Guild Wars 2

GW2 is not the CoD or LoL of MMO’s it was trying to be. Of being super accessible and casual, yet reward players for skill and hardcore play as well. And even LoL is ruined quite a bit from the catering to casuals as the game as a whole is watered down and there is a whole load of depth removed from the game its derived from, DotA, just to cut down on the frustration of new players.

But GW2 just doesn’t care about the hardcore gamer at all, another thread stated the game was elitist in the opposite sense in which this word is usually used, in that if you aren’t the ideal player for Anet, if you don’t play between X and Y hours and are a tryhard in general, the game wants you to bugger off, you’re going to ruin it for the casuals.

Anet finally added endgame vertical progression in the form of ascended gear, and all the casuals SCREAMED that this was adding a gear treadmill. So now Anet vows that there will be no further treadmill. So what is the hardcore endgame now? Back to twiddling your thumbs, and trying to get that legendary while you rot in diminishing returns. Anet realizes this is a problem and thus they are working on revamping their PvP offerings, which in reality, is the only way you will keep hardcore players playing without adding a PvE gear treadmill.

Atm GW2 is not rewarding in terms of time put into the game or the amount skill/effort you put into it, just so the casual player can have his day in the sun and achieve just as much as people more dedicated to the game. Whereas more healthy game design would allow players to play the game both casually and as a hardcore gamer, giving both methods of playing unique perks. Take LoL for instance, casual players are generally as competitive as everyone else and can get champions faster than hardcore gamers in terms amount of hours played thanks to the First Win of the Day bonus, while hardcore gamers will generally have more options to choose from, along with getting to hone their skills more.

the uprising.6317:

Atm GW2 is not rewarding in terms of time put into the game or the amount skill/effort you put into it, just so the casual player can have his day in the sun and achieve just as much as people more dedicated to the game

Nope. What the game is telling you is that being “dedicated” – aka grinding mindlessly through easy and repetitive content for 10 hours per day every day for months, which is what people call “hardcore” these days – does not deserve a reward.

And it’s right.

That’s how real life works, too. A Chinese factory worker who works 12 hours per day 6 days a week is a lot like the so-called “dedicated” players, doing something simple and mindless over and over. Our factory worker does not get paid more than Steve Jobs did, though, despite how he worked less hours per week.

Face it – the difference is that other MMOs are trying to cater to those who are willing to spend time (which means, who are willing to pay monthly fees for longer), and so call those players the “hardcore”, “dedicated” and so on. On a game like GW2, in which there is no monthly fees, players who waste a lot of time with mindless and easy content are just people who waste a lot of time, nothing more.

Catering to the hardcore is ruining this game. This is supposed to be the alternative to all the boring, repetitive, Skinner Box nonsense in the MMO genre. If you want endgame like in WoW/Rift/SWTOR then go play WoW/Rift/SWTOR; this game isn’t meant for you.

Arkham Creed.7358:

Catering to the hardcore is ruining this game. This is supposed to be the alternative to all the boring, repetitive, Skinner Box nonsense in the MMO genre. If you want endgame like in WoW/Rift/SWTOR then go play WoW/Rift/SWTOR; this game isn’t meant for you.

No they said the game was for everyone. So now its supposed to be the alternative to WoW, which ironically has a huge casual following? I don’t know what they want, maybe to be the Wii of MMO’s.

I wish they told me the game wasn’t meant for the majority of ppl who actually LIKE MMO’s and were interested in a B2P one, before buying it…

the uprising.6317:

No they said the game was for everyone.

Where did you hear that? Because it is completely wrong. Arena Net said from the beginning that there was no endgame, so obviously this isn’t a game for people who demand endgame. Think logically. If you are a player who “needs” a certain type of content, and the developers have stated hundreds of times that that exact type of content was not in the game nor planned to be part of the game, then obviously the game is not for you.

the uprising.6317:

No they said the game was for everyone.

Not really.

Remember the Manifesto? “If you like MMOs, you will like Guild Wars 2. If you don’t like MMOs, you will really like Guild Wars 2”. With a bit of reading comprehension, it’s quite clear that ArenaNet’s target audience wasn’t the mass of MMO locusts who keep jumping from MMO to MMO looking for the next WoW clone, rather those players who are not deceived by the usual tricks employed by the current MMORPGs and who see them as the time sink Skinner boxes that they, in fact, are.

the uprising.6317:

I wish they told me the game wasn’t meant for the majority of ppl who actually LIKE MMO’s and were interested in a B2P one, before buying it…

See above. They did.

the uprising.6317:

No they said the game was for everyone.

This is what you’re doing right now. Let’s say you saw an advertisement of DOOM. The first DOOM game. And it said “FPS shooter. This game is for everyone.”. You buy it having that information, you play it and go “how is this game for everyone if I can’t duel wield swords?” completely forgetting that the advertisement even stated that it’s a shooter.
Guild Wars 2 never hid the fact that it will have no gear progression. The same way that it never hid the fact that it will have no trinity. You can’t buy a game knowing its main advertising points and then claim that it should have it, even though the advertising said that it won’t.
This game is what it is and what it stated to be. If this type of MMO is not for you, then it’s not for you, you can’t change it, or claim that nobody likes it for what it is.

the uprising.6317:

So now its supposed to be the alternative to WoW, which ironically has a huge casual following?

WoW does not have a huge casual following. For one thing no casual would agree to pay a monthly fee just to play once a week or so. It simply does not pay when there are B2P and F2P MMOs out there.

LoL is not an mmorpg, it is not really relevant to bring up what Lol did or didn’t do…

The casuals weren’t the ones screaming when ascended gear was added…it was added Nov 15 so how in the hell can you say they “…Anet finally added endgame vertical progression in the form of ascended gear…” Everyone was screaming- most of all the GW1 players who mostly have left the game. I guess I should say “nearly everyone was screaming…” since some people will defend Anet or this game no matter how many lies have become evident since release.

Anyways, the OP “the uprising” no one has heard of you so you are not hardcore. Make some videos and show us how good you are at pvp or how quickly you can clear Arah.

Besides Legendaries, there is a lot of hardcore stuff to do in this game and speed running CoF1 on your warrior isn’t one of them.

I watched a video of a five man Spvp all Necro team the other day and I’ll bet all of my gold that you could not gather four friends of any comp and beat them.

Have a great day sir, and please stop spreading false information.

Uprising, I think I know what you did. You saw “MMO” and got confused. You forgot that MMO is nothing. It isn’t a thing. It isn’t a genre. It isn’t even a part of a genre. MMO means “massively multi-player online.” It is a multi-player system, nothing more. No different from or more significant than “co-op” or “one-to-four players” or “system link.” It is often used as shorthand for MMORPG, but that in itself is flawed. Guild Wars 2 simply isn’t the same kind of game as games like World of Warcraft, or Rift, or Star Wars The Old Republic. It isn’t the same genre.

To paraphrase the good people at Extra Credits, mechanics have nothing to do with genre. A genre is the core engagement of the game; the reason you play. Both Call of Duty and Mass Effect are shooters, both have guns you aim, both have reload mechanics, both have leveling and progression, but you don’t play CoD for the same reason you play Mass Effect. The core engagement of the two games is completely different. It is the same thing here. The core engagement of whatever MMO you come from, obviously, was progression. But progression is not the core engagement of Guild Wars 2; it is an afterthought. Or at best a tutorial mechanic. You progress to learn how to play, you don’t play to learn how to progress.

You’re playing the wrong genre. You are looking for engagement that doesn’t exist. You bought Mass Effect when you wanted Call of Duty. Next time don’t just assume that every MMO is the same. As I said MMO isn’t even a thing. It isn’t even a mechanic. It isn’t even a style. It’s simply how many people can play at once. Four people can play Mortal Kombat 9 at once, but that doesn’t somehow make it something other than a fighting game, just like how only one person can play Skyrim, but it isn’t any less of a RPG.

Mirta.5029:

WoW does not have a huge casual following. For one thing no casual would agree to pay a monthly fee just to play once a week or so. It simply does not pay when there are B2P and F2P MMOs out there.

“No casual would agree to pay a monthly fee just to play once a week or so…” Is this your opinion or could you provide any evidence at all for this?

“It simply does not pay when there are B2P and F2P MMOs out there.” I’d rather pay a subscription than deal with Nexon and NCsoft’s cash shop RNG.

lesser of two evils.

Mirta.5029:

WoW does not have a huge casual following. For one thing no casual would agree to pay a monthly fee just to play once a week or so. It simply does not pay when there are B2P and F2P MMOs out there.

WoW has a HUGE casual following. Suddenly casuals aren’t allowed to spend money?

Mathias.9657:

WoW has a HUGE casual following. Suddenly casuals aren’t allowed to spend money?

I’m just judging from my own friends and family. There wasn’t a single player that payed for a 30 day WoW subscription and then didn’t feel guilty for not playing WoW before his subscription ran out. It would be kind of different if subscriptions would take a day away every time you play a day, but the ones that we have right now run out no matter you play or not, so most people try to get their money’s worth.

Kiijj.3594:

I think you’re missing the whole point of GW2. This game isn’t about end-game content or gear treadmills. It’s about people playing the game for I don’t know…. fun? Where gear does not determine the outcome of a fight between two parties, but skill?

I know a game that caters to the “hardcore”, and that’s the reason why I left that stupid game years ago and have never looked back.

Because end-game content isn’t fun and gear disparities are the only deciding factors of a battle in other MMOs.

Weregild.3596:

Because end-game content isn’t fun and gear disparities are the only deciding factors of a battle in other MMOs.

In old MMOs? Yes. Try running a raid in WoW without meeting the minimum requirements for the raid. One shot. Or even better – try PvPing with low end gear. Got that used to infuriate me.

Kiijj.3594:

I think you’re missing the whole point of GW2. This game isn’t about end-game content or gear treadmills. It’s about people playing the game for I don’t know…. fun? Where gear does not determine the outcome of a fight between two parties, but skill?

Yep.

OP bought GW2 thinking they were buying Warhammer Online.

Oops.

Mirta.5029:

There wasn’t a single player that payed for a 30 day WoW subscription and then didn’t feel guilty for not playing WoW before his subscription ran out.
… but the ones that we have right now run out no matter you play or not, so most people try to get their money’s worth.

You might be correct but can you provide any evidence or quotes or anything at all to back up these claims you’ve made?

I love discussing these topics but it is difficult when there are many emotional opinions added to the discussion.

Mahaedros.7085:

Mirta.5029:

There wasn’t a single player that payed for a 30 day WoW subscription and then didn’t feel guilty for not playing WoW before his subscription ran out.
… but the ones that we have right now run out no matter you play or not, so most people try to get their money’s worth.

You might be correct but can you provide any evidence or quotes or anything at all to back up these claims you’ve made?

I love discussing these topics but it is difficult when there are many emotional opinions added to the discussion.

I’ll back it up. I can only speak for myself, but I dropped sub based games almost instantly. I hated feeling like I was shackled to the game, and that sense of “I need to play” went a long way toward undercutting any enjoyment I may have been getting. Wanting to play and needing to play don’t always go hand-in-hand, and feeling like I needed to play to get my money’s worth was actually rather frustrating when there was other things I needed or wanted to do. In essence the sub fee turned the game into a chore; and I don’t personally find chores very engaging or enjoyable. I don’t believe a game should ever be a chore; it should never be something you feel like you have to do. It stops being a game at that point.

Arkham Creed.7358:

Mahaedros.7085:

Mirta.5029:

There wasn’t a single player that payed for a 30 day WoW subscription and then didn’t feel guilty for not playing WoW before his subscription ran out.
… but the ones that we have right now run out no matter you play or not, so most people try to get their money’s worth.

You might be correct but can you provide any evidence or quotes or anything at all to back up these claims you’ve made?

I love discussing these topics but it is difficult when there are many emotional opinions added to the discussion.

I’ll back it up. I can only speak for myself, but I dropped sub based games almost instantly. I hated feeling like I was shackled to the game, and that sense of “I need to play” went a long way toward undercutting any enjoyment I may have been getting. Wanting to play and needing to play don’t always go hand-in-hand, and feeling like I needed to play to get my money’s worth was actually rather frustrating when there was other things I needed or wanted to do. In essence the sub fee turned the game into a chore; and I don’t personally find chores very engaging or enjoyable. I don’t believe a game should ever be a chore; it should never be something you feel like you have to do. It stops being a game at that point.

Okay, you and Mirta agree, and that’s great. What I object to are comments such as Mirta’s: “There wasn’t a single player that payed for a 30 day WoW subscription and then didn’t feel guilty for not playing WoW before his subscription ran out.”

What you refer to above as “chores”, I, for one, agree with you wholeheartedly.

I think this game has plenty to do for “hardcores” other than Legendaries… but I object when players say there is nothing to do that’s challenging and then all they do is run CoF1 constantly with the easiest comp possible…

A large portion of my MMORPG experience is finding challenging things to achieve (albeit, with like minded friends) and then taking them to the next level… dungeon runs with only a single profession/ class… and of course, PvP. You’ll probably never be satisfied with challenging PvE content because (unless you are different than most people and watch a video on how to complete the PvE encounter…) you don’t figure out the PvE encounter for yourself and struggle until you complete it and then feel that type of reward.

I could be wrong about you but that’s what many who say what you are saying are like- they don’t even take the chance to figure out the content they are complaining is “too easy.”

I prefer Diablo 1’s randomized dungeons from the 20th century than following a set/scripted encounter that the Hardcore Raiders learn from guides and then memorize until they get the gear to make it even easier and then claim their superiority over the casuals.

Op I think you should have done some research before buying GW2.
It is not and was never designed to be what you want- those casuals you claim are ruining your game seem to have a better grasp of the point than you do.

As for Ascended? Everybody except for those few who were screaming progression on the forums because they can’t do research- complained about it.

People who buy without looking are what is ruining this game for everyone who came here because they were tired of same old same old.

Erasculio.2914:

the uprising.6317:

No they said the game was for everyone.

Not really.

Remember the Manifesto? “If you like MMOs, you will like Guild Wars 2. If you don’t like MMOs, you will really like Guild Wars 2”. With a bit of reading comprehension, it’s quite clear that ArenaNet’s target audience wasn’t the mass of MMO locusts who keep jumping from MMO to MMO looking for the next WoW clone, rather those players who are not deceived by the usual tricks employed by the current MMORPGs and who see them as the time sink Skinner boxes that they, in fact, are.

the uprising.6317:

I wish they told me the game wasn’t meant for the majority of ppl who actually LIKE MMO’s and were interested in a B2P one, before buying it…

See above. They did.

No they didn’t they said if you like mmo’s you will like GW2, this is most blatantly not the case. Again, casual gamer or gtfo, I don’t know how you guys don’t see this as “backward” elitism.

the uprising.6317:

Arkham Creed.7358:

Catering to the hardcore is ruining this game. This is supposed to be the alternative to all the boring, repetitive, Skinner Box nonsense in the MMO genre. If you want endgame like in WoW/Rift/SWTOR then go play WoW/Rift/SWTOR; this game isn’t meant for you.

No they said the game was for everyone. So now its supposed to be the alternative to WoW, which ironically has a huge casual following? I don’t know what they want, maybe to be the Wii of MMO’s.

I wish they told me the game wasn’t meant for the majority of ppl who actually LIKE MMO’s and were interested in a B2P one, before buying it…

They said the game was for everyone. EVERYONE. Everyone in the entire world is going to like this game. Right. And you believed that? Really? I think there’s more of a problem here than the game. Or are you just being disingenuous.

No game is for everyone. No matter how good a game is, no matter how many people like it, no game is for everyone.

Many people who like MMOs like this game, because they’re tired of investing their entire lives in an MMO. I can name five of those guys off hand. Burnt out hard core raiders who never want to do it again. So they like other MMOs and REALLY appreciate what this game has to offer.

And though this game offers some challenges for some people, it doesn’t offer infinite challenges for people like you.

Complaining about it isn’t going to change it, because no developer can keep up with the content locusts. That’s why every MMO at the end of the day, has the same post on their forums after six months. SWToR lack of end game. TSW, not enough content. Look at any MMO forum and you’ll see the same thing.

You can’t make enough content to satisfy the content locusts. So why should they even try?

Mahaedros.7085:

You might be correct but can you provide any evidence or quotes or anything at all to back up these claims you’ve made?

I love discussing these topics but it is difficult when there are many emotional opinions added to the discussion.

You are correct, I presented an emotional opinion and I shouldn’t have. I think I should have started my sentence with “I think”. So then I think that one wouldn’t pay for a subscription if they were not planning to use that subscription to the max, because if they wanted to play on and off they had a wider selection from F2P and B2P games. However I can’t speak for everyone (only for myself and my family), therefore there probably are casual WoW players that love the game for its lore. However saying that WoW has a lot of success with the casual audience probably needs backing up too.

Kiijj.3594:

I think you’re missing the whole point of GW2. This game isn’t about end-game content or gear treadmills. It’s about people playing the game for I don’t know…. fun? Where gear does not determine the outcome of a fight between two parties, but skill?

I know a game that caters to the “hardcore”, and that’s the reason why I left that stupid game years ago and have never looked back.

You guys are just… I mean these forums are moderated stricter than soviet russia, and I fully expect this thread to be locked by tomorrow due b/c it doesn’t fit Anet’s “vision” or w/e, so I’m not going to flat out insult you… but just man.

MMO’s are all about progression bro, self expression and growth via your character, the actual action you are doing is super boring, GW2 is no different not sure why you would think it would be different. Without progression or rewards you are just grinding for no reward, that’s like insanely weird.

But again you guys are either extreme altaholics or casual gamers so my message is lost upon you all. Looking forward to the new mmo’s coming out, especially Wildstar, it looks like it is trying to attract casuals as well, but they seem to understand how to make a game for everyone, similar to LoL.

Vayne.8563:

the uprising.6317:

Arkham Creed.7358:

Catering to the hardcore is ruining this game. This is supposed to be the alternative to all the boring, repetitive, Skinner Box nonsense in the MMO genre. If you want endgame like in WoW/Rift/SWTOR then go play WoW/Rift/SWTOR; this game isn’t meant for you.

No they said the game was for everyone. So now its supposed to be the alternative to WoW, which ironically has a huge casual following? I don’t know what they want, maybe to be the Wii of MMO’s.

I wish they told me the game wasn’t meant for the majority of ppl who actually LIKE MMO’s and were interested in a B2P one, before buying it…

They said the game was for everyone. EVERYONE. Everyone in the entire world is going to like this game. Right. And you believed that? Really? I think there’s more of a problem here than the game. Or are you just being disingenuous.

No game is for everyone. No matter how good a game is, no matter how many people like it, no game is for everyone.

Many people who like MMOs like this game, because they’re tired of investing their entire lives in an MMO. I can name five of those guys off hand. Burnt out hard core raiders who never want to do it again. So they like other MMOs and REALLY appreciate what this game has to offer.

And though this game offers some challenges for some people, it doesn’t offer infinite challenges for people like you.

Complaining about it isn’t going to change it, because no developer can keep up with the content locusts. That’s why every MMO at the end of the day, has the same post on their forums after six months. SWToR lack of end game. TSW, not enough content. Look at any MMO forum and you’ll see the same thing.

You can’t make enough content to satisfy the content locusts. So why should they even try?

You’re right, the real mmo players will just go back to WoW since it has more content. Its sad seeing all these mmo’s compete against WoW, when no one can really out-WoW, WoW. They have to do something different or no one will stay. GW2 I guess finds its carebear casual niche or w/e.

Though you have to note that WoW does new content for hardcore gamers right, in that ppl rarely, if ever, complain that they have nothing to do. And the casuals have a lot of things to do as well, that’s how good mmo’s are made.

the uprising.6317:

You’re right, the real mmo players will just go back to WoW since it has more content. Its sad seeing all these mmo’s compete against WoW, when no one can really out-WoW, WoW. They have to do something different or no one will stay. GW2 I guess finds its carebear casual niche or w/e.

Though you have to note that WoW does new content for hardcore gamers right, in that ppl rarely, if ever, complain that they have nothing to do. And the casuals have a lot of things to do as well, that’s how good mmo’s are made.

The term “hardcore gamers” makes me laugh on the inside.

I may just be getting old :P

the uprising.6317:

You’re right, the real mmo players will just go back to WoW since it has more content. Its sad seeing all these mmo’s compete against WoW, when no one can really out-WoW, WoW. They have to do something different or no one will stay. GW2 I guess finds its carebear casual niche or w/e.

Though you have to note that WoW does new content for hardcore gamers right, in that ppl rarely, if ever, complain that they have nothing to do. And the casuals have a lot of things to do as well, that’s how good mmo’s are made.

It must be losing over 1 million subscribers every few months because it’s so good!

Mirta.5029:

the uprising.6317:

You’re right, the real mmo players will just go back to WoW since it has more content. Its sad seeing all these mmo’s compete against WoW, when no one can really out-WoW, WoW. They have to do something different or no one will stay. GW2 I guess finds its carebear casual niche or w/e.

Though you have to note that WoW does new content for hardcore gamers right, in that ppl rarely, if ever, complain that they have nothing to do. And the casuals have a lot of things to do as well, that’s how good mmo’s are made.

It must be losing over 1 million subscribers every few months because it’s so good!

GW2 has what % of its original playerbase still playing? And how old is WoW and how old is GW2? The real success and staying power of GW2 will be tested in its expansion, on release GW2 had a lot of hype, was the first of its kind in its payment model, and no one really knew what it was about. Now everything is laid bare, and more competitors are on the way, we will see if it will sink or swim.

the uprising.6317:

GW2 has what % of its original playerbase still playing? And how old is WoW and how old is GW2? The real success and staying power of GW2 will be tested in its expansion, on release GW2 had a lot of hype, was the first of its kind in its payment model, and no one really knew what it was about. Now everything is laid bare, and more competitors are on the way, we will see if it will sink or swim.

All I’m saying is that MMO giant is bleeding to death and anyone that tried to copy its mechanics did not go even remotely as far (see Rift needing to go F2P), therefore claiming that it’s the right way for MMOs to head is silly.

the uprising.6317:

MMO’s are all about progression bro, self expression and growth via your character, the actual action you are doing is super boring, GW2 is no different not sure why you would think it would be different. Without progression or rewards you are just grinding for no reward, that’s like insanely weird.

No; they aren’t. You need to scroll up and read my post; MMO isn’t even a genre. It is just a player limit. The games you like are all about progression, and that is fine, but not all games are, and all games with this player limit don’t have to be. And as far as grinding, may I offer a suggestion? Stop grinding. You said yourself there is no reward for it, so why do it? Did it not occur to you that your not supposed to grind? That maybe the reason Arena Net keeps nerfing farming paths is because you’re not supposed to be doing that?

At this point I think we can all agree that you’re not happy, and likely don’t see a reason to stick to playing Guild Wars 2. I wish you well with Wildstar or whatever game you end up with, but how about you try an experiment before you quit? Just try playing the game without grinding. Without thinking about progression. It is pretty clear you won’t be changing your idea about what a MMO is, so try pretending that GW2 isn’t a MMO. Play it like a…..oh…..cooperative online RPG.

Mirta.5029:

Mahaedros.7085:

You might be correct but can you provide any evidence or quotes or anything at all to back up these claims you’ve made?

I love discussing these topics but it is difficult when there are many emotional opinions added to the discussion.

You are correct, I presented an emotional opinion and I shouldn’t have. I think I should have started my sentence with “I think”. So then I think that one wouldn’t pay for a subscription if they were not planning to use that subscription to the max, because if they wanted to play on and off they had a wider selection from F2P and B2P games. However I can’t speak for everyone (only for myself and my family), therefore there probably are casual WoW players that love the game for its lore. However saying that WoW has a lot of success with the casual audience probably needs backing up too.

okay thanks.

I think the fact that only a small percentage of WoW players ever saw most of the endgame is evidence that at least one Subscription game had success with casuals…

Other people can probably bring up the numbers. This is, of course, before LFR etc were introduced… what percentage of WoW players even did an endgame raid before WotLK was released?

I left WoW when they announced what I read about the talent changes coming in MoP after being disappointed with the simplifying of the talents that occurred earlier… Blizzard uses the term “balance” to hide the goal to keep subs subbing…

Anyways… WoW was one game and GW2 is another. Back on topic: I don’t think the Hardcores are always people who find challenging things on their own and complain when they are able to find a guide telling them the easiest way to complete content.

You guys just argue back and forth and back and forth. Elitists are ruining GW2, casuals are ruining GW2. you know whats ruining GW2? People who can’t stay the long haul, people who give up so easily on something because it isn’t perfect. Well you know what? Nothings perfect in life, nothing in life you find will be perfect, nothing will give you happiness that amounts to meaning more than everything else. GW2 needs fixes, GW2 needs progression, GW2 needs constructive ideas to make it grow. If all you can do is whine and moan about how bad it is then just leave, whats keeping you here? Why not find a place that suites you, why not find a place that fits you better? Is it so much to ask that you spend a simple moment reflecting on what can be bettered by the game rather than simply complaining about it? What is this elitism, what is this fan boy hatred that keeps you all busy with ad hominid and hatred towards one another? Use your aggression and smarts to make a better game rather than to beat each other down. Use your intelligence to make a better design rather than to treat others like garbage. You know what the true problem with GW2 is? It is the people, the people who can’t let go of stereotypes, who cant let go of attention, who can’t simply construct a suggestion that is beneficial for everyone because they would much rather complain than be a part of the solution.

If you would all just stop the childish bickering and offer solutions, whether they be wrong or right, then perhaps you could see a change in the game. Otherwise your just here to make others lived miserable, in which case your doing a disservice to the world by even posting against others who actually care. Maybe its just a game, maybe its a stupid pixelated realm where some people live. But for some of us its a way to get away from the crappy real world. And if you would rather live and breath that crappy real world where violence and war run rampant then do so, do so without posting how much you hate the game. Because some people enjoy it, enjoy it for all its screwed up meta events, enjoy it for all its bugs and glitches, because we have hope it will be better. Because we can’t change the world with suggestions, because we cant make the real world better with a forum post. But we sure as kitten can make a difference here in forums by expressing ourselves, so stop trying to deter that with garbage posts and entitled garbage that is just trash talk to make yourself feel better. Seriously everyone needs to take a break from their ego and move on, do something better for everyone, and make a difference. Rather than make a dark spot on forums in a video game.

the uprising.6317:

MMO’s are all about progression bro, self expression and growth via your character, the actual action you are doing is super boring, GW2 is no different not sure why you would think it would be different. Without progression or rewards you are just grinding for no reward, that’s like insanely weird.

But again you guys are either extreme altaholics or casual gamers so my message is lost upon you all. Looking forward to the new mmo’s coming out, especially Wildstar, it looks like it is trying to attract casuals as well, but they seem to understand how to make a game for everyone, similar to LoL.

lol o man … I just don’t agree that MMORPG’s are about progression.

Progression is for people that need help finding out what to do or to show off or something weird that games in the last few years have been promoting.

MMORPG’s have been around for a long time and terms like “adventure” “discovery” “figuring out a challenge and overcoming it” are much more applicable than “go raid and listen to what someone else tells you what to do and repeat it ad nauseum until I progress enough to get some item that makes my progression even easier…”

Off topic: I won’t play Wildstar or any other game that NCsoft has anything to do with

Geotherma.2395:

You guys just argue back and forth and back and forth. Elitists are ruining GW2, casuals are ruining GW2. you know whats ruining GW2? People who can’t stay the long haul, people who give up so easily on something because it isn’t perfect.

I find this a very interesting topic and I enjoy playing GW2.

Could you provide any evidence at all to your claim that " you know whats ruining GW2? People who can’t stay the long haul, people who give up so easily on something because it isn’t perfect.?"

Why do people on these forums keep saying things like " If all you can do is whine and moan about how bad it is then just leave, whats keeping you here?If all you can do is whine and moan about how bad it is then just leave, whats keeping you here?"

How is telling people to leave the game helping the game?

Nearly everyone who says “leave the game” because the person is complaining on the forums will tell you that only a small percentage of players even read the forums… so why tell anyone to leave the game? I’d like to see people on these forums stop doing this- stop telling people to leave the game. Stop telling people that this game is not for them. It’s not helping and you don’t work for ArenaNet so stop trying to be their spokesman.

the uprising.6317:

Anet finally added endgame vertical progression in the form of ascended gear, and all the casuals SCREAMED that this was adding a gear treadmill. So now Anet vows that there will be no further treadmill. So what is the hardcore endgame now?

a) Repeatedly getting better and better gear isn’t ‘hardcore’ if it isn’t difficult, just time-consuming and a cheap tactic called the Skinner box to keep people playing .

b) It wasn’t just the casuals that screamed. It was the GW1 players, and the players who feel that they lied in their manifesto.

the uprising.6317:

MMO’s are all about progression bro, self expression and growth via your character, the actual action you are doing is super boring, GW2 is no different not sure why you would think it would be different. Without progression or rewards you are just grinding for no reward, that’s like insanely weird.

RPG’s (not MMO’s) are (originally) about role-playing a character, but it doesn’t necessarily mean it needs stat progression.

For example, if you started out as a grunt for one of the Orders, and you done missions for them, working your way up the ranks. As you get higher in rank, you get access to more dangerous missions. Maybe these missions could branch out, have a sort of scoring system, in which you’re given missions that play to your strengths (i.e. someone who managed to avoid most enemies would get assassination missions, while someone who just plowed their way through would get front line missions).

That’s a form of progression for your character based on the world you’re engaged in (on a personal note, I feel they missed out on interjecting the Personal Story into the open world here, as well as to help with the pacing.)

As for the ‘just grinding for no reward’ comment, intrinsic vs extrinsic rewards; if a player finds the activity in itself rewarding, they don’t need to a carrot on a stick to do it. This is a case of ‘different strokes for different folks’, so you can’t flat out say ‘it is boring’. It’s just boring for you, in which case, why would you play the game anyway?

Mahaedros.7085:

Geotherma.2395:

You guys just argue back and forth and back and forth. Elitists are ruining GW2, casuals are ruining GW2. you know whats ruining GW2? People who can’t stay the long haul, people who give up so easily on something because it isn’t perfect.

I find this a very interesting topic and I enjoy playing GW2.

Could you provide any evidence at all to your claim that " you know whats ruining GW2? People who can’t stay the long haul, people who give up so easily on something because it isn’t perfect.?"

Why do people on these forums keep saying things like " If all you can do is whine and moan about how bad it is then just leave, whats keeping you here?If all you can do is whine and moan about how bad it is then just leave, whats keeping you here?"

How is telling people to leave the game helping the game?

Nearly everyone who says “leave the game” because the person is complaining on the forums will tell you that only a small percentage of players even read the forums… so why tell anyone to leave the game? I’d like to see people on these forums stop doing this- stop telling people to leave the game. Stop telling people that this game is not for them. It’s not helping and you don’t work for ArenaNet so stop trying to be their spokesman.

Because people can’t get mats, people think Anet nerfed the mats. When in actuality it is because people simply aren’t there in Orr now, and rather in Southsun. But people would rather believe Anet nerfed the drop rate rather than stick with pure logic, it is ridiculous. I’d rather people leave than listen to this garbage, so many games like Aion are so much worse and despicable representations of MMO’s, and yet here were are in forums about how terrible GW2 is when it is the only MMO that has tried new things and tried to cater to the changes in style of MMO players. I’m not some brainwashed fanboy trying to pump up the game, I simple call for peace and honesty and intelligence. Which seems to be the least common commodity in this game right now. I swear I’m not calling everyone stupid, but seriously when is the last time someone posted something remotely helpful that isn’t a black and white representation of either hatred or love for the game? Is there no median? Is there no discussion to be had among the populous? It just disheartens me to know that so many people young and old find more fun in berating others than fixing a simple problem in something so trivial and yet so enjoyable as an MMO.

Hardcore gamer of MMO’s for 10+ years here. I do not like gear treadmills and think they are kitten. This game got worse BECAUSE they added ascended gear, this game did not need time-gated gear progression. Horrible design choice.

Mahaedros.7085:

I left WoW when they announced what I read about the talent changes coming in MoP after being disappointed with the simplifying of the talents that occurred earlier… Blizzard uses the term “balance” to hide the goal to keep subs subbing…

What’s the difference in having 10 or 50 talent points in games like WoW, if you are a dedicated PvE progress raider in WoW, you just check the forums for the flavor of the month cookie cutter build and copy that anyways; someone already did the math @ PTR.

the uprising.6317:

MMO’s are all about progression bro, self expression and growth via your character, the actual action you are doing is super boring

This is perhaps what YOU think a MMO should be all about – doing boring actions to get the gear to get to do even more boring actions. To me, this sounds like the ultimate waste of life and precious spare time, so I’m really glad Anet is trying to do something different with GW2

the uprising.6317:

Vayne.8563:

the uprising.6317:

Arkham Creed.7358:

Catering to the hardcore is ruining this game. This is supposed to be the alternative to all the boring, repetitive, Skinner Box nonsense in the MMO genre. If you want endgame like in WoW/Rift/SWTOR then go play WoW/Rift/SWTOR; this game isn’t meant for you.

No they said the game was for everyone. So now its supposed to be the alternative to WoW, which ironically has a huge casual following? I don’t know what they want, maybe to be the Wii of MMO’s.

I wish they told me the game wasn’t meant for the majority of ppl who actually LIKE MMO’s and were interested in a B2P one, before buying it…

They said the game was for everyone. EVERYONE. Everyone in the entire world is going to like this game. Right. And you believed that? Really? I think there’s more of a problem here than the game. Or are you just being disingenuous.

No game is for everyone. No matter how good a game is, no matter how many people like it, no game is for everyone.

Many people who like MMOs like this game, because they’re tired of investing their entire lives in an MMO. I can name five of those guys off hand. Burnt out hard core raiders who never want to do it again. So they like other MMOs and REALLY appreciate what this game has to offer.

And though this game offers some challenges for some people, it doesn’t offer infinite challenges for people like you.

Complaining about it isn’t going to change it, because no developer can keep up with the content locusts. That’s why every MMO at the end of the day, has the same post on their forums after six months. SWToR lack of end game. TSW, not enough content. Look at any MMO forum and you’ll see the same thing.

You can’t make enough content to satisfy the content locusts. So why should they even try?

You’re right, the real mmo players will just go back to WoW since it has more content. Its sad seeing all these mmo’s compete against WoW, when no one can really out-WoW, WoW. They have to do something different or no one will stay. GW2 I guess finds its carebear casual niche or w/e.

Though you have to note that WoW does new content for hardcore gamers right, in that ppl rarely, if ever, complain that they have nothing to do. And the casuals have a lot of things to do as well, that’s how good mmo’s are made.

If it’s how good MMOs are made, why do I not like WoW. Oh I see, you mean good MMOs for people who share your play style. That’s quite a different story.

WoW is one of the worst MMOs I’ve played for me. I liked Rift better. I liked Lotro better. I liked AoC better. Hell, I liked DDO and Perfect World better (and that’s saying a lot).

The point is, this IS a good MMO. It’s not good for you. But since people seem to be enjoying it, whether it’s because they’re casual, extreme altoholic, tired of gear treadmills or whatever.

Did you miss the part in the manifesto if you hate MMOs you’ll really want to check out Guild Wars 2? I’m one of the guys they were talking to.

Shiyo.3578:

Hardcore gamer of MMO’s for 10+ years here. I do not like gear treadmills and think they are kitten. This game got worse BECAUSE they added ascended gear, this game did not need time-gated gear progression. Horrible design choice.

Because hard core gamers asked for it, because they asked for gear progression. They get it and then complain about how they have to grind for it, something that is almost a positive etched in mentality of the gear grind style of gaming. They get what they want, they aren’t happy, they don’t get what they want they aren’t happy. A publisher, a developer can’t cater to every player, they seem to do their best at trying though. But once again it falls upon the players to enjoy the content, and casuals simply don’t want the ascended grind, and hardcores don’t want to work for the BIS gear. So people need to make up their mind or the game will never progress.

For once you have a voice, an opinion on where the game should head, and instead of taking this opportunity to advance it we confuse them by telling them we want a clone, or don’t want a clone. People need to make up their minds and make a choice, explain that choice and offer suggestive feedback. Otherwise your just hampering the game, wasting developers and players time, and pointlessly ranting on forums to simply take up space. Being an online entity does not make you important, making a change in the world whether it be online or offline does. If you can’t contribute then move on, maybe I’m not clear enough to people, maybe I’m to harsh. But at this point I really don’t care, I’m just sick of the bickering and childishness that has ruined so many games before this. I’m hoping for better here, as no community will ever be perfect. I respect you all as the most mature and intelligent community I have ever seen, so stop disappointing me and yourself by becoming yet another reason everyone moves on to the next bug thing.

Mahaedros.7085:

Geotherma.2395:

You guys just argue back and forth and back and forth. Elitists are ruining GW2, casuals are ruining GW2. you know whats ruining GW2? People who can’t stay the long haul, people who give up so easily on something because it isn’t perfect.

I find this a very interesting topic and I enjoy playing GW2.

Could you provide any evidence at all to your claim that " you know whats ruining GW2? People who can’t stay the long haul, people who give up so easily on something because it isn’t perfect.?"

Why do people on these forums keep saying things like " If all you can do is whine and moan about how bad it is then just leave, whats keeping you here?If all you can do is whine and moan about how bad it is then just leave, whats keeping you here?"

How is telling people to leave the game helping the game?

Nearly everyone who says “leave the game” because the person is complaining on the forums will tell you that only a small percentage of players even read the forums… so why tell anyone to leave the game? I’d like to see people on these forums stop doing this- stop telling people to leave the game. Stop telling people that this game is not for them. It’s not helping and you don’t work for ArenaNet so stop trying to be their spokesman.

I almost never tell people to leave the game. By the same token, from some comments you can just tell that someone doesn’t get what Anet is trying to do here, and they wont’ be happy until this game is enough like other MMOs to drive me off. So yes, I would rather they leave the game, than put pressure on Anet to change something that works perfectly well for some of us.

I mean you’re aware of what happens when Anet introduced a single new tier of accessories, right?

Geotherma.2395:

Mahaedros.7085:

Geotherma.2395:

You guys just argue back and forth and back and forth. Elitists are ruining GW2, casuals are ruining GW2. you know whats ruining GW2? People who can’t stay the long haul, people who give up so easily on something because it isn’t perfect.

I find this a very interesting topic and I enjoy playing GW2.

Could you provide any evidence at all to your claim that " you know whats ruining GW2? People who can’t stay the long haul, people who give up so easily on something because it isn’t perfect.?"

Why do people on these forums keep saying things like " If all you can do is whine and moan about how bad it is then just leave, whats keeping you here?If all you can do is whine and moan about how bad it is then just leave, whats keeping you here?"

How is telling people to leave the game helping the game?

Nearly everyone who says “leave the game” because the person is complaining on the forums will tell you that only a small percentage of players even read the forums… so why tell anyone to leave the game? I’d like to see people on these forums stop doing this- stop telling people to leave the game. Stop telling people that this game is not for them. It’s not helping and you don’t work for ArenaNet so stop trying to be their spokesman.

Because people can’t get mats, people think Anet nerfed the mats. When in actuality it is because people simply aren’t there in Orr now, and rather in Southsun. But people would rather believe Anet nerfed the drop rate rather than stick with pure logic, it is ridiculous. I’d rather people leave than listen to this garbage, so many games like Aion are so much worse and despicable representations of MMO’s, and yet here were are in forums about how terrible GW2 is when it is the only MMO that has tried new things and tried to cater to the changes in style of MMO players. I’m not some brainwashed fanboy trying to pump up the game, I simple call for peace and honesty and intelligence. Which seems to be the least common commodity in this game right now. I swear I’m not calling everyone stupid, but seriously when is the last time someone posted something remotely helpful that isn’t a black and white representation of either hatred or love for the game? Is there no median? Is there no discussion to be had among the populous? It just disheartens me to know that so many people young and old find more fun in berating others than fixing a simple problem in something so trivial and yet so enjoyable as an MMO.

“so many games like Aion are so much worse and despicable representations of MMO’s, and yet here were are in forums about how terrible GW2 is when it is the only MMO that has tried new things and tried to cater to the changes in style of MMO players. "

Man nothing against you Geotherma, I enjoy discussing things on the forums but I don’t want to see GW2 turn into Aion but it’s hard not to fear NCsoft doing just that

I love GW2 and have a lot of fun but I want to do all I can from to keep NCsoft from ruining it more than it has…

I don’t think NC soft/Nexon is evil, I just don’t like a product(game) with their RNG business model… and it seems like you don’t either after what you said about Aion.

Some people in some parts of the world might like the Nexon RNG gamble cash shop stuff.

I don’t.

Hoping Elder scrolls doesn’t do this or I’ll have to keep looking for a better game

Please stop saying Hardcore Gamers. Making me puke a bit in my mouth. Also not a fan of “White Knight” :P

lunshea.3261:

Mahaedros.7085:

I left WoW when they announced what I read about the talent changes coming in MoP after being disappointed with the simplifying of the talents that occurred earlier… Blizzard uses the term “balance” to hide the goal to keep subs subbing…

What’s the difference in having 10 or 50 talent points in games like WoW, if you are a dedicated PvE progress raider in WoW, you just check the forums for the flavor of the month cookie cutter build and copy that anyways; someone already did the math @ PTR.

Mahaedros.7085:

MMO’s are all about progression bro, self expression and growth via your character, the actual action you are doing is super boring

This is perhaps what YOU think a MMO should be all about – doing boring actions to get the gear to get to do even more boring actions. To me, this sounds like the ultimate waste of life and precious spare time, so I’m really glad Anet is trying to do something different with GW2

Lunshea i get the quotes system messed up from time to time but I don’t want people to think I said the second quote in your post :P edit please

Tamaki Revolution.3548:

Please stop saying Hardcore Gamers. Making me puke a bit in my mouth. Also not a fan of “White Knight” :P

Oh I don’t know. I sort of like the whole white knight “moniker”. It’s so anti who I am in real life, it gives me a chuckle every time I see it.

Mahaedros.7085:

Geotherma.2395:

Mahaedros.7085:

Geotherma.2395:

You guys just argue back and forth and back and forth. Elitists are ruining GW2, casuals are ruining GW2. you know whats ruining GW2? People who can’t stay the long haul, people who give up so easily on something because it isn’t perfect.

Because people can’t get mats, people think Anet nerfed the mats. When in actuality it is because people simply aren’t there in Orr now, and rather in Southsun. But people would rather believe Anet nerfed the drop rate rather than stick with pure logic, it is ridiculous. I’d rather people leave than listen to this garbage, so many games like Aion are so much worse and despicable representations of MMO’s, and yet here were are in forums about how terrible GW2 is when it is the only MMO that has tried new things and tried to cater to the changes in style of MMO players. I’m not some brainwashed fanboy trying to pump up the game, I simple call for peace and honesty and intelligence. Which seems to be the least common commodity in this game right now. I swear I’m not calling everyone stupid, but seriously when is the last time someone posted something remotely helpful that isn’t a black and white representation of either hatred or love for the game? Is there no median? Is there no discussion to be had among the populous? It just disheartens me to know that so many people young and old find more fun in berating others than fixing a simple problem in something so trivial and yet so enjoyable as an MMO.

“so many games like Aion are so much worse and despicable representations of MMO’s, and yet here were are in forums about how terrible GW2 is when it is the only MMO that has tried new things and tried to cater to the changes in style of MMO players. "

Man nothing against you Geotherma, I enjoy discussing things on the forums but I don’t want to see GW2 turn into Aion but it’s hard not to fear NCsoft doing just that

I love GW2 and have a lot of fun but I want to do all I can from to keep NCsoft from ruining it more than it has…

I don’t think NC soft/Nexon is evil, I just don’t like a product(game) with their RNG business model… and it seems like you don’t either after what you said about Aion.

Some people in some parts of the world might like the Nexon RNG gamble cash shop stuff.

I don’t.

Hoping Elder scrolls doesn’t do this or I’ll have to keep looking for a better game

But its an option, its a shiny little sparkly option on the screen. If people are that drawn to the RNG of silly skins maybe it isn’t the game who has the problems. There is a way to make money from MMO’s, people like Zynga make millions each day on the fact that people will play a chance game over a guarantee game every time. Can we blame a company for wanting money?Can we blame a developer for introducing a RNG system to special skins? No, because they simply haven’t found a more detailed, more proven way to do so. Simply selling everything at face value removes that worth from the product. If everyone can get a corvette for $50,000, everyone will. If it is hard to find, if it is expensive enough, it remains a prestigious item, an item of great worth. And as far as the game goes that is all it is, some shiny that is just a little more special than all the other easily obtainable shinnies.

I can, without a doubt promise there is some form or shape of idea that is better than the RNG boxes. Do I know what it is? No, I do not, but neither does anyone else. All they can do is complain because a statistical number, with fuzzy logic, with coding and randomly placed numbers based on pseudo random ideas is letting them down. Well we can’t all win the lottery and we can’t all be famous, but who cares. the future holds promise for those who play the game of chance, for those who stick with it. Those who give up, retire from obtaining such prestigious items are only being left out. Perhaps someday we will come upon a greater example of how a game can obtain wealth other than RNG boxes, other than chance. But as of right now it is making them money, is supporting future content, and is a burning force in the game.

Vayne.8563:

Tamaki Revolution.3548:

Please stop saying Hardcore Gamers. Making me puke a bit in my mouth. Also not a fan of “White Knight” :P

Oh I don’t know. I sort of like the whole white knight “moniker”. It’s so anti who I am in real life, it gives me a chuckle every time I see it.

Is it weird that I agree with you 80% of the time, but enjoy the rebuttals 100% of the time?

Mahaedros.7085:

Lunshea i get the quotes system messed up from time to time but I don’t want people to think I said the second quote in your post :P edit please

Ups, my bad. Should be correct now, sorry

the uprising.6317:

GW2 is not the CoD or LoL of MMO’s it was trying to be. Of being super accessible and casual, yet reward players for skill and hardcore play as well. And even LoL is ruined quite a bit from the catering to casuals as the game as a whole is watered down and there is a whole load of depth removed from the game its derived from, DotA, just to cut down on the frustration of new players.

But GW2 just doesn’t care about the hardcore gamer at all, another thread stated the game was elitist in the opposite sense in which this word is usually used, in that if you aren’t the ideal player for Anet, if you don’t play between X and Y hours and are a tryhard in general, the game wants you to bugger off, you’re going to ruin it for the casuals.

Anet finally added endgame vertical progression in the form of ascended gear, and all the casuals SCREAMED that this was adding a gear treadmill. So now Anet vows that there will be no further treadmill. So what is the hardcore endgame now? Back to twiddling your thumbs, and trying to get that legendary while you rot in diminishing returns. Anet realizes this is a problem and thus they are working on revamping their PvP offerings, which in reality, is the only way you will keep hardcore players playing without adding a PvE gear treadmill.

Atm GW2 is not rewarding in terms of time put into the game or the amount skill/effort you put into it, just so the casual player can have his day in the sun and achieve just as much as people more dedicated to the game. Whereas more healthy game design would allow players to play the game both casually and as a hardcore gamer, giving both methods of playing unique perks. Take LoL for instance, casual players are generally as competitive as everyone else and can get champions faster than hardcore gamers in terms amount of hours played thanks to the First Win of the Day bonus, while hardcore gamers will generally have more options to choose from, along with getting to hone their skills more.

Hardcore is skill. not farm.

If you think hardcore gaming means repeatedly farming, then..lol

Tamaki Revolution.3548:

Vayne.8563:

Tamaki Revolution.3548:

Please stop saying Hardcore Gamers. Making me puke a bit in my mouth. Also not a fan of “White Knight” :P

Oh I don’t know. I sort of like the whole white knight “moniker”. It’s so anti who I am in real life, it gives me a chuckle every time I see it.

Is it weird that I agree with you 80% of the time, but enjoy the rebuttals 100% of the time?

Not weird at all. A lot of people find me entertaining, even if they want to beat me to death with a trout.