Guild Wars 2

This was basically sparked by the fact that huge, epic events like Jormag require almost no strategy, technique or complex decisions from the combat and skills systems. In response to everyone whining about not being able to get their free rares from a brain-dead event because there are too many people in the skinner box:

People are so worried about rewards and being stuck in a skinner box that they forget…this game’s combat isn’t even engaging or deep. Sure, you can dodge and jump, but every skill is far from useful independently. The combo system is a joke. Skills like frost aura, flame aura…they have little to no purpose outside of PvP and even then, they’re lessened because they take up a slot and offer very little without a class to consistently mitigate and heal damage. What effect has taking out healers truly had on the skill design and depth of the gameplay, which is the combat system? It’s all just homogenized when bosses have arbitrary difficulty in health and OHKO mechanics. What happened to monster design in GW1 where you actually had to build around what player-available skills mobs in the area had? The buff / debuff system is homogenized and bland, little to no complex decision making, little build variety, and absolutely nothing content-wise that tests any specific build or team composition.

Sure, it’s casual-friendly because it doesn’t force people into roles to do content, but people like to feel needed and specialize into roles. I certainly shouldn’t feel like im gimping my team by running a 100% support/ healing oriented build, yet in this game, i do. Why? Because encounters and the combat system are designed like a zerg-DPS race. Builds other than those centered around this seem to feel intangibly effective or almost no point of differentiation. In GW1, i always knew, as a monk, exactly what caused me to not have the energy to heal someone from death. In this game, there’s basically nothing that deeply tangible about the extent of individual effectiveness.

I know at this point it’d be stupid to ask for a healer class or for roles to be a bit more defined or even a rework of the attribute and buff system to aid clarity, but that’s not the purpose of this topic. I post about this a lot because i feel like it is central to the issues GW2 has with engaging existing players and gathering new ones. Despite this, i expect to be flamed heavily by fanboys if this topic becomes even remotely popular.

In response to the whining about guesting, i ask, why do we stop here and settle for this brain-dead content?

What can ArenaNet do to add more reason to care about the gameplay, not just grinding away for rewards?

Are people so blinded by rewards that they forget what fun is?

Do people find zerging and DPS race with no tangible, individual effectiveness fun in MMO gaming?

The biggest problem I have right now with GW2, and I love the game BTW, is the depth of the combat. I can look past the holdover mechanic of 5 skills for a weapon set from GW1 (where it made sense in a game mechanic way) but it’s the loss of the Holy Trinity that’s really beginning to bug me.
I can understand ANet’s philosophy behind “removing” the Holy Trinity system, so that groups are supposedly easier to form and no one is stuck doing one job in a group. The problem and result of this is that the combat is stale. They cannot build a mass encounter or evekittenman encounter that is more than one of two things: either a range enemy or a melee enemy. With a lack of role in the group it’s either a zerg fest or a kite fest.
Compare this to WoW, which I am doing because it’s the big bad and the one game that GW2 is not trying to be thus resulting in this thread, where combat with a mob or a boss can evolve during the fight. There can be times of dps or mass healing or where the tanks blow cooldowns. With what we have in GW2 no one has a purpose, there’s nothing to benchmark against except you ran through your rotation and participated.
This combat reminds me of the line from The Incredibles, “When everyone is special, no one will be.”

It’s hidden behind all the broken skills that bring most classes down to one or two (boring and overly defensive) builds. That’s really the only problem I see, hope ANet gets cracking on this soon.

Seriously, why do people keep saying that everyone does the same thing because everybody has to DPS and take care of their own healing? That is completely illogical, it’s like saying that a bomb shelter is the same as a beverly hills mansion because both have roofs and floors. Having certain things in common does not inherently mean having the same purpose, equal capability, or the same defining traits.

All the character classes are combatants under the same system, of course they have things in common, they still have far more things apart from each other, more than enough to make each a unique play-experience unique.

While I agree to most of what is posted here, my opinion differs in that I don’t think it’s the individual profession skills and what-not that’s the problem.

I find it really amazing that Anet was able to pull this off in the first place and I for one am glad they removed the Holy Trinity. It’s a MAJOR step forward for me in the MMO genre.

Given that the professions in this game still needs to be balanced out, I think that the major flaw in the combat design are the encounters themselves. In World of Warcraft, you feel that you really have a role because the encounters are BUILT around those roles, so you are actually forced to do them.

What Anet should probably do is to make an encounter that makes use of the type of combat they put in place in the game. And I am not referring to the zerg-fest, kite-fest or brain-dead fest type of encounters that can be found in-game.

Right now, the dungeon encounters and the world boss encounters are really not that well thought out in my opinion. They just went with the easiest type of game mechanic they can think of with the current profession gameplay and applied it to the entire game.

I am really looking forward to that time when Anet will make full use of their time ad talents to provide us with entertaining and engaging dungeon and world boss encounters based on the current profession skill system in place.

Edit: I would like to add that what they did in AC is a step forward in the right direction. Not only does it require you to have teamwork but it also requires you use your brain during the run.

On a side note: monsters who can disable you then one shot you are NOT fun. The downed state mechanic in game should NOT play a major role in encounter mechanics specially inside dungeons.

GW2 has a lot of depth in Combat.
Check out this Video on how in depth the combat really is:

You also want to check this Next video to see all 8 Professions Full Potential:

I hope this helps you out! Good Luck! =)

lothefallen.7081:

Skills like frost aura, flame aura…they have little to no purpose outside of PvP and even then, they’re lessened because they take up a slot and offer very little without a class to consistently mitigate and heal damage.

There is your basic problem. Tho i would say what is needed is not a specific profession that can do healing, but meaningful healing skills and traits.

Dodge seems to be what is supposed to supplant healing as a active defensive measure. But because it doubles up as both a invulnerability period and a movement animation, you often can’t dodge because it will send you flying off some cliff edge.

What i have proposed for months are the option for shield carrying characters to be able to raise their shield in a sustained fashion, spending endurance for the duration. It would not allow you to do damage, but it would produce a breather while skills are recharging and also allow you to “tank” a larger mob until someone else do something to take its attention away from you.

This because i find the current shield blocks a mess. They have 2-3 second windows where they are effective, and 10x-20x that in recharge no matter if you manage to block a attack or not. end result are that experimenting with blocking is defensively expensive.

The main thing that makes it hard I think, is that anything has to be able to do anything.

For example, a glass cannon has to be able to survive a dungeon. But if they can survive a dungeon, why would anyone take anything with more defense than a glass cannon?

However, if only tanks can survive dungeons, why would anyone pick a glass cannon build ever again?

Also, if everyone’s healing should be self-sufficient, what good is party support?

Those are the main issues I think.

Watch my videos and there wont be any more of these soo called “issues”.
lol Gosh I swear… You people all just complain than learn on forums sometimes.

Ah yes, the ever helpful “l2p”. Except you advice include running around as “control”.

Take your condescending attitude and shove it!

Well coming from a Gw1 player I miss the skill combinations. I find it a joke we are stuck with the same skills forever and ever and always.

Gw1 had combat deaph some would say more so then this but what would happen if you simply added the dodge and jump mechanics? This game would look silly in comparrison.

You either “l2P” or “B&C”
=) I just happen to be helpful. Too bad some people don’t see it that way.

I think Anet should find other ways to make the game deeper. I think if conds/boons/combos transcended your character’s emphasis, whether it be damage/healing/survival, then it’d make the game deeper without really giving up its original vision. Yeah, you’d be doing the same things, but it would indeed require more thought and cohesion, and you’d benefit greatly from coordinating and considering what each of you bring to the table.

For example, instead of bosses all having raw health you can brute force down just by surviving and dealing damage, you could have bosses resistant to damage that take massive damage when a blast combo is performed on top of them. Another example could be a boss that takes astronomical damage from retaliation, forcing the group to take hits intelligently instead of just avoiding them (there could be an object in the room that when held can provide ret, just in case a group doesn’t have a source). Another example could be one where if you’re emphasis is direct damage then you’re job is to destroy certain objects instead of just whack the boss.

Not trying to flame, but I don’t think trinity play actually makes something deep. WoW & friends feel very shallow to me. As say, a healer, I feel like it couldn’t be any less-deep. The only times I felt like it was deep was when I had to, for an infinitesimal moment, NOT heal and do something pivotal, such as stun/interrupt something or click a cube on magtheridon when the person scheduled to be there is feared too far away or such. I’m not saying GW2 is “amg perfection incarnate” or anything, but if I wanted to be confined to that system, I wouldn’t be here :-|.

Where is the combat depth? In Arah, where bosses require (or at least some) skill, and trash mobs actually require utility to fight. Any time there’s some fight that requires more than just mindless DPS like CoF P1 people complain because it’s too hard. I don’t think we’ll see too much more of it.

I think the single most irritating thing about this game is the way conditions and control effects are implemented. Your control effects last what, 4 seconds? Condition damage is terrible, so you are left doing what you are doing in your video, which is effectively running around an awful lot, snapping a control on, applying a boon or a condition, then going for a hit, then running around some more after your 3 or 4 second stun wears off. There is no meaningful CC available, meaning you can’t take a mob (even one) out of a fight, which is why, in my opinion, all fights in dungeons against trash end up being somewhat of a zerg. Theres just no strategy as every fight is the same.

Now in your example, fighting only one mob, the system (kind of) works. But in dungeons or when you have 5 risen or 5 dredge on your back, you basically have to rely on a combination of aoe attacks, healing yourself, dodging, cleansing and to a degree some luck.

Also irritating is the fact that you can only dodge a couple of times before your endurance runs out, then you are kiting by running around (as in your video). I mean, you can charge around swinging an impossibly oversized greatsword around indefinitely but 2 rolls and you need some time to recover? Also, to be effective and take little damage you HAVE to switch between melee and ranged, which is fine if thats how you WANT to play, but what if you want to be purely melee? Fine on a couple of regular mobs maybe, but try it on your own on a Champion or a couple of veterans (at your own level).

I personally like a lot of the combat system, but there are definitely elements that need some serious thought.

DreamyAbaddon.3265:

GW2 has a lot of depth in Combat.
Check out this Video on how in depth the combat really is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLNgkZDHOIs

You also want to check this Next video to see all 8 Professions Full Potential:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0b1D7-2Gypg

I hope this helps you out! Good Luck! =)

All your videos do is highlight how shallow and one dimensional the combat is.

To everyone else…..chill and just take it as it comes, play and dont expect anything from Gw2, play for fun and just wait for the next “big game” to come out…shouldnt be to far away.

lothefallen.7081:

This was basically sparked by the fact that huge, epic events like Jormag require almost no strategy, technique or complex decisions from the combat and skills systems. In response to everyone whining about not being able to get their free rares from a brain-dead event because there are too many people in the skinner box:

The big open world events are a real joke, but that’s what you get from open world encounters, you can’t have properly balanced world encounters when the amount of participants is unknown, that’s a simple fact. Only in an instance truly challenging content can be created, where actual teamwork can be used to overcome difficult challenges, something impossible in the open world.

lothefallen.7081:

What happened to monster design in GW1 where you actually had to build around what player-available skills mobs in the area had? The buff / debuff system is homogenized and bland, little to no complex decision making, little build variety, and absolutely nothing content-wise that tests any specific build or team composition.

I don’t know about you, but I was using the exact same hero-way build and afk everything in GW1 even in Hard Mode. I wouldn’t call that either complex decision making or superb build variety.

I can’t exactly say what it is but I basically agree. The combat system seems fun at first but after awhile I find it rather bland. There is some depth but maybe it just isn’t really needed? I don’t find I need to time stuff or think too much in PvE or PvP on any of the 3 classes I have tried. Maneuvering is about it with some stuff that needs timing (dodging, some abilities). But in big fights its spam high dps stuff.

I enjoyed Rifts system (especially roles) and WAR’s more than GW2s. Though GW2 wins out because it has a PvP meta-game that works. (well, basically works, hopefully they fix culling like they promise).

Depth is often the mileage the game gets out of one mechanic, or in other words the variety of gameplay or situations the game allows per game mechanic. By mechanic I mean things like dodging, movement, hitbox, conditions, etc.

GW2 goes for variety of mechanics rather than depth. It can be fun and there can very well be variety, but each individual action is less meaningful than it could be.

I swing my sword. I swing it again…

I think that part of this is because some mechanics cancel out the possibilities of others. For instance Tab targeting and auto aim makes movement against ranged less meaningful unless the player is running out of range or is already out of range. And then you have other mechanics like AoE that often subvert positioning because they can be cast anywhere within range. Not to mention they’re almost always variations on a circle. There’s are very few that are directional, and even then those aren’t really AoEs.

GW2 combat has depth, you just don’t find it in braindead easy events, but in PvP and, to a lesser extent, challenging PvE ecounters (some dungeons).

Also we might have different definitions of depth, as I believe complex =/= deep. Chess is a prime example of a game that’s relatively simple but really deep.

I think this game could use a tutorial where you actually get taught how to do combos and the various fight mechanics. Right now it feels like too many people don’t have a grasp of how to take advantage of other profession’s skills or how to put skills down for others to use. When people don’t know this then every fight becomes a straight out dps fight with no interactions.

While I do agree that combat can be a little lack luster at times, I still love the fact that there’s no holy trinity. Since it makes me actually want to play every class. With most mmos, I often feel limited.

I don’t like heal spamming or being expected to always want to party, so healer/support classes are out. Almost the same with tanks, only add to that how I don’t like bulky armor and slow movement for non-mage classes. So this leaves me with DPS. I don’t like playing warrior classes. They just somehow feel less…smooth than others. So my only choices are the squishy classes, and on top of that, they have to be able to solo content while still being wanted in a party. I’m mostly a solo gamer, but parties are needed a lot for end-game content. Too bad ‘solo’ classes are often unwanted.

So, personally, I really like not having a holy trinity. I actually want to play EVERY class, they all look fun, and I’m not held down by roles that I don’t like to play.

At the same time, though, I agree that Anet needs to do something to make combat a little more… interactive? Dungeons and PVP do have that challenge, but most of the main-game content is pretty straight forward. Especially if you’re in a party.

Maybe if they added skills that are more role based, like more team healing/support skills on a guardian, it would help? There’s basically nothing they can do with world bosses, because no matter what a big handful of players are going to show up and the shear number of them will make it difficult to have a challenging boss.

I really don’t want them to change to system so much that I have to be forced into a role, but I want them to have content and skills available for those that do. Actually, being a tank or dps is pretty easy in this game. There’s just no full-time support/healing option.

I agree with you OP, more than you could ever know. It’s the biggest problem I have with the game, they took the role out of Rpg and just made everyone DPS. Combat is extreeeeemely repetitive, no variance to any degree unless you count gimping yourself (and your party) with a condition/support/tanky build. What I wouldn’t do to have my WoH monk in this game to actually add some fun engagement to combat.

Combo system is indeed a joke, the only decent finisher is splash heal and even that still heals for a tiny amount. With all the lazy instant kills and 2/3 health pool hits mobs do in this game I find it truly an insult that there are no healers. Sure you can simply dodge, but where’s the fun in that? This game revolves around you trying not to take damage, it’s simply less engaging. Removing healers dumbed down combat to a massive degree.

Not to mention we have access to what seems like 3 skills at any given time that are remotely useful, spamming the same 1 or 2 buttons 24/7. There is no forethought required when entering a zone or dungeon. Enter, zerg, win. I don’t even feel like I’m in a party, ever. Isn’t much team play until you need revived.

while i agree that zergs are this game combat weaknesses.
they are mostly found at high populated events and world bosses now.
or should i say; they are mostly found where the most boring players, farmers, are.

its sad for the regular people that sometimes they have to go thru such pathetic gameplay moment but 95% of the time you can avoid such by simply not hanging out with farmers.

as for dungeons, they are not zergs.
a zerg will often get you killed
a good team should basically be able to faceroll the dungeon solely because they have skills/dont male mistake.

but spamming auto attack and lagging isnt the technique here.

the other place youll find zerg is wvw, but that isnt so bad because its the nature of big scale combat.
this isnt a “strategy” game (combat wise, because wvw can be very strategic
from a commander’s point of view), its a action game.

If it is a action game is has a very awkward interface.

action game with cooldowns.
like diablo, basically.

but more deep.

the interface isnt awkward at all.

OP does not speak for me.

Seeing that all responses contrary to the OP are met with hostility, I’ll leave it at that.

OP: Isn’t this, like, your sixth thread on this topic?

That being said, I’d argue that it’s the other way around in terms of independant usefulness of skills; GW2 has more skills that are useful independantly than GW (since GW had a tonne of skills that required other things to get the maximum effectiveness out of them i.e. You wouldn’t use Glowing Ice if you hadn’t set up a Water Hex first, and you wouldn’t use Teinai’s Prison without Cracked Armour).

@Rukia

I don’t personally see how making sure you avoid and mitigate damage is less engaging than repairing the damage after it has been done.

(I’ll expand on this post when I get home).

And here, folks, is where I’d like to note the difference between someone like myself and someone like the OP.

When I create threads or post in them, it’s to complain about a topic that I think is going to be to the game’s detriment, but I’m not actively trying to throw the entire game’s design structure out. I’m trying to bring attention to what I feel is a genuine issue. I enjoy most of the game but want to see some adjustments made to particular aspects so that players can spend more time enjoying the game and less time grinding for a chance to enjoy the game.

The OP, on the other hand, is the sort of person who just refuses to enjoy the game in any conceivable fashion. Which is why this is perhaps the sixth or seventh time I’ve seen him post this exact same topic. He doesn’t want to play GW2, he wants to play WoW, because he’s so engrained in the trinity mindset that he can’t enjoy hack-and-slash / action-adventure oriented combat. And it is my sincere hope that he has fun playing WoW. But GW2 isn’t WoW, and it doesn’t need to be. The fact that TESO is actively seeking to copy many of its combat aspects from GW2 (especially its PvP system which is a carbon copy of WvW) is, to me, proof positive that GW2 did something right in that regard.

critickitten.1498:

The fact that TESO is actively seeking to copy many of its combat aspects from GW2 (especially its PvP system which is a carbon copy of WvW) is, to me, proof positive that GW2 did something right in that regard.

Erm, eh? Having watched the latest developer announcement video for TESO not half an hour an ago, what parts of the combat system do you think are like GW2? They are like previous ES games in the sense that you attack with your left mouse key and block with your right, depending on what you have equipped. Not once in any of the video footage did I see anyone running around, rolling about or attempting to cast spells over their shoulder whilst running away.

And as for pvp being a carbon copy…there aren’t even going to be any battlegrounds. Rather a whole area of the map is permanently given over to PvP.

Not sure where you’re getting your info. Still if in six months time I find myself in a massive zerg trying to break down a gate for ten minutes I will acknowledge you were right.

Most of the criticism of TESO atm on the net is directed at the fact that people think its a WoW clone in ES clothing….

teso will probably be allright.
its a big budget and they hopefully learned from swtor mistakes and gw2 success (and mistake).
at first the combat was more “wow-like” but since a bit before christmas they reworked it to be more “actiony” a la skyrim, because, mostly of players complaint and the success of gw2.

the next big “tactical” mmo (in a wow sense) will be final fantasy.
imo both styles are good.
i like a more aarpg combat style (gw2) and a more strategy/tactical combat type a la wow too.
(but imo the strategy type need a solid overhaul like gw2 overhauled the action style).

it comes down to your preference.

pricer.5091:

Erm, eh? Having watched the latest developer announcement video for TESO not half an hour an ago, what parts of the combat system do you think are like GW2? They are like previous ES games in the sense that you attack with your left mouse key and block with your right, depending on what you have equipped. Not once in any of the video footage did I see anyone running around, rolling about or attempting to cast spells over their shoulder whilst running away.

According to the devs, their combat relies on blocking and movement in the style of action adventure games. No, they don’t have dodges, and yes, they can block more on command (which I’m betting will become a huge balance issue), but they’re doing the “movement combat” thing in the style of GW2. Players will be expected to avoid AoE drops, they will be using and get hit by knockbacks and knockdowns, and they have to aim their blocking strategically to avoid damage.

Their combat is different only in the sense that it’s not a perfect clone of any game, but rather a hybrid of three: ES single player (blocking on command), GW2 (movement and strategic blocking), and WoW (stylistically speaking).

And as for pvp being a carbon copy…there aren’t even going to be any battlegrounds. Rather a whole area of the map is permanently given over to PvP.

Not sure where you’re getting your info. Still if in six months time I find myself in a massive zerg trying to break down a gate for ten minutes I will acknowledge you were right.

Their PvP system is a three-faction map in which you battle over keeps and camps, using a variety of siege weaponry and large swarms of players to take and hold various strategic locations.

Sound familiar? Maybe because it’s exactly the same as WvW.

There’s no question who they got the idea from (and, indeed, where they got a LOT of their ideas from), when you hear the devs explain it for themselves.

Most of the criticism of TESO atm on the net is directed at the fact that people think its a WoW clone in ES clothing….

People think everything is a WoW clone, though. GW2 was facing that same criticism (and still does) despite how it clearly isn’t.

I really enjoy the depth of the combat with some classes, but some are pretty mindless (like the thief). My first character was a thief, and if I hadnt played others I might not still be playing. Recently deleted the thief, btw! Level 80 and full exos. Fun part was, when I bought the gear, it was pretty cheap and even in salvaging, made almost double my money!

The current combat system I am learning is with ranger sword. Pretty tricky system to learn (at least to me), but has an enormous amount of possibilities. Along with the GS, I dont target anyone at all and just use the combat animations themselves. I have found it to be just as engaging as one of my favorite games of all time, Soul Calibur 2. Loving it!

critickitten.1498:

Their PvP system is a three-faction map in which you battle over keeps and camps, using a variety of siege weaponry and large swarms of players to take and hold various strategic locations.

Sound familiar? Maybe because it’s exactly the same as WvW.

There’s no question who they got the idea from (and, indeed, where they got a LOT of their ideas from), when you hear the devs explain it for themselves.

That would be, “Dark Age of Camelot”.

What would make GW2 classes much more enjoyable (for myself at least) is if we could setup weapon <=> builds and swap weapons (and thus builds) on the fly (a short timer between swaps). That would be awesome. I mainly PvP, would so enjoy this. I want more options when I fight. As it is, I can tell who will win 90% of the time after a few blows/skills get used and either press the attack or run away. And you want different stuff for keep defense versus open field, etc. Would just be much more tactically engaging.

lothefallen.7081:

Do people find zerging and DPS race with no tangible, individual effectiveness fun in MMO gaming?

This is all that I read, TL:DR should be mandatory for long posts.

To answer, yes they do.

There’s a lot of combat depth, but you have to know where to look for it.

It’s not easy to find it in Zerging or DPS races or fighting random mobs in world that have an ability or two. If you do 1v1 fights in WvW, you’re likely to meet some very challenging people. There’s also a lot of combat depth in rated SPvP too.

Point is that it’s there, but you have to look for it. (And don’t get me into talking about how GW2’s builds are simplified vs GW1… There’s a whole other level of depth that comes from simplified builds that complex build systems cover and hide).

The Magic Wombat.5170:

critickitten.1498:

Their PvP system is a three-faction map in which you battle over keeps and camps, using a variety of siege weaponry and large swarms of players to take and hold various strategic locations.

Sound familiar? Maybe because it’s exactly the same as WvW.

There’s no question who they got the idea from (and, indeed, where they got a LOT of their ideas from), when you hear the devs explain it for themselves.

That would be, “Dark Age of Camelot”.

Yes, because the designer responsible is the same guy who was responsible for PvP in DaoC. The combat system is fundamentally different to GW2 from what I can gather and therefore it stands to reason that PvP will be too. There are not three factions at war here in GW2, there are three servers at war, not the same thing at all.

DreamyAbaddon.3265:

Watch my videos and there wont be any more of these soo called “issues”.
lol Gosh I swear… You people all just complain than learn on forums sometimes.

You explain even the most basic skills in this video like it was some great secret, while completely failing to actually display any depth at all. I mean you kited an npc for about a minute while repeatedly applying cripple, wow, that’s grand. Oh the depth of it…

Seriously, that’s not what depth is. An evolving, reactive meta game could be considered depth, build diversity could be considered depth, truely customizable skill bars, the secondary profession system or something like the strategic impact of hexes, counter hexes and various interactions of skills that gw1 had certainly where depth; but what you show here is only amateurish beating (fast cast ground targetting off for gs/rifle?) on an almost unreactive ai.

Usual thread where OP mistakes easy content for lack of combat depth.
Here we go…
1) “The game has no roles” is totally wrong. It’s the opposite, we play all roles at the same time: we tank, we heal, we DPS.
2) Try frac50 then come back telling me how terribly your full glass DPS team has failed.
Full DPS teams work only in easymode content.
3) Combos might not be as good as they should but definitely a big buff in endgame.
Water blasts, blindness finishers and lifesteal make hard content much easier.

Combat has a lot more depth than any MMO out there, it’s just that most content of GW2 is not challenging and thus makes it seem there is some flaw but it’s really simply lack of challenging content outside highfrac.

The core issue is that this community is terribly afraid of difficulty.
Every time Anet makes difficult content they cry until it’s toned down to a DPS zergfest.
Anet needs to make hardmodes and give both the EZ community and us content for our required difficulty.

wintermute.4096:

DreamyAbaddon.3265:

Watch my videos and there wont be any more of these soo called “issues”.
lol Gosh I swear… You people all just complain than learn on forums sometimes.

You explain even the most basic skills in this video like it was some great secret, while completely failing to actually display any depth at all. I mean you kited an npc for about a minute while repeatedly applying cripple, wow, that’s grand. Oh the depth of it…

Seriously, that’s not what depth is. An evolving, reactive meta game could be considered depth, build diversity could be considered depth, truely customizable skill bars, the secondary profession system or something like the strategic impact of hexes, counter hexes and various interactions of skills that gw1 had certainly where depth; but what you show here is only amateurish beating (fast cast ground targetting off for gs/rifle?) on an almost unreactive ai.

Not being the best orator I’ve learned how to find good examples of things and then point to them, it also saves me the hassle of having to explain things myself.
Anyway on the topic of depth, this: http://extra-credits.net/episodes/depth-vs-complexity/

CureForLiving.5360:

Not being the best orator I’ve learned how to find good examples of things and then point to them, it also saves me the hassle of having to explain things myself.
Anyway on the topic of depth, this: http://extra-credits.net/episodes/depth-vs-complexity/

I was going to make a quick reply that basically said you are talking about a concept which most people will simply not be able to understand or comprehend.

I decided to watch the video first, and I think it actually explains it in a way that most can understand!

Now, just like video states, whether one chooses to find that depth is always, always up in the air. I would even go so far as to say that most prefer the appearance of depth through convoluted complexity, rather than put any effort in themselves. And in that, GW2 is a bit lacking. Personally, I much prefer it this way, so I play this game. If I didnt, I would play another game that throws a bunch of stuff at me to make it appear to have substantial depth. There are plenty!

CureForLiving.5360:

wintermute.4096:

DreamyAbaddon.3265:

Watch my videos and there wont be any more of these soo called “issues”.
lol Gosh I swear… You people all just complain than learn on forums sometimes.

You explain even the most basic skills in this video like it was some great secret, while completely failing to actually display any depth at all. I mean you kited an npc for about a minute while repeatedly applying cripple, wow, that’s grand. Oh the depth of it…

Seriously, that’s not what depth is. An evolving, reactive meta game could be considered depth, build diversity could be considered depth, truely customizable skill bars, the secondary profession system or something like the strategic impact of hexes, counter hexes and various interactions of skills that gw1 had certainly where depth; but what you show here is only amateurish beating (fast cast ground targetting off for gs/rifle?) on an almost unreactive ai.

Not being the best orator I’ve learned how to find good examples of things and then point to them, it also saves me the hassle of having to explain things myself.
Anyway on the topic of depth, this: http://extra-credits.net/episodes/depth-vs-complexity/

Yea, I’ve seen that video around before, and the distinction they make between complexity and depth seems sound to me. Sadly though, gw2 lacks both.
They seemingly fear complexity so dreadfully, that they sacrificed way too much depth, a very common problem in today’s AAA games though.

CureForLiving.5360:

wintermute.4096:

DreamyAbaddon.3265:

Watch my videos and there wont be any more of these soo called “issues”.
lol Gosh I swear… You people all just complain than learn on forums sometimes.

You explain even the most basic skills in this video like it was some great secret, while completely failing to actually display any depth at all. I mean you kited an npc for about a minute while repeatedly applying cripple, wow, that’s grand. Oh the depth of it…

Seriously, that’s not what depth is. An evolving, reactive meta game could be considered depth, build diversity could be considered depth, truely customizable skill bars, the secondary profession system or something like the strategic impact of hexes, counter hexes and various interactions of skills that gw1 had certainly where depth; but what you show here is only amateurish beating (fast cast ground targetting off for gs/rifle?) on an almost unreactive ai.

Not being the best orator I’ve learned how to find good examples of things and then point to them, it also saves me the hassle of having to explain things myself.
Anyway on the topic of depth, this: http://extra-credits.net/episodes/depth-vs-complexity/

Good video and rule of thumb, but it’s still too simple and inadequate an explanation, IMO.

I GW2 goes wrong when it focuses so much on convenience and fluidity. Tab targeting and all it woes were implemented for the sake of familiarty and ease, and you can’t even turn the blasted feature off. Then there’s the ability to move and cast. I’m probably going to attract the ire of many by saying this, but move casting is one of the elements that truly dumbs down combat. It makes positioning and timing less important and encourages the a very spammy type of gameplay. But since the game is built around this feature it’s not likely to go away.

I find plenty of depth in weapon sets like the ranger one handed sword. My only issue with it is that using other skills resets the main attack chain. If that were to change, I would be hard pressed to find a single game (mmo-style) that offers so much depth with so little complexity. It puts the success and creativity solely in the hands of the player. I admit that most people would rather have the complex appearance rather than actual depth, since that allows the individual to put in far less effort and have the game handle the “depth” for them. I dont feel there is anything wrong with it, I am just happy to see a game finally working towards a relatively simple system that has a depth that is determined by the creativity of the player.

That said, I have found the ranger one handed sword to be the best example of such a thing, and many (if not most) of the weapon sets of classes do not come close. However, that is because most people do not want to have to put in a lot of effort actively, but would rather do it passively. So, marketing-wise, its good to appeal to as many as possible. I much prefer to have both, through traits/gear/build that is put into fluid action in combat. I kind of get the feeling that the depth of the ranger one handed sword might have been unintentional.

Different strokes for different folks, but I much prefer to handle the creativity, depth, and gameplay flow rather than have the game do it passively. While GW2 isnt perfect in this regard, I hope to see more weapon sets like the ranger sword. At the same time though, doing that would isolate a large portion of the population who would rather just have the appearance of depth rather than create it themselves actively and constantly. I am not sure what would be the healthiest for the game overall.

The combat in GW2 is stale because it isn’t needed as anything more. It is because the event coding is poor.

For instance, we can have all sorts of unique synergy with those around us (Dungeons and events where only small amounts of players show up highlight this), showing off some amazing combat fun. Doing a champion meta event with only 2-4 players is a lot more fun (depending on the meta, since most still suck from being too simple).

But the game doesn’t require us to do that. The game requires us to auto-attack number 1 while standing around, and if we fall, just get a revive from a neighbor. Almost all the combat events in the game are boring (like Temple of Melandru, any Dragon Event, Shadow Behemoth, etc) because they don’t require us to pay attention to anything. We just need to burst damage something or some group.

We don’t need to set up our skills, wait for opportune times, pay attention to our neighbors.

In fights heavy with conditions, I keep my Elixir Gun out and keep a light field down 100% of the time. Super Elixir and Fumigate. But do people bother to use it? No… cause there is no need. The few fights where there is need, people don’t bother since they never learned. They instead go down like bricks and just rely on being rezzed over and over.

The holy trinity was great at forcing Developers to engage players with each other and the combat. Removing it is neither good nor bad. It simply causes Developers to become lazy. The no longer need to think about player-player interactions.

With beta and 7 months of release, it is clear that content is not balanced well. I love the game, but I’m honest. The balance between event to event is just bad. Way too easy “get hit by everything and live” events, or Champion Sharks that 1 hit everyone to death. This is plainly bad design. We the players can’t do anything on our end.

But pointing out how boring it is, and how changes are needed seems to get deleted from the forums as “not helping”.

The game will be what it is, as long as Anet doesn’t want to hear criticism.

Hsinimod is mostly right. When you reach a point during an event that is the critical zerg point, the amount of players attacking removes the need to strategize and play smart. You can just overcome the obstacle with brute force. The Shatterer with just 8-10 people is actually a bit challenging. With 30-40 people, everyone just sits int he same spot spamming attacks and letting the AOE cap protect them.

Fighting a Champion with two or three players actually involves all the elements of combat and depth the game has. Certain dungeon encounters show ways to play cooperatively and with smarts. The small scale sPVP shows these elements.

However, if all you do is spam 1 ikittenerg, the reason you aren’t finding any combat depth is because you are in the worst situation to be in if you’re looking for depth. Though, even then, I had learned and discovered the tricks and nuances of combat in the game leveling up my first character. If you’re still clueless at this point then there certainly is a player-error issue going on.

ANet does need to find a way to make fights interesting and challenging once the amount of players becomes a brute force zerg. Grenth’s temple and the AC redesign shows some of their early work on improving this.

etiolate.9185:

Hsinimod is mostly right. When you reach a point during an event that is the critical zerg point, the amount of players attacking removes the need to strategize and play smart. You can just overcome the obstacle with brute force. The Shatterer with just 8-10 people is actually a bit challenging. With 30-40 people, everyone just sits int he same spot spamming attacks and letting the AOE cap protect them.

Fighting a Champion with two or three players actually involves all the elements of combat and depth the game has. Certain dungeon encounters show ways to play cooperatively and with smarts. The small scale sPVP shows these elements.

However, if all you do is spam 1 ikittenerg, the reason you aren’t finding any combat depth is because you are in the worst situation to be in if you’re looking for depth. Though, even then, I had learned and discovered the tricks and nuances of combat in the game leveling up my first character. If you’re still clueless at this point then there certainly is a player-error issue going on.

ANet does need to find a way to make fights interesting and challenging once the amount of players becomes a brute force zerg. Grenth’s temple and the AC redesign shows some of their early work on improving this.

You know, while I play a little PvE (ok, even saying that is a bit generous), I mostly do WvW. Obviously, such issues play out much differently there, so I think its good to get some insight from other perspectives. Thanks!

Honestly, I think the biggest improvement in PvE content in any game will come with advancing AI. Programmers have yet to come even close to the unpredictability and “fight” of a person controlling what happens. Might even be interesting to implement a system where in the large event DEs a programmer, or predesignated player, takes control of the NPC. It could serve as a good placeholder until AI gets to a more capable level. edit: You might even be able to make it a part of the group/party mechanic where predesignated players of the group would take on the roles of the different “big baddies” in the main boss fights of dungeons, fractals, etc. Though, it would be extremely open to exploitation obviously.

The game has a pretty good combat system (particularly with comboing) but the big issue is no one is forced to utilize the system to it’s full potential.

Red Falcon.8257:

Usual thread where OP mistakes easy content for lack of combat depth.

No, I don’t think there was a mistake.

Here we go…
1) “The game has no roles” is totally wrong. It’s the opposite, we play all roles at the same time: we tank, we heal, we DPS.

Really? Care to explain to me how my Thief is tanking or healing? I can heal myself a little bit, which is akin to drinking a potion in a game like WoW. Healing yourself once every so often does not a healer make. And I am certainly not tanking anything as I’ll get 1-2 hit by most things despite not being Berserker spec or geared.

But I’ve LOVE to hear how I play all roles as anything other than a Guardian. Please inform me.

2) Try frac50 then come back telling me how terribly your full glass DPS team has failed.
Full DPS teams work only in easymode content.

Your shining example is frac 50? A level of fractals that are meant to be literally impossible to complete due to not having enough Agony Resist? The ones that you would have to massively exploit just to do? You are not making an even remotely good argument.

3) Combos might not be as good as they should but definitely a big buff in endgame.
Water blasts, blindness finishers and lifesteal make hard content much easier.

The only combo field worth bothering with at the moment is Area Might. Nothing else actually matters outside of simply spamming finishers and hoping you do something with them.

Combat has a lot more depth than any MMO out there, it’s just that most content of GW2 is not challenging and thus makes it seem there is some flaw but it’s really simply lack of challenging content outside highfrac.

I can make up ridiculous claims as well.

The core issue is that this community is terribly afraid of difficulty.
Every time Anet makes difficult content they cry until it’s toned down to a DPS zergfest.
Anet needs to make hardmodes and give both the EZ community and us content for our required difficulty.

Yeah…that’s it. It’s not that the game completely lacks any depth at all, it’s simply that the stellar combat system is just too easy. Instead of spamming the 1 key over and over and over, I should have to make use of all those other completely worthless abilities on my bar! Suddenly the ability to dash behind my enemy will become amazing! And teleporting to my target will become far more amazing than simply a quick gap closer when I’m feeling lazy.

Thank goodness you were here to make all our wonderful skills useful again! Somehow…by not actually making them worthwhile. I mean…sure, they’ll be even WORSE than they already are, but yeah! That’s the way to fix it! /sarcasm.

(Tuluum.9638
Honestly, I think the biggest improvement in PvE content in any game will come with advancing AI. Programmers have yet to come even close to the unpredictability and “fight” of a person controlling what happens. Might even be interesting to implement a system where in the large event DEs a programmer, or predesignated player, takes control of the NPC. It could serve as a good placeholder until AI gets to a more capable level. edit: You might even be able to make it a part of the group/party mechanic where predesignated players of the group would take on the roles of the different “big baddies” in the main boss fights of dungeons, fractals, etc. Though, it would be extremely open to exploitation obviously.)

You know, it really would be awesome if the dragons could be human controlled. If they don’t want to pay people to do it then maybe they could have a list where people could sign up for it or guilds could pay influence for the chance.