If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
Casual players and the community.
1 2
Video games in general are pretty ‘competitive’. And transversely, video gamers are also pretty ‘competitive’. I’m using the word ‘competitive’ very loosely here.
Just because the game doesn’t have a lot of competitive activities in PvE, doesn’t mean you won’t find competitive players in there. These ‘competitive’ PvE players, or ‘veteran players’, specifically advertises and looks for other ‘competitive’/‘veteran’ players. They reserve a small right to kitten on new players who enter their ‘exp’ LFGs.
Just like how, casual players who advertise for other casual players can call out kitteny competitive/veteran players that enter their LFGs.
Don’t force other players to play the way you want them to. Like minded players will attract other like minded players. Simple.
Casual game usually = casual community . shocking i know
You would think it would and yet, still, the hardcore types tend to act like they’re in charge and that there is something wrong with being a casual.
When, actually, if this is supposed to be a casual-friendly game, they are the ones who shouldn’t be here, if anyone shouldn’t.
…and I say this as someone who is not, necessarily, that casual.
Certainly in terms of the time I tend to put into a game.
But, I will never, ever, think like these people.
I didn’t in WoW and I won’t here.
Nobody said there’s something wrong with being casual. You can be casual. You can be the majority.
There’s something wrong with joining parties that don’t want you. There’s something wrong with being “casual” and attempting to play with people who aren’t and who don’t want to play with you.Just like it’s wrong to be “hardcore” and join casual runs and start telling everyone what you think they should do.
People should play with people of a similar mind.
I’d dare say there are less hardcore players joining casual runs and being terrible and annoying than there are casual players joining hardcore runs and ruining the fun for everybody.No, people can do what they like.
It’s their game, too.
I, personally, wouldn’t, as I don’t need the stress just to endure a criminally boring skip>stack>melee nightmare.
However, if other people want to, they can.
Unfortunately, the game then allows you to kick them, if you want, but they can still join what they like, whenever they like.
In fact, increasingly, having read some of these replies, I would encourage thick skinned people to join groups that exclude them.
This is usually what I imagine happens on the forums most of the time. I’ve played with good players, and not fitting min-maxing criteria doesn’t slow the game down by any considerable amount. I imagine that 9/10 players here who gripe about bad players need to be carried, since it’s apparently so inconvenient to run “normally.”
I will agree the effects exist. I will also urge you do run CoF P1 as a 5 man full zerker party and as a 5 man mixed party with tanky gear, healy gear and whatnot.
The difference is there.
I would also urge you to do most dungeons using the tried and tested skip, stack, los methods and then doing them without said methods. Again – I will ask you to compare results.
The truth is that the differences are there – I did dungeons before these methods were used and before people used zerk and know first hand you can do CoF P1 in 6 minutes and you can do it in 20.
It depends on your group, tactics and gear.
Also “considerable amount” is relative – 5 minutes might not be a big deal for you but they are for me.
I also dislike it when people don’t perform. Something about having to res somebody too many times or them falling behind or not knowing what to do ruins the experience for me.
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
Casual game usually = casual community . shocking i know
You would think it would and yet, still, the hardcore types tend to act like they’re in charge and that there is something wrong with being a casual.
When, actually, if this is supposed to be a casual-friendly game, they are the ones who shouldn’t be here, if anyone shouldn’t.
…and I say this as someone who is not, necessarily, that casual.
Certainly in terms of the time I tend to put into a game.
But, I will never, ever, think like these people.
I didn’t in WoW and I won’t here.
Nobody said there’s something wrong with being casual. You can be casual. You can be the majority.
There’s something wrong with joining parties that don’t want you. There’s something wrong with being “casual” and attempting to play with people who aren’t and who don’t want to play with you.Just like it’s wrong to be “hardcore” and join casual runs and start telling everyone what you think they should do.
People should play with people of a similar mind.
I’d dare say there are less hardcore players joining casual runs and being terrible and annoying than there are casual players joining hardcore runs and ruining the fun for everybody.No, people can do what they like.
It’s their game, too.
I, personally, wouldn’t, as I don’t need the stress just to endure a criminally boring skip>stack>melee nightmare.
However, if other people want to, they can.
Unfortunately, the game then allows you to kick them, if you want, but they can still join what they like, whenever they like.
In fact, increasingly, having read some of these replies, I would encourage thick skinned people to join groups that exclude them.
This is usually what I imagine happens on the forums most of the time. I’ve played with good players, and not fitting min-maxing criteria doesn’t slow the game down by any considerable amount. I imagine that 9/10 players here who gripe about bad players need to be carried, since it’s apparently so inconvenient to run “normally.”
Quite.
Either that or they’re goldsellers, or otherwise very greedy players, who only care about the gold per minute they can earn.
Certainly, the WoW EU forums appeared to be quite full of those kind of players, so I have no reason to think this would be different.
If you think about it, who would tend to hang around forums and fiercely defend a boring, but lucrative, playstyle?
Who would have most to lose, if it was changed?
“or otherwise very greedy players,” I guess i somewhat fall under this category. I value my game time and want to get the most out of it.
The problem is what you describe to be “boring but lucrative” I consider fun. Why? Because I have fun by getting stuff. By getting rewards. As many rewards as possible and as fast as possible. That’s my fun in this game.
I have fun by doing things fast, efficiently and without problems.
So what you might consider " boring " might actually be someone else’s source of enjoyment in the game.
Also this thread is not about defending a certain play style. I’m not here to defend or say that one play style is better than another.
I’m here defending people’s right to play with whomever and however they want. Something you want as well but only when it suits you and works in your favor.
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
3) it is not rude to point people to wikis/guides/videos/forum posts rather than try to painfully chat about something for 20 mins to help explain something. There is no reason a player should have to explain something for the 50th time if somewhere else has it explained. The person may find it rude they are not taking the time to explain it to them personally in great detail – but honestly a guide may be a much better place to start.
Example:
You don’t take a car apart to repair it without reading a manual first or at least a manual to rebuild it. You could end up with a very expensive mess otherwise and never able to put it back together again. In other words searching external help is a good thing to help you accomplish your task. It is not a failure of the game if there are not enough hints in game.Well no, pointing to guides and wikis isn’t rude. However, I wouldn’t say a game is a failure if you have to do that, but it IS badly designed. Here’s a cool/funny video about game design and the player by a youtuber named Egoraptor:
There is a difference between learning secrets and easter eggs and fundamental gameplay needing to be taught. Practically no encounter, IMO, needs a 20min description to educate the player and can be solved with a bit of trial and error on the player’s part. Gameplay becomes more satisfying outside of a guide when it’s designed to be played as such and GW2 is one of those game.
The problem comes when you try to play with people that have no room for “trial and error” – sure you can learn an encounter by trying it over and over again but for most experienced players those days have long gone.
We did our trial and had our errors. Two and a half years ago. And we want to play with people that have done the same – did their part and can now play it flawlessly.
If you want to learn the game from the game and by repeated trial and error – you’re free to do so with people that also want the same thing.
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
No, people can do what they like.
It’s their game, too.
I, personally, wouldn’t, as I don’t need the stress just to endure a criminally boring skip>stack>melee nightmare.
However, if other people want to, they can.
Unfortunately, the game then allows you to kick them, if you want, but they can still join what they like, whenever they like.
In fact, increasingly, having read some of these replies, I would encourage thick skinned people to join groups that exclude them.
Previously, I might have said “avoid them”, but at this point, I think it would be more fun if they didn’t.
Possibly, the most fun anyone can currently have in group PVE, in this game, in fact.
So basically the casual “thick skinned” people should join groups that ask for experience in certain dungeons while they know that they have no clue how to do it… just to have some “fun” at the expense of the “evil elitist dungeoneers”?
Yes, that just about sums up my current position.
I’m sick of this “just leave the pros alone to exclude the noobs” attitude.
If you want a game to have a future, you have to let new players join and have fun learning for themselves.
You have to allow for that and if you are, truly, pro (and not just trying to maximise profits) it should be no problem to do so.
If you don’t, or if you insist on trying to force them into a boring, pre-set mould, a lot will just give up and leave and the game will (eventually) die.
Previously, my position was to just leave selfish people to do what they liked, but at this point I am sick to death of the attitude that kind of acceptance has bred, so I would encourage the disruption of it.
People clearly need a little shaking up, in this game – both the devs and some of the players.
Some of you are way too smug and comfortable.
“Turns out when people play the game, they don’t admire your feet at all.” sephiroth
(edited by Tigaseye.2047)
3) it is not rude to point people to wikis/guides/videos/forum posts rather than try to painfully chat about something for 20 mins to help explain something. There is no reason a player should have to explain something for the 50th time if somewhere else has it explained. The person may find it rude they are not taking the time to explain it to them personally in great detail – but honestly a guide may be a much better place to start.
Example:
You don’t take a car apart to repair it without reading a manual first or at least a manual to rebuild it. You could end up with a very expensive mess otherwise and never able to put it back together again. In other words searching external help is a good thing to help you accomplish your task. It is not a failure of the game if there are not enough hints in game.Well no, pointing to guides and wikis isn’t rude. However, I wouldn’t say a game is a failure if you have to do that, but it IS badly designed. Here’s a cool/funny video about game design and the player by a youtuber named Egoraptor:
There is a difference between learning secrets and easter eggs and fundamental gameplay needing to be taught. Practically no encounter, IMO, needs a 20min description to educate the player and can be solved with a bit of trial and error on the player’s part. Gameplay becomes more satisfying outside of a guide when it’s designed to be played as such and GW2 is one of those game.
The problem comes when you try to play with people that have no room for “trial and error” – sure you can learn an encounter by trying it over and over again but for most experienced players those days have long gone.
We did our trial and had our errors. Two and a half years ago. And we want to play with people that have done the same – did their part and can now play it flawlessly.
If you want to learn the game from the game and by repeated trial and error – you’re free to do so with people that also want the same thing.
The only thing I could tell you is to get a guild and stop complaining. The more vocal you are about your preferences, the more vocal people that don’t agree with you will be.
Casual game usually = casual community . shocking i know
You would think it would and yet, still, the hardcore types tend to act like they’re in charge and that there is something wrong with being a casual.
When, actually, if this is supposed to be a casual-friendly game, they are the ones who shouldn’t be here, if anyone shouldn’t.
…and I say this as someone who is not, necessarily, that casual.
Certainly in terms of the time I tend to put into a game.
But, I will never, ever, think like these people.
I didn’t in WoW and I won’t here.
Nobody said there’s something wrong with being casual. You can be casual. You can be the majority.
There’s something wrong with joining parties that don’t want you. There’s something wrong with being “casual” and attempting to play with people who aren’t and who don’t want to play with you.Just like it’s wrong to be “hardcore” and join casual runs and start telling everyone what you think they should do.
People should play with people of a similar mind.
I’d dare say there are less hardcore players joining casual runs and being terrible and annoying than there are casual players joining hardcore runs and ruining the fun for everybody.No, people can do what they like.
It’s their game, too.
I, personally, wouldn’t, as I don’t need the stress just to endure a criminally boring skip>stack>melee nightmare.
However, if other people want to, they can.
Unfortunately, the game then allows you to kick them, if you want, but they can still join what they like, whenever they like.
In fact, increasingly, having read some of these replies, I would encourage thick skinned people to join groups that exclude them.
This is usually what I imagine happens on the forums most of the time. I’ve played with good players, and not fitting min-maxing criteria doesn’t slow the game down by any considerable amount. I imagine that 9/10 players here who gripe about bad players need to be carried, since it’s apparently so inconvenient to run “normally.”
Quite.
Either that or they’re goldsellers, or otherwise very greedy players, who only care about the gold per minute they can earn.
Certainly, the WoW EU forums appeared to be quite full of those kind of players, so I have no reason to think this would be different.
If you think about it, who would tend to hang around forums and fiercely defend a boring, but lucrative, playstyle?
Who would have most to lose, if it was changed?
“or otherwise very greedy players,” I guess i somewhat fall under this category. I value my game time and want to get the most out of it.
The problem is what you describe to be “boring but lucrative” I consider fun. Why? Because I have fun by getting stuff. By getting rewards. As many rewards as possible and as fast as possible. That’s my fun in this game.I have fun by doing things fast, efficiently and without problems.
So what you might consider " boring " might actually be someone else’s source of enjoyment in the game.Also this thread is not about defending a certain play style. I’m not here to defend or say that one play style is better than another.
I’m here defending people’s right to play with whomever and however they want. Something you want as well but only when it suits you and works in your favor.
The phrase you are looking for, to describe yourself, is utterly selfish.
Selfishness should never be encouraged, or rewarded; especially in a group situation (like an MMO).
That is why you should be disrupted.
Ideally that would be by the game devs, realising the issues they have created and dealing with them in a timely fashion; but it would appear that they are in some sort of deep state of denial, lack the ability to deal with it and/or can’t be bothered.
“Turns out when people play the game, they don’t admire your feet at all.” sephiroth
Yes, that just about sums up my current position.
I’m sick of this “just leave the pros alone to exclude the noobs” attitude.
If you want a game to have a future, you have to let new players join and have fun learning for themselves.
And that’s where groups like mine (All welcome, teaching etc.), guilds like mine (welcome new players and help them as we can), guilds like [NOOB] ( https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Dungeon-Mentors-Noob/first#post3492401 ) and people like Sarahfull (teaches Fractals if you ask nicely) come in.
This weekend I saw a post for CM “P1 newer players” and joined to help them out. Was quite a funny run (that could have been cos I was a little tipsy at that point though), but we got through it ok and people seemed happy.
You have to allow for that and if you are, truly, pro (and not just trying to maximise profits) it should be no problem to do so.
If you don’t, or if you insist on trying to force them into a boring, pre-set mould, a lot will just give up and leave and the game will (eventually) die.
See point above about [NOOB] and the people that set it up/run it.
But honestly it’s not that hard to make your own LFG’s, join like minded guilds and enjoy the game the way you like.
I will never run with someone like Harper simply because I have different views to him. If he ever joins my runs I will kick him out exactly the same as if I joined his. And that’s not a problem. It’s associating with people that are like minded and people I want to spend time with. Works exactly the same way in real life. If I dislike someone’s view points/hobbies etc. I won’t hang out with them and I wouldn’t want them to hang around with me.
[BAD] a casual PvE guild on Aurora Glade.
http://bad-eu.guildlaunch.com
The Family Deuce. Asuran Adventure Specialists.
http://bad-eu.guildlaunch.com
The Family Deuce. Asuran Adventure Specialists.
^ That’s all very well (and I do get where you’re coming from), but we have left certain people to “just get on with their selfish, evil ways” IRL, as well and look where that has got us.
At some point, you have to stand up and say “No more.”.
…and I know this is “just” a game, but it suffers from the same kind of issues, as happen IRL, sadly.
These kind of people cause issues, like this, wherever they go.
“Bad things happen when good men do nothing.”
“Turns out when people play the game, they don’t admire your feet at all.” sephiroth
(edited by Tigaseye.2047)
I’m sick of this “just leave the pros alone to exclude the noobs” attitude.
If you want a game to have a future, you have to let new players join and have fun learning for themselves.
You have to allow for that and if you are, truly, pro (and not just trying to maximise profits) it should be no problem to do so.
If you don’t, or if you insist on trying to force them into a boring, pre-set mould, a lot will just give up and leave and the game will (eventually) die.
Previously, my position was to just leave selfish people to do what they liked, but at this point I am sick to death of the attitude that kind of acceptance has bred, so I would encourage the disruption of it.
People clearly need a little shaking up, in this game – both the devs and some of the players.
Some of you are way too smug and comfortable.
Why smug and comfortable? When did people sign any documents about explaining a dungeon to others? Sure, there are cases when you do that. There are also cases when you just want to get it done as soon as possible.
What you are proposing is not going to help the game at all. Let me tell you why.
If you have people in your party who are clearly new to a place, then you have three options, leave, kick them or stay and try to show them how to do the dungeon.
Let’s say you decide to stay and then you try to explain how to do certain things. It’s all fine but what happens if you happen to have one or two people in your team who do not listen? A fitting example would be coe p1, hacking… Sure, you can kill every elite wave but optimally you would want to do it in one go or at least using the good old 1-4 method. But what happens if someone does not listen and just hacks the security console all the time? You can still laugh it off and kill all the waves, others might just leave, or leave after p1. Then you still have Bjarl to deal with and he has to hit his head on the pillars…
So what happens then? You have a bunch of “elitists” who will think twice next time before pugging, they’ll team up with each other. You also have a bunch of casuals who had no clue what happened, why they were kicked, or why others left. They think that dungeons are hard, take long, and that the community is bad because of this behavior.
I remember back when the game came out and nobody knew how to do any dungeon. Figuring out what to do with that one-shotting guy (Lupicus) for 3 hours straight before the instance owner had to leave. I would think that the elitists perform an invaluable service already by figuring out how to clear dungeons the most efficient way (this we can modify to have fun with our classes, not necessarily copying their setups all the time).
Compared to launch, the new people now have it so much easier thanks to the “elitists”.
^ That’s all very well (and I do get where you’re coming from), but we have left certain people to “just get on with their selfish, evil ways” IRL, as well and look where that has got us.
At some point, you have to stand up and say “No more.”.
…and I know this is “just” a game, but it suffers from the same kind of issues, as happen IRL, sadly.
These kind of people cause issues, like this, wherever they go.
“Bad things happen when good men do nothing.”
Joining their groups and getting kicked will do absolutely nothing other than waste your time though. If they kick you because you’re joining their groups to be an annoyance then you can’t report them for LFG abuse, and if you do nothing will happen, worst case you’ll be the one to get punished for persistently annoying them/false reports.
And this is less of a good men/bad men scenario more of an opposing political stance. Democrats and Republicans. Labour and Conservatives. Both work in the same system they just very rarely see eye to eye.
[BAD] a casual PvE guild on Aurora Glade.
http://bad-eu.guildlaunch.com
The Family Deuce. Asuran Adventure Specialists.
http://bad-eu.guildlaunch.com
The Family Deuce. Asuran Adventure Specialists.
serenke:
Obviously, it can be a good thing if an experienced player knows how to defeat a certain boss, but that is different from a lecture-like training session on exactly how (and where) to skip>stack>melee, choose a class, build it, gear it, choose abilities for it etc..
Of course, many all-new player groups will fail/take a long time to complete an instance, but that is why it is (in theory) often quite good to have a mixture of differently experienced players.
As long as the “pros” don’t try to suck all the fun out of the learning experience, entirely, by dictating all terms, constantly.
As I have said a lot on this forum, most of this is the devs’ fault; not the players’.
As they have (quite possibly, unintentionally) managed to make a game where its very design positively encourages people to play in a very reductionist way.
But, even then, it doesn’t make it OK for the experienced players to insist that all the new players reach that level of boredom, immediately and it certainly doesn’t make it alright for some of them to refuse to associate with “noobs”, at all.
This is an MMO, not a single player (or private group) game, it is supposed to be a social experience.
We are supposed to support other players, whether they are new, or not.
If someone is the kind of person who simply doesn’t have any of that nurturing ability, they shouldn’t be playing a game like this, because they are just a gold farmer (and/or seller) and are of no practical use to anyone else in the community (apart from other gold farmers and/or sellers), or the game.
…and in fact, they are a detriment to the community and the game, as they actively make new players feel unhappy and unwanted (via their words and/or their actions).
I realised all this, in WoW – I never treated new players there badly, kicked them, or criticised their methods.
I let them learn on their own, unless they specifically asked something.
If people can’t do that, I will say again that they should simply not be allowed to play an MMO, as they do far more harm than good and contribute nothing of any worth.
Obviously, I think it’s highly unlikely that anyone will bother to stop them, but still.
“Turns out when people play the game, they don’t admire your feet at all.” sephiroth
(edited by Tigaseye.2047)
This is why PROS and PHIWs dont mix.
PHIWs – must realise they want to improve there game and get fed up from their own inexperience and step up there game.
Some people may find it ‘fun’ making every mistake in the book – and learning for themselves. Imagine learning a new language without going to a teacher and calling the most beautiful person you have met something absolutly horible as you ‘learnt’ for yourself and failed to get taught.
You’re free to PHIW – but seriously its not the devs fault or the players fault – everything will always be boiled down to a more specific method to speed things up.
Its not wrong to offer advice – if a run is going badly and its obvious people are playing really badly to change things up. If you’re spending twenty mins on a boss and still not killing him – something has to change.
Often new players will have three reactions:
1) GET LOST – I dont want to learn – I will kick you if you try to tell me how to do something. I dont want to be told what to do – I have enough of that from work/parents/school (insert any other excuse) for being a kitten .
2) Silently think thank-you !! I was too embarassed to ask how to improve and wont say anything but be releived they finally got past x,y,z.
3) Ask in chat – what can we do differently to defeat x,yz, what we’re doing now isnt working.
Unfortunatly I see more of type (1) than (3) – and plenty of (2)’s.
Its absolutly fine for pros to refuse to play with noobs !
— This happens in all walks of life. You dont play grandmaster chess players vs a noob (As the grandmaster learns nothing and the noob just gets defeated).
Why do you think forcing people with different levels of skills results in harmony or should be mandatory is beyond me.
[MYTH] The Mythical Dragons -PvX http://mythdragons.enjin.com
^ If you’re seeing more (1)s than the other two options, that should tell you something about human psychology.
It should tell you that you may be approaching things in the wrong way.
Once again, this is NOT a job, or even a tool in life (like a language).
This is a GAME.
As such, the learning experience is supposed to be the fun part, before the monotony of grinding sets in.
Stop ruining people’s fun and only tell them stuff they really need to know (as in the occasional vital tip, if they fail something a few times), or specifically ask you and you will get a lot more (2)s and (3)s.
Seriously, this isn’t rocket science, guys…
“Turns out when people play the game, they don’t admire your feet at all.” sephiroth
(edited by Tigaseye.2047)
Well it seems as if all of you are talking about specific things you’ve encountered in the past but it’s not the same situation, so basically all of you are right, or better:This discussion is pretty useless as not all noobs are saints and not all vets are devils or the other way around.
No what I’m seeing is PHIWs being extremly rude.
You’re telling us how to play tigaseye and quite frankly – I will PHIW and you PHYW – problem solved.
Knowing how to play a class properly is exactly like a tool in life – anyone can spam 1 !
(Well some people cant even do that properly – but thats besides the point).
[MYTH] The Mythical Dragons -PvX http://mythdragons.enjin.com
Casual game usually = casual community . shocking i know
You would think it would and yet, still, the hardcore types tend to act like they’re in charge and that there is something wrong with being a casual.
When, actually, if this is supposed to be a casual-friendly game, they are the ones who shouldn’t be here, if anyone shouldn’t.
…and I say this as someone who is not, necessarily, that casual.
Certainly in terms of the time I tend to put into a game.
But, I will never, ever, think like these people.
I didn’t in WoW and I won’t here.
Nobody said there’s something wrong with being casual. You can be casual. You can be the majority.
There’s something wrong with joining parties that don’t want you. There’s something wrong with being “casual” and attempting to play with people who aren’t and who don’t want to play with you.Just like it’s wrong to be “hardcore” and join casual runs and start telling everyone what you think they should do.
People should play with people of a similar mind.
I’d dare say there are less hardcore players joining casual runs and being terrible and annoying than there are casual players joining hardcore runs and ruining the fun for everybody.No, people can do what they like.
It’s their game, too.
I, personally, wouldn’t, as I don’t need the stress just to endure a criminally boring skip>stack>melee nightmare.
However, if other people want to, they can.
Unfortunately, the game then allows you to kick them, if you want, but they can still join what they like, whenever they like.
In fact, increasingly, having read some of these replies, I would encourage thick skinned people to join groups that exclude them.
This is usually what I imagine happens on the forums most of the time. I’ve played with good players, and not fitting min-maxing criteria doesn’t slow the game down by any considerable amount. I imagine that 9/10 players here who gripe about bad players need to be carried, since it’s apparently so inconvenient to run “normally.”
Quite.
Either that or they’re goldsellers, or otherwise very greedy players, who only care about the gold per minute they can earn.
Certainly, the WoW EU forums appeared to be quite full of those kind of players, so I have no reason to think this would be different.
If you think about it, who would tend to hang around forums and fiercely defend a boring, but lucrative, playstyle?
Who would have most to lose, if it was changed?
“or otherwise very greedy players,” I guess i somewhat fall under this category. I value my game time and want to get the most out of it.
The problem is what you describe to be “boring but lucrative” I consider fun. Why? Because I have fun by getting stuff. By getting rewards. As many rewards as possible and as fast as possible. That’s my fun in this game.I have fun by doing things fast, efficiently and without problems.
So what you might consider " boring " might actually be someone else’s source of enjoyment in the game.Also this thread is not about defending a certain play style. I’m not here to defend or say that one play style is better than another.
I’m here defending people’s right to play with whomever and however they want. Something you want as well but only when it suits you and works in your favor.
The phrase you are looking for, to describe yourself, is utterly selfish.
Selfishness should never be encouraged, or rewarded; especially in a group situation (like an MMO).
That is why you should be disrupted.
Ideally that would be by the game devs, realising the issues they have created and dealing with them in a timely fashion; but it would appear that they are in some sort of deep state of denial, lack the ability to deal with it and/or can’t be bothered.
Then why are you the one encouraging selfish behavior?
He is suggesting that everyone be allowed to play how they want while you are suggesting that people selfishly impose their preferences on others, denying anyone but themselves the ability to enjoy the game as they see fit.
Just because the game is designed to be casual friendly doesn’t mean the veteran players have to be casual friendly. Being friendly and nice towards a group of players is a choice.
Some people choose to be friendly and help casuals. I usually just avoid them every chance I get.
Players that expect the game to give them all the info they need to play are perfectly fine – but they shouldn’t expect people who take their performance and execution seriously to give them the time of day.
If you can’t bother to watch a 10 minute guide on the dungeon run you’re about do to – I can’t bother to carry you through it.
Players need to realize that the path to self-improvement comes from within.
If you can’t bother to be kind, I can’t bother to treat you with respect or disregard.
The path to snack pack throwing begins with this kind of jargon.
See? I can deploy euphemisms as a “point” too.
And this is exactly why you and me should never play together in GW2.
I don’t play this game to have a sandbox environment of niceness and patting each other’s back. I play it to get stuff done.You play this game for completely different reasons than I do and because we have different objectives and means we should most likely never associate.
Now I will never join your party and tell you what to do or how to play – so please – live and let live and never join mine.
I urge you to find better time management if 5 minutes is an appreciable amount of time for you.
I urge you to notice that a player will perform best in gear they’re comfortable with.
I urge you to compare the results of playing with good players, regardless of their gear, versus bad players in zerker.
It’s so easy to turn these euphemisms around.
..anyone can spam 1 !
(Well some people cant even do that properly – but thats besides the point).
True, I can’t at the moment as my mouse is broken (thumb buttons) – you have no idea how important #1 is =(
Just because the game is designed to be casual friendly doesn’t mean the veteran players have to be casual friendly. Being friendly and nice towards a group of players is a choice.
Some people choose to be friendly and help casuals. I usually just avoid them every chance I get.
Players that expect the game to give them all the info they need to play are perfectly fine – but they shouldn’t expect people who take their performance and execution seriously to give them the time of day.
If you can’t bother to watch a 10 minute guide on the dungeon run you’re about do to – I can’t bother to carry you through it.
Players need to realize that the path to self-improvement comes from within.
If you can’t bother to be kind, I can’t bother to treat you with respect or disregard.
The path to snack pack throwing begins with this kind of jargon.
See? I can deploy euphemisms as a “point” too.
And this is exactly why you and me should never play together in GW2.
I don’t play this game to have a sandbox environment of niceness and patting each other’s back. I play it to get stuff done.You play this game for completely different reasons than I do and because we have different objectives and means we should most likely never associate.
Now I will never join your party and tell you what to do or how to play – so please – live and let live and never join mine.
I urge you to find better time management if 5 minutes is an appreciable amount of time for you.
I urge you to notice that a player will perform best in gear they’re comfortable with.
I urge you to compare the results of playing with good players, regardless of their gear, versus bad players in zerker.
It’s so easy to turn these euphemisms around.
Different people have fun in different ways. Urging people to not have fun in a game they are playing is probably not a good idea.
Accomplishing objectives as fast/efficient as possible, regardless of the exact time difference is enjoyable for some people. Shaving even fractions of a second off of a personal best time can be a fun achievement for such people. If such doesnt matter to you that is perfectly fine. Play how you want….and let others do the same.
I urge you to notice that a player will perform best in gear they’re comfortable with.
I urge you to compare the results of playing with good players, regardless of their gear, versus bad players in zerker.
Not really true, we have someone in our guild who loves to heal people and he’s usually down 80% of the time. Last time we were doing a dungeon he asked whether we’d prefer him as a healer or dps guy, so we said “dps” and it worked a lot better than usual. We carry him around as a healer though anyway because we like him a lot.
I’m not really against elitists playing with elitists but shucks…if it makes that big of a difference in someone’s life, I don’t put much stock in your life (or your opinions, for that matter). Why someone like @Tigaseye would be comfortable with imposing a different value system is absurd. Snack pack throwers deserve our sympathy, not our scorn.
Different people have fun in different ways. Urging people to not have fun in a game they are playing is probably not a good idea.
If someone’s idea of having fun is to exclude other people they deem less worthy, then they shouldn’t play an MMO.
Or, they should only play it in a totally private (i.e. invisible) way, with a group of pre-selected friends (i.e. they shouldn’t list, or join listed, groups).
Otherwise, they risk putting off the next generation of players and that is not OK for the future of gaming.
Of course, once again, the main problem lies with the design of the game.
In other games, you simply cant write what you do and don’t want, in a list for dungeons.
You have to take what you’re given.
Then, you may be able to kick, or (more likely) you may leave, but you can’t just deign to never associate with “noobs” in dungeons; unless you only ever make your own premade groups.
Then why are you the one encouraging selfish behavior?
Because, sometimes, you have to fight fire with fire.
I recommend being a nice person to nice people, only.
Unpleasant people think they can win, in life, due to the fact that “nice” people have no choice but to be nice, all the time.
They are wrong.
Knowing how to play a class properly is exactly like a tool in life – anyone can spam 1 !
(Well some people cant even do that properly – but thats besides the point).
We’re not talking about spamming 1, here.
Or in fact, we are, because that is pretty much the advice you are constantly given by “pros” in dungeons.
Stack in one place, constantly, equip a melee weap and (basically) do little more than spam 1.
…and no, it’s not a tool in life, it’s a tool in a game.
A game – as in, a completely pointless (other than to have pointless fun) leisure activity.
“Turns out when people play the game, they don’t admire your feet at all.” sephiroth
(edited by Tigaseye.2047)
I’m not really against elitists playing with elitists but shucks…if it makes that big of a difference in someone’s life, I don’t put much stock in your life (or your opinions, for that matter). Why someone like @Tigaseye would be comfortable with imposing a different value system is absurd. Snack pack throwers deserve our sympathy, not our scorn.
I dont take this game seriously enough to worry about shaving time off of a dungeon run either. But there is no more inherent value in trying to get one’s time for a mile run down to four minutes than there is for doing the same for a dungeon path in GW2. I personally wouldnt call someone out for trying to do the former nor would I suggest that others purposefully attempt to prevent them from succeeding.
I urge you to notice that a player will perform best in gear they’re comfortable with.
I urge you to compare the results of playing with good players, regardless of their gear, versus bad players in zerker.
Not really true, we have someone in our guild who loves to heal people and he’s usually down 80% of the time. Last time we were doing a dungeon he asked whether we’d prefer him as a healer or dps guy, so we said “dps” and it worked a lot better than usual. We carry him around as a healer though anyway because we like him a lot.
It would probably work better if there was such a thing as a healer. Water ele != healer. Support, as a convention, has been completely destroyed in GW2. You don’t have to wear zerker gear to imply DPS, the skillbar is more important. Still, I’m sure many, like him, would have preferred to have larger support roles. I know one of my favorite builds in GW1 was a weapon spell ritualist – very easy to combine Splinter and GDW on 2-3 frontliners in a dungeon to kill every mob with a single attack chain.
I’m not really against elitists playing with elitists but shucks…if it makes that big of a difference in someone’s life, I don’t put much stock in your life (or your opinions, for that matter). Why someone like @Tigaseye would be comfortable with imposing a different value system is absurd. Snack pack throwers deserve our sympathy, not our scorn.
I dont take this game seriously enough to worry about shaving time off of a dungeon run either. But there is no more inherent value in trying to get one’s time for a mile run down to four minutes than there is for doing the same for a dungeon path in GW2. I personally wouldnt call someone out for trying to do the former nor would I suggest that others purposefully attempt to prevent them from succeeding.
The difference between a 10 minute mile run (lol four-minute mile, that’s a goal but a four-minute mile is like the highest standard of professional runners) and GW2 is pretty simple: Athletics are an accomplishment, video games aren’t. I can’t take someone’s opinion seriously if they’re deluded enough to think that video games are, or can be, an accomplishment.
Because here’s the simple reality: video game achievements are illusory. Accomplishments in a video game are narrow, specific and non-transferable. Any comparison is disingenuous.
(edited by Cuddy.6247)
3) it is not rude to point people to wikis/guides/videos/forum posts rather than try to painfully chat about something for 20 mins to help explain something. There is no reason a player should have to explain something for the 50th time if somewhere else has it explained. The person may find it rude they are not taking the time to explain it to them personally in great detail – but honestly a guide may be a much better place to start.
Example:
You don’t take a car apart to repair it without reading a manual first or at least a manual to rebuild it. You could end up with a very expensive mess otherwise and never able to put it back together again. In other words searching external help is a good thing to help you accomplish your task. It is not a failure of the game if there are not enough hints in game.Well no, pointing to guides and wikis isn’t rude. However, I wouldn’t say a game is a failure if you have to do that, but it IS badly designed. Here’s a cool/funny video about game design and the player by a youtuber named Egoraptor:
There is a difference between learning secrets and easter eggs and fundamental gameplay needing to be taught. Practically no encounter, IMO, needs a 20min description to educate the player and can be solved with a bit of trial and error on the player’s part. Gameplay becomes more satisfying outside of a guide when it’s designed to be played as such and GW2 is one of those game.
So you’re comparing gw2 to a game with 2 basic actions: jump;shoot. This explains a lot tbh.
Co-Leader of The Mythical Dragons [MYTH],
Advocate of learning and being a useful party member.
http://mythdragons.enjin.com/recruitment
Advocate of learning and being a useful party member.
http://mythdragons.enjin.com/recruitment
Different people have fun in different ways. Urging people to not have fun in a game they are playing is probably not a good idea.
If someone’s idea of having fun is to exclude other people they deem less worthy, then they shouldn’t play an MMO.
Or, they should only play it in a totally private (i.e. invisible) way, with a group of pre-selected friends (i.e. they shouldn’t list, or join listed, groups).
Otherwise, they risk putting off the next generation of players and that is not OK for the future of gaming.
Their idea of fun is not excluding other people. Its playing efficiently and achieving certain objectives. People have different playstyles. They will enjoy different things. That is just how things work.
If A couple of friends and I decide that we want to use an AC dungeon run as part of a RP event that has the potential to cause the dungeon run to take a couple of hours due to stopping for RP chat frequently, would it bother you (assuming it was your party we joined) if you have only half that amouunt of time available to play?
If I had a button that allowed me to reduce your chance of getting a particular reward that you are interested in wod it bother you if I pressed it because doing so was fun for me?
People working out a meta, the fastest approaches, most efficient builds, and using them does not seem as harmful as you are claiming. If it were then there would not be a sufficiently significant number of players taking that approach to negatively impact those who dont choose to play that way. The only way that said playstyle could prevent others from playing as they see fit is if the vast majority of players were choosing to focus on efficient play. If the vast majority prefers that playstyle then removing that playstyle would not be better for the player base as a whole.
…and no, it’s no a tool in life, it’s a tool in a game.
A game – as in, a completely pointless (other than to have pointless fun) leisure activity.
What? I thought I was refining my skills to enchant my coworkers with Aegis if a shooter decides to rob us. Are you telling me this isn’t true?
Ashen, I wouldn’t play a game like this if I didn’t have a reasonable amount of time.
I would consider it totally inconsiderate to try to impose my small amount of free time on other players.
I would just have to leave mid dungeon, or go play a single player game, or play elements of the game where I could leave at any time, if I only had a very small amount of time to spare.
I wouldn’t try to make everyone else fit into my time constraints.
Of course I would care if someone, intentionally, tried to deprive me of something by pressing a button, but that is not the same, at all.
Newer players, or players who want to play in a more interesting (less utterly boring) way aren’t intentionally depriving you of anything.
They are just trying to enjoy the game they (probably mistakenly, as it turns out) bought.
“Turns out when people play the game, they don’t admire your feet at all.” sephiroth
^ If you’re seeing more (1)s than the other two options, that should tell you something about human psychology.
It should tell you that you may be approaching things in the wrong way.
Once again, this is NOT a job, or even a tool in life (like a language).
This is a GAME.
As such, the learning experience is supposed to be the fun part, before the monotony of grinding sets in.
Stop ruining people’s fun and only tell them stuff they really need to know (as in the occasional vital tip, if they fail something a few times), or specifically ask you and you will get a lot more (2)s and (3)s.
Seriously, this isn’t rocket science, guys…
Gw2 is a game with a very long learning curve.
Having a good build, reading or watching a guide is only the beginning of that curve.
Learning to then execute what you’ve learnt takes some people dozens of tries.
Then factor is there is 7 dungeons with 3 explorable paths, and 1 with 4 paths. Each path has some different fights/mechanics/requirements. Getting a decent baseline build, then learning what skills/traits/weapons you need to bring for each still leaves you 90% of the learning curve. It just makes that 90% a bit less frustrating for everyone else who has you in their group.
Co-Leader of The Mythical Dragons [MYTH],
Advocate of learning and being a useful party member.
http://mythdragons.enjin.com/recruitment
Advocate of learning and being a useful party member.
http://mythdragons.enjin.com/recruitment
It would probably work better if there was such a thing as a healer. Water ele != healer. Support, as a convention, has been completely destroyed in GW2. You don’t have to wear zerker gear to imply DPS, the skillbar is more important. Still, I’m sure many, like him, would have preferred to have larger support roles. I know one of my favorite builds in GW1 was a weapon spell ritualist – very easy to combine Splinter and GDW on 2-3 frontliners in a dungeon to kill every mob with a single attack chain.
I know but GW2 is not the game for healers or tanks, btw he’s not an ele. And my pure dps helps a lot. The aegis from guards helps as well though. So basically the roles in this game are still there but they’re different from what people are used to. But saying that someone performs best in teh gear he’s comfortable with is only half the truth and you just confirmed it; if you know how to use your skills, you don’t really need defensive gear.
Just because the game is designed to be casual friendly doesn’t mean the veteran players have to be casual friendly. Being friendly and nice towards a group of players is a choice.
Some people choose to be friendly and help casuals. I usually just avoid them every chance I get.
Players that expect the game to give them all the info they need to play are perfectly fine – but they shouldn’t expect people who take their performance and execution seriously to give them the time of day.
If you can’t bother to watch a 10 minute guide on the dungeon run you’re about do to – I can’t bother to carry you through it.
Players need to realize that the path to self-improvement comes from within.
If you can’t bother to be kind, I can’t bother to treat you with respect or disregard.
The path to snack pack throwing begins with this kind of jargon.
See? I can deploy euphemisms as a “point” too.
And this is exactly why you and me should never play together in GW2.
I don’t play this game to have a sandbox environment of niceness and patting each other’s back. I play it to get stuff done.You play this game for completely different reasons than I do and because we have different objectives and means we should most likely never associate.
Now I will never join your party and tell you what to do or how to play – so please – live and let live and never join mine.
I urge you to find better time management if 5 minutes is an appreciable amount of time for you.
I urge you to notice that a player will perform best in gear they’re comfortable with.
I urge you to compare the results of playing with good players, regardless of their gear, versus bad players in zerker.
It’s so easy to turn these euphemisms around.
5 minutes is 1.31g for a highly competent party.
Co-Leader of The Mythical Dragons [MYTH],
Advocate of learning and being a useful party member.
http://mythdragons.enjin.com/recruitment
Advocate of learning and being a useful party member.
http://mythdragons.enjin.com/recruitment
I’m not really against elitists playing with elitists but shucks…if it makes that big of a difference in someone’s life, I don’t put much stock in your life (or your opinions, for that matter). Why someone like @Tigaseye would be comfortable with imposing a different value system is absurd. Snack pack throwers deserve our sympathy, not our scorn.
I dont take this game seriously enough to worry about shaving time off of a dungeon run either. But there is no more inherent value in trying to get one’s time for a mile run down to four minutes than there is for doing the same for a dungeon path in GW2. I personally wouldnt call someone out for trying to do the former nor would I suggest that others purposefully attempt to prevent them from succeeding.
The difference between a 10 minute mile run (lol four-minute mile, that’s a goal but a four-minute mile is like the highest standard of professional runners) and GW2 is pretty simple: Athletics are an accomplishment, video games aren’t. I can’t take someone’s opinion seriously if they’re deluded enough to think that video games are, or can be, an accomplishment.
Because here’s the simple reality: video game achievements are illusory. Accomplishments in a video game are narrow, specific and non-transferable. Any comparison is disingenuous.
How does one transfer a track and field accomplishment? How is running one specific TnF distance not narrow or specific? Most (competitive) runners specialize on a very narrow range of distances.
The four minute mile is not the highest standard of professional runners, but if you like lets use 5 minutes instead. The point is a personal goal to be pushed if possible. An accomplishment is anything that can be accomplished, particularly if it takes effort or skill.
I tend to think that someone who got their mile time down to 5 minutes (Ive only managed to break that time once but Ive never been a professional runner) has accomplished more than someone who has managed to achieve a time in a video game that most people cannot, but the reality of the matter is that this demonstrates bias on my part (and yours apparently) not that there is anything inherently more of value or worthy of being considered an achievement in endeavor than the other.
…and no, it’s no a tool in life, it’s a tool in a game.
A game – as in, a completely pointless (other than to have pointless fun) leisure activity.
What? I thought I was refining my skills to enchant my coworkers with Aegis if a shooter decides to rob us. Are you telling me this isn’t true?
Yes, I’m very sorry to have to be the one to break it to you…
“Turns out when people play the game, they don’t admire your feet at all.” sephiroth
It would probably work better if there was such a thing as a healer. Water ele != healer. Support, as a convention, has been completely destroyed in GW2. You don’t have to wear zerker gear to imply DPS, the skillbar is more important. Still, I’m sure many, like him, would have preferred to have larger support roles. I know one of my favorite builds in GW1 was a weapon spell ritualist – very easy to combine Splinter and GDW on 2-3 frontliners in a dungeon to kill every mob with a single attack chain.
I know but GW2 is not the game for healers or tanks, btw he’s not an ele. And my pure dps helps a lot. The aegis from guards helps as well though. So basically the roles in this game are still there but they’re different from what people are used to. But saying that someone performs best in teh gear he’s comfortable with is only half the truth and you just confirmed it; if you know how to use your skills, you don’t really need defensive gear.
Whatever confirmation you read must have been pulled straight from your kitten , because I offered no confirmation. Players still perform best in their comfort zone, whether they’re focusing on applying boons to the party with traits that reduce CD’s, maximizing their dps, summoning support, setting traps, etc. Gear improves the stats that are most beneficial to them, as a unique player, and help them contribute the most to their team. It takes exploration to find your comfort zone, not just Ctrl+C/V.
Different people have fun in different ways. Urging people to not have fun in a game they are playing is probably not a good idea.
If someone’s idea of having fun is to exclude other people they deem less worthy, then they shouldn’t play an MMO.
Or, they should only play it in a totally private (i.e. invisible) way, with a group of pre-selected friends (i.e. they shouldn’t list, or join listed, groups).
Otherwise, they risk putting off the next generation of players and that is not OK for the future of gaming.
Of course, once again, the main problem lies with the design of the game.
In other games, you simply cant write what you do and don’t want, in a list for dungeons.
You have to take what you’re given.
Then, you may be able to kick, or (more likely) you may leave, but you can’t just deign to never associate with “noobs” in dungeons; unless you only ever make your own premade groups.
Then why are you the one encouraging selfish behavior?
Because, sometimes, you have to fight fire with fire.
I recommend being a nice person to nice people, only.
Unpleasant people think they can win, in life, due to the fact that “nice” people have no choice but to be nice, all the time.
They are wrong.
Knowing how to play a class properly is exactly like a tool in life – anyone can spam 1 !
(Well some people cant even do that properly – but thats besides the point).We’re not talking about spamming 1, here.
Or in fact, we are, because that is pretty much the advice you are constantly given by “pros” in dungeons.
Stack in one place, constantly, equip a melee weap and (basically) do little more than spam 1.
…and no, it’s no a tool in life, it’s a tool in a game.
A game – as in, a completely pointless (other than to have pointless fun) leisure activity.
So the LFG tool is exclusively yours and should be used only by people who think like you?
And you are complaining about others being selfish. Maybe you should go evaluate why people are selfish towards you.
As for why you’re told to just spam 1, its probably because explaining how to do anything else would take so long ( I spent an hour last week in LA teaching a guildie how to execute a 6 skill staff ele opening rotation, just to get those skills semi-fluidly executed, without any enemies present. I still need to spend 3-4 hours with him at that pace, at least). Who the hell is going to teach some random pug for long, when they could straight up 4man a dungeon without you in 5-15 mins?
You’re told to spam one because if you can’t figure out how to do anything beyond that, you arent worth the effort to teach for the vast majority of people who could. You are being used as an extra dps bot. You’re being treated like an NPC. Like a rangers pet.
Co-Leader of The Mythical Dragons [MYTH],
Advocate of learning and being a useful party member.
http://mythdragons.enjin.com/recruitment
Advocate of learning and being a useful party member.
http://mythdragons.enjin.com/recruitment
I urge you to notice that a player will perform best in gear they’re comfortable with.
I urge you to compare the results of playing with good players, regardless of their gear, versus bad players in zerker.
Not really true, we have someone in our guild who loves to heal people and he’s usually down 80% of the time. Last time we were doing a dungeon he asked whether we’d prefer him as a healer or dps guy, so we said “dps” and it worked a lot better than usual. We carry him around as a healer though anyway because we like him a lot.
It would probably work better if there was such a thing as a healer. Water ele != healer. Support, as a convention, has been completely destroyed in GW2. You don’t have to wear zerker gear to imply DPS, the skillbar is more important. Still, I’m sure many, like him, would have preferred to have larger support roles. I know one of my favorite builds in GW1 was a weapon spell ritualist – very easy to combine Splinter and GDW on 2-3 frontliners in a dungeon to kill every mob with a single attack chain.
We don’t need healers.
You have a skill #6 for that.
Beyond that, learn animations for enemy attacks. Learn when to time dodges or when you can simply walk out of the way – saving endurance for attacks that do require dodge. wanting healers is a learn to play issue. Remember what I said about having the right build is only 10% of the learning curve? THIS is the kind of thing I’m referring to.
Co-Leader of The Mythical Dragons [MYTH],
Advocate of learning and being a useful party member.
http://mythdragons.enjin.com/recruitment
Advocate of learning and being a useful party member.
http://mythdragons.enjin.com/recruitment
Ashen, I wouldn’t play a game like this if I didn’t have a reasonable amount of time.
I would consider it totally inconsiderate to try to impose my small amount of free time on other players.
I would just have to leave mid dungeon, or go play a single player game, or play elements of the game where I could leave at any time, if I only had a very small amount of time to spare.
I wouldn’t try to make everyone else fit into my time constraints.
Of course I would care if someone, intentionally, tried to deprive me of something by pressing a button, but that is not the same, at all.
Newer players, or players who want to play in a more interesting (less utterly boring) way aren’t intentionally depriving you of anything.
They are just trying to enjoy the game they (probably mistakenly, as it turns out) bought.
The way the newer player is playing is not more interesting or less boring for some players. In fact it is less interesting and more boring. In fact the basic design of the game assumes that players will grow beyond being new/inexperienced.
Just as it would be unreasonable for a speedrun er to join my two hour RP dungeon run expecting a fast and efficient run or for an average casual player to join and expect to be able to complete the run in an hour and a half, its unreasonable for my RP friends and I to join a group labeled as a speed run and expect to be able to impose our time frame for completion on them. Different people enjoying the game in different ways. I will never join a dungeon run listed as a speedrun and assume that speedrunners will probably never join an RP event. Not a problem.
If an in game event or activity is advertised for a certain playstyle, joining it with the intention of not participating, when your lack of participation means that it is nonger possible to complete the activity in the advertised manner, it is no different than pressing a button to prevent others from achieving what they want in game.
How does one transfer a track and field accomplishment? How is running one specific TnF distance not narrow or specific? Most (competitive) runners specialize on a very narrow range of distances.
The four minute mile is not the highest standard of professional runners, but if you like lets use 5 minutes instead. The point is a personal goal to be pushed if possible. An accomplishment is anything that can be accomplished, particularly if it takes effort or skill.
I tend to think that someone who got their mile time down to 5 minutes (Ive only managed to break that time once but Ive never been a professional runner) has accomplished more than someone who has managed to achieve a time in a video game that most people cannot, but the reality of the matter is that this demonstrates bias on my part (and yours apparently) not that there is anything inherently more of value or worthy of being considered an achievement in endeavor than the other.
A four-minute mile is the highest standard. The mid-distance record for a mile is 3:45 – 15 second discrepancy from the world record doesn’t suddenly lift it from being a tremendous standard. Furthermore, running (and athletics) require a great deal of teamwork, motivation, effort and training. They didn’t watch a video and click some buttons, they spent several months, or even years, achieving a record. This intrinsic value is much higher and taken much more seriously, for good reason.
I’m going to call bullkitten on the whole “under 5 minutes” portion. If you ever actually did track and field, you’d know how insane that is – I did mid-distance running in high school and 6:45 was amazing, nevermind if I actually hit 5 minutes…or below that. I think your “bias” is that you made a comparison that you have no idea about.
Since the discussion in this thread has derailed and is no longer constructive this thread is now closed.
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