Guild Wars 2

Many of us Guild Wars 2 players had experienced the following scenario.

We started the game upon release with many friends, along with much anticipation and excitement to match the hype. Now somewhere in our guild tab sits an empty guild that were once created with such joy: you as its only highlighted member and current location known.

After many failed attempts to revitalize the group I’ve gathered why the game lacked appeal to them. It was never about the lack of things to do, but about the feel of the skill as it relay the game to the player.

• Weapon skills are unimaginative- Most classes that can use a ranged projectile gets an ability that channels and shoots fast consecutively for dps. Most classes melee skills consists of a leap, a control, a parry, or a throw. Of courses there are instances of unique skills that brings flavor but that flavor often comes from the class itself (traits, stats, F-keys, mechanics).

The collection of underwater weapon skills seem much more “pretty” than land ones and contained more function (Elementalist lightning cage, ice wall and spike burst, Guardian light spears/wall), wishing that it was combined with land skills.

Plus forcing a certain set of skills unto a weapon leaves a player thinking, “I want to make my opponent bleed in melee but I like axes… time to roll a ranger and throw them instead.”

• Animations are repetitive and lack impact- Chain slashing and stand-still-quick-multislash are seen from any class that can use a sword or greatsword, beam projectiles look more like gentle wa kitten of air and puffs of smoke rather than an impactful hit (Guardian scepter attacks, focus/elite lightbeams, Mesmer bolts, Thieve explosive arrows), most melee abilities that share a weapon type have exact animations just with different particles.

• Function vs Cooldown vs Satisfaction-Cramming much utility into combat skills then placing long cooldowns on them makes it feel as if we are, at times, simply using auto attacks for too long. The skills that serve as utility (7 8 9), are chosen from a pool with viability already eliminating a percentage, and the useful ones do not stray far from what the class already does with weapons or mechanics (stealth, teleport, crowdcontrol, clones, stunbreaker).

Much situations, with correct positioning, turn into spam all skills, switch weapon, and repeat. Sadly, such play-style is not too ineffective.

Most skill simply lack the satisfaction of pulling it off, all skills seem to work in tiny unison steps to achieve the goal with simplicity akittens core. Not much of a feel of combos, or “look what I just pulled!”

• Complexity and Dual-wielding- There are issues of computer performance and balance to keep in mind of any MMO, but I rather it wouldn’t come at a sacrafice of enjoyability. There will always be complaints of imbalances, might as well push each class to its full extent and let each set of weapons combo with one another as well as with itself. Lower the weapon swap cooldown and increase the complexity of skill mechanics will transform the 5 keys per weapon spam into 10 keys of constant thrilling mess with strategies of when to do what (immobilize with my blade into a shot from my bow?).

Dual wielding simply doesn’t feel like dual wielding, more like “I hit you with this sword, and in 15 seconds I’ll hit you with my other one instead.” For animation, I’m by no means a tech guru, but is it possible to only see full animation of your own abilities and simplified versions of others in large encounters?

On an ending note, this thread is biased and at parts exaggerated. I just wish to generate discussion and let loose all my suppressed thoughts of an already excellent title.

My main character is ranger, i play BM build with GS/SB.Wherever i play the game(pvp or pve) my usual playstyle is take greatsword, mash all buttons, take SB, mash all buttons, then autoattack from the back.
Even if i want to play skillfully, there is not a lot what i can do.
a)put poison before heal
b)interrupt heal with dazes(interrupt postpone heal for 3 seconds, that is not very rewarding)
and that is all what i can think of.
Combat is good only on the surface, but if you try to find interesting choices, risk vs. reward tradeoffs, you won’t find a lot of them.
Suggestion:
Increase casting time for a lot of skills to 0.75-1 seconds.
Make interrupted skills to be put on full cooldown.
(those changes will reward players that actively interrupt foes, thus increasing the importance of control)
Give some skills endurance cost, for example 4 and 5 on twohanders have endurance cost, 3 on onehanders and 5 on offhanders have endurance cost.
(This will give a lot of defence/offence tradeoffs, also improving risk vs reward factor:
you tried to finish your enemy with 80 endurance cost hammer bash, he dodged and now you lost your advantage)

that was an intelligent post, thanks for the write up. However, and it may be my gw2 fanboy coming out, i have to disagree with some of it.

Specifically about everything and every class feeling the same. I’ve got an 80 of ranger, thief, ele, engi, and necro and i’ve got the other three classes on their way to 80 as well. The only time i’ve thought this is when i build characters who try to stack the same type of conditions like confusion, but what can you do, there’s only so many types.

With weapon skills, i think they did a great job staying unique. after all, you’re supposed to be able to watch your opponent and know what’s going on. Playing with the HUD off will help you to realize how much the combat is visual. seriously, try it. It’s awesome(easiest on an engi with 2 kits so something’s always off cooldown, btw). “same animations with different effects”: how many ways are there to swing a sword? the variety they’ve been able to get has been impressive to me. Example: ranger sword you’re doing flips and kicks and stuff in the auto attack

Each race even performs skills differently(from what i’ve heard), it’s not just how they hold the weapon. Like charr have less graceful leaps and such. Don’t quote me on this lol, i could have been wrong

And before i forget to address it, the thing i least agreed with was that weapons across different classes were mostly the same, ie swords and greatswords have flurry type skills. ranger-hellz no for both, their sword and greatsword very unique. and thief-no for sword, mesmer-no for greatsword it’s even ranged, guardian-no for greatsword, warrior-probably was the comparison. so in the end two other classes have a skill that is like a flurry of hits on either sword or GS, and in between that there are flavors like invulnerability, teleports, evades, etc which make them stand out for the class using them.

~
now, about the game being spam skills-> switch weapon, repeat…it sometimes seems this way, but when you’ve figured out a skill rotation with a class that works well, think about how you’re not really “spamming skills”, you’re doing that rotation for reasons that come from a dynamic skill system:

example: this is my “spamming” starting out each fight with my ranger. if things are done out of order, effectiveness goes down. start out with Longbow #3, combined with first strike the target now has 15 stacks of vulnerability. this makes my next skill rapid fire do more damage, and at the same time i activate my pet’s stealth so that his 6 seconds of critical hits land with the extra 15% damage boost from the vulnerability, and just as the target closes in, i’ll knock them back out with point blank shot. This gives me a 150% damage boost on my next skill, which i make sure goes to an ok-hitting skill swoop as i close the distance i’ve created. before/as they’er using their first skill of the fight, i use hilt bash to give my pet and i another 150% damage boost, which i now combine with my hardest hitting skill maul, and the damage goes from a 1200 hit to a 5k hit when it crits(70% crit dmg). as they’re recovering from stun i activate counterattack and wait for them to hit me, i block and attack back now down to only GS #1, which evades to make it stand out. at the end of the fight i’ve killed them quickly, and most times have 100% health if i dodge the one or two hits that can get through between the interrupts, knockbacks, blocks and evades.

after doing that combination against mobs over and over and over again, it starts to feel like spamming 3,2,4 ->switch to GS 3,5,2,4,1,1,1,11,1,1,1,1,1,1, but really it’s well thought out and takes advantage of how skills really are unique and the combo’s you can use in them.

Anyhow, this is some of my thoughts on why even though there’s a limited pool of skills, they do a good enough job keeping it fresh….hope you will try playing with no HUD, and it’ll open your eyes a little (makes for lots of screenshots too as you notice all the impressive landmarks and such around!)

I appreciate the time taken to read my wall of text as well as providing intriguing feedback.

I am by no means trying to diminish the effort and thoughts poured into Guild Wars 2. The landscape and map design may be one of my favorite aspect. It was a beautiful experience to see each zone in all its glory.

However seeing the current system, which too is top class in smoothness and responsiveness between skill usage and movement, I can’t help but wish it to achieve further than it currently sits.

>Malleus Maleficarum.2603

I agree that all class have an unique identity and plays differently, but what I find staleness in is the similarities between them as I switch characters in PvP/PvE.

To be honest, my favorite part was always building the character: reading all the traits and skills and piecing them together in a manner that would seem fun for me.

Though just as your passage suggests, once I determine the optimal buttons to press (planning and accessing done!), I am left with the same 5 buttons since level 10 and all the way in PvP that leaves me thinking, “Boy I enjoyed making all these numbers and skills come together wonderfully (taking my sweet time) and seeing my build succeed, but playing it really didn’t feel as satisfying as I imagined.” Or perhaps the execution simply wasn’t as mindful as the planning.

Maybe I demand too much finger work. Something like 5,2,Switch,1,2,4,Switch,1,2,2,3,… You get the idea. Lower swap cooldowns and skill combos are a dream personally (perhaps this belongs in suggestion subforum.).

But more flashy impactful animations for us metals&tool classes are too far fetched =p Even Guild Wars 1 rangers had cool auras of spikes and sigils when they fired the skill “crossfire”.

>Biggest let down of GW2, shrinking the orginial elementalist phoenix skill (as seen in proessfions section) from a full sized terror into a chicken

I strongly disagree with the OP, but it all comes down to a matter of personal taste at the end of the day. The profession you play may also factor into your enjoyment of the combat. And I can assure you, they all play differently.

Another issue may be whether you’re mostly playing pvp or pve. In pvp you have much more opportunity for variety and depth in combat since players are almost completely unpredictable. Mashing all your keys against a competent pvper is a sure way of getting killed.

As a thief, I can honestly say there are some sick moves/combos you can pull of using certain weapon sets, and in combination with utilities. Timing and positioning are two key variables you need to take into account in pvp in order to properly land your moves.
Depending on how you trait your character (as a thief anyway) you can have a completely different playstyle. You can build to be stealthy/sneaky, glass cannon burst, evasive/highly mobile, defensive, or trolly/abusive. Do you want to incorporate poisons into your build to give yourself extra damage/utility or sacrifice personal gains to be more supportive to your teammates? The options are all there, that’s just one profession.

Personally I think it’s the most enjoyable/visceral combat system of any MMO I’ve ever played. I find that a lot of people simply haven’t taken the time to fully understand or experiment with the possibilities of the various elements of their professions. Keep in mind that this is the way skilled players determine whether something is underpowered or needs work: by trying different things in different situations. If they find that something works too well or too poorly in enough situations, they conclude that the skill/trait/utility needs tuning.

>Deathless.8175

I agree with you on all the class plays very differently, perhaps I’m not clear enough on that in original post.

I also do main thief and in these 8 months or so I’ve done all the builds and all the pvp and pve content. Thief is a unique class with no cooldowns and so are each other class with its own unique mechanics (which I’ve also played most builds if not all). Some I like more than others, that is preference.

However the issue remains, I’m sure you know, that thieves spend initiative solely on needed skills. That each build one or two of the buttons unpushed. Blossom only for cond, before flankingstrike was bad until recently, p/d 3 skill is always underutilized, dont have to switch weapons at all unless escape or ranged to finish.

Again planning is the fun part. Figuring out how powerful the stealth tree with its cond removal and blind/heals and such was a blast, sword dazing enemies is a blast, and getting away 90% of the time is a blast (for the thief). But all my core idea of the post is that execution isn’t. Positioning 20%, button buttons 20%, building 60%. It wasn’t hard to land c&d and then hilt bash and auto chain and repeat (now we get flanking too i suppose but just a good change direly needed), with some shadowstep and refugee shinangans once in while.

I just desire the game to fully utilize its already limited buttons in a fashion that fuses both sets of weapons. Lowering swap cd for more chance to operate my weapons. Other classes have some cooldowns built into them so switching only means that you need to push some buttons to do something not because you want to but because its better than autoing.

I understand what you mean now. You can still chain skills between weapon sets, the only issue is you can’t switch back and forth whenever you please, which is a good thing in my opinion because it adds another level of strategy to your play (e.g., a badly timed switch is penalized by being stuck with the wrong weapon for a few more seconds).
On the issue of utilizing skills, that’s pretty difficult to fix. The point of strategy is to use what is most effective in the current situation. So by default, there will always be skills that barely (if ever) get used simply because they are not strategically effective in the situations you find yourself in. Being able to use all skills for most situations means less skill variety and less strategy because you can press whatever you want to similar effect. You can build to make certain skills more necessary than normal, but it would be impossible to make all of them necessary.
All I can really see is making certain skill more desirable and diverse but all that means is you have more buttons to press, which doesn’t help to alleviate the issue of button mashing. It’s very tricky.

Well, that is strange.One of you wants rotations just to be longer, other is fine with them as of right now.
I believe, that good combat is never about rotations.No matter how long they are, they are BORING, 5 buttons or 15.
Good combat is about pressuring the opponent and reacting to enemy’s pressure. If your enemy is aggressive, you have to react defensively, if your opponent is defensive you need to find a clever way to breach his defences, if your opponent is just bad you punish him by obliteration.That means, that every single skill has to be situational(where situation is defined by whose side has the advantage, and what sort of advantage it is), if you have 3-4 skills, that you are using all the time(and that is currently the case), then just unite them in 1 and call it autoattack.

another thing to consider is that this limited skill system is a trademark of GW2, and was even moreso in GW1 where you went out into an instance of the zone with 8 skills total, never any more. now I’m sure you’ve heard this before, but we get 10 weapon skill, a heal (and most classes have a field of some type in one of their heals for more interesting combinations), then the 3 utilities and the elite. obvious, of course. but what i’m saying is, in GW1 with cooldowns AND energy and only 8 skills, you would usually only bring a few damaging skills, and a couple utility. since it was a group game you never brought a heal unless you were a monk really.

What i’m trying to say is that this is an improvement on what skill rotations used to be like. you stuck with one weapon type doing only 8 skills and for the most part one role in a group of 8.

Having limited skillset and being locked into one rotation are completely different things.

Imo former made GW1 great, latter made GW2 not so great.
And being locked in one role is good.If it is done right.(Take Dota2, you are locked in one role for the whole game, still it is awesome game)

For the record I would be incredibly happy to get more than 3 or 5 skills per weapon,maybe able to swap out one skill for one from a second set of 3 or 5 would be cook for customization.

I believe the problem (in PvE) doesn’t lie within the skill system of the skill themselves, but in the mobs’ design. You can tweak the switch cooldown all you want, add all sorts of crazy combos to your skillbars, if the outcome of the fight doesn’t depend on your capacity to execute these combos well it won’t create any kind of depth or challenge.
Right now, who would ever create a general PvE build with a boon removal utility ? Or plan to use the anti-endurance effect of weakness ? Who would use Chill to counter a specific ‘high-power high-cooldown’ skill on a boss ?

GW2’s combat system is based on positionning, timing your dodges and blocks and making tactical decisions about when to use your skills, yet the AI hasn’t been designed to do that.
There are a lot of mobs with interesting mechanics. Skales with their regeneration that you need to counter, Skelks with their teleport that you need to dodge with good timing, but its motly one or two mechanic per creature and its never really making an extensive use of the game mechanics. The only mobs that can fire while moving, or dodge are centaurs and bandits, but even then, it’s just a skill giving the illusion that they use these mechanics, the dodge isn’t even using endurance.
So after the mob you’re fighting has used its only interesting mechanic you’re generally left with hittin a dummy, a dummy which then has to be filled with a lot of hp and damage to make it somewhat interesting.
I’m not asking for more difficulty, I’m asking for more challenge. “Challenge” here means something that stimulates you to act. A boss that insta-kill you without a warning is difficult without being challenging. But how about a boss who doesn’t necessarily deals a lot of damage but is quite resistant, not because of a lot of hp, but because it doddges often and well. There you actually have to find a good strategy to create openings in its defense, using poor little Weakness conditions to limit its dodges, chills, cripples and immobilizes to keep it in place, stuns and KD to time some spike damage and also using swiftness to stay on its toes and fury and power to make the few hits you can give it worth it. It’s challenging, but not necesarily difficult.

The base of GW2’s combat is good, but they need to use it more in depth in PvE to really make it what it deserves to be. I’m no even dreaming about mobs that memorize you skill rotation and will time their dodge right the next time you use a sequence they recognize. No, I’m only talking about ennemies that will move while firing their spells, will move to leave AoEs or stay a certain range from the players (especially if they have a shot like ranger longbow or mesmer greatsword), and also please, ennemies who do a few well-timed dodges here and there, using an endurance bar. Then just add a few boon and conditions and their removal (used intelligently of course, not just everytime they hit a certain percentage of hp) and it will already be a great deal of a change for this game since we would be able to make full use of all the crazy options our skills have to offer (like weakness).
Plus, if the PvE starts using all the game’s mechanics as extensively as PvP, splitting skills and traits between the two modes will be less and less needed.

>Tauril.8504

I do believe that PvE tends to get the short end of the stick in terms of full build exploration and further limits skill usage. Though its natural to have to try harder to fight other players in PvP. All your points are valid in terms of betterment of the game but that would be another discussion all together.

>Goorman.7916

I think that you really nailed the issue. It is true that keeping pressure and coming out on top is the key to good combat. Yet the current system saves no reason to not use any of the skills on your bar (for certain classes more than others).

There’s no reason to save your skills, use it asap. Sure you can hold on to your blind, or knockdown, or slow, and wait for a better chance to block a important hit but honestly it is not totally dependent on what your opponent does. Instead most cc’s are used instantly to apply pressure and wait for cd, otherwise you are just wasting good cc since they’ll be up again, quantity over quality.

This is not true in all cases of course but even skills that does cond or dmg still suffer from this.

• Mesmers just build up clones and either detonate or not dependent on build. The confusion of clones are kinda built in so more is always better. Usually not much of a reason to really keep watch what your foe is up to.

• Rangers just blast the poisons and cripples and back to auto with an optional aoe. I don’t use my poison to stop someone from healing its just there, up as much as possible and does some dot with the heal debuff doing its passive thing. No reason to ever hold on to cripple again just asap.

• Warriors are rally facerolly at times. Jump in bash, stun, dodge, hit, switch, bash, die or get killed. You can say that targeting are position are skillful as well as expecting dodge, but honestly it doesn’t factor in much in terms of holding on to your skills.

I could list more but if there’s insightful disagreement to convince me I’m not doing it right I’m always happy to learn.

Foehn.2489:

• Mesmers just build up clones and either detonate or not dependent on build. The confusion of clones are kinda built in so more is always better. Usually not much of a reason to really keep watch what your foe is up to.

You clearly havn’t mastered mesmer; you may’ve played them but you havn’t come close to truly understanding them.

Mesmer is an extremely tactile class; deciding when to use which skill in which order, adapting the skills and combos available to you to suit the situation, it can be extremely active in play-style; whether teleport kiting at range, bunkering down within a chaos storm or aggressively diving into a group of enemies and detonating a wall of clones within a blurred frenzy, or positioning yourself within your allies to maximise the spread of support skills and boons

If you go into PvP, or a high level fractal and “just build up clones and either detonate or not” you will fail, utterly; you’ll be hurling your clones into AoE, or into a dodge or into a blocking enemy, and then when you really need that phase retreat or that decoy to break the stun and get out of dodge – too bad. You burned it needlessly earlier. Even “phantasm builds” are still advised to use shatters; the difference is a matter of timing and situational awareness

In solo PvE spamming skills might work, but frankly you can beat open PvE with little more than a blob of gunk and a rusty metal pipe.

I never thought I would see visceral game play followed by teleport kiting, and bunkering down. Two things that scream visceral in everyone’s mind I’m sure.

Anyway back to the op, I understand what you are trying to say about all the classes feeling the same. To me It is because the classes have no roles. So everyone needs a the same things. Yes your gap closer might be a teleport/a jump/a stealth/a stun/a chill/an immobilize and sure when you do them they play different, but after awhile it all feels the same.

And since you have all your skills by like level 30 you will have plenty of time to get really bored if them.

>Ryuujin.8236

Maybe I should stay off class specifics as I do not intend to downplay the complexity of the situation you might be in. High fractals or PvP, I could list too exactly how to opperate a class but what I want to question is that wouldn’t you too want more out of skills and a higher skill cap? No matter how you spin it after a while the skills are bland in my opinion, let alone being locked to weapons.

I’m built to burst therefore I engage to summon clones that are copies of other professions abilities with the same animations, if offensively favorable I jump in root and flurry + wreck. Or I stack in the back and kite and clone and shield and run. I build support and bunker so I aoe cap points and run around not dying while doing some buff and debuff and try to be useful.

Build determines what you do, regardless of what your enemy does most of the time. Profession vs profession it really doesn’t matter what your enemy is, they either fall into, burst, bunker, cond, or support. Do whats limited in your build to do your own role and clash.

Sure there are team strategies, I just want to exaggerate a little to prove a point. Point being that skill usage just isn’t gratifying enough. So what if I poison my foes with arrows, do I care even what condition to do when? They might remove it or not I might as well stack up as much as often as possible = mindless. I have dps? spam it or fake it let the gods decide when they dodge, and wait for cooldowns to repeat. I’m in trouble? disengage and go elsewhere and await another chance.

Why can’t we have access to a bit of everything so that builds aren’t such burdens but more specializations. As a thief with 30 shadow arts and crit my bleeds don’t do jack. Why even have that key on my weapons bar. Most poisons are just out-shined by stealth and step. Skills should be impactful, rather than a convenience.

Foehn.2489:

>Ryuujin.8236

Maybe I should stay off class specifics as I do not intend to downplay the complexity of the situation you might be in. High fractals or PvP, I could list too exactly how to opperate a class but what I want to question is that wouldn’t you too want more out of skills and a higher skill cap? No matter how you spin it after a while the skills are bland in my opinion, let alone being locked to weapons.

More flexibility is always a good thing but you have to draw a line somewhere for the sake of balance and development resources. I personally feel there is already no shortage of depth, at least within this class, as it is a large number of mesmers I meet barely scratch the surface of their classes’ potential prefering to take the path of least resistance (Hanging back on a greatsword spamming clones and laser beams for raw DPS and nothing else)

That’s not to say other classes don’t need some care and attention however…

Ideas like these are costly. Unless you wish to become supreme VIP of the gem store =p

Even then with the direction of the game heading towards Living Stories and temporary content, which under ANet’s announcement is what they believe to be a strong selling proposition to keep players entertained, we might not see direct change to gameplay such as skills or traits revamp any time soon.

Personally, I do not believe the game lack general content. How many players have done and appreciated all the dungeon story + the branches, pursued fractals to challenging levels that require actual preparation and teamwork? I assume a small percentage.

The elite who have “been there done that” are finding the game to lack challenging deep content in both pvp and pve. And creating a Living Story that requires us to zone in somewhere once in a while and do a puzzle of a boss with a short story isn’t really the solution for me.

It simply doesn’t update how I play. Isn’t that what is gaming supposed to be about?