Guild Wars 2

There are runes with this effect and traits as well but no formal name has been given to the effect. For instance, Runes of Melandru, which reduces the duration of conditions as a direct counter to condition duration increases or traits that reduce condition duration.

You (Anet) added this as “Expertise” to equipment pieces that previously didn’t have this, alongside “Concentration”. I am not into naming things so I won’t try to name the stat but I’d like to at least look at the possibility; it would add more build diversity and possibly create defenses more in-line with the game’s core mantra since true mitigation, rather than absorption, and tactical placement matter more than raw numbers (toughness, vitality) or flooding defenses (healing power).

I will even go so far as to accept an all-encompassing defensive shell where all effects that come from external sources are reduced, boons and conditions alike, if that would be a balance concern. This way it has tactical weight as you have to measure not only your own boon creation abilities but then weigh what you are willing to give up. This of course is the final resort, not the preference, as I just want a counter to expertise that doesn’t take up rune slots and basically leave opponents at the mercy of builds which capitalize on something without a direct counter.

Yes, yes, I know, GW2 isn’t actually that tactical of a game, but may as well ask.

Oh, this would see play mainly in WvWvW and some PvE scenarios. It isn’t a PvP thing.

Nah. With runes and food, it’s already easy enough to get a massive condition duration reduction. Pointless to add stats for it.

you can have:

• up to -45% condition duration , (runes & food) -> this alone negates expertise.
• resistance, temporary invulnerability to conditions.
• immunity to all condition dmg (think obsidion flesh), other traits tend to reduce dmg or otherwise help with the conditions you face…
• abilities to return conditions (sigil of generosity, condition transfers (mallyx or necro)
• condition cleanses, or turned to boons. by skill, aoe skills, shouts&runes(trooper), traits (warrior warhorn?, elementalist:on granting regen?)
• light fields and whirl or leap finishers
• In moderate amounts just having a decent regen ability (virtue of resolve, soothing mist, healing signet, ranger signet will compensate for some conditions, and AOE heals/ rangers or water ele’s can heal you perfectly.
• lastly you could dodge, block or reflect the attacks in many cases.

These options should provide some acces to tactics.

Still think you do not have options?
You cannot be saying: Well…. I want a build unvulnerable to both conditions and dmg…. So I can pawn everything with no effort. It would create a bunker meta and a thus a slow slow meta… which seems not very interesting in a fast pace combat system.

65% actually, with food and runes.

Aidan Savage.2078:

65% actually, with food and runes.

condition reduction foods only remove 20%
runes like melandru’s only remove 25%

-40% food is now -20%…

Aidan Savage.2078:

Nah. With runes and food, it’s already easy enough to get a massive condition duration reduction. Pointless to add stats for it.

The same thing was true of Expertise. Pointlessness isn’t the point, balance is.

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

you can have:

• up to -45% condition duration , (runes & food) -> this alone negates expertise.
• resistance, temporary invulnerability to conditions.
• immunity to all condition dmg (think obsidion flesh), other traits tend to reduce dmg or otherwise help with the conditions you face…
• abilities to return conditions (sigil of generosity, condition transfers (mallyx or necro)
• condition cleanses, or turned to boons. by skill, aoe skills, shouts&runes(trooper), traits (warrior warhorn?, elementalist:on granting regen?)
• light fields and whirl or leap finishers
• In moderate amounts just having a decent regen ability (virtue of resolve, soothing mist, healing signet, ranger signet will compensate for some conditions, and AOE heals/ rangers or water ele’s can heal you perfectly.
• lastly you could dodge, block or reflect the attacks in many cases.

These options should provide some acces to tactics.

Still think you do not have options?
You cannot be saying: Well…. I want a build unvulnerable to both conditions and dmg…. So I can pawn everything with no effort. It would create a bunker meta and a thus a slow slow meta… which seems not very interesting in a fast pace combat system.

Expertise on armor alone is worth the 45% off of both food and runes. There are no other direct universal sources. This means that if we compared food to food they would negate but rune to rune 30% condition duration versus 25 condition reduction, so it’s a 5% tilt in the favor of expertise, not considering the effects of the armor, which in turn means that there’s no real defense. Furthermore taking expertise comes with armor that favors it’s position, it has condition damage, so it’s tactically intelligent meanwhile taking Melandru is a “flavor” choice, and isn’t really comparable.

Resistance is too far and few between, as are light fields and their creation solely to counter conditions, conditions are easier to apply, now apply much, much faster damage due to stacking intensity instead of duration, have much fewer cooldowns and apply much greater pressure often being attached to attacks that don’t have a cooldown such as “1”, regenerative abilities cannot keep up with that because heal over time doesn’t stack in intensity and stacks in duration making it poorer against condition bursts such as poison or burning, and everything that is class dependent isn’t universal.

When expertise was added a lot of the game needed to change for that. Previously Giver’s weapons, which had precision and toughness, were where you got your condition duration. This was good because it was offset by not giving you condition damage and making condition duration more of a balancing between considerations but now honestly it’s a no-brainer for many classes that want to focus on conditions. It’s easy-mode.

I suppose my request is based on the grounds that while having class weakness is normally a good thing it isn’t in a game where supposedly every class can stand on their own. However Expertise is now a universal leg-up because all classes deal conditions and most of them deal very damaging ones or conditions that used to stack duration very, very rapidly.

You cannot be saying: Well…. I want a build unvulnerable to both conditions and dmg…. So I can pawn everything with no effort. It would create a bunker meta and a thus a slow slow meta… which seems not very interesting in a fast pace combat system.

To this it’s not that I want to introduce bunker builds but instead that I don’t want a lack of options for people who did not choose to play classes that have the only options built in. I don’t think a bunker “meta” would emerge because if that were to happen it would have happened on the power side and it never did. It’s just the amount of active defense for the power side is about equivalent to the offensive capabilities of the power side but this is not so for the condition side.

Im not positive but I think +% condition duration gives a static amount of condition time that cannot be altered beyond removal.

-% condition duration affects the base duration only. So adding a Stat for it wouldn’t be as severe as people might think nor as useful.

Justine.6351:

Im not positive but I think +% condition duration gives a static amount of condition time that cannot be altered beyond removal.

-% condition duration affects the base duration only. So adding a Stat for it wouldn’t be as severe as people might think nor as useful.

I believe that is how it works as well. That’s actually why it is sort of important; if you are struck by a 5 second poison your best bet is to reduce the duration of that poison than it is to remove or heal through it because of it’s side-effect on healing and the scarcity of condition removal and condition sharing (Rune of Generosity which is obscenely expensive and has a cooldown) but if this becomes a 10 second poison because it stacks now that’s far, far more damage and far, far harder to outheal. As it stacks it becomes more and more important you shorten the condition. The same thing is true of burning now. You are more likely to die from the number of stacks than you are the full duration of the burn so shortening the burn itself is more effective than healing through it or trying to cleanse it to keep under a certain number of stacks depending on your opponent.

It gives slightly better control of damage intake because you can reduce the total number of stacks you can have on you at one time which may add two seconds to your life.

DGraves.3720:

Justine.6351:

Im not positive but I think +% condition duration gives a static amount of condition time that cannot be altered beyond removal.

-% condition duration affects the base duration only. So adding a Stat for it wouldn’t be as severe as people might think nor as useful.

I believe that is how it works as well. That’s actually why it is sort of important; if you are struck by a 5 second poison your best bet is to reduce the duration of that poison than it is to remove or heal through it because of it’s side-effect on healing and the scarcity of condition removal and condition sharing (Rune of Generosity which is obscenely expensive and has a cooldown) but if this becomes a 10 second poison because it stacks now that’s far, far more damage and far, far harder to outheal. As it stacks it becomes more and more important you shorten the condition. The same thing is true of burning now. You are more likely to die from the number of stacks than you are the full duration of the burn so shortening the burn itself is more effective than healing through it or trying to cleanse it to keep under a certain number of stacks depending on your opponent.

It gives slightly better control of damage intake because you can reduce the total number of stacks you can have on you at one time which may add two seconds to your life.

Superior rune of generosity is 25 silvers last I looked which is hardly obscenely expensive. It used to be several hundred gold but prices have plummetted.

Sigil of purity is dirt cheap at around 3 silvers and cleansing very cheap to craft. My warrior uses fast hands with weapon swaps and cleansing on one sigil to clear off conditions on demand. (brawlers recovery+ cleansing=2 cleanses on swap).

I tend to prefer cleansing sigil over the generoisty and purity because you are in control of the cleanse.

Its not prominent, but should also mention the boon Resistance.
Dont think I saw anyone mention that yet.

babazhook.6805:

Superior rune of generosity is 25 silvers last I looked which is hardly obscenely expensive. It used to be several hundred gold but prices have plummetted.

Sigil of purity is dirt cheap at around 3 silvers and cleansing very cheap to craft. My warrior uses fast hands with weapon swaps and cleansing on one sigil to clear off conditions on demand. (brawlers recovery+ cleansing=2 cleanses on swap).

I tend to prefer cleansing sigil over the generoisty and purity because you are in control of the cleanse.

You are right and I apologize about the sigil of generosity price misquote. Though that doesn’t solve the cooldown issue with condition pressure being increased now. But thanks for catching that.

9 seconds is relatively fast cause you do not consider ramp-up-time iun your story,

If you look at DPS builds in 9 seconds: My staff ele will hit for

Lightning storm dmg is about 400-450/hit or crits 1000-1200 /hit 36 hits ~10sec
f3 (overload air) is about 1000-1200/hit or 2400 on crit 17 hits ~4sec
~1750-4k on fireball with might and fury, each hit, and on
MS dmg is around 2800-3300 or crits: 7500-8250 dmg/hit….24 times,
with 70+% crit chance

1st second (lightning storm)
2nd second(overload air) 450-1100-1100-1000
3rd second ->fire (MS cast starts) 450-1100-1100-1000-2000-2200
4th second (MS channel) 450-1000-1100-2000-2200-1000
5th second (MS channel) 450-1000-1100-2000-2200-1000
6th second (MS channel ends) 450-1000-1100-2000-2200-1000-3750-8000
7th second (F3 ends) fireball auto 450-1000-1100-3750-8000-8000-8000-8000-3750
8th second 450-1000-1100-3750-8000-8000-8000-3750-8000-4000
9th second 450-1000-1100-3750-8000-8000-8000-8000-4000
(MS continues for another second, you’ll revert to auto afterwards, in 10 seconds the MS is recharged as will be the overload air if you want to switch back)

Total dmg cause of AoE’s I expect ~33% to hit
burst till 10th seocnd is about 180000 dmg, if 33% hits total dmg is about 60k dmg.

When looking at CONDITIONS

My scepter/dagger necro can do skill 2, skill 5, skill 4 ,skill 3, corrosive PC, DS,#4,#3,#3 then autoattack:

1st second grasping dead 3 bleeds, cripple
(3 bleeds, cripple) _> 480 dmg
(both cleansed by generosity and purity of you’d carry both)
2nd second enfeebling blood 2 bleeds, weakness
(5 bleeds, cripple, weakness) 600 dmg
3rd second deathly swarm blindness, chill
(5 bleeds, cripple <weakness, chill) 1400 dmg
4th second Feast of corruption 6 torment
(5 bleeds, cripple, weakness,chill, 6 torment 2100 dmg
5th second Corrosive poison cloud 4 poison
(5 bleeds, cripple, weakness, chill , 6 torment, 4 poison) 2740 mg
6th second reaper shroud: Soulspiral (4) 3 poison and poison bolts from whirl (+6 poison)
(5 bleeds, cripple, weakness,chill, 6 torment, 14 poison) 4300 dmg
7th second infusing terror (3), again(3) chill and terror
(5 bleeds, cripple, weakness, 6 torment, 24 poison, chill, terror 7100 dmg
8th second leave DS. (epidemic?). or auto…
(8 bleeds, cripple, weakness, 6 torment, 18 poison, chill, terror) ~6500 dmg
9th second auto
(11 bleeds, cripple, weakness, 6 torment, 12 poison, chill) ~5700 dmg
again 1st 2 conditions cleansed by generosity, you could have cleaned more yourself.
making all effort till now useless from the condition user… and requiring a a re-ramp up and mitigating dmg output, by a LOT!

But this is armor ingnoring… total dmg for 9 seconds…: ~30-35k dmg with a viper build these 10 attacks will likely do another 5-10k DPS dmg… (doubtfull though)
DMG will improve, but you can use condition removals and so on. to clean stacks and return conditions, I’d probably try to send ’m back again, but….

For me :

Burst on DPS is double the burst on conditions.
The condition build is mostly limited targets. scepter is still 1 target, when the necro is done with his burst it’s 1 target for the better part of his procs, to spread the necro can revert to epidemic, whcih is relatively unique (only revenant has a comparable mechanic) only a few condition builds are truly AOE (engineer for example, or burn warrior or guardian the latter 2 limited by the amount of conditions.)
regarding cleansing, the less conditions a build does the easier it is to beat using countermeasures.

Amounts of DIFFERENT conditions: (dmg from bleed, poison, torment, burning,confusion, (terror/chill))
Engineer has acces to many conditions (5(?))
(can stack huge amounts of bleeds, chill, poison, burning, confusion, don’t know about torment)
necro has acces to many conditions (7)
(necro: okay application can use conditions of others, can send conditions, 2 optional dmg-ing conditions are non stackable (terror and chill)!)
Mesmer has acces to many conditions (5+)
(mesmer: xtremely short duration extremely fast application, mostly 1 target)
ranger has acces to many conditions (5+)
(ranger: conditions of choice via pet, Many AOE’s)
revenant has acces to agood deal of conditions (3-5)
thief has acces to a a okay array of conditions (4)
(thief: mostly situational and conditional application.
warrior has access to a limited array of conditions (2 or 3)
(warrior: reliant on burning and bleeding, acces to torment in exchange of several stacks of burning)
guardian is hampered by using only 1 condition.
(guardian fully reliant on burning, making it ineffective vs destroyers )

The DPS builds uses all wide area AOE’s… whgen done with the burst the autoattack still hits 3 ppl Mots DPS buiilds have cleaving autoatacks.

Both are ranged. You can instantly remove a lot of dmg from both (invulnerability,dodges protection aegis, blindness,reflects, dmg mitigating food and utility, toughness for the DPS)
(invulnerability,dodges,resistance, aegis, blindness,cleanses and duration removal runes/trinkets, sigils runes and so on. for the Conditions)

I think it’s mostly bal;anced but ytou do not want to commit to using cleanses and condiution countermeasures in your build. If you choose not to do so, it’s your problem you die from conditions. It feels the same for me like glass builds facetanking enemies without dodging or using other mitigations or heals.

People claim to want balance but I doubt that is what they really want. What they actually want is to beat condition damage users.

I would be ok with a condition reduction stat as long as it was balanced the same way as power damage. This would mean:

1. Removal of ALL condition cleanses from the game, there is no power equivalent so in order to maintain balance these must be removed.

2. Resistance boon must be changed to only block 20% of condition damage instead of 100% in order to match protection.

3. Conditions can now crit for double application

4. Ferocity now affects conditions as well with each 50% ferocity adding an extra condition stack on crit.

Now power and condition damage will be the same, have fun!

The wonderful thing about your comparison is you made my point for me. In order for me to even compare the two I have to ask you questions about the first, but not the second, because armor class (heavy, medium, and light), toughness, and damage reduction capabilities whether driven by traits or through the boon Protection all effect the lightning strikes but none of them effect the condition damage.

A heavily armored warrior may not even need to block depending on the build and boons. Then considering active defenses comes in and we have Endure Pain which allows conditions and CC through but no damage and then we get to the list of mitigating effects, one of which is food, which also doesn’t work against conditions.

So your 60,000 damage salvo presumes some value of armor and toughness, can be passively mitigated through traits depending on class and food, and honestly has an entire weapon (shield) dedicated to mitigation but almost every class has multiple access to blocks but not resistance.

The point, simply put, is that while every class has a decent amount in their pocket
against this 60,000 not every class has easy or reliable access to the same for the 30,000. This means that condition pressure, that is condition damage that can be applied over and over very rapidly (auto-attacks with quickness, for instance, or just really rapid auto-chains) is of greater effectiveness than power pressure at the moment.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

People claim to want balance but I doubt that is what they really want. What they actually want is to beat condition damage users.

Actually I made this because I am a condition damage user. Looking at some of my builds it’s feels tilted in my favor because of how much more defense I can take or defensive choices I can make in traits than I could in Power builds.

I would be ok with a condition reduction stat as long as it was balanced the same way as power damage. This would mean:

1. Removal of ALL condition cleanses from the game, there is no power equivalent so in order to maintain balance these must be removed.

Blocking.

2. Resistance boon must be changed to only block 20% of condition damage instead of 100% in order to match protection.

Protection actually is more effective because it reduces damage, resistance freezes effects. It doesn’t remove them. So for instance if you have a 30s bleed and 5s of resistance it becomes a 25s bleed but the bleed doesn’t “go away”. So stacking conditions against people with resistance still works which is why Expertise is so problematic. When you block an attack if it was worth 1 or 1.6 trillion it is all 0. If I slash you with a 12s bleed your 2s of resistance makes that bleed 10s but if it’s an auto-attack I’m still stacking them faster than you can resist them.

Blocking works equally well against conditions, DGraves.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Blocking works equally well against conditions, DGraves.

Blocking works against all damage, which is fine, but when considering direct damage versus condition damage consistent pressure is harder to counter with conditions than with with power. You block “the big move” with power but condition builds typically don’t run on “big moves” but instead small strings. This renders power type blocking less effective against condition type string attacks.

I’ll try my best at a solution without a new stat; I haven’t read the thread, cause I’m a bit pressed for time, so I hope I do not waste your time in the process..

DGraves.3720:

The wonderful thing about your comparison is you made my point for me. In order for me to even compare the two I have to ask you questions about the first, but not the second, because armor class (heavy, medium, and light), toughness, and damage reduction capabilities whether driven by traits or through the boon Protection all effect the lightning strikes but none of them effect the condition damage.

A heavily armored warrior may not even need to block depending on the build and boons. Then considering active defenses comes in and we have Endure Pain which allows conditions and CC through but no damage and then we get to the list of mitigating effects, one of which is food, which also doesn’t work against conditions.

So your 60,000 damage salvo presumes some value of armor and toughness, can be passively mitigated through traits depending on class and food, and honestly has an entire weapon (shield) dedicated to mitigation but almost every class has multiple access to blocks but not resistance.

The point, simply put, is that while every class has a decent amount in their pocket
against this 60,000 not every class has easy or reliable access to the same for the 30,000. This means that condition pressure, that is condition damage that can be applied over and over very rapidly (auto-attacks with quickness, for instance, or just really rapid auto-chains) is of greater effectiveness than power pressure at the moment.

Protection mitigates 33% of the dmg (say you’ve got 40k left now)
Full toughness mitigates about 40% of the dmg (say you’ve got 24K left if you also have protection up)
Invulnerability negates ALL DPS.

But IF you act like most ppl do with conditions: not bringing ANY countermeasures you’ll eat 60K dmg Which is what happens to most ppl showing they cannot extend their vision or creativity in builds past the Metabattle max DPS builds.

Resistance will negate ALL DOT being invulnerability to condition ticks, the conditions will remain however, and can be stacked even higher..

Cleanses will clean stacks and there are plenty of builds with acces to 5+ condi cleanses in quick succession. extremes are shout heal warriors (7 cleanses with WH) or shout cleansing guardians (well start at 10 cleanses based solely on shouts) both useable within seconds if needed. Both will have innate regen as well. other classes with shouts are Elementalist, ranger, necromancer, though these 3 will have acces to pleanty of other cleaning as well…

Expertise is nice, but to get what you want 1 thing should be changed.
I will write it down.

Now condition duration and condition reduction work on the final result like this:

no buff:
(100% (base) – 45% (reduction) =55%
full buff:
(100% (base) + 100% (expertise and buff)) – 45% (reduction) = 155%

I can see the unfairness in this.

I’d suggest it would be changed like this

no buff
(100% (base) – 45% (reduction) =55%
full buff:
(100% (base) – 45% (reduction)) * 1+ 100% (expertise and buff) = 110%

this is how it should be IMHO. and it would render all builds with high toughness and high condition reduction -mostly- invulnerable to ANY dmg. and would create a build set which would Never Die provided it had regen and or regeneration… corrupting all balance in affected game area’s. (read WvW and PvE)

As for PvP (no food) reduction from runes

No buffs:
100% (base) – 25%(reduction) =75%

Full buffs
(expertise only)
100%(base) -25% (reduction) * 1+ 37.33/100 =~103%
(expertise and malice)
100%(base) -25% (reduction) * 1+ 47.33/100 = 110.5%
(nightmare rune, expertise and malice)
100%(base) -25% (reduction) * 1+ 62,33/100 (expertise+buff) = 121.75%
(balthazar rune, expertise and malice)
100%(base) -25% (reduction) * 1+ 92,33% (expertise+buff) = 144.25%

Well that’s my solution, but it comes at a consideration.

1st It will be the true introduction of the TRUE BUNKER, giving the present HEALER, CONDI/DPS-Hybrid meta a push towards the The Holy Trinity…

2nd to compensate for lost DOT and therefore DMG output and the consequest nerfing of ALL pure condition builds, and the introduction of Both condition and dmg resistant Bunkers I’d suggest:

• 1st:better DPS modifiers for condi weapons,
• 2nd: crits giving conditions dual proc so if a 3 bleeds spell procs 6 bleeds would be added. Crits based upon precision as normal
• dodges should no longer functional on condition procs (a.k.a conditions -> unblockable), only on the DPS part, so you can have dodges vs DPS and cleanses vs Conditions. making a condition cleanse mandatory from now on,
• Cleanses would likely require a rebalance of cleanses throughout the game.

So the meta will no longer be DPS (not functional vs true bunkers anyways) or Condi (nerfed to death now), but to Hybrid or Bunker and/or Healer (which is a trend which is obviously gaining popularity anyways) setting the structure in line with the Holy Trinity.

TL;DR
Changing the order of the application of conditin reduction from
old: (Base + Duration – Reduction)
e.g.( 100 % + 100 % – 45 = 155 )
to
new: (Base-Reduction) * (1 + ( Duration / 100 ))
e.g. (100 % – 45 % ) * 1+ (100 % / 100) =110%

would improve condition reduction a lot.

The loss of significant power from conditions would mean bunkers would gain a lot of viability, and the windows where condition builds would shine (killing of (semi)-bunker(s)) would be lost resulting in the introduction of a Hybrid(power/condi) vs Heal vs Bunker group (Holy Trinity). where I can foresee possibilities already for Bunkers with extreme Toughness, -45% condition reduction , Heal and condition dmg being unkillable.

I think ppl should consider the ramifications and consequences in the long run of such an overhaul well before saying :" YES! This is it!"

We’ll be fighting destroyers one day, they are burners… Imagine 5 stacks of burning on hit? And 10 on crit? Do you like that? and if tehre are 2 or 15 (think dragons stand with only Burns… (yes 1 condition clear would solve big problems,…. but 20+ burning will kill you before you can use it again!)

You bring up two points that actually should assuage your own fears.

1. Most people don’t run defense. So when you say that the protection reduces and then the armor itself and toughness and then traits and we whittle that 60k down quite a bit it is completely fine that it exists because no one runs it.

2. Your proposition is closer to the balance I am looking for. I am open to a huge spread of ideas but the notion of the bunker meta isn’t coming because it already is an option and people aren’t running it. Nomad’s exists. Dire exists. Sentinel’s exists. You could very well run Sentinel’s stats with condition reduction and so forth and be king of the world at current or Nomad’s or Dire but it isn’t done. In PvE if you were worried someone would be unkillable being new, don’t, that already exists in multiple low-damage high defense forms.

Also, I did say (because I knew it would come up) in PvP, that is the matches, this probably wouldn’t show up at all just like how Dire isn’t an option for an amulet and a few others. There are plenty of armor sets that are not options in PvP and so the pure bunker elements probably would never show up there to begin with.

So with the idea of a bunker meta – > trinity sort of not being viable just because of the player base I want to focus on your proposition. Honestly, I really do not mind how it is done whether it be multiplicative/divisive reduction as is armor or additive/direct reduction but my goal is simply to point out the glaring hole. I do know for a fact though that the developer, Anet, won’t build what you fear because there won’t be a meta to build that to (esp. with this game’s speedclear culture) and honestly most people will try to actively prevent the damage anyway so amassing 30 burns isn’t going to go over well in an event or if it does happen it will be due to running out of time or something.

That said in WvWvW it wouldn’t play out this way either since large zergs crush just about all in their wake regardless of your toughness or resistances; you can put up a nicer defense but you’re not going to beat 20 players all by your lonesome because of condition reduction or a bunch of armor. It does add some tactical flavor though for scouts or guards and such but that’s a totally different role issue.

Now, for the lost DoT, first you’re not losing DoT, it’s not a damage reduction, it’s a time reduction, and they are not the same. If you are taking a 1200 burn/s for X seconds you can have all the condition duration reduction you want you’re still taking 1200/s. The key thing here is that it prevents overly long duration instead of trying to terminate the duration of the effect so there would probably be a minimum of 1/s period, you couldn’t just “negate” the effect but most DoT builds run much, much longer attack stacks so it’s somewhat a non-issue and more of a direct counter to that particular build choice. The reason this matters is because as I said DoTs tend to be applied faster and their skills tend to have lower cooldowns or are just auto-attacks, some of which apply the deadliest conditions in the game relatively quickly and easily with little thought or participation.

The pressure itself is high so having 10 cleanses will get you somewhere but if the person can stack say 3 stacks of poison or burning a second, which isn’t impossible, you’re not going to outcleanse because you can’t attack while cleansing so you’re doing no damage and prolonging the inevitable. To that end I don’t think it would require much of an overhaul, if any at all, because cleanses remove conditions and this would only remove time from a condition.

I don’t think you’d need better modifiers either because it’s stack management instead of true negation so if a person had a 10s bleed and we reduced it by 5s it would now only be maxed out at 5s on you, this isn’t equivalent to evading the real brunt of the problem of multiple stacks. If you increase the condition damage values all you’re doing is negating reducing the time by compressing the damage in a shorter window. This ends up bringing about “The Problem of the 60,000 Damage” in which players who opt not to take this kind of reduction end up taking far, far more damage.

And finally doubling effects of condition placement due to critical strikes is just the above problem rewritten. You may as well double the base and coefficient. The issue there is that in PvE content has to be built around this and precision is easy to get. Too easy. So it would be, in my opinion, unnecessary. This would actually make it much more difficult to actually deal with conditions in general regardless of timer reduction because you do double the damage in half the time or quadruple the damage if there’s no counter-active play.

The objective is to reduce the effects of Expertise versus deplete condition damage itself so I don’t want anything to block your condition damage going in or the condition itself but instead just the timer because Expertise has no counter-play whatsoever. It is “too good” right now.

‘Sides, they’ve already removed other bunker category stat types from pvp, why would they bother adding another one when it’s clear they want a REDUCTION in bunker builds?

DGraves.3720:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Blocking works equally well against conditions, DGraves.

Blocking works against all damage, which is fine, but when considering direct damage versus condition damage consistent pressure is harder to counter with conditions than with with power. You block “the big move” with power but condition builds typically don’t run on “big moves” but instead small strings. This renders power type blocking less effective against condition type string attacks.

This is the way it should be. This is not a “problem”. As that condition player is applying that slow and steady pressure that builds up over time and it not as if you can do nothing in response. The power user still has the advantage of those big hard hitting attacks which will put the condition user on the defensive.

There a reason so many power builds do not go p/v/t. That is people learned long ago there an advantage to a person going for more damage in their attacks than taking more survival yet these people argue that a condition person using p/v/t has some sort of extreme advantage. This is illogical. Raw power builds still put out more damage than a condition build. If they can overcome a power build that uses soldiers , they can certainly do the same against a condition build using dire.

Now I have a power build that has 3k armor/19k health for a thief and this build is still able to pump out ~3K ~3K ~5k in wvw using the AA on a sword. It takes a condition thief a long time to get those condition ticks to pump out that sort of damage. That LONG time gives the power user more opportunity to spike his big damage attacks.

Now the counter to this would be “well that damage is against a low toughness build and conditions ignore toughness” but the response to that is Conditions never go higher just because of the toughness on an enemy. I have taken enemies down with a single true shot. No matter the toughness on an enemy a condition builders ticks do not go higher. There no 14k true shots or 18k gunflames in a single attack.

That is the essence of the difference between power damage and condition damage and I would rather see that difference than make them more the same with an “anti-condition stat” .

There are certain builds that can load a lot of conditions at once but those can be blocked or dodged. If the person you face in combat does not have those attacks that load all those conditions at once , than all of those blocks and dodges you have in your build to deal with the hard hitters are going to waste. Use them.

Again and to sum up the only real issue I have with conditions in the game is tied to specific builds/types that might be overtuned and this can be addressed without game wide changes to combat that will only serve to give a sameness to every build type.

DGraves.3720:

The wonderful thing about your comparison is you made my point for me. In order for me to even compare the two I have to ask you questions about the first, but not the second, because armor class (heavy, medium, and light), toughness, and damage reduction capabilities whether driven by traits or through the boon Protection all effect the lightning strikes but none of them effect the condition damage.

A heavily armored warrior may not even need to block depending on the build and boons. Then considering active defenses comes in and we have Endure Pain which allows conditions and CC through but no damage and then we get to the list of mitigating effects, one of which is food, which also doesn’t work against conditions.

So your 60,000 damage salvo presumes some value of armor and toughness, can be passively mitigated through traits depending on class and food, and honestly has an entire weapon (shield) dedicated to mitigation but almost every class has multiple access to blocks but not resistance.

The point, simply put, is that while every class has a decent amount in their pocket
against this 60,000 not every class has easy or reliable access to the same for the 30,000. This means that condition pressure, that is condition damage that can be applied over and over very rapidly (auto-attacks with quickness, for instance, or just really rapid auto-chains) is of greater effectiveness than power pressure at the moment.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

People claim to want balance but I doubt that is what they really want. What they actually want is to beat condition damage users.

Actually I made this because I am a condition damage user. Looking at some of my builds it’s feels tilted in my favor because of how much more defense I can take or defensive choices I can make in traits than I could in Power builds.

I would be ok with a condition reduction stat as long as it was balanced the same way as power damage. This would mean:

1. Removal of ALL condition cleanses from the game, there is no power equivalent so in order to maintain balance these must be removed.

Blocking.

2. Resistance boon must be changed to only block 20% of condition damage instead of 100% in order to match protection.

Protection actually is more effective because it reduces damage, resistance freezes effects. It doesn’t remove them. So for instance if you have a 30s bleed and 5s of resistance it becomes a 25s bleed but the bleed doesn’t “go away”. So stacking conditions against people with resistance still works which is why Expertise is so problematic. When you block an attack if it was worth 1 or 1.6 trillion it is all 0. If I slash you with a 12s bleed your 2s of resistance makes that bleed 10s but if it’s an auto-attack I’m still stacking them faster than you can resist them.

Oh geeze didn’t realize you started this thread… nvm i’m done here.

I highly suggest anyone who wants to continue this discussion first look at this users post history before wasting your time.

good luck….

babazhook.6805:

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This is the way it should be. This is not a “problem”. As that condition player is applying that slow and steady pressure that builds up over time and it not as if you can do nothing in response. The power user still has the advantage of those big hard hitting attacks which will put the condition user on the defensive.

There a reason so many power builds do not go p/v/t. That is people learned long ago there an advantage to a person going for more damage in their attacks than taking more survival yet these people argue that a condition person using p/v/t has some sort of extreme advantage. This is illogical. Raw power builds still put out more damage than a condition build. If they can overcome a power build that uses soldiers , they can certainly do the same against a condition build using dire.

Now I have a power build that has 3k armor/19k health for a thief and this build is still able to pump out ~3K ~3K ~5k in wvw using the AA on a sword. It takes a condition thief a long time to get those condition ticks to pump out that sort of damage. That LONG time gives the power user more opportunity to spike his big damage attacks.

Now the counter to this would be “well that damage is against a low toughness build and conditions ignore toughness” but the response to that is Conditions never go higher just because of the toughness on an enemy. I have taken enemies down with a single true shot. No matter the toughness on an enemy a condition builders ticks do not go higher. There no 14k true shots or 18k gunflames in a single attack.

That is the essence of the difference between power damage and condition damage and I would rather see that difference than make them more the same with an “anti-condition stat” .

There are certain builds that can load a lot of conditions at once but those can be blocked or dodged. If the person you face in combat does not have those attacks that load all those conditions at once , than all of those blocks and dodges you have in your build to deal with the hard hitters are going to waste. Use them.

Again and to sum up the only real issue I have with conditions in the game is tied to specific builds/types that might be overtuned and this can be addressed without game wide changes to combat that will only serve to give a sameness to every build type.

I don’t disagree with you. My concerns are not about reducing the damage of a condition tick nor am I saying that condition damage overrides direct damage. I am just saying that there is a lot less counterplay and as you’ve noted there are massive changes that allows for abuses but I don’t want to terminate the abuses themselves in stacking conditions so much as give players the option to at least defend themselves as they see fit against these clear and present threats.

It isn’t a question of suppression so much as it is liberty. At current you can have 155% condition duration and only 45% condition reduction. You cannot adequately defend against condition duration. That is my only issue. You can defend yourself against almost everything else in the game that a player can do and definitely everything related to core stats. When expertise became a core stat this oversight I believe needed addressing esp. with the changes to burning and poison, moreso poison because it still maintains it’s heal reduction which is the natural counter to stacking conditions to begin with. Or was.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Oh geeze didn’t realize you started this thread… nvm i’m done here.

I don’t know who you are. Apparently you do know who I am though.
I like this.

DGraves.3720:

babazhook.6805:

Show Spoiler

hide spoiler

This is the way it should be. This is not a “problem”. As that condition player is applying that slow and steady pressure that builds up over time and it not as if you can do nothing in response. The power user still has the advantage of those big hard hitting attacks which will put the condition user on the defensive.

There a reason so many power builds do not go p/v/t. That is people learned long ago there an advantage to a person going for more damage in their attacks than taking more survival yet these people argue that a condition person using p/v/t has some sort of extreme advantage. This is illogical. Raw power builds still put out more damage than a condition build. If they can overcome a power build that uses soldiers , they can certainly do the same against a condition build using dire.

Now I have a power build that has 3k armor/19k health for a thief and this build is still able to pump out ~3K ~3K ~5k in wvw using the AA on a sword. It takes a condition thief a long time to get those condition ticks to pump out that sort of damage. That LONG time gives the power user more opportunity to spike his big damage attacks.

Now the counter to this would be “well that damage is against a low toughness build and conditions ignore toughness” but the response to that is Conditions never go higher just because of the toughness on an enemy. I have taken enemies down with a single true shot. No matter the toughness on an enemy a condition builders ticks do not go higher. There no 14k true shots or 18k gunflames in a single attack.

That is the essence of the difference between power damage and condition damage and I would rather see that difference than make them more the same with an “anti-condition stat” .

There are certain builds that can load a lot of conditions at once but those can be blocked or dodged. If the person you face in combat does not have those attacks that load all those conditions at once , than all of those blocks and dodges you have in your build to deal with the hard hitters are going to waste. Use them.

Again and to sum up the only real issue I have with conditions in the game is tied to specific builds/types that might be overtuned and this can be addressed without game wide changes to combat that will only serve to give a sameness to every build type.

I don’t disagree with you. My concerns are not about reducing the damage of a condition tick nor am I saying that condition damage overrides direct damage. I am just saying that there is a lot less counterplay and as you’ve noted there are massive changes that allows for abuses but I don’t want to terminate the abuses themselves in stacking conditions so much as give players the option to at least defend themselves as they see fit against these clear and present threats.

It isn’t a question of suppression so much as it is liberty. At current you can have 155% condition duration and only 45% condition reduction. You cannot adequately defend against condition duration. That is my only issue. You can defend yourself against almost everything else in the game that a player can do and definitely everything related to core stats. When expertise became a core stat this oversight I believe needed addressing esp. with the changes to burning and poison, moreso poison because it still maintains it’s heal reduction which is the natural counter to stacking conditions to begin with. Or was.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Oh geeze didn’t realize you started this thread… nvm i’m done here.

I don’t know who you are. Apparently you do know who I am though.
I like this.

You can defend yourself against condition durations of 155 percent with a cleanse.

babazhook.6805:

DGraves.3720:

babazhook.6805:

Show Spoiler

hide spoiler

This is the way it should be. This is not a “problem”. As that condition player is applying that slow and steady pressure that builds up over time and it not as if you can do nothing in response. The power user still has the advantage of those big hard hitting attacks which will put the condition user on the defensive.

There a reason so many power builds do not go p/v/t. That is people learned long ago there an advantage to a person going for more damage in their attacks than taking more survival yet these people argue that a condition person using p/v/t has some sort of extreme advantage. This is illogical. Raw power builds still put out more damage than a condition build. If they can overcome a power build that uses soldiers , they can certainly do the same against a condition build using dire.

Now I have a power build that has 3k armor/19k health for a thief and this build is still able to pump out ~3K ~3K ~5k in wvw using the AA on a sword. It takes a condition thief a long time to get those condition ticks to pump out that sort of damage. That LONG time gives the power user more opportunity to spike his big damage attacks.

Now the counter to this would be “well that damage is against a low toughness build and conditions ignore toughness” but the response to that is Conditions never go higher just because of the toughness on an enemy. I have taken enemies down with a single true shot. No matter the toughness on an enemy a condition builders ticks do not go higher. There no 14k true shots or 18k gunflames in a single attack.

That is the essence of the difference between power damage and condition damage and I would rather see that difference than make them more the same with an “anti-condition stat” .

There are certain builds that can load a lot of conditions at once but those can be blocked or dodged. If the person you face in combat does not have those attacks that load all those conditions at once , than all of those blocks and dodges you have in your build to deal with the hard hitters are going to waste. Use them.

Again and to sum up the only real issue I have with conditions in the game is tied to specific builds/types that might be overtuned and this can be addressed without game wide changes to combat that will only serve to give a sameness to every build type.

I don’t disagree with you. My concerns are not about reducing the damage of a condition tick nor am I saying that condition damage overrides direct damage. I am just saying that there is a lot less counterplay and as you’ve noted there are massive changes that allows for abuses but I don’t want to terminate the abuses themselves in stacking conditions so much as give players the option to at least defend themselves as they see fit against these clear and present threats.

It isn’t a question of suppression so much as it is liberty. At current you can have 155% condition duration and only 45% condition reduction. You cannot adequately defend against condition duration. That is my only issue. You can defend yourself against almost everything else in the game that a player can do and definitely everything related to core stats. When expertise became a core stat this oversight I believe needed addressing esp. with the changes to burning and poison, moreso poison because it still maintains it’s heal reduction which is the natural counter to stacking conditions to begin with. Or was.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Oh geeze didn’t realize you started this thread… nvm i’m done here.

I don’t know who you are. Apparently you do know who I am though.
I like this.

You can defend yourself against condition durations of 155 percent with a cleanse.

TL;DR: The speed of application is great enough that traditional cleanses which were designed to work with only one primarily available stacking effect (bleeding) no longer function well with the new system however Expertise ensures that classic indirect defenses like vitality are rendered far, far weaker than normal because of the stacking effect.

Some mobs can inflict 3 conditions on 1 hit. Others inflict 3-5 stack of torment or confusion every 2-3 seconds. And they can do this long before you have enough skills, specializations, or runes and sigils to do anything about it.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but PVE mobs loading conditions on characters who have little or no way to keep removing them seems a little off to me….

And why exactly does burning work on an elementalist? Don’t elementalists generate fire from their hands? (Staff 1, guys!) Well, I guess it would be too much of an advantage if it didn’t.

EvilTwin.4125:

Some mobs can inflict 3 conditions on 1 hit. Others inflict 3-5 stack of torment or confusion every 2-3 seconds. And they can do this long before you have enough skills, specializations, or runes and sigils to do anything about it.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but PVE mobs loading conditions on characters who have little or no way to keep removing them seems a little off to me….

Sarcasm aside,

I would love to see more and more of that kind of play in PvE enemies. In most games, including this one it seems, for every defensive option you offer you get to ramp up the offensive capabilities of your monsters. That’s the fun of balance. People who complain that HoT enemies hit too hard are just experiencing the joy of the developer making toughness viable for passive defenses and for those who are good at active defenses they still don’t need toughness because they are playing the game as intended.

Now if only conditions would follow… But that’s another topic.