Guild Wars 2

So, on my first character, I am trying to find the fun in the combat system. I’m really struggling. I rolled a Charr Thief.

1. The rune/skill/weapon system in the game seems incredibly counter-intuitive. I’m sure this problem will go away when I learn the game — are there any meaningful tutorials that assumes the system makes no sense and explains everything?

2. Going by the few ability slots, rotation doesn’t seem complex. In fact, it seems extremely casual. However, the system mixes in action elements like dodging which appear to be necessary in order not to die. To me, Wildstar is a joke because it is too action-oriented — is GW2 going to be plagued with the same problem?

3. Thiefs. I understood going into this game really doesn’t have a stealth class, but so far I just don’t see how this character is going to go out ganking anything if the opponent sees you coming a mile away. Escapes seems powerful though…is Thief really just for trolling?

4. Voice acting. It’s….atrocious. Maybe my expectations have been too heavily skewed by WoW and SWTOR, but is there some way to listen to my character in battle without cringing? Do you just become desensitized to it? Are there other races with better voice acting? kitten .

think maybe you’re used to the whole ‘stand still and cast’ method to find it fun.

In an intuitive MMORPG system, movement is for positioning and getting around obstacles. Your combat performance comes from knowing your class, knowing your rotations, knowing your fights, theorycrafting and itemization. As far as I can tell, GW2 has all of that — rotations are pretty simplified, okay. Itemization seems like a failure based on my limited experience (specifically with PvP). But, do I have to seriously develop muscle memory for dodges?

Yes, dodging is essential to playing even marginally well in this game. As you learn the tells for different skills (both for pvp and pve playing), you’ll learn when to time your dodges.

Yes you actually will have to learn to dodge.

I don’t have the experience to compare GW2 to other games, but combat here can involve a lot of action, especially on thief. It doesn’t necessarily have to on other classes (or in PvE). Try necro, guard, or mesmer, perhaps. (Necro has a health shield of sorts, mesmer can distract npcs very easily, and guard’s just tough with some solid self-heals.) I get away with not dodging much, but I’m a pretty casual player.
Haven’t played charr — I don’t have strong opinions on other voice acting (except the humans can get a little annoying). My first characters were all asura. I liked the PS enough I made a few so that I could see all of the options.

The combat is amazing, just takes a really long time to get used to.

When i started playing the combat felt easy, shallow and very spammy, but the better you get the more you understand just how deep the combat is, and how badly you will get destroyed if you use your abilities at the wrong time.

Check out some thief videos online, you will see just how gankable your class is… Stealth in gw2 is a bit over the top. Used to be a lot worse though.

But yeah, the more you learn about your class, enemy classes. And the game, the better the combat gets.

You have to learn when to dodge. You have to learn how to move around well while dodging and using skills. You have to keep track of your combos and your CDs along with your movement within combat. This is the best combat system I have played within any MMO and its the reason I’m still playing. The game isn’t based just on hitting skills and keeping track of CDs because thats boring and doesn’t involve much skill…

The way you fight in this game shows your knowledge of the game and your class. You move and use skills well with good timings then you will be rewarded but make mistakes and the enemy can punish you. This keeps the combat fun and entertaining.

GUTB.8436:

Going by the few ability slots, rotation doesn’t seem complex. In fact, it seems extremely casual. However, the system mixes in action elements like dodging which appear to be necessary in order not to die. To me, Wildstar is a joke because it is too action-oriented — is GW2 going to be plagued with the same problem?

If you consider needing to dodge in WS a problem, then yes.

/thread

“However, the system mixes in action elements like dodging which appear to be necessary in order not to die. To me, Wildstar is a joke because it is too action-oriented — is GW2 going to be plagued with the same problem?”

Combat is one of the things that Anet got right. The combat is amazing. Why? Because of the dodge. Because it’s action oriented.

GUTB.8436:

3. Thiefs. I understood going into this game really doesn’t have a stealth class, but so far I just don’t see how this character is going to go out ganking anything if the opponent sees you coming a mile away. Escapes seems powerful though…is Thief really just for trolling?

4. Voice acting. It’s….atrocious. Maybe my expectations have been too heavily skewed by WoW and SWTOR, but is there some way to listen to my character in battle without cringing? Do you just become desensitized to it? Are there other races with better voice acting? kitten .

3. I know where you’re coming from with Thieves. I too expected more stealth time, instead of small bursts of it. But it’s important to know that when you stealth, enemies can not target you, and some of your attacks (attack #1) change. It’s all about having that moment to catch people off guard and using it to your advantage, or getting away when you’re in trouble. I believe there ARE ways to get more than short bursts of stealth, but even then it’s just longer “bursts” of it, you never just stealth and stay hidden.

It’s less ninja, more anime “flash step”.

4. Character voices are what they are. If you don’t like the charr voices (and some do not), you may prefer other races. It’s largely a matter of opinion as to which ones are good and which are not. For storyline and lore reasons, I do suggest trying one of each race at least up through the level 30 personal story at some point. (At level 40, the personal story shifts away from racially based and becomes based on the order you choose at the end of the level 30 arc.)

If the voice of your charr bothers you too much, there is always the option of trying again with the other gender so you have a different voice actor.

First you have to unlearn everything you know about MMOs. Then you can begin playing.

So….there’s no defensive stat? Dodge, parry, block, etc? Basically, you dodge or you can die? That seems to leave my Thief with two stats only, is that the same for the other classes?

There are definitely defensive skills (both from specific weapon skills and from utilities). As a thief, you have lots of blinds to protect you from getting hit. But no, you won’t be able to dodge attacks without actively dodging. Some classes come with invulnerability skills, but if you’re in a fight that requires you not getting hit, you’ll need to dodge more often than you’ll have the chance to use said skills in a fight.

thief sword/pistol 3 is both a stun and an evade, pistol 4 is an interrupt, pistol 5 is an area blind (pulsing?) and sword 2 is shadowstep (which can be used evasively once you learn the class)

i found that weapon combination great for levelling.

First a few thing: low level open-world PvE is not the best place to see the combat mechanics shine I believe. For most part, the enemies are not very smart and you rarely need all of your skills because you can often just deal damage and melt everything without too much thinking.

I personally feel like the combat system really starts shining at higher levels and even more in competitive modes (sPvP in particular).

I personally didn’t like the combat system at first. I even quitted the game without any of my char going pass level 25. But I came back some months after, finally found a class which ticked (mesmer in my case) and I managed to go up to level 80 with it, and the more I leveled up, the more I enjoyed the combat system. Now I have all professions and I love everyone of them (though I still have my favorites). It just takes time to get to love it.

GUTB.8436:

So….there’s no defensive stat? Dodge, parry, block, etc? Basically, you dodge or you can die? That seems to leave my Thief with two stats only, is that the same for the other classes?

Well to be correct, there are defensive stats (What we usually refer to as “Passive Defenses” here).

Toughness
Vitality
Healing Power

But in general you will do much better to learn to rely on the “Active Defenses”, things like:

Dodge, Blind, Protection, Aegis, Stealth, Blocks, Invulnerabilities etc.

Thief especially is quite “Squishy” and in general doesn’t synergy very well with the passive defenses. If you want to rely more on the passive defenses I’d recommend Warrior, Guardian or Ranger (to some extent). Both Warrior and Guardian can be played very tanky, and can stand still without dodging most normal grunts (not too many at a time), and 1-2 veterans. But just to be clear, you’re not supposed to be able or tank a champion or world boss etc.

Ranger gets its pet, which often takes most pve enemies attention, so you can stand back and shoot them to death. This doesn’t always work as well in every game mode though, and in harder content like Dungeons etc the pets often just die to big aoe attacks. But they are fairly easy for most of the open world content.

The combat in this game is meant to be active, if you don’t like that, chances are you won’t enjoy this game very much A friend of mine complained that he felt so useless in GW2, so I sat down with him and watched how he played, and gave him some advice. And the moment he realized that with simple movement, strafing, dodging, using aegis and blinds on his guard, he could kill a grunt without taking ANY damage at all, you saw him realize how much he could do with the game.

GUTB.8436:

So….there’s no defensive stat? Dodge, parry, block, etc? Basically, you dodge or you can die? That seems to leave my Thief with two stats only, is that the same for the other classes?

there are no passive stats based on % chance to dodge/parry/block. The game is about being active and there are skills you can use to evade/block on top of the dodge mechanic.

% dodge/parry/block is lazy and boring.

As a thief you have access to skills that let you evade or throw out blinds.

As others have said, look to your skills, both weapon and utility. Other than dodging, this is where your true defensive power lies, and it generally requires you to learn when and where to use it.

Once you get the hang of that, you may find some traits that help as well. It takes time to get the hang of it, but it’s actually a fairly nice system (usually).

If you simply don’t like the more active combat style, however, then I don’t think any of this will make you enjoy it more in the long run. Unless you’re just mowing down weak targets, GW2 combat is fairly active and reaction based.

Thieves are very squishy, and quite hard to play in PvP (despite what every non thief player thinks). You have to use dodges, stealth and blind to avoid damage. Getting locked down is a real problem.

GW2 is an extremely action-ey game, even more then Wildstar. It’s not horrendously bad (well, it is in SOME ways, but that’s another rant…), but it IS very reflex based. Based on your OP, I suspect this is just not the game you are looking for.

Struggling with getting the combat right is perfectly normal. After my first day of playing I was talking to the guy who introduced me to the game. He asked my how it was, and I responded with “The Blood Fiend has a better grasp of GW2’s tactics than I do and dies only half as often.” If only that was hyperbole.
Seriously, the first time I saw a Flame Legion charr in Ashford I mistook it for another player and tried to go say “hi” to it. Of course it immediately attacked me, chasing me around and I was all like “I THOUGHT GW2’S PVE WAS SUPPOSED TO BE CO-OP!?!”
Just saying, you can’t always expect everything to be your individual idea of intuitive. Getting into any game for the first time can be a confusing experience that may not be what you wanted or expected.

Agree with some of the above responses-I started when game released and only got a couple classes to 30ish or so and the combat system didn’t really grab me and pull me in-I “came back” about 4 months ago and started researching the classes, builds and rotations and have found the combat system in game is much deeper, complex and more fun than most other MMOs I have played-I now have 4 classes at 80 cannot wait until HOT is released, and I like the game and the combat more every day-the more I learn the more I understand the more I take to it.

I think if you keep with it and keep playing your thief ( a class I have not played but pawns me pretty good in pvp quite often-every class does but it is still fun btw) you will like it more and more-the lower levels are kind of ho-hum at first until you get the rhythm and rhyme of the zone events, hearts, gathering, and exploration.

The players in this game make it worthwhile alone-the game is designed around cooperation and working together, so look at the “whole picture” of the game and the entire experience, the combat is a major proponent of that but it is still just one part of the game as a whole.

Hope the game is one you will like for a long time and if it seems to be a struggle just find things in it to keep you moving on in game and it will all come together, at higher levels you will love the variety and options of the possible combat builds you can create.

TLDR- The game and players you will meet are awesome and the combat just gets better and more fun the more you play and experience =0)

sounds like you need FF14. stand still until things are dead and then move to the next area and stand still again

You probably chose the class that will most hammer home the need to dodge. Thieves don’t have a very tanky build set up and the best you’ll do to survive damage is by hiding in stealth a bunch. But since hiding doesn’t let you kill you have to use blinds and evades from dodges and your skills to stay alive. They can do pretty insane dps but they put the glass in glass cannon because you will be downed by a single hit from higher difficulty enemies.

I could see the combat system taking some getting used to (I was a fan of original GW so I followed development of this game and knew what to expect when it launched). Though for me personally once you get used to it it’s actually really good. If I go to play a different game I’ll find myself trying to cast while running or using my dodge keybind and wondering why it didn’t do anything. The combat is very mobile and reflexive and is pretty fun once you get the hang of it. I have to agree with others too having passive avoidance stats are boring, it’s much more fun to know you timed a pistol whip to survive something that should’ve destroyed you than it is raising a % high enough that you happened to avoid it.

You may want to try Guardian, Warrior, or Necromancer if you want a class that can take a few hits before needing to dodge while you’re learning the game. Thief along with glass builds on the other classes really require you know your damage avoidance.

I can’t help but think that substituting actual RPG mechanics for action mechanics is console-y and actually pretty pathetic. All I’m saying is, even in it’s currently severely dumbed-down state, WoW has:

Attack Power
Spell Power
Intelligence
Stanima
Armor
Avoidance
Strength
Dexterity
Mastery
Versatility
Haste
Multistrike
Crit
Spirit
Dodge
Block
Parry

As far as I can tell, at least for my Thief, GW2 has:

Precision
Power
Armor
Vitality

In addition, I have a very simple 2-key rotation (auto-attack and heartseeker). Using the blind + heartseeker combo to get into stealth seems to be a clunky and expensive way to get a little bit of stealth. It also takes quick and accurate mouse action to accomplish in a useful manner.

@OP

Ohhhhh man I feel you. Seriously. That is exactly what I felt when GW2 first came out… Never leveled past 35 with any character because everything just felt… Boring. And I came from WoW as well at that point and before that EQ2 where I had at least 30+ skills on my bar and in WoW I had 7 action bars with macros and items!

I left of course, similarly to what others have mentioned here. I came back quite a bit later and all of a sudden it just clicked. It may have been PvP that did it, though.

In open world you’ll likely never NEED more than one weapon set and MAYBE your heal skill… But in literally every other game mode you’re using your whole kitten kit and BOTH weapon sets.

For thief that’s 10 weapon skills and 5 utilities plus your mechanic which is essentially two more skills. That’s 17 skills… Very similar to most other popular MMOs as far as “the amount of skills you get”. Most classes have way more than thief, too. Like ele and engi.

And as far as stats go, yes, there are about half of what most other MMOs have but in this game those non-primary stats are carried as components in your skills. Avoidance, blocked, dodging, immunity and different boons will counter certain conditions or situations similarly to how you might need more of one stat to counter another persons stat.

This game had a lot more active parts to combat that you haven’t yet had the experience using.

I can absolutely PROMISE it gets more intricate.

WOW plays more like a strategy game, which is fitting since it was originally developed from a modified RTS game engine.

GW2 plays like a platformer or fighting game. The gameplay is in the timing and positioning, not the rotations.

Don’t get confused because they are both “MMORPGSs.” The combat of the two games is in entirely different genres.

GUTB.8436:

I can’t help but think that substituting actual RPG mechanics for action mechanics is console-y and actually pretty pathetic. All I’m saying is, even in it’s currently severely dumbed-down state, WoW has:

Attack Power
Spell Power
Intelligence
Stanima
Armor
Avoidance
Strength
Dexterity
Mastery
Versatility
Haste
Multistrike
Crit
Spirit
Dodge
Block
Parry

As far as I can tell, at least for my Thief, GW2 has:

Precision
Power
Armor
Vitality

In addition, I have a very simple 2-key rotation (auto-attack and heartseeker). Using the blind + heartseeker combo to get into stealth seems to be a clunky and expensive way to get a little bit of stealth. It also takes quick and accurate mouse action to accomplish in a useful manner.

you missed toughness and ferocity for your thief’s stats. you could substitute condition damage, too – thieves have some pretty good condi application through shortbow.

also…

Wow no longer has dodge/block/parry. They have been folded into other stats or removed as a stat you can/must stack entirely.
Dex/Int/Str are all ‘power’. Actually, they’re both ‘power’ & ‘condition damage’, depending on what class you play. plus, all gear comes with these stats, so it’s not that you choose to invest in it – you have x amount of str, and you can’t really do anything about that (besides upgrade your gear, through vertical progression that guild wars does not have nor want)

crit is precision. Multistrike is also precision, albeit one that operates by a slightly different mechanic. It’s – how can i put this? – it’s needlessly forced build diversity. You critically strike or you hit multiple times but for less damage individually, but more overall, so essentailly the same thing

Versatility is, in essence, the invisible stat which gw2 characters get by investing in certain trait lines and/or meeting certain conditions. it’s build rather than gear based, which only enhances build diversity.

spirit does nothing but affect resource regen, and even then at a very poor rate of return – if you were playing a rogue in wow, you would gain no benefit from spirit either. It’s a stat taken out of necessity rather than by choice, and as such, it actually hurts build diversity.

Finally, the only stat which gw2 actually lacks, is haste. It’s not a stat, it’s a boon, ie a temporary buff – bloodlust or heroism, if you will. It’s available from many sources, but is (in about 95% of cases) extremely brief in duration. it’s intended, quite appropriately, to be something used tactically, fitting with this game’s very reactive rather than watch-the-timers gameplay.

And then there’s ferocity, or critical damage, which WoW completely lacks. So overall, i think this game has greater build diversity.

Thing to understand, OP… This is not like any normal MMO, everything is very different (I remember going from WoW to this, It was very strange to me) And it might not even be your style, everyone has different opinions when It comes to MMOs.

I honestly hate the stand still style, I love being active and moving instead of sitting there spaming a rotation then moving two steps to avoid the badness.

GUTB.8436:

I can’t help but think that substituting actual RPG mechanics for action mechanics is console-y and actually pretty pathetic. All I’m saying is, even in it’s currently severely dumbed-down state, WoW has:

Attack Power
Spell Power
Intelligence
Stanima
Armor
Avoidance
Strength
Dexterity
Mastery
Versatility
Haste
Multistrike
Crit
Spirit
Dodge
Block
Parry

As far as I can tell, at least for my Thief, GW2 has:

Precision
Power
Armor
Vitality

In addition, I have a very simple 2-key rotation (auto-attack and heartseeker). Using the blind + heartseeker combo to get into stealth seems to be a clunky and expensive way to get a little bit of stealth. It also takes quick and accurate mouse action to accomplish in a useful manner.

Lol, gonna have some fun here.

First of all, since you show very little understanding of WoW if you’re gonna lump all of those different stats together, it’s a very good chance you’re misunderstanding GW2’s on a deeper level.

So anyway, all of the stats you listed and claim to be missing are actually in GW2 (and then some), you’re choosing to base your experience on a low level character. You’re probably new to MMO’s in general but a good rule of thumb is to not hop on a pedestal the first chance you get if you feel like the game’s too difficult for you.

Power – this is your direct damage and what most skills scale off of.
Condition – this is what adds strength to skills that apply conditions such as burns and poisons.
Vitality – health and sole mitigating factor against condition damage (conditions ignore armor)
Toughness – armor and one of two mitigating factors against power (health is the second component)
Precision – crit chance. You want lots of this to crit, shocking.
Ferocity – crit damage. You also want this for crits to hurt. Amazing! You’re now learning things.

Now onto the rest that you claim to be missing;

Dodge – we have this, except instead of being lazy and adding a trinket to gears that boost dodge, you have to actually pay attention to the game and not just the UI to function at all.

Block/Parry – we have block AND THREE similar things in this department: aegis, invulnerability, and protection. In addition to some skills outright blocking, there are also these;

Aegis completely blocks a skill, preventing damage and the effect. (some skills are unblockable but there aren’t a lot of those) Invulnerability is, well duh, what makes you completely invulnerable to damage. And protection reduces damage across the board by 33%. You can stack more via traits and skills but that’s really up to you to find out instead of complaining on the forums.

And because gw2 is so generous, there’s a yet another defensive stat – stability! This status negates any CC (crowd control FYI, just gotta throw that out since you probably needed it) thus preventing you from being stunned, dazed, knocked down, and a whole bunch of nasty things that can and will be done to you a lot unless you learn how to dodge or block.

And I’m not even finished with block! Not only can you actively mitigate enemy damage, you can do your favorite thing and passively (read: lazy) way and apply conditions like weakness that will cause all hits to deal glancing damage (reduced damage). Poison reduces healing too, chill increases cooldown along with slowing movement, and so on. Hell, the stealth that you claim to be useless is pretty good at mitigating damage by lieu of being untargettable, unseen, and giving you the opportunity to strike hard and freely. Apparently there’s more to the game than heartseeker spam on your thief, it seems like.

Now onto your thief – please read the tooltips carefully and learn the many different fields and finishers if you don’t want to embarass yourself in pvp and on the forums. For example, smoke field + leap finisher combined will cause yourself to stealth. While it’s a far cry from long lasting stealth of other games, thieves in this game are REALLY mobile and capable of reapplying stealth again and again and again that, honestly, it’s a real headache to deal with them sometimes. You definitely can troll with thief a bit, that’s for sure.

Secondly, if you find that difficult to do on a thief, well, it’s simply a L2P issue rather than claiming the game’s entire combat system is ‘horrendously bad’. I found that funny, by the way. Also, the skills on the right side are called utilities and, surprise, they are generally useful skills on almost any weapon you run with thief. Those of which include skills that give longer lasting stealth – oh my! Moreover, you can actually swap weapons in the middle of a fight so you have a second set of weapon skills for your thief. In addition to your dagger/pistol combo, you could take a shortbow for ranged pressure and teleport, dagger/dagger for the classic backstab/stealth playstyle, pistol/pistol for pew pew, and sword for damage, evasion, and teleport.

So not only do you need to understand GW2’s combat beyond autoattacking things to death, you definitely need to learn how to play thief. Come back on the forums anytime if you feel like learning things.

Welcome to GW2.

mic drop

GUTB.8436:

I can’t help but think that substituting actual RPG mechanics for action mechanics is console-y and actually pretty pathetic.
As far as I can tell, at least for my Thief, GW2 has:

Precision
Power
Armor
Vitality

In addition, I have a very simple 2-key rotation (auto-attack and heartseeker). Using the blind + heartseeker combo to get into stealth seems to be a clunky and expensive way to get a little bit of stealth. It also takes quick and accurate mouse action to accomplish in a useful manner.

So because something has action elements, it becomes “pathetic”? Whatever floats your boat man, but no need to kitten all over an entire genre of gaming….

In addition to the attributes you’ve listed, GW2 also has:
Condition dammage -burning, poison, torment, etc.
Condition duration -makes the above effects last longer
Ferocity -crit damage
Boon duration -increases the duration of things like might, swiftness, protection, etc.
Healing power -increases the amount you heal for when using healing skills
Toughness -increases armor (the armor you listed is derived from toughness and the armor you’re wearing)

No, it’s not as much as WoW, but again, the game is much more about active defense.

Finally, I’m not sure what level you are or what skills you have, but here’s a list of basically everything in the game that involves stealth. There is a lot more than just doing leap finishers through smoke fields:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stealth
Your combo for stealth may feel clunky now, but as you get used to it, and how combos work in general, it’ll feel second nature.

Again, GW2 is much more action oriented. If that’s not what you want, it’s just not for you. I’d give it a bit more time so that you can at least start messing around with traits, but hey, even if you just quit right now, at least it was free.

EDIT: it seems other people have gone and done a better job of answering this post than me. Hope it helped anyway.

Everyone here has already talked about dodging but I will make a different suggestion for you in addition to that good advice. Every class physically has a VERY different feel in combat. I too first started as a thief and struggled with it, I was dying constantly! I had a much easier time trying out other professions and then returning to a thief type. The thing is that Thief is one of the weakest when taking hits and demands the perfect timing not just on dodges but also with initiative.

If you like the idea of using daggers and up close combat you can try a dagger elementalist or dagger necromancer, of the two necromancer has much more survivability but puts out less damage than an elementalist. Or you could go the route of a warrior if you want something more tanky. Guardian is extremely good at survival.

Op sounds like he’s trolling. Either that, or he prefers the whole ‘stand still and cast spells till one of us is dead’ combat system in which case gw2 isn’t the game for you.

You would probably find Wow better suited for you. The combat system there is pretty brain dead.

GUTB.8436:

So, on my first character, I am trying to find the fun in the combat system. I’m really struggling. I rolled a Charr Thief.

1. The rune/skill/weapon system in the game seems incredibly counter-intuitive. I’m sure this problem will go away when I learn the game — are there any meaningful tutorials that assumes the system makes no sense and explains everything?

2. Going by the few ability slots, rotation doesn’t seem complex. In fact, it seems extremely casual. However, the system mixes in action elements like dodging which appear to be necessary in order not to die. To me, Wildstar is a joke because it is too action-oriented — is GW2 going to be plagued with the same problem?

3. Thiefs. I understood going into this game really doesn’t have a stealth class, but so far I just don’t see how this character is going to go out ganking anything if the opponent sees you coming a mile away. Escapes seems powerful though…is Thief really just for trolling?

4. Voice acting. It’s….atrocious. Maybe my expectations have been too heavily skewed by WoW and SWTOR, but is there some way to listen to my character in battle without cringing? Do you just become desensitized to it? Are there other races with better voice acting? kitten .

Forget about the voice acting. It is horrible.

As for combat, you are just barely seeing the 1st layer of it in dodging and are missing many features, especially on thieves. Experiment with various mechanics, start using your Stealth Openers, Combo Fields and Finishers. Learn to use their effects.

Later on in game you will be interacting with other peoples combo fields and finishers on coordinated level. Learn which weapons and utility skills give you which fields and finishers.

Also, if thief doesnt have enough skills for you, then I highly recommend engineer. you can run around with 29 skills available with 4 kits slotted, can go higher actually. But on the other hand, if you cant even fully get thief, you may have an even much harder time juggling engi kit skills.

GUTB.8436:

I can’t help but think that substituting actual RPG mechanics for action mechanics is console-y and actually pretty pathetic. All I’m saying is, even in it’s currently severely dumbed-down state, WoW has:

Attack Power
Spell Power
Intelligence
Stanima
Armor
Avoidance
Strength
Dexterity
Mastery
Versatility
Haste
Multistrike
Crit
Spirit
Dodge
Block
Parry

As far as I can tell, at least for my Thief, GW2 has:

Precision
Power
Armor
Vitality

In addition, I have a very simple 2-key rotation (auto-attack and heartseeker). Using the blind + heartseeker combo to get into stealth seems to be a clunky and expensive way to get a little bit of stealth. It also takes quick and accurate mouse action to accomplish in a useful manner.

As a former WoW vet (and having loved that game in the past)… You are so wrong it’s just bad.

Not only did you list so many stats are now useless or “auto’d” onto gear because of your class, you threw in random stuff that doesn’t even exist or has no meaning at all.

WoW Class Specs only have a use for 2 (if healer or tank, 3) stats on gear which you now attempt to roll on every piece. There is absolutely 0 customization to your gear except getting a higher item level.

So you might want to shorten your list to 2 stats (and ignore Str, Agi, Int as they now only roll for the class that you are and are technically built into the gear and have become entirely useless other than boosting you through the iLevel of the item)

If anything, these days in WoW it goes like this:

GEAR! Does it have versatility? Yes? Trash. No? Keep going.

Is it higher item level? No? Trash. Yes? Equip.

Done. Much complex, very hard. From your post it seems like you need a game that’s much more simple than even WoW, stand, press buttons, kill, loot.

Tongku.5326:

GUTB.8436:

So, on my first character, I am trying to find the fun in the combat system. I’m really struggling. I rolled a Charr Thief.

1. The rune/skill/weapon system in the game seems incredibly counter-intuitive. I’m sure this problem will go away when I learn the game — are there any meaningful tutorials that assumes the system makes no sense and explains everything?

2. Going by the few ability slots, rotation doesn’t seem complex. In fact, it seems extremely casual. However, the system mixes in action elements like dodging which appear to be necessary in order not to die. To me, Wildstar is a joke because it is too action-oriented — is GW2 going to be plagued with the same problem?

3. Thiefs. I understood going into this game really doesn’t have a stealth class, but so far I just don’t see how this character is going to go out ganking anything if the opponent sees you coming a mile away. Escapes seems powerful though…is Thief really just for trolling?

4. Voice acting. It’s….atrocious. Maybe my expectations have been too heavily skewed by WoW and SWTOR, but is there some way to listen to my character in battle without cringing? Do you just become desensitized to it? Are there other races with better voice acting? kitten .

Forget about the voice acting. It is horrible.

As for combat, you are just barely seeing the 1st layer of it in dodging and are missing many features, especially on thieves. Experiment with various mechanics, start using your Stealth Openers, Combo Fields and Finishers. Learn to use their effects.

Later on in game you will be interacting with other peoples combo fields and finishers on coordinated level. Learn which weapons and utility skills give you which fields and finishers.

Also, if thief doesnt have enough skills for you, then I highly recommend engineer. you can run around with 29 skills available with 4 kits slotted, can go higher actually. But on the other hand, if you cant even fully get thief, you may have an even much harder time juggling engi kit skills.

Up to 45 skills, even. Some day I’ll use all of them in a viable build….

Ele’s can get 46 in a conjure build but nobody uses those, lol. (but I also wish I could).

GUTB.8436:

In addition, I have a very simple 2-key rotation (auto-attack and heartseeker).

http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Thief_-_D/D_S/P_Shortbow

If you like rotations, play an engineer
http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Engineer_-_Power_Grenadier

GUTB.8436:

To me, Wildstar is a joke because it is too action-oriented — is GW2 going to be plagued with the same problem?

WildStar is an action MMORPG, what did you expect? GW2 is a hybrid action MMORPG. GW2 is basically the same in terms of combat, except you’re given the option to automatically aim at your target.

GUTB.8436:

Do you just become desensitized to it?

Yeah you do, the human male voice has always annoyed me, its same guy that voiced one of the SWTOR characters that I disliked also, but as you guessed, over time you just stop noticing it.
It takes quite some time to adjust to GW2 after you have played games like WoW and SWTOR, I would say it took me 2 years before I stopped comparing it to WoW, but now, I don’t look back at all, this game is pretty amazing when you get your head around it.

What are you trying to accomplish with theif? If you’re doing PvE you should be dagger dagger and you rotation includes stealth with 5 which changes your 1 skill to do much more damage while in stealth with the right traits.

If you’re doing pvp, stealth is only half of theif tactics. Using teleport skills like with shadow step is also very important to master. What dark fields are you using anyway to get stealth with leaps?

GUTB.8436:

In an intuitive MMORPG system, movement is for positioning and getting around obstacles. Your combat performance comes from knowing your class, knowing your rotations, knowing your fights, theorycrafting and itemization. As far as I can tell, GW2 has all of that — rotations are pretty simplified, okay. Itemization seems like a failure based on my limited experience (specifically with PvP). But, do I have to seriously develop muscle memory for dodges?

Rotation is simplified because one good enemy dodge completely negates your rotation. You have to be more creative when fighting other players. You can’t really stick to that simple rotation.

And it’s the same as other games here. The combat system here is way better than 99.999 percent of mmorpg. If you can’t enjoy it, it’s your problem.

Exciton.8942:

GUTB.8436:

In an intuitive MMORPG system, movement is for positioning and getting around obstacles. Your combat performance comes from knowing your class, knowing your rotations, knowing your fights, theorycrafting and itemization. As far as I can tell, GW2 has all of that — rotations are pretty simplified, okay. Itemization seems like a failure based on my limited experience (specifically with PvP). But, do I have to seriously develop muscle memory for dodges?

Rotation is simplified because one good enemy dodge completely negates your rotation. You have to be more creative when fighting other players. You can’t really stick to that simple rotation.

And it’s the same as other games here. The combat system here is way better than 99.999 percent of mmorpg. If you can’t enjoy it, it’s your problem.

If you look at his post history he just talks about WoW in every post.

Which is odd because combat in WoW with rotations has become the most simple combat in any MMORPG ever, except maybe Trove because that is literally just 2 buttons.

GUTB.8436:

So, on my first character, I am trying to find the fun in the combat system. I’m really struggling. I rolled a Charr Thief.

1. The rune/skill/weapon system in the game seems incredibly counter-intuitive. I’m sure this problem will go away when I learn the game — are there any meaningful tutorials that assumes the system makes no sense and explains everything?

2. Going by the few ability slots, rotation doesn’t seem complex. In fact, it seems extremely casual. However, the system mixes in action elements like dodging which appear to be necessary in order not to die. To me, Wildstar is a joke because it is too action-oriented — is GW2 going to be plagued with the same problem?

3. Thiefs. I understood going into this game really doesn’t have a stealth class, but so far I just don’t see how this character is going to go out ganking anything if the opponent sees you coming a mile away. Escapes seems powerful though…is Thief really just for trolling?

4. Voice acting. It’s….atrocious. Maybe my expectations have been too heavily skewed by WoW and SWTOR, but is there some way to listen to my character in battle without cringing? Do you just become desensitized to it? Are there other races with better voice acting? kitten .

Really? Get out of here troll!!!

im dying laughing because he said console-y. like consoles have some… different controls or something. PC players actually use console controllers too bud, can console games. FF14? guess what, its on console! oh no!!!

lol I can have fun with this all day. please done delete thread

Relying on stats to determine the outcome of battles is precisely what this game is not. In games like WoW, a quick glance at someone’s ilvl tells you whether you have a chance to win or if you should just roll over and die. Gear plays too big of a factor in PvP for older MMO’s like WoW. Where as in GW2, stats determine your build, they have more to do with build variety than anything else. Gear isn’t that big of a deal in this game, and it’s about darn time people get to use their skills and knowledge of the game to win fights. I wouldn’t be playing GW2 if I had to gear grind, just so I could then go boss other players with my superior gear level.

Yes it’s true there are paper, rock, scissors when it comes to build vs build, but that’s the case with other MMO’s as well.

So to many the reduced stats types are a good thing. The lack of a need to setup 3 rows of skills/action buttons and macros is a huge plus. And yes GW2’s action combat is considered by many an upgrade to the age old “stand and cast” system that older MMO’s use. Dodge rolls aren’t everything, you still have defensive stats and skills you can use. You have to watch your cooldowns just like other MMO’s, and make sure to not burn all your defensives or else yes, you’ll die.

Honestly it sounds like you haven’t leveled past lvl 30 because some of the things you said make no sense with regards to thieves. I would recommend try playing the class at max level and go on meta battle and get yourself a decent build. Play around with it more before you make judgments about the game & combat. I loved WoW and played it for many many years. But once I stepped into GW2, I found it hard to go back to stand & cast combat system.

GUTB.8436:

In an intuitive MMORPG system, movement is for positioning and getting around obstacles. Your combat performance comes from knowing your class, knowing your rotations, knowing your fights, theorycrafting and itemization. As far as I can tell, GW2 has all of that — rotations are pretty simplified, okay. Itemization seems like a failure based on my limited experience (specifically with PvP). But, do I have to seriously develop muscle memory for dodges?

Yes – you can’t just prepare everything outside of a fight and win – a player with better execution and reflexes will beat you even with inferior gear or a worse build in GW2.

To be honest, I think you should just play another game.
You seem to dislike all the things that people enjoy about gw2.
If you want an mmo that has more classical combat, but isn’t wow or swtor you can try Final Fantasy 14.
It has a 2 week trial, if I remember correctly.

GUTB.8436:

So….there’s no defensive stat? Dodge, parry, block, etc? Basically, you dodge or you can die? That seems to leave my Thief with two stats only, is that the same for the other classes?

Dodge and blocks are active, meaning you either use them or eat damage. Your idea of whats intuitive and what isnt is a bit weird.

‘Oh, theres one big punch headed my way! I’ll just stand still and hope my tshirt procs a dodge so i can avoid being knocked out’

Alright, I’ll try to explain everything you need to know, so here goes.

Unlike other games, GW2’s defence is mainly consisted of damage mitigation. That means blinds, reflects, CC, blocking, evading, invulnerability, etc. What you’re probably used to in other games is specifically picking out your stats to survive an encounter, as well as bringing a healer and a tank to the party to help everyone else survive. In GW2, even though there are defensive stats (Vitality and Toughness), they’re not as important as actively mitigating damage.

GW2 has an action-based combat, so it’s clear that you’ll need to adapt to it if you wanna play properly. Dodging is essential and moving around constantly is usually important. To be honest, I don’t know why you would even start playing GW2 if you didn’t like its combat…

About Thieves. They have PLENTY of stealth. It seems like your thief is still low level, so you haven’t acquired many skills or know how to use them. Here’s a list of a Thief’s means of stealthing.

-Cloak and Dagger (Dagger 5)
-Black Power + Heartseeker (Pistol 5 then Dagger 2 through the field)
-Black Power + Cluster Bomb (Pistol 5 then Shortbow 2 on it)
-Blinding Power (Utility)
-Shadow Refuge (Utility)
-Steal when traited with Hidden Thief
-Merciful Ambush (trait)
-Smoke Screen + Heartseeker (Utility then Dagger 2 through it)
-Smoke Screen + Cluster Bomb (Utility then Shortbow 2 on it)
-Hide in Shadows (Heal skill)

Now, about rotations. They’re not really meant to be complex. The game’s “difficulty” lies in active combat, movement and dodging. Now, of course, optimizing your DPS with perfect rotations is also a thing, but more advanced and only really relevant in dungeon speed clearing. If you like complex rotations, the most complex ones for dungeons are probably Sinister Engineer and D/F Elementalist. Look them up on Youtube.

There’s nothing we can do if you don’t like your character’s voice. You can probably mute it in the options.

Also, another thing you might be misintepreting about the game, is that levelling is a small part of it. The real things starts when you’re level 80.

GUTB.8436:

So, on my first character, I am trying to find the fun in the combat system. I’m really struggling. I rolled a Charr Thief.

1. The rune/skill/weapon system in the game seems incredibly counter-intuitive. I’m sure this problem will go away when I learn the game — are there any meaningful tutorials that assumes the system makes no sense and explains everything?

Pick the ones that buff might for PvE. Pick the ones that give you 3 seconds of invulnerability for free in PvP. There are about 3 other rune sets for niche situations, and the rest are worthless bloat. Never use anything but 6 of the same runes. Originally anet commented about how mixing and matching runes for different bonuses was going to be a priority functionality of the system, but they went back on that some years after release given how nobody cared what they did since the system has been poorly designed from the get-go and there have never been more than about 5 or so optimal rune sets out of the dozens that exist.

GUTB.8436:

2. Going by the few ability slots, rotation doesn’t seem complex. In fact, it seems extremely casual. However, the system mixes in action elements like dodging which appear to be necessary in order not to die. To me, Wildstar is a joke because it is too action-oriented — is GW2 going to be plagued with the same problem?

Yes, it’s a casual, bland DPS rotation with some on-demand invulnerability to break it up intermittently. GW2 is even worse off than W* regarding positioning anyway since the dodge gives you full invulnerability, damage is incredibly easy to hit, and nobody actually moves quickly at all in GW2 unless they bring a teleport button (no movement speed boost or movement skill that doesn’t directly teleport you out of line of sight will never mitigate incoming ranged damage by virtue of moving quickly).

GUTB.8436:

3. Thiefs. I understood going into this game really doesn’t have a stealth class, but so far I just don’t see how this character is going to go out ganking anything if the opponent sees you coming a mile away. Escapes seems powerful though…is Thief really just for trolling?

Thieves have always been conceptually overpowered. However, in practice, they are somewhat underpowered because GW2 is balanced around having access to huge amounts of perfect damage/status effect/CC effect negation. Thieves are effectively only just for trolling, yes. Their only legitimate “purpose” is in team fights as a freebie way to get enemy players to pop their panic buttons and get away for free, or as a what could effectively described as a player-shaped Lich Form autoattack on demand (typically only good after everyone has pressed their panic buttons). In short, given how combat is artificially lengthened so drastically by personal, on-demand invulnerability, it makes Thief only effective after about 30 seconds or so of a fight having already dragged on. If you don’t like playing passively around little countdown timers, this isn’t the game for you.

GUTB.8436:

4. Voice acting. It’s….atrocious. Maybe my expectations have been too heavily skewed by WoW and SWTOR, but is there some way to listen to my character in battle without cringing? Do you just become desensitized to it? Are there other races with better voice acting? kitten .

It’s an mmorpg, don’t play it for the voice acting—but yeah, it is pretty cringy.