Guild Wars 2

Hey guys.

Ill start saying I’m a huge fan of the game. I love the game, I think it has quite a few positive aspects, but it’s not perfect.

One of the biggest things I have a problem with is the Combat Depth, Ill explain it a little bit:

Coming from Gw1 we all saw a more tactical approach of combat. I know Gw2 is a different game and it’s more agile kind of combat. But All enemies usually behave the same, I don’t see any AI when it comes down to killing enemies.

I know there is no aggro, no tank or stuff like that but if you look closely the way that the game present us with difficulty is usually with Stronger Hits (Aka Hits like a truck) or Huge Pool Health. Of course there are some mechanics sometimes involved which is awesome, but rarely the game goes away from this.

My question is, does anyone else feels this?
Don’t anyone thinks that the PvE combat should be more like the PvP? With enemies also using a more “select” skill bar, with the capability of dodging too perhaps?
This comes from a player with /age 590 hours of the game, so don’t get me wrong I like the game, but I’ve been much more inclined to play the PvP side of the game for so long, because on PvE it always feel like the Cat trying to get the Mouse, you use a CC, dance around with a few dodges and the combat is over. The only thing he can do is usually writen beneath the enemy name.

So what you guys think?

I think removing the CC limits for PvE while giving bosses more ways to deal with CC is a good idea.
Also there is a bunch of room for interesting design such as things like having bosses that are highly effected by their own attacks if reflected back onto them, bosses that react in interesting ways to some types of conditions (like a boss that starts attacking his own adds if you stack a bunch of confusion on it).

Right now my groups mostly brute force half of the fights just by stacking on to of me (Cleric’s gear healing Eng) and getting AoE healed out of most damage while we spread Boons and spam combo fields. A single reflection effect deals with most attacks so as long as we have a reflection/block order we hardly have to worry about anything.
I really want to see interesting fights that give you something more to do then just hammer on a long HP bar while kiting.

Many people loath the simple “enemy has gigantic HP pool”. It makes fights incredibly boring and easy. This game shouldn’t have bosses that you can alt-tab out of and browse on the internet while fighting.

“Hits like a truck”, while more entertaining than “gigantic HP pool”, is still lacking when compared to enemies with actually interesting mechanics, abilities and environments.

Unfortunately combat that is more difficult/interesting than simply bigger/smaller arbitrary numbers seems not to be that popular. Even during the betas enemies were more interesting to fight, especially skill challenges. During BWE1 skill challenges were generally at least a bit difficult (required skill, who would have thought that was required for a “skill” challenge), or even little champions/bosses (Flame Shaman from BWE1).

After the game released I remember seeing videos of people complaining about these nerfs to PvE, including a once difficult skill challenge that can now be completed by simply autoattacking for a few minutes, no evading the incoming damage required since the skill was completely taken out of that skill challenge. Another example being how the Flame Shaman is such a pushover nowadays… rather than having a big combat, where the people involved had to discuss the tactics on how to defend against and defeat this champion, it has turned into a simple “don’t get hit and you win in a few minutes” kind of fight that you can even do as a low level character.

I fear that too many people like boring combat, and that GW2 will prefer to gate content via gear, rather than skill when they do implement gated content. Before I got really into GW2 I remember hearing what I thought was a complete joke, that “MMO players hate fun”… but actually now I see that that joke does have some basis in reality.

I forgot to add in something that I think really matters. Examples of fights that I think are kitten near perfect:
Moss Man: Holy god is this guy great, running around all the time, disappears and shows up behind you with a one hit kill, adds that are not a big danger but get in the way, etc.

Legendary Archdiviner: Hammer is a interesting factor to the fight, he gets harder in stages based on his HP, his AoE fields keep you on the move but don’t make it so he can’t be hit in melee. Only thing I don’t like is that you can get your self out of the cage in place of having to have your team get you out.

Yeah, and while you guys talk about Bosses and it’s true, we can’t forget normal mobs!

This game is populated with enemies, it’s very combat driven. I would like to see different behaviour on that part. It’s always the same thing. CC, dodge and auto attack.

Why can’t the mobs Counter you, CC you for real, almost get you killed. You are right I miss the Beta, it was way harder and fun.

Another thing I forgot to bring it up was:
How come the enemies don’t make their own Combo Fields/Finishers? Why can’t they have their own way of thinking of defeating you. Right now even tho we have no holy trinity, it works like we had it. You just need to survive while being aggroed xD, untill it shifts away from you.

Wouldn’t it be great to see a Undead making a heal combo field with another Undead, making it harder? Whats up with that?

Joker.6158:

Why can’t the mobs Counter you, CC you for real, almost get you killed. You are right I miss the Beta, it was way harder and fun.

This happens… I have been chain CCed/pulled/knocked back more then I want to admit. Random trash mods in this game are harder then almost any other MMO I have played outside of FF11.

first off, 1 shot kills are no fun unless they happen rarely enough that you can charge up a dodge between them even without vigor.

Never mind that a lot of champs and higher pack normal attacks that force you to be on your move constantly unless your bunkered up with aegis on top.

As for mob CC, hello Orr. Didn’t see much of it outside of the odd bruiser types that ground slammed or centaurs that would run me over until i hit that place. Then i found myself pulled and launched all over the place. Especially annoying when the pull comes from behind because a mob respawned while i was trying to take down another that was barely outside of aggro range before (meaning i have found myself making no progress what so ever towards my destination).

The games problem seems to be that while it can put the fear of deity into a solo act, it becomes a pushover if you can stack some AOE heals or boon dispensers in a tight group.

Idk, it does happen. But that’s not my point.

My problems were much more “Im trying to get thru here and Ill just rush and out of the blue Im crippled, now I have to fight”
When what I mean is:
“Cool, the fight started Ill use my combo. kitten he CCd me, it’s fine. Ill go to the side and then, crap he combo’ed me.”

The difference is. One I’m only passing thru and Im CC’d, have to fight normally and it’s super easy. The second one, Im entering the fight where I’m not sure what’s going to happen. Easy example is in Orr, there is 1 Undead type that throws a weapon at you and pulls you to him, after that is (dodge away, cc, auto attack to death). It was so easy, and you can usually avoid his weapon pull the first time and go on.

My point is, There is CC (and somewhat counter, even tho counter is just a knockback that interrupted you lol, few weapons have a counter) that is made purely to keep you from moving and HITTING YOU LIKE A TRUCK so you die, because there isn’t another way for him to beat you kinda. And there is CC that prevent’s situations where you are in a disadvantage.

LordNat.4963:

Moss Man

The Moss Man really was an excellent boss. Everything about him, from his introduction to your party which adds an element of fear (Legendary enemy that pops in and out of an area where your party is split up), as well as when you find out that he is a boss ("ok now all we have to do is kill this push over of a tree boss… oh wait… what is this little shack… it can’t be the Moss Man’s shack can it?… uh oh), to his combat style which is much more interesting than a “tank and spank” or “kite and spank” style fight.

I had not considered the adds in that fight as being one of the good things about it, but now that you mention it they are really well done. They don’t steal the spotlight from the Moss Mann, it doesn’t result in the same old, same old strategy of “kill the adds first because they are annoying and the boss still has buckets of HP left”. They are there, they contribute slightly on the bosses side of the fight, gives you something else to pay attention to when the Moss Man vanishes. The adds also give you the opportunity to rally yourself if you go down, which is nice that the boss fight seems to take that important mechanic of the game into consideration.

Joker.6158:

Yeah, and while you guys talk about Bosses and it’s true, we can’t forget normal mobs!

That is very true. I would love the regular enemies in the world to be interesting as well. I don’t necessarily think that enemies using combo fields would be all that interesting, but them being able to counter you or have other little mechanics would be nice.

I also think that, although the fights should be strategically harder, enemies should have generally lower HP and/ or, maybe, better rewards.

For a simple reason: fighting challenging battles is fun, having every single enemy of the 1000th foes you’ll have to defeat taking too long to beat is not, unless there’s a proper reward. The alternative is really lower HP.

Let the battles be harder but faster, requiring higher skill but rewarding you with faster battles. This should make any fuure harder pve experience more fluid. And I doubt slightly faster battles = easier battles, unless th HP is so low that you can burst and kill every single time before even getting hit.

Surbrus.6942:

That is very true. I would love the regular enemies in the world to be interesting as well. I don’t necessarily think that enemies using combo fields would be all that interesting, but them being able to counter you or have other little mechanics would be nice.

Yes, the combo fields wouldn’t be much interested in a feature since we would probably not do much with it, or even know they are doing. But I meant more of a extra “synch” for the game. Cause overall all mobs are too easy, and the ones that are hard are just hard for 1hit stuff usually, where you just avoid dying untill his massive health is gone.

The game desperately needs a new “AI” use on the mobs.

DiogoSilva.7089:

I also think that, although the fights should be strategically harder, enemies should have generally lower HP and/ or, maybe, better rewards.

Yes of course, we all know the lenght of the fights are always off, because its all you do. Greater challenge, more rewards. Only big big fights need that kind of lengh but with some new mechanics to it.

DiogoSilva.7089:

I also think that, although the fights should be strategically harder, enemies should have generally lower HP and/ or, maybe, better rewards.

For a simple reason: fighting challenging battles is fun, having every single enemy of the 1000th foes you’ll have to defeat taking too long to beat is not, unless there’s a proper reward. The alternative is really lower HP.

Let the battles be harder but faster, requiring higher skill but rewarding you with faster battles. This should make any fuure harder pve experience more fluid. And I doubt slightly faster battles = easier battles, unless th HP is so low that you can burst and kill every single time before even getting hit.

This. Many times.

DiogoSilva.7089:

I also think that, although the fights should be strategically harder, enemies should have generally lower HP and/ or, maybe, better rewards.

For a simple reason: fighting challenging battles is fun, having every single enemy of the 1000th foes you’ll have to defeat taking too long to beat is not, unless there’s a proper reward. The alternative is really lower HP.

Let the battles be harder but faster, requiring higher skill but rewarding you with faster battles. This should make any fuure harder pve experience more fluid. And I doubt slightly faster battles = easier battles, unless th HP is so low that you can burst and kill every single time before even getting hit.

This was what it was like in BW1, less telegraph, more player QQ. Now people are complaining because of one rapid attack from the young karkas =/

You realistically have a limit to how hard the fights can be when 90% of playing well means dodging over and over. You need the mechanics of the fight to be simple if hitting V just a 1/2 second too late is going to pretty much kill you.

What I would have rather seen was combat being designed around the fact that you’re going to get hit, and giving you ways to mitigate that damage, through abilities… Like you would have your buffs and stuff, or instead you could have damage shields…

And then your main 5 combat abilities should play off each other. It should be a lot more complex than me pushing 5 so I charge, then hitting 2 if it’s off cooldown, otherwise, just let my autoattack go…

I think the combat system is great. Like the stacks of defiant for example. People need to be able to coordinate their ccs to actually interrupt a boss. Which makes perfect sense when you think about it.
I think a lot of the boss mechanics in dungeons and fractals are a lot of fun.
The thing that I think shows the most promise in terms of developing really interesting mechanics is environmental weapons, which they are only now really starting to explore the possibilities with some of the fractal mechanics.

Targetting sucks.

Aggro baffles me. I don’t understand how it works. I have read the wiki page but it clearly doesn’t explain it properly as I can be the one doing the least damage, being farther away than lots of teammates & pets and getting chased by something big and mean. As an ele, part of the game is keeping distance and keeping moving, but with no way to avoid also playing the tank, it’s just frustrating.

There are three fundamental ways to make combat “interesting”.

Either have the enemies do different and various things.

Or have the players do different and various things.

The combination of these would be the third.

Enemy combat has to be fairly predictable in order to allow the player to respond to those attacks. Such as a big hit having a glowing charge up indicating the players needs to run out. Or having combat swings from NPCs happening every 3-4 seconds (or what ever the time is).

NPCs also are managed so that special “kill” moves do not happen too frequently. We only have two dodges available and then a refresh time as the energy bar fills, so enemies can not spam big killer moves that need a lot of dodging (read, majority of enemy hits need to be within an acceptable range for players to stand there and take it…for the most part).

For the enemy side the things they can do to make combat more interesting would be to change the pattern of combat dodges up. Maybe some attacks require you to do a double roll while others require just a single roll. Or maybe put in an attack on a fight where you need a condition or boon from adds or enemies otherwise you will die.

The game needs to have punishment for wrong moves, but not so much that it doesn’t matter what you do, you will die anyway.

The other side of this is player interaction with the combat. Right now it is fairly static with a rotation of skills and the occasional combo field.

I think some interesting game play can be promoted by having various combat combos based on previous movement.

For example: Maybe if I roll forward and do an attack now I have a thrust move that has a push back.

Or if I roll to the sides I have a flanking attack that counts as hitting from the side/behind for a damage in bonus.

Rolling backwards could give a defensive bonus, halving the damage you take for the next couple of seconds.

How about more button type combos, such as if I do a leap attack and I hit a ground slam type attack I can combo them both into the target area at the same time.

By giving rolls more than defensive capability you have increased combat interaction and player decisions. Now I have to think about if I need to save the roll for defense or use it for offense.

By giving us more “real” combos with our abilities the players can do new and interesting things and apply skill. Like a fighting game allows players to combo and chain abilities into a smooth fighting style.

Well, even tho we probably see it differently there is without a doubt a “problem” with the way combat works in the game. The combat my itself it’s awesome, quick, pratical and fun, but what the community really needs it’s the challenge for that same combat.

Coming back about the Beta Events the difficulty was surely a bit better. What we need is a combat system that can match up with challenge. Right now the combat, as I said awesome, falls into a very mechanic rinse and repeat. You Auto attack, CC when near, dodge back.

We need something about the enemies! That makes the battle a little more epic. A better set of “fluent” skills for the enemies. A better feeling when running into a group of enemies, be it alone or in group, cause right now it feels like in a group of 4 enemies you are having 4 different single battles at the same time, there is no real combat feeling. Big CC because the only way difficulty is expressed here is Hitting VERY HARD, followed by focusing fire in a mob that has too much health. When they should have a twist against enemies, maybe they could dodge? Making CC unpredictable (as if the enemy avoided it) and focusing fire a more important tool. Maybe the ability to have skills that cancels CC, or even the ability to change behaviour while CCed.

The point is. Right now, PvE Wise, there isn’t much “Depth” to a game with ALOT of quick combat. Even tho the bosses can be reworked and insert more Ideas on it, the main thing for me is Combat since level 2 with regular mobs.

That lynx that has that stealth skill never did anything to you. It would just disappear and drop dead few seconds after. But give that lynx the ability to jump (dodge), stealth and apply a CC leap to stun you and then give a flurry of swipes in your face. Sounds so much better. If you don’t pay attention you might die, specially if there is more than one that was stalking and you didn’t see it.

There is so much depth into what this game could happen. Something that Gw1 had ALOT, enemies with synergistic -different- skills, sometimes even an elite that would just wipe you. I know its a different game, fast paced more reaction needed. But there is no reason why the PvE couldn’t behave more like PvP battles.

I will admit that I do not know how hard it would be to have this implemented.
But It would sure be needed for me to go back to PvE.

Keep sending your opinions. Would be awesome to have a Anet perspective on this.9

All I know is I finally got an 80 and started doing harder instances and boy do I not like them.

They’re not ‘harder’ in any way other than things are instantly lethal and ridiculously durable.

They’re just more annoying, and just cost money to complete, as people don’t think or talk or strategize, it’s just charge in then die-waypoint-fight-die-waypoint-fight-die-waypoint-fight-die-waypoint-fight-die, etc etc etc. until you’ve chipped down whatever you’re trying to kill.

Really disappointed.