Guild Wars 2

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Astralporing.1957:

Xenon.4537:

Astralporing.1957:

What 36% more overall effectiveness?

They said each stat is getting a 6% buff

Power gets a 6%
Precision gets a 6%
Condi gets a 6%
Toughness gets a 6%
Vitality gets a 6%
Healing Power gets 6%

6 * 6 = 36%

I am sorry, i don’t know how to say it any more delicately – you fail at math.
If each part of the whole got a 6% increase, the whole got a 6% increase as well. Not 36%
Except it didn’t, because the critical damage component got halved, so it’s now less than 6%.

lol — you beat me to it. It’s the law of association.

You get a 6% buff in stats (not a 36% buff). If you add all the stats together, it’s still just 6% higher than all the previous stats added together. This could be anywhere from 4.7% to 7.4% depending upon how ANet does the rounding on the individual pieces. I suspect some will be higher and lower to add up to exactly 6% overall on the armor.

I’m a bit disappointed in the 6% figure. I was hoping for more.

Assuming a 40% crit chance: A 30% loss of crit damage is 6.5% drop in DPS. Adding 6% to precision and power does not compensate (if you don’t believe me, pick some numbers and do the math).

Evalia.7103:

. . .
In other words, 404-228= 176 lost points. Sad results.
. . .
What % increase would you give to Celestial? Be it me, I would give it 11%. That would even out the loss and keep Celestial viability at around the same level it is now, which is how I believe it should be.

Best post in here, shows that +6% is by far not enough to keep the stat-budget of celestial at the same level.

But yes, math is hard and obviously not only for Xenon

Evalia.7103:

Up to 496 to all from 468 to all(+38x7 stat points). Down from 62% bonus critical damage to 496 ferocity, or to 33.0(6)% . Statistically speaking 62% would be 930 stat points in new terms. That means we are going to lose 404 points of critical damage and only get 38×6 = 228 points worth of other stats. In other words, 404-228= 176 lost points. Sad results.

Thank you for doing that bit of arithmetic. It’s obvious that many aren’t capable of it, including quite possibly Anet. Celestial and the other builds are being sacrificed to the gods of zerk, and those guys will continue to play their zerker gear.

But on the bright side…

There isn’t one here. Nerfnet will do as they please no matter how many correct numbers we put under their noses.

Becka Williams.4978:

Azreell.1568:

Xenon.4537:

So I decided to run some numbers after reading the critical damage blog post. I know what the majority of responses will be to this. After the patch, crit damage will be replaced with ferocity, and celestial gear will receive a 6% boost to it’s current stats. Due to rounding, I will post a low and high possible value. This is done using ascended quality.

Slot – original value – new low value – new high value

Helm —-——- 21 – 22 – 23
Shoulder —- 16 – 17 – 18
Chest —-—— 47 – 48 – 49
Glove —-—— 16 – 17 – 18
Pants —-——- 31 – 32 – 33
Boots —-—— 16 – 17 – 18
Amulet —-— 54 – 57 – 58
Ring —-——— 43 – 45 – 46
Ring —-——— 43 – 45 – 46
Earring —-— 38 – 40 – 41
Earring —-— 38 – 40 – 41
Back —-——- 22 – 23 – 24
1hander —- 42 – 44 – 45
2hander —- 83 – 87 – 88

Total with 1 handers = 469 – 491 – 505
Total with 2 handers = 468 – 490 – 503

The blog post says at level 80, it will take 15 ferocity to get 1% crit damage. With this in mind the new crit damage according to my numbers will be somewhere between 33.53% and 33.66%. This is in stark contrast to the old 62%. We are losing about 30% crit damage. However, all of the other stats combined are giving 36% more than before.

You may now commence discussion, comments, rage, and other activities.

My problem with this is I used the gem shop and rl money to make a fully ascended celes set with the intent for VERY high crit damage.

So I now no longer have what i purchased – I have something totally different.

Will Anet be giving people like me either a refund or the ability of a 1 time change on celes to a different stat set?

I think anything less would be insulting.

You won’t get a refund. I do think that a one time stat change for celestial gear might be nice. It was done for magic find gear, so the code’s already in the game

Oh, Becka…Celestial WAS magic find gear, and got no free stat change. It always gets the shaft.

Xenon.4537:

Xillllix.3485:

A game is all about fun. And the question is:

is it more fun to:
1: re-gear a GW2 ele (underpowered class, already quite broken) because our ascended set we spent time and money on got nerfed to the ground?
or
2: discover the world of a new big MMO?

Fun is subjective.

What is more fun?

1. The painful endeavor of abandoning one game to begin grinding through yet another mmo that may or may not be any good, and run the risk of coming full circle to the disappointing realization that you just wasted months of your life on something you don’t enjoy, while coming up with overly long sentences to use in pseudo-occam’s razer straw man arguments.

or

2. A new outlook on stats and gear.

Clearly number 1. You almost described our experience with this game perfectly. Just add that we see the game has great potential but instead everything is constantly nerfed. Once you realize the constant destruction of effort is designed to push us towards the gem shop, it’s time.

Is not about celestial gear but what about Traveler/Divinity runes? If they’re not changed they will go from 6/12% critical damage respectively to 2/4%without any stat increasing…

Ansau.7326:

Is not about celestial gear but what about Traveler/Divinity runes? If they’re not changed they will go from 6/12% respectively to 2/4%…

I’m sure you can kiss your investment in those runes goodbye.

Now then, imagine a mesmer with all celestial ascended armor, trinks and back piece, with a full set of Superior Runes of the Traveler. I’m sure you can figure out what this set has cost me to make, in time and gold.

My main character for PvE and WvW. My only character with agony resistance. My only character with a commander tag. I think I’m going to go throw up.

I want to echo the sentiment that the impact to Celestial gear is still disproportionate, even with the 6% increase (maybe less than 6% due to rounding) that ANet is planning. The least ANet can do to mitigate the disproportionate reduction in the relative benefits of Celestial gear is to provide an ability to swap it to another set.

It’s nice that ANet is providing some information ahead of time to prepare the player base, but their information on the Ferocity change on Celestial didn’t include actual numbers. ANet didn’t disclose that the overall stat reduction to Celestial gear ranges from 9% to 13.5% (the reduction all focused in Ferocity, a stat regarded as very useful as it contributes to DPS) where ANet is planning to compensate with a 6% increase to the other stats (which stats are of varying utility based on profession/build, and the 6% may actually yield less due to rounding).

To illustrate, an example would be a two-handed greatsword, ascended with Celestial stats. Current stats are 83 for six stats and 11% in crit damage (which translates to 165 in Ferocity based on 15 Ferocity for every 1%). Post-change, the expectation is that all seven stats, including Ferocity, will be 88 (based on the 6% increase ANet referenced). The effective crit damage/Ferocity stat will have been reduced from an effective 165 to 88, a net reduction of 77. Based on a pre-change stat total of 663 (where 11% crit damage is 165 Ferocity), that’s a reduction of 11.6% vs. a gain of 6% on the six other stats.

A comparable two-handed greatsword, ascended with Berserker stats would be expected to have a 3.4% reduction overall (with no corresponding increase). Current stats are Power 188, Precision 134, and Crit Damage of 10% (which translates to 150 in Ferocity based on 15 Ferocity for every 1%). Post-change, the expectation is that Ferocity will be 134 to match Precision, with an overall stat redution of 16. Based on a pre-change stat total of 472 (where 10% crit damage is 150 Ferocity), that’s a net reduction of 3.4%.

A more fair outcome for Celestial gear would be a corresponding reduction in Ferocity as similarly applied to Berserker gear (without any compensation of 6% for other stats), so that in the above example, Ferocity for the Celestial greatsword would be 147 instead of going down to 88 or perhaps reduced 134 to match the reduced stat for Ferocity in Berserker gear. (It’s strange that Celestial gear can provide a higher crit damage stat than Berserker gear, but Celestial gear seems to have its own progression scheme.) However, this result goes against the elegant design of having the same value for all the stats in Celestial gear when it goes from 6 stats and crit damage to 7 stats.

Alternatively, ANet could consider an increase higher than 6% to compensate for the reduction to Celestial stats. It should be noted that due to rounding, it’s likely that stat increases will actually be much less than 6% post-change (for an ascended helmet, the stat will likely go from 21 to 22, an effective increase of 4.76% not 6% and the reduction to the stats without the 4.76% bonus is 13.45% based on the reduction from crit damage to Ferocity [3% or 45 reduced to 22] for a net reduction of 9.94% – if there is a round up to 23 as a possibility as mentioned in the OP, the net reduction goes down to 5.85% after the increase is applied). The net decrease in stats for different Celestial gear (ascended) will likely effectively be between 3.7% to 10% for the different gear types, this is after the 6% bonus is applied (with most gear having a net reduction of between 5% to 7% -after- the 6% bonus is applied). It doesn’t necessarily make sense why the net reduction to Celestial gear should ever even exceed the 3.4% reduction that is applied to the overall stats of Berserker gear.

In summary, Celestial gear seems likely to be disproportionately impacted, even with the 6% bonus, because of the need for elegant design of having matching values for stats as opposed to a more fair reduction specific to the crit damage/Ferocity stat yielding a more proportional net reduction. (This is on top of the prior reduction in net benefits for Celestial gear compared with other sets from the removal of magic find bonus due to the change of having account-bound magic find bonuses.)

At the very least, ANet should mitigate the buyer’s remorse that a number of players may feel from the disproportionate impact on Celestial gear, by allowing players to at least change to another stat bonus set, especially given that some players may not have as great a utility for having an all-stat bonus combination (where the big selling point to Celestial gear was the nice crit damage stat).

Evalia.7103:

I am observing little math mistakes in the post.
Let’s just “recount” and calculate an approximation:
Helm: 21 × 1.06 = 22.26; 22, 23
Shoulders: 16 × 1.06 = 16.96; 16, 17
Chest: 47 × 1.06 = 49.82; 49, 50
Gloves: 16 × 1.06 = 16.96; 16, 17
Legs: 31 × 1.06 = 32.86; 32, 33
Boots: 16 × 1.06 = 16.96; 16, 17
Amulet: 54 × 1.06 = 57.24; 57, 58
Ring(1): 43 × 1.06 = 45.58; 45, 46
Ring(2): 43 × 1.06 = 45.58; 45, 46
Trinket(1): 38 × 1.06 = 40.28; 40, 41
Trinket(2): 38 × 1.06 = 40.28; 40, 41
Back: 22 × 1.06 = 23.32; 23, 24
Weapon(2H) 83 × 1.06 = 87.98; 87, 88
Weapon(1H) 42 × 1.06 = 44.52; 44, 45( even though rounds up to 45, it is pretty obvious why it should be 44 if 2H is 88)
Pure Value: (83 + 22 + 38×2 + 43×2 + 54 + 16×3 31 + 47 + 21) x 1.06 = 468 × 1.06 = 496.08; expected 496
Up to 496 to all from 468 to all(38×7 stat points). Down from 62% bonus critical damage to 496 ferocity, or to 33.0(6)% . Statistically speaking 62% would be 930 stat points in new terms. That means we are going to lose 404 points of critical damage and only get 38×6 = 228 points worth of other stats. In other words, 404-228= 176 lost points. Sad results.

I don’t have time to double-check your math, but bear in mind that other gear with crit damage stats are also losing about 10%. With Ferocity being 15 points per 1%, that’s 150 points lost. So it’s not 176 lost points vs 0 lost points. It’s 176 lost points vs 150 lost points if you’re comparing celestial on the basis of direct damage.

Celestial was always too generalized to really be useful as a full set. To be effective you had to (1) want bonuses to nearly all the attributes, and (2) mix in a few pieces of other armor to emphasize the stats you wanted (unless you actually wanted a completely generalized character who was equally good (bad) at everything). Done correctly, you’d end up with more stat points in the attributes you wanted, compared to if you mixed and matched non-Celestial pieces.

Or put another way, the ratio of attribute points you get on regular gear is 1.4, 1.0, 1.0. = 3.4 total. Celestial is 7 × 0.62= 4.34 total.

That means if you write off one attribute (e.g. healing power) as a “wasted” attribute (not using 0.62), celestial still comes out ahead overall. 4.34 – 0.62 = 3.72, which is still greater than 3.4. The problem being if you write off two attributes (say, healing power and condition damage), 3.72 – 0.62 = 3.1, which is less than the 3.4 you get with regular gear. In other words, if you wanted just 5 of 7 attributes, you’re better off mixing and matching armor which gives just those 5 attributes, rather than using celestial. Celestial is only advantageous if you want 6 or 7 attributes.

A 6% increase would bump celestial’s total to 4.6 (or 0.657 per attribute). Write off two attributes and its total is 4.6 * 5 / 7 = 3.29. Still less than 3.4, so still not worth it unless you’re deriving value from at least 6 of those 7 attributes.

IMHO to really make celestial worthwhile, they need to split the difference. Regular attribute equipment is best if you want 3 or 4 attributes. Celestial is superior for 6 or 7 attributes. And the two are equal for 5 attributes. 3.4 * 7 / 5 = 4.76 total for celestial, or 0.68 per stat. In other words, they should’ve bumped up its stats by 10%.

Just use Celestial on armor and Zerk on trinkets and you will be fine after the patch.

Solandri.9640:

IMHO to really make celestial worthwhile, they need to split the difference. Regular attribute equipment is best if you want 3 or 4 attributes. Celestial is superior for 6 or 7 attributes. And the two are equal for 5 attributes. 3.4 * 7 / 5 = 4.76 total for celestial, or 0.68 per stat. In other words, they should’ve bumped up its stats by 10%.

Agreed — I was hoping for 10% increased, not 6%.

Antares.2586:

Just use Celestial on armor and Zerk on trinkets and you will be fine after the patch.

That suggestion is worthless for players that already have Celestial gear.

Oh well, first they nerfed MF% straight off of the gear, then its nerf to crit dmg and give it a joke of a 6% stat buff. Time to break out the salvage kits and just get my ectos back out of this worthless stat item.

Travis the Terrible.4739:

Zutha.5091:

Actually i currently have 72% crit dmg with my ele.

After the patch it’ll be around 50%., That’s a 22% lose in damage. No amount of power/pres/cd/vit/tough could make up for that in pvp terms.

Considering the general rule is max 10% for zerker… it’s far high for celestial user which contains a time BLOCK on crafting.

It’s not a loss of 22% in damage. Unless you literally crit every hit.

Even then its just 11%.

He now makes 222% damage and will do 200% after patch. Thats like 111% vs. 100%, so a loss of 11% and that also only with 100% critical chance. With 50% chance its just 5,5%.

You can’t salvage ascended items.

Heh … if I get back to playing the game(I only do dailies now) I might actually make a celestial set. Why? With the trait reset being available everywhere I can carry one set to cover all situations instead of having to carry multiple sets. It’s never going to beat or equal more specialized sets though.

I can say this:

Changing functionality of a GRINDY equipment already obtained by players is total disrespect towards players and totally unprofessional.

At least if there is not balancing reasons that clearly are not celestial case being Underpowered.

We are still treated as test servers for china launch

A bunker d/d ele will lose about 5% in base damage (8% when fury is up) and gain 28 points in condition damage, 28 points in healing power, and 3% in effective hp (armor * hp).

LordByron.8369:

I can say this:

Changing functionality of a GRINDY equipment already obtained by players is total disrespect towards players and totally unprofessional.

This is after all an MMO, and things like that happen all the times in MMOs. Just look at all the raid-centric MMOs out there, where people grind the whole year to finally have the best stuff .. and than .. BAMM .. new expansion .. new level cap .. green stuff is suddenly nearly as good as what you raided for the last year.

beldin
Its totally false.

You forgot this is one of the few games with stats tied to equipment…and was designed with easy to change equipment in mind…(until some guy had the brilliant idea of ascended equip….obviously ignoring how the game works).

The change in celestial functionality is unique only to celestial and wupwup…..
Other players will still have the same functionality..

Its like taking a dps mage and changing it into a healer after 2 years of game….people would be mad….

LordByron.8369:

beldin
Its totally false.

You forgot this is one of the few games with stats tied to equipment…and was designed with easy to change equipment in mind…(until some guy had the brilliant idea of ascended equip….obviously ignoring how the game works).

Equipment had stats in all MMOs i’ve played so far, the only difference is here that you have more different stats to choose maybe.

And the whole introduction of ascended gear was of course a bad idea (for me), and i doubt also that many players here crafted more than one set of ascended armor with different stats for 1 chars, and don’t let us talk about alts.

Personally i only crafted 1 piece of ascended armor, and that was a medium chest, and yes it was even celestial, but i really don’t care because i made it just for the look.

Also i have 5 characters now with 6 runes of the traveller, and i also don’t really care about the stat change, since if i would do as a min/maxer i have never bought that runes at all. Main point for me is however the 25% speed and the 15% boon duration.

Also like i wrote bevor, a lot people just do the wrong math. 50% crit-damage against 70% is just a difference of 10% effective damage, and that also only at 100% crit-rate.

LordByron.8369:

Changing functionality of a GRINDY equipment already obtained by players is total disrespect towards players and totally unprofessional

Exactly. Despite all the uproar over rolling back character progression in the Fractals fiasco, Anet have not learned a single thing, and gearing up characters with time constrained grindy gear is also character progression.

GG Anet. Roll us back some more.

juno.1840:

Antares.2586:

Just use Celestial on armor and Zerk on trinkets and you will be fine after the patch.

That suggestion is worthless for players that already have Celestial gear.

No, it’s not. It’s the Ascended armor that’s difficult to craft.

You can get Ascended rings through fractals,
an other trinkets with daily / monthly / Guild bounty.

It’s about two months job, but it’s not costly.

Xenon.4537:

I do believe players deserve a 1-time free stat change, especially those who crafted ascended celestial.

How ‘bout those of us who crafted ascended Berserker? At least you guys are getting more survivable, we’re just taking a plain nerf.

ascended berserker doesn t get functionality change…

Its still the DPS set

Celestial changes from a balanced set to a tanky set..

Its not a nerf its a CHANGE…. like if zerker became soldier.

Beldin.5498:

LordByron.8369:

I can say this:

Changing functionality of a GRINDY equipment already obtained by players is total disrespect towards players and totally unprofessional.

This is after all an MMO, and things like that happen all the times in MMOs. Just look at all the raid-centric MMOs out there, where people grind the whole year to finally have the best stuff .. and than .. BAMM .. new expansion .. new level cap .. green stuff is suddenly nearly as good as what you raided for the last year.

Big difference here is that many people used the gem shop to craft this gear.

Also, What you just stated in a progressive grind – Something everyone on these forums defended tooth and nail that GW2 wasn’t about.

The problem as I said though is celes is changing fundamentally – Not just a nerf in stats. So those who used Rl money to craft this gear no longer have what they originally purchased.

That’s a very large problem.

LordByron.8369:

ascended berserker doesn t get functionality change…

Its still the DPS set

Celestial changes from a balanced set to a tanky set..

Its not a nerf its a CHANGE…. like if zerker became soldier.

Celestial change from barely balanced to mostly useless.

Azreell.1568:

I think anything less would be insulting.

Welcome to the world of Anet.