace. (clerics/ minstrels) I’d suggest runes of the monk
• Staff revenant Ventari yes, heals…

True, I just think we may need to bring up some builds to make them alternatives like Healing mantra mesmer and leeching venom thief. I suppose a new specialization could help but sometimes I think it’d just be better to improve what we got.

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

“We have no tanks, bunkers yes, but no real tanks”.
Difference being you cannot keep yourself alive factanking everything (or can we?)

• Minstrel guardian would be a pretty good tank….with runes of te trooper
• All other classes can be converted to bunker

I’m probably in the minority but I just think the tanking builds should just have more nuanced defensive measures kind of like how Daredevil has the extra dodge.

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

But these builds are no real trinity. Trinities are often more fixed roles and these are more builds then a dedicated role. As such I prefer this system as it allows my character -to be everything- provided the character is flexible enough by just swapping builds. in 2 cases you could be all at the same time…(celestial ele, celestial engineer, and if you would be mad enough celestail guardian and druid as well)

I think context is integral to these types of discussion. For instance, FFXIV has ‘fixed roles’ as you describe as a real trinity, but it also has a system that allows your character to be everything.

I think what you describe as builds in GW2 is the same as roles. The problem though is there are really only 2 differing roles: the dps and the healer. Tanking is done with a combination of dodging, defensive cooldowns and boons but I think they could add to the game’s systems to make tanking more of a gameplay style on its own.

Tanking isn’t “Absorbing Damage” – it’s “Keeping enemies off of allies”. I actually prefer the term “Defender” – especially the way D&D 4th Edition handled the role. As a defender, it’s not your job to ‘take hits’. Everyone has a hit point pool, and yours isn’t big enough. Instead, your job is to stick enemies in lose-lose situation.

I’m glad they added Taunt as a mechanic, without making Dedicated Tank classes. Being able to reliably haul an enemy off of an ally is fun. That fun should be shared throughout a raiding party.

For me, a tank is absolutely about taking the hits.
The tank’s job is to attract as many enemies as possible and use the terrain to keep them gathered together at a pinch point or corner then to spam as many self protection/healing buffs as possible whilst keeping their attention. The only time a tank should hit something is when it is necessary to keep the agro.

Done well it’s a joy to behold, but it still does not belong in GW2.

Gardavil.1762:

I already described to you what I was taught was the trinity system: Tank/Healer/CC-Support, not Tank/Healer/DPS. That might be Blizzard’s definition but I don’t consider them an authority on Trinity, not their original idea.

Your perspective lacks context then…or more specifically, relevant context. It’s like taking an archaic definition for a word and then going on to tell everyone how wrong they are when the word has evolved and added to its meaning. Some things that have changed since your old example:

Skill trees- games have them. They are there to give you a more specialized playstyle as well as limit how much you can accomplish at once.

re-spec- most games make it easier to do. This is so you don’t feel punished for trying out different builds. Goes so far as to even reclass for some games with little to no penalty (or even advantageous to do so).

Solo- most games have a campaign that is soloable, made so because every class can dps.

Party Finder- since they’ve become so popular, things have been changed to solve issues with this, primarily the reasons why waiting on a healer takes so long. Some games bypass this by not needing a healer or lessen the demand by giving everyone a small heal ability.

Gardavil.1762:

Now for the classes in GW2…. what matters to me is the PRIMARY role of a class, not it’s specializations….

- Honor guardian…. Melee/Tank
- Shadow art thief… Scout/Rogue.
- Water Ele……………… Mage.
- Tactics Warrior…….Melee
- Nature magic ranger…. Scout/Rogue
- Inspiration mesmer…. Mage.
- Blood magic necro….. Mage.
- Invention Engie….. Techno Scout/Rogue
- Salvation Rev…. not sure what these are yet, but from what I have read so far definitely NOT a Healer/Priest as a primary role.

Are any of these classes a Priest/Healer Class as a primary role from level one?

No. Not a single one.

Again, no relevant context here. There is no priest/healer class primary role because in GW2 no one focuses on just healing. This is an extremely ‘duh’ response because even one of the more popular hard-trinity MMOs (FFXIV) the ‘healer’ jobs don’t have a primary role but a mix role of healing/support and DPS. A white mage in that game is only a primarily healer role in name alone (that is to say, the game tells you that that is your job) but if you go into a group and expect to only heal, you will be pestered to dps as well.

In this game, you can build yourself to have strengths. I have a healer tempest build. He heals really well. He’s also pretty tough so doesn’t go down very easily. He also supports with might, vigor and protection. He can also accomplish a bit of condition damage. I can accomplish similar with just water/earth/[take your pick of arcane/air/fire] elementalist. The problem with your comparison is that you can’t do much from lvl 1 because builds unlock throughout the journey. By your logic, you can’t even be a dps because the traits to be a good one aren’t unlocked until later.

Gardavil.1762:

There are Class that have some Healing, but that does NOT make them Priest Healers in my understanding of the trinity systems of the old MMO, which is where we get the idea of a trinity system in the first place (and I would argue determines how far back to look for a definition.

There’s your problem! You can’t just look back for definitions, you have to look to the present as well to give words context otherwise you’re just reciting outdated irrelevant information.

Gardavil.1762:

Anet designed GW2 this way. They wanted no Healing classes, just every class to have healing skills. Those two ideas are NOT the same thing and never will be.

Not wholly true. I don’t think they wanted to have healing classes, but instead support builds. This is relevant because support and bunker specs have existed since the beginning. Healing, in particular, has been in flux, from the ICD on omnomberry pie to the ICD on dodge heals to the rescaling of healing power, etc. Even now, I believe Anet want to have support specs for every profession but healing is only a part of support. You can’t support a group by just dropping heals on them, especially not a fast-paced game like GW2. That’s why equipment has more than 2 stats on them. That’s why you had more than enough points to spec out for healing. That’s why you have multiple weapons to pick from.

DoctorDing.5890:

There would effectively only be one healing class, one tank and one dps, because for each role there would be one class and build that is considered meta, even if it isn’t. The forums would be flooded with complaints that their special guardian/ritualist/druid can’t get a team place even though they can out heal the monk/healer/whatever. Even content that does not need the absolute optimum team would start to have people demanding those “perfect” classes and builds. The other classes will hardly ever be accepted into groups.

With a trinity there is always a shortage of healers, because it is a thankless and sometimes tedious task. Healers can end up not even looking at the main part of the screen and the most exciting part of their job is deciding who to sacrifice when the pressure rises (clue: never the tank…)

That is what the trinity does for a game.

A major, major plus point for GW2 is the lack of a trinity imho.

There are likely shortages on healers because of the high emphasis put on healers which tends to also add responsibility to the role.

But taking another hard trinity game as an example, City of Heroes, even though Defenders and Corruptors were the often looked at ‘healer’ archetype, healers weren’t a necessity. So if everyone died, it wasn’t because the healer sucked (most of the time), it was because you bit off more than you could chew or went off by yourself (and no one cared much if you did run off and die!). Not only that, but the ‘healer’ role was actually inferior to the support role. Bubbling up your allies with resistance and defense and letting them go to town while not dying was more effective than healing the damage after getting molly-whompped. People loved being Defenders and Corruptors! Not that everyone would play one, but what you played hinged on your playstyle and what your character was meant to embody.

I think GW2 can be generally similar if people just looked outside the box of expectation and just try things out and have fun. Too often people will be swayed by what is meta, what is efficient, or overanalyze fun (omg healers just watch healthbars!).

Sartharina.3542:

Tanking isn’t “Absorbing Damage” – it’s “Keeping enemies off of allies”. I actually prefer the term “Defender” – especially the way D&D 4th Edition handled the role. As a defender, it’s not your job to ‘take hits’. Everyone has a hit point pool, and yours isn’t big enough. Instead, your job is to stick enemies in lose-lose situation.

I’m glad they added Taunt as a mechanic, without making Dedicated Tank classes. Being able to reliably haul an enemy off of an ally is fun. That fun should be shared throughout a raiding party.

Right, that does sound interesting.

To clarify, what I meant by tanking in GW2 is mainly keeping the enemies off your people while not dying yourself. Would be interested in seeing a write up on how you’d execute tanking roles in this game with the whole “put the enemies in lose-lose situations”.

But I hear ya. My favorite game by far was CoH and in that game, tanking wasn’t really about taking hits either (well, not all of it). Like an Ice Tanker wouldn’t be all about absorbing hits but laying down ice slicks to cause foes to fall down, chilling them so they would attack slower and do less damage or outright freezing them. Couple that with the secondary and pool powers and you can make dozens of unique ice tankers that could lower accuracy and steal health (dark melee), cleave them with weapons and knocking them about while lowering foes defense (swords/axes/maces), just burning them and doing more damage (fire melee), freezing more people so you’re like a tank/control guy (ice melee), stuns and knockdown with your fists and feet (martial arts and super strength). Just a crazy amount of things you could accomplish with just the powers alone.

Even still, though the archetypes had roles hard-locked into them, I’d still say it was a soft trinity type system. Cause you could use either Tanks or Controllers or Dominators to control enemies…or you could just not and fill the role with more damage types or more support types and overpower the enemy. You didn’t need damage types either as supports could just bolster themselves to deal good damage or controlling the enemies into near inertness could eliminate the need to heal or defend…or if you just had enough damage to nuke everything to death…

Personally, I am hoping the next expansion becomes so difficult that players must join groups to survive open world.

Then, groups will sort out roles amongst themselves for the most efficient way to grind and not waste time dying.

I do not mean that players will have only one role. I do mean that one player may be primary for a roll while acting as secondary, tertiary, and emergency back-up for all other roles.

I main Necromancer. The way the profession looks right now, potential main roles might be tank, power damage, debuffs, crowd control, pets. Secondary roles may be tank, power damage, condition damage, debuff removal, and healing. I can rebuild anywhere OoC by changing equipment, traits, and skills.

Do you want roles? That was eight right there. Between members of your group, there are more than enough options for developing roles.

Now, all we need is open world trying very hard to kill our characters so we are forced to group up and assume some responsibilities.

You’re talking about City of Heroes, and making me sad that it’s gone. I loved everything about that game except encounter and level design (And eventually, the lack of Guild Wars 2’s improvements to the genre). I had tremendous fun as a feline-themed scrapper hero in that game with two swords (One white, one black. Because I was 14 at the time). But then real life got in the way, and by the time the game went free-to-play, I’d developed into a graphics kitten and couldn’t get back into the game’s overly-aged graphics and repetitive level design.

I’m not a competitive person, so I don’t really WvW or PvP, but I imagine it’s possible to sort-of go with a ‘defender’ role in PvP/WvW in group play by going with a bunker+control build (For example, warrior with Mace+Shield/Rifle, or something like that), and using positioning and CC to force enemies to do things they’re rather not – You’re not a big threat on your own, so they’d rather focus on squishier allies. But if they DON’T try to take you out, they have to deal with constantly being hit by CC, (And allies end up boosted with things like Aegis and Protection for Guardian defenders) which doesn’t care about stats all that much. Of course, GW2 is pretty lacking in this regard – but it boils down to enemies having to make the choice between "Hitting this guy who’s really good at taking our hits to stop him from stopping us from killing his allies through CC and boons, or try hitting his squishier, more damaging allies while suffering through blocked, interrupted, and missed attacks, and other impediments.

Anchoku.8142:

Personally, I am hoping the next expansion becomes so difficult that players must join groups to survive open world.

Then, groups will sort out roles amongst themselves for the most efficient way to grind and not waste time dying.

I do not mean that players will have only one role. I do mean that one player may be primary for a roll while acting as secondary, tertiary, and emergency back-up for all other roles.

I main Necromancer. The way the profession looks right now, potential main roles might be tank, power damage, debuffs, crowd control, pets. Secondary roles may be tank, power damage, condition damage, debuff removal, and healing. I can rebuild anywhere OoC by changing equipment, traits, and skills.

Do you want roles? That was eight right there. Between members of your group, there are more than enough options for developing roles.

Now, all we need is open world trying very hard to kill our characters so we are forced to group up and assume some responsibilities.

Sounds foolish, Sometimes you want to play the game by yourself, you shouldn’t be forced into groups in open world. I already think they went too far with hero challenges in HoT.

STIHL.2489:

Crinn.7864:

GW2 can do trinity for raids without infringing on your ability to run whatever in the rest of the game. But not having proper trinity in raids leads to the devs having their hands tied when it comes to interesting mechanics.

When did “Tank&Spank” become an “Interesting Mechanic” ?

IMHO, in all this debate, the only one that gets a clue it is STIHL.

It is irrelevant if GW2 allows “Trinity” or not. What is relevant is GW2 allows MUCH MORE. Because Trinity basic strategy is BORING.

If it were up to me, I’ll organize encounter mechanics around a “GW2 Quintet” or something like that: Defense, Healing, Crowd Control, Damage (Direct and/or Over-time), Boost/Debuff. Even this could become boring after a few years, but at least is not already wasted and obsolete.

Ardid.7203:

STIHL.2489:

Crinn.7864:

GW2 can do trinity for raids without infringing on your ability to run whatever in the rest of the game. But not having proper trinity in raids leads to the devs having their hands tied when it comes to interesting mechanics.

When did “Tank&Spank” become an “Interesting Mechanic” ?

IMHO, in all this debate, the only one that gets a clue it is STIHL.

It is irrelevant if GW2 allows “Trinity” or not. What is relevant is GW2 allows MUCH MORE. Because Trinity basic strategy is BORING.

If it were up to me, I’ll organize encounter mechanics around a “GW2 Quintet” or something like that: Defense, Healing, Crowd Control, Damage (Direct and/or Over-time), Boost/Debuff. Even this could become boring after a few years, but at least is not already wasted and obsolete.

The current strategy is boring. “Do as much damage as possible.” That’s it. That’s all you do. You use as little of everything else you can while just pushing numbers. The fewer buttons you are pushing the more pro you are.

dont see how a trinity will change that
/boring encounters is boring!

While staying alive, that is. This is an action game, not pen and paper. You’re meant to dodge, duck, dip, dive, and DPS, not just sit there and take it.

EDIT:

Personally, I hate the trinity system, and if the game went that direction I’d stop playing completely.

The reason is that the trinity system is a system of negatives. Each player is built specifically to be ineffectual own their own, and this was done so to deal with the extremely basic aggro mechanics that older MMOs had. It is about having a series of classes that are inept and incapable on their own, forcing a grouping up.

In reality, the trinity system is actual a duality system. It is about tank and healer, and is built around maximizing effective HP and effective health regeneration per encounter. Enrage timers had to be added to harder content to give DPS a role, because otherwise everything would be completed just by having tanks and healers. The DPS role is basically occupied by extra people you use to fill the party slots once you have the requisite tanks and healers.

The system isn’t necessarily boring, as much as it just plain sucks. You don’t have independence, and the moment something goes wrong everyone blames the tank/healer. Because nobody wants to be the tank/healer, everyone stands around waiting for one to show up in a group. And throughout all this, I keep wondering where the red mage is. Maybe it is because I hail from the days of Phantasy Star Universe and Monster Hunter, but having the classes be ineffectual specifically to force grouping is a horrible idea. I’d rather have each class be effective, AND have a set of strengths to go with it. Then, I’m not forced to wait around for people to play the game, and if something goes wrong then it isn’t automatically the healer’s fault. I’d rather be empowered then specially incompetent.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

While staying alive, that is. This is an action game, not pen and paper. You’re meant to dodge, duck, dip, dive, and DPS, not just sit there and take it.

I just wish there was more depth to that. Toughness isn’t meant to get you through it, Vitality isn’t mean to allow you to out-survive it, Healing Power isn’t meant to sustain you through a relentless assault. I’d almost they’d just remove the stats and replace them with something else more mechanically inclined while focusing more on just the offensive pieces since the game is all about active defense plus pure offense.

It’s like playing a weird and clunky version of Dark Souls; your armor does nothing but allow you play peakitten and that is working as intended. I just remember when the game was tougher and somewhat wish that the developer had stuck to their guns but I understand that their playerbase is at stake too. “Casual” and “Action-Oriented MMO” probably shouldn’t have been blended.

But enough of my belly-aching. I’m too old to bemoan a game.

Trinity isn’t a bad thing. Staying still casting your rotation for max DPS till boss dies is.

The good thing with the “trinity” is balance. 3 roles and every class is able to fulfill their role (usually) just as good as any other class with that role.

Now what do we have in GW2? The roles in GW2 are not set and with that comes a lot of unbalance. We get certain builds and setups that are so good that certain professions BECOME a role and that is a problem IMO.

A good example would be the Phalanx Warrior aka “might provider”. Yes you can play without him in a group (PvE) and get the might from other sources but why bother with that if you can just take a warrior instead which is better AND easier?

If “might provider” would actually be a role that anet is balancing multiple professions could fulfill that role purely on their own on the same level. (Or maybe tune the warrior in that role down)

I’m not saying “make every professio the same” but some actual roles that emerged so far are so limited to only one or a few professions which doesn’t feel right. Maybe more elite specs might fill some of those “holes” but I don’t think that this will entirely solve that ‘problem’.

After all the new elite specs created like 3 new roles, at least in raids.

Neox.3497:

The good thing with the “trinity” is balance. 3 roles and every class is able to fulfill their role (usually) just as good as any other class with that role.

Now what do we have in GW2? The roles in GW2 are not set and with that comes a lot of unbalance. We get certain builds and setups that are so good that certain professions BECOME a role and that is a problem IMO.

A good example would be the Phalanx Warrior aka “might provider”. Yes you can play without him in a group (PvE) and get the might from other sources but why bother with that if you can just take a warrior instead which is better AND easier?

If “might provider” would actually be a role that anet is balancing multiple professions could fulfill that role purely on their own on the same level. (Or maybe tune the warrior in that role down)

I’m not saying “make every professio the same” but some actual roles that emerged so far are so limited to only one or a few professions which doesn’t feel right. Maybe more elite specs might fill some of those “holes” but I don’t think that this will entirely solve that ‘problem’.

After all the new elite specs created like 3 new roles, at least in raids.

IMO, I think that’s an issue with Might (and to a lesser degree, boon application in general) as well as some combos being too easily accessible…but that’d be another discussion entirely.

I made a Trinity Concept idea a few years ago.

it worked like this.

In PvE Dungeons/Instances, all CC get reduced.. But there is a defensive stat that players can collect to increase the duration of CC and the effect of CC on defiant mobs. So Players can spec for the Controller role.

The control stat can also have a side effect of increasing incoming heals. This makes +healing seem more valued for people that spec heals.

DPS same.

Defensive stats get new stats added for defense, to spec into as a trade off for damage and healing, so everybody dont just run full hybrid and full dps

Knighthonor.4061:

I made a Trinity Concept idea a few years ago.

it worked like this.

In PvE Dungeons/Instances, all CC get reduced.. But there is a defensive stat that players can collect to increase the duration of CC and the effect of CC on defiant mobs. So Players can spec for the Controller role.

The control stat can also have a side effect of increasing incoming heals. This makes +healing seem more valued for people that spec heals.

DPS same.

Defensive stats get new stats added for defense, to spec into as a trade off for damage and healing, so everybody dont just run full hybrid and full dps

This seems to be a lot of rework etc.

However if they do some changes like that I would love to see a change to the boon protection: What if toughness would scale the damage reduction of protection that YOU apply?

With that they would have to reduce the default protection. For example players without toughness (eg. Berserker) have ~25% by default and players with full Knights have ~40%.

This would create a whole new reason to get a player with more toughness who can pump out protection without directly forcing it.

Agreed i was never against the trinity thing, it works better than what we’ve got here anyway..
Honestly the whole no trinity feature made the game worse than the actual thing it was trying to fix in the first place imo..

For an example of what is wrong with trinity, go try to join a party in GW1 as a smiter monk or, even better, as a ranger.

That’s actual bad mechanics making classes useless is not a trinity thing, if those classes were created with trinity in mind it wouldn’t have been an issue.