Guild Wars 2

So I figure im about a week away from accomplishing everything that I want to accomplish in GW2. I’m not going to list everything that I have done because its not everything that exists in the game. Ive had a great time so this isnt another post moaning about the lack of things to do, merely pointing out the fact that I believe GW2 may have an issue.

Notice that word- may. This is from my point of view and therefore my opinion and isnt based on any data other than my own. Now ive enjoyed myself immensely but if I compare my time here to my time in past MMOs that ive played I was never without something to do. I never once reached a point where I could say ‘ive done all that I want to do’ due to the fact that most other MMOs have content that is designed to keep players playing for a sizable amount of time. BEFORE this content runs out, new content is added and this new content lasts a long time.

With GW2 it has been designed as a casual MMO. I understood this when I bought the game and I understand it now. The issue I see with GW2 is the fact that catering to the casual player seems to be getting in the way of certain aspects of the game. For example I dont personally understand why there are so few items in the cash shop 5 months after release when the whole idea of a cash shop is to get people to buy gems.

Dont get me wrong, im not saying ANET need to release a content patch every week. Im merely saying that maybe they shouldve thought more about certain aspects of the game before release. Crafting for instance- not only can you get master crafter in a day but you can do so without even leaving Lions Arch providing you have the gold. Not only that, its close to useless as it stands. In my opinion it should be massively hard to get master crafter, involving gathering recipe’s from all corners of Tyria including dungeons and whatnot. Why make it so easy?

The same goes for leveling. 1-80 is painfully easy and this has been my biggest disappointment in GW2. I nearly quit the game a week after launch due to this fact but I found things to do and carried on (im glad I did). I see many people with 2/3/4/5+ characters all at 80 and I just cry inside….a game should not be this easy! This brings me onto an important point- every other MMO that ive played ive become very much immersed in. With GW2 it has and will always feel like a game with story segments. I dont feel anything special for the game because the immersion is so low.

Last thing on my mind is future patches designed to make the game world more populated. I personally think that this should have been thought of before launch or at the very least a month or two post launch, certainly not five. I like the fact that ANET are listening to what their players want but there are some basic things that make me question why they needed pointing out in the first place. Boss mechanics for instance- the fact that most bosses/vets/champs in the game have only a handful of moves and a high HP pool. Surely the devs knew that this was a mistake? To me it seems as though they were rushed for time pre-launch and now that they have a little time free theyre going back and fixing aspects that need it. Had they have done this before or close to launch they wouldve had many people praising those bosses. Now it seems that players might go back to an area theyve been to many times before, fight the boss once, say ‘that was interesting’ and never come back again.

So i’ll say it again so all can be clear- ive enjoyed my time here immensely and it was well worth every penny. But for the first time ever today I questioned whether id buy an expansion should they release it this year and this made me sad. Up until now it was a case of “Shut up and take my money!” but im a little worried that future content will be…well, watered down….. like the current game. Im afraid that i’ll whizz through the content in no time at all….

Dead horse feels no pain.

Furthermore I get the impression your references about the casual player are made with certain je ne sais quoi ambivalence but the fact of the matter is casual’s are the bread and butter of mmo’s not hardcore gear grinders.

How many games less than 6 months old have left you with a feeling of nothing to do? I’ve played mmo’s from launch since 1997 and in the grand scheme of things they’ve all had about the same amount of content this far after release the difference between all of those and GW2 is the leveling curve and this is where I think you get the feeling theres nothing to do since there is no leveling curve in GW2.

I value your opinion on the game Thereon.3495 and will certainly not try to pursuade you otherwise about how you feel about this game. What I can seee happening for players like yourself is that you will get to a point where you are feeling like you have accomplished everything you want to for now and then will quit/take a break. I think this is actually what Anet may want from the “hardcore” players, to try and ween them off the bad habits of those other mmos that have you needing to spend every free minute of your life in game.

Personaly for myself I would call myself one of these “hardcore” no life gamers of the past and probably still now as I do have a lot of time to play not only this game a lot but games in general. My background in games of this nature are examples such as playing Runescape for 11/12 years , Final Fantasy 11/14 a little bit and a few others like Perfectworld for a year or so. Now if any of you have played Runescape (especially in the very early days) you would know how much of a grind that game is/was (not so much now but far more than GW 1 or 2 put together).

Now when it comes to GW2 I am loving that it is designed more for the casual player. Simply because honestly I think I need a break from “those” kinds of games that “need” you to spend every second of your free time in life to get anywhere in the game or to get to points in the game where you can actually enjoy it. Having said that I am still spending a ton of time here. However I am spending that time doing things that I like to do, that I find fun. I am loving that I am not “forced” to do this or that to get to the point to enjoy the game or to be at the same lvls as others to be able to compete fairly with them.

I guess I’ll stop rambling now lol. Anywho in summary, go take a break, find something else “fun” to do. Keep an eye on here and I’m sure things will be added in time that will bring you back for a little bit more fun. Maybe not to keep you here permantly but for a bit of fun before you go again. Because honestly I think that’s the kind of game this is and I don’t think thats a bad thing.

Oboy this is going to become the kind of thread where there are four pages of paragraph long replies

Dont get me wrong, 6 months is a good amount of time for a game to last me so im not complaining, merely comparing it to past MMOs that I have played. All have kept me going a long way past the six months line. What I will admit is yes, the majority of other MMOs I have played…in fact all but one… I never did reach the highest level bracket due to the steep curve at higher levels. I do miss leveling and I personally think that the lack of any sort of curve has caused me to feel as though I have ‘finished the game’.

The point im trying to make with the above post is that ive enjoyed GW2 a hell of a lot and yet im still wondering whether I want to buy an expansion. This is a personal opinion, but to me this seems to suggest that something isnt right with the way GW2 has been designed. However it could also mean that players like me arent suited to GW2, and for every one of me there are 10 that think differently. I hope thats the case because id hate to see GW2 fail.

As for taking a break, I do worry that I will find another game(s) that I will spend my time on and not want to come back to GW2. As it stands im unemployed so have spent a lot of time playing GW2. When I do get a job (urgh, the good old UK eh?!) i’ll have a lot less time and GW2 might play second fiddle to another game. Im not saying this as though GW2 has to keep me amused at all times, im merely wondering how many are out there like me who are of the same mind. As I say id hate for GW2 to run into troubles regardless of whether im playing or not as its a great game with a lot of potential.

Thereon.3495:

Now ive enjoyed myself immensely but if I compare my time here to my time in past MMOs that ive played I was never without something to do. I never once reached a point where I could say ‘ive done all that I want to do’ due to the fact that most other MMOs have content that is designed to keep players playing for a sizable amount of time. BEFORE this content runs out, new content is added and this new content lasts a long time.

In other words, other MMOs treat their players as addicts, who are expected to do nothing but grind levels and then grind gear, only to see an expansion being released and then be expected to grind more levels and then grind more gear, while waiting for the next expansion.

That is bad game design. It’s very easy to understand why MMO companies chose to go with that specific design – it keeps grinders paying a monthly fee, grind is the easiest possible kind of content to design, and so on.

It’s still bad game design, and as seen recently, it simply doesn’t cut it. All games based on that model died or are dying. There isn’t an infinite amount of people willing to be dealt with as if they were addicts willing to accept any mediocre game, and so this classic model of MMOs has led to failure after failure.

GW2 is trying to follow a different model. As they have said on their Manifesto, GW2 has been made more for those who don’t like classic MMOs than for those who like them (which is basically a nice way of saying that GW2 has been made for players who want to have fun, not for grinders). As such, it’s not going to be an infinite and demeaning time sink as other MMOs are.

Why is it assumed that leveling is grinding? If they havent already, the creative brains of the gaming world should easily be able to figure out a way to create leveling that is enjoyable, varied and different while not having to create an infinitely large game world. I dont know if any have come close to this so far but its surely not an impossible task?

Achievement based leveling springs to my mind and im an unemployed bum!

As for getting to max level to become the most powerful….well with the segregation of PvP and PvE why is that an issue? With just PvE I dont see why those that put in more effort cannot gain an advantage providing that advantage is limited in some way as to limit the rewards of a grinder.

Thereon.3495:

Why is it assumed that leveling is grinding?

Because that’s the point of what MMO players call “leveling”.

In classic MMOs, leveling is just grinding levels – a way developers use to keep content gated and to slow down player progression to the end game, when the level grind ends and the gear grind begins. It’s not supposed to be fun (it’s basically a bunch of quest hubs with “kill 10 rats” quests) and it’s not supposed to have anything to do with the “end game” (since it’s more solo focused, and as such all professions have to do a bit of all roles).

In Guild Wars 2, this split doesn’t exist. There is no “leveling” and “end content” – the entire game is end content, as what you will be doing and how you will be playing when you reach the level cap is exactly the same thing you were doing when going from level 1 to the cap. In this, GW2 is more similar to a single player RPG (in which the goal is to have fun) as opposed to classic MMOs (in which the goal is to grind).

Thereon.3495:

Why is it assumed that leveling is grinding? If they havent already, the creative brains of the gaming world should easily be able to figure out a way to create leveling that is enjoyable, varied and different while not having to create an infinitely large game world. I dont know if any have come close to this so far but its surely not an impossible task?

Achievement based leveling springs to my mind and im an unemployed bum!

If you simply enjoy the leveling process, shouldn’t you be happy that GW2 has no level cap? You can continue to level indefinitely and the game keep tracks of it and rewards you by allowing you to purchase things with your levels. For seven years GW1 lived and thrived with this model among casuals and hardcores alike, who enjoy the process of leveling.

If that does not sound attractive to you, then you do not enjoy the leveling process for the sake of leveling, but maybe you want some kind of power over others who did not spend so much time leveling? That is also already in game, and will continue to expand via ascended gears.

My point (which you may not be getting) is that leveling is often a grind in many MMOs(kill 10 rats), but doesnt have to be a grind so long as the ‘quests’ involved are challenging, fun and worth doing, leading to the goal of max level.

As for GW2 and its ‘all round end-game’ I understand what it is, believe me. When I bought the game I knew it was different, the entire game being end-game content. But with what I am feeling and what I personally have seen and heard in game im starting to question whether this can actually work given that people are running out of things to do. Youre right, GW2 is more like a single player RPG than a MMO and its in this fact that im a little worried. I could of course be wrong, I dont know the figures. I could of course be in the minority and GW2 could be thriving. I’ll be very pleased if this is the case.

As for the leveling process I enjoy it isnt about gaining power/advantage over other players, its the sense of progression I enjoy. Gaining skill points isnt progressing when youve no reason to spend them. Sure if I was aiming for a Legendary this post wouldnt have gone up for another month but it still wouldve gone up eventually.

One thing I should make clear at this point- leveling is one aspect where I think the game lacks depth but it isnt the overall point of this thread, just one of many. If I were to pick the main culprit for my waning interest its the lack of immersion brought on by the lack of depth in general.

You know there is a way to actually “level” a char as you want and to keep it challenging.

It may seem “boring” or whatnot and I am not sure how much of what you want it to give would actually do so but it is a choice. Start a new char, AVOID all personal quests and events. Just purely KILL for exp, and as such I guess you could say that you are grinding for levels/loot to sell. This could actually be fun.

What I find funny when playing the game is I still overhear people saying that it “takes too long to level up in this game”. O.O

Thereon.3495:

As for the leveling process I enjoy it isnt about gaining power/advantage over other players, its the sense of progression I enjoy.

Gaining skill points isnt progressing when youve no reason to spend them.

This two statements are conflicting. Progression = Your skill point count goes up by 1. Spending those points = power increase over others. “Power” here can be interpreted as stat increase, but can also mean a status increase (such as more customization options). In any case it’s an advantage over others (you can do something that people without those skill points cannot).

Also, your “main point” about “shallowness” is still too vague for others to interpret. Either you haven’t give much thought to it yourself or you didn’t communicate it effectively.

I do agree the crafting system could be better. I feel it should be more interactive instead of just clicking and watching a bar fill up. As for the leveling, I don’t think its too easy. At the pace it’s at now, you can just play the game normally and your level keeps up. You don’t have to stop progressing just so you can level up, which I feel is how it should be if its targeting a casual audience. Besides, I feel like level isn’t supposed to be an important factor, just something in place so you can’t skip to Orr right away.

Thereon.3495:

The same goes for leveling. 1-80 is painfully easy and this has been my biggest disappointment in GW2. I nearly quit the game a week after launch due to this fact but I found things to do and carried on (im glad I did). I see many people with 2/3/4/5+ characters all at 80 and I just cry inside….a game should not be this easy! This brings me onto an important point- every other MMO that ive played ive become very much immersed in. With GW2 it has and will always feel like a game with story segments. I dont feel anything special for the game because the immersion is so low.

Leveling isnt easy its just fast compared to most MMO’s because you don’t need to grind for a ridiculous amount of xp which becomes tedious and pointless. I guess immersions is a matter of opinion because i feel very immersed every time i enter a new area or fight a new boss. Its only hen you begin to repeat the area multiple times that it can lose its immersion

I leveled my main character without rushing and reached 80 within 8 days or so and I cant recall dying more than a handful of times. I also did this completely solo while exploring many more maps than I ‘needed’ to explore just for the fun of it. I didnt level up crafting until I was 80 so the full amount of xp was gained in the ‘actual world’. Last week I leveled my alt….took 5 days to reach 80 because I didnt explore, just moved from map to map. I died 3 times and again solo’d most of the content.

Personally id call this both fast and easy. It could even be improved by slowing down the leveling to such a pace that completing most maps would be needed to level up. As it stands you complete just a handful and then go back and do the rest post-80 which is even easier as the down-leveling is ever so slightly broken!

But as I say this is just one issue I have with the game…

Erasculio.2914:

Thereon.3495:

Now ive enjoyed myself immensely but if I compare my time here to my time in past MMOs that ive played I was never without something to do. I never once reached a point where I could say ‘ive done all that I want to do’ due to the fact that most other MMOs have content that is designed to keep players playing for a sizable amount of time. BEFORE this content runs out, new content is added and this new content lasts a long time.

In other words, other MMOs treat their players as addicts, who are expected to do nothing but grind levels and then grind gear, only to see an expansion being released and then be expected to grind more levels and then grind more gear, while waiting for the next expansion.

That is bad game design. It’s very easy to understand why MMO companies chose to go with that specific design – it keeps grinders paying a monthly fee, grind is the easiest possible kind of content to design, and so on.

Truer words have not been spoken on these forums. I’ve noticed that everyone who’s complained about endgame in GW2 and given any indication as to what they wanted has described the same thing: a drug. they don’t want a quality experience, they want an addiction. the idea that a game co could create quality, nongrindy content at the rate people consume it is a deluded argument that people use to “prove” the developers did something “wrong”(ie: something they didn’t like).

people are unwilling to admit a never-ending supply of non-grindy content is a physical impossibility because it shatters their whole premise. it cannot be done. so GW2 went with quality & people are screeching for their addiction.

Chances are we’ll see slower leveling in expansions, but this is a situation of “its too late to fix it”. I, for one, enjoyed the leveling speed of this game. I hit 80 at a pace that I considered both fun and rewarding. BUT, I understand that it caused a world of hurt for Arenanet since a bunch of folks hit 80 within a few days of release and then went nuts cause they wanted more stuff to do right that second.

However, what is done is done. Raising the requirements for 1-80 now would just slap the face of everyone who hasn’t hit 80 yet. All of us get to run around in our 80s with our exotics and they have to do twice the work to get here. Plus, I hit 80 and finished nearly all the hearts I ran into along the way. There just wouldn’t be enough hearts >_>

However, I imagine 80-85 will be much slower. Arenanet probably won’t want to deal with that level of QQ next time around, so they will buy themselves time to get more content out by slowing down the masses with a longer level time.

Thereon.3495:

Why is it assumed that leveling is grinding? If they havent already, the creative brains of the gaming world should easily be able to figure out a way to create leveling that is enjoyable, varied and different while not having to create an infinitely large game world. I dont know if any have come close to this so far but its surely not an impossible task?

Grinding is not a way of life for single-player games that are story focused.
KH, Tales of, Final Fantasy’s these are popular main stream RPG’s normally a person will not meet the level cap when they beat the game, and they don’t care.

Anet’s right to improve it’s current world (including Lost Shores, soooo barren), it’ll help make it nostalgic. They should come up with some kind of rebirth system to replay the story or a “hard” mode for the story and players will want to do that again (like replaying their single-player games) and that will keep them longer as well.

Did you know that the stats between an ascended item, and an exotic item, are just several points apart….meaning that outside of fractals, ascended gear only gives you something like a < 1-2% advantage…….. Sorry buddy, but ascended gear has no affect on WvW at all…..

Well I see lots of people saying that im ‘moaning’ but I really didnt want to give that impression as ive had a great time so far. This thread was more to highlight a potential problem with GW2, that even those that have loved the game so far arent sure whether they will play it going forward.

I did used to be be addicted to MMOs, that much is sure. I remember logging on as soon as I got up, eating pizza/ready made sandwiches all the time so I didnt have to break for long periods. Id then play until 6/7/8am before getting about 4 hours of sleep. The main reason for this? Having to grab parties where I could so I was able to level up and not fall behind the pack. So dont get me wrong, while I do miss leveling I do understand a need for a limit. Its just that, in my opinion, GW2 sets this limit too low. I guess this wouldnt be such an issue had they have implemented the down-leveling system properly. This was a bit of a disappointment if im honest.

Erasculio.2914:

In other words, other MMOs treat their players as addicts, who are expected to do nothing but grind levels and then grind gear, only to see an expansion being released and then be expected to grind more levels and then grind more gear, while waiting for the next expansion.

That is bad game design. It’s very easy to understand why MMO companies chose to go with that specific design – it keeps grinders paying a monthly fee, grind is the easiest possible kind of content to design, and so on.

It’s still bad game design, and as seen recently, it simply doesn’t cut it. All games based on that model died or are dying. There isn’t an infinite amount of people willing to be dealt with as if they were addicts willing to accept any mediocre game, and so this classic model of MMOs has led to failure after failure.

LOL .. I find it hard to think of games like WOW, LOTRO, FFXI (to name 3 I’ve played for years and am still playing, along with Rift and now GW2) are ‘dying’.

They’re all a level grind followed by a gear grind, the end-games are ‘raid or die’, from the viewpoint of this GW 2 newbie, Ascended gear and FoTM seems to be taking GW2 to exactly the same place.

Kraggy.4169:

LOL .. I find it hard to think of games like WOW, LOTRO, FFXI (to name 3 I’ve played for years and am still playing, along with Rift and now GW2) are ‘dying’

WoW has been rather obviously dying; it’s going to take a long while to die considering how big it is, but it is and has been hemorrhaging players. LotRO was never a big success in the first place, but the number of subscribers took a deep fall right before the change to a free to play model (source). FF XI has always been a niche game.

Age of Conan… LOL! Rift is so successful that its Christmas gift to its developers was a bunch of lay-offs in the middle of december. The Old Republic has been acknowledged by EA as a failure. The Secret World has changed business model and has forced Funcom to do a lot of lay-offs. Tera has just changed to free to play due to a lack of subscriptions.

Classic MMOs are dying.

Grinders, farmers, addicts and exploiters are not enough to make a MMO successful.

Guild Wars 2 needs to be something different to survive, regardless of what the very vocal and very small minority that wants more of the same has to say about it.

I’m working on a Legendary and won’t be done for 3-4 months at the earliest. Plenty still to do, and after that I’ll see about other stuff. The game in its current form still has longevity for me, although I don’t play more than a couple of hours a day at the most.

More hardcore players ? Some friends who play LOTRO maxed their GW2 characters in 2 weeks and then went back to raiding in the other game. It’s kind of a different crowd. Might have problems keeping up with their needs, content-wise.

As I’m an old Guild Wars 1 players I would like to share my thoughts too…
I agree with what you wrote.
I’ve played since betas… I’ve 2 level 80 characters and I don’t feel the need to max-level any more characters.
I’ve 3800 achievements points… And like you I feel I’m reaching an end.
I’ve run all the dungeons many many times, I’ve a tier 3 cultural armor (and many dungeon set and weapons), quite all the minipets, 100% map, almost finished all the jumpings, minidungeons, bosses… Crafting is boring so I leveled just 2 disciplines. I’ve more ascended rings than I need… I don’t feel the need to craft a legendary weapon cause it’s only a matter of boring gold-farming (if it was for karma-token-badges… I’d have already crafted it).
Now when I log in-game I ask myself “what do I do this evening?”… And trust me, it’s hard to find an aswer…
It’s only 5 months after release… I played GW1 for 3-4 years… and I feel it was really a more rewarding game! There were so many TITLES and EVERYONE could see you Title written under your character name. It was really prestigious to wear some titles…
Here… Who could notice your title? When you are in Lion’s Arch no one clicks on you to read your title. The only thing someone can notice is the star near your name if you have 100% map.
People need reasons to play, goals… And titles were an important goal in GW1.
Rewards? They were really really better in GW1… Every boss could drop a unique weapon! Every day you where wondering around the maps to kill bosses for the drop, opening chests, mapping and vanquish for the titles.
The coop mission were challenging (if you want to get the title)… there was even hard-mode for PvE!
And even if I wasn’t a great fan of PvP I enjoyed many times Fort Aspenwood fast 12vs12; Alliances Battles and Hero’s Ascent… I don’t even speak about GvG, the best PvP mode.
Where are the designers who put in game all these goals for hardcore players?

As I say it could just be that im of the older generation that enjoys parts of the game that others would call grinding. But there are many here that think adding elements of other games would be a bad thing and I dont think that is true so long as these elements are given a GW2 spin.

Going forward I hope that any increase in level cap would be met by a different way to reach those levels, be it achievement based or via some other method. I recognise the fact that many do not want to ‘grind’ out levels (despite the fact I enjoy that) but the current route of leveling, in my opinion, is far too easy so an achievement based system of leveling could suit both parties.

It’s all about how you play the game and what you want from the game. I enjoy this game, but I’m the casual player. I consider the game one of several different entertainment options. I level a character (I have eight of them) 5 levels and then I’m done for that day. I may play every day, or I may only play once in a week.
This is very different compared to my partner who plays roughly 16 hours a day. He is a completionist and will continue to play until he reaches his goal…whether it’s farming a specific amount of coin, receiving100% map completion, or maxing an acheivement/title.

I feel no hurry to get anything done. I’ll get done what I want to get done….eventually.
:-)