Guild Wars 2

Now with all elite specs revealed, who still thinks the Dragonhunter is, both thematically and game play wise, not the most poorly designed elite spec?

I play Engineer, Ranger, Necro, and Elementalist regularly with the Guardian getting the most play time (what most people would call a “main”) and there’s absolutely nothing I can use from DH to synergize with my ideal tanking Guardian build for HoT.

I think I speak for just about every Guardian player out there how excited I was to learn we’re getting the Longbow since we lacked a really good ranged weapon but the elite spec has just turned out to be a complete farce.

I’m even making a Thief to try out the Daredevil which looks infinitely more interesting than the Dragonhunter.

P.S.: Kudos to the designers behind the Chronomancer, Reaper, Druid, Daredevil, and Berserker. They will be truly fantastic additions to the game.

Reaper
Chronomancer
Druid
Herald
Daredevil
Berserker
Scrapper
Dragonhunter
Tempest

Love how you’re putting Tempest as last hahaha.

portedGoblin.7413:

Reaper
Chronomancer
Druid
Herald
Daredevil
Berserker
Scrapper
Dragonhunter
Tempest

I will concede that the Tempest is a very close second behind the Dragonhunter in terms of being the most underwhelming Elite Spec. I suppose our only difference is whom we care more about, the Guardian or the Elementalist.

Guardian needed a new weapon for range. The longbow fits perfectly. Everything about DH is what was needed. The traps aren’t great yes as they are not ground targeted but I’d rather use guardian abilities anyways.

People just wanted to much. The class is perfectly fine. Yes I main guardian to and have 0 complaints. The bwe3 changes with faster projectiles for auto attack was all it really needed in my opinion from the first event.

I think people just aren’t seeing the potential on Daredevil and Dragonhunter, but that’ll come out one way or the other with more play. Berserker seems like the smallest gain any class is experiencing.

For sheer power I’d rank highest to lowest~

Herald
Chronomancer
Reaper
Daredevil
Dragonhunter
Scrapper
Druid (unless healing becomes truly mandatory)
Berserker
Tempest

Doesn’t fit your playstyle =/= terrible elite spec. Not all elite specs are going to fit all roles. I imagine people whose ideal Ranger is an offensive powerhouse don’t feel all that great about Druid either, for instance.

Not to say that Dragonhunter is necessarily amazing or whatever. Just saying that not fitting into a certain playstyle shouldn’t really be a basis for calling an elite spec bad.

Electro.4173:

Doesn’t fit your playstyle =/= terrible elite spec. Not all elite specs are going to fit all roles. I imagine people whose ideal Ranger is an offensive powerhouse don’t feel all that great about Druid either, for instance.

Not to say that Dragonhunter is necessarily amazing or whatever. Just saying that not fitting into a certain playstyle shouldn’t really be a basis for calling an elite spec bad.

Of course not. You’re right, and I can see how my lament can be perceived that way, but there’s also very poor synergy between the DH abilities with the rest of the Guardian skill set.

Also, Daredevil’s getting 3 dodges, Chronomancer’s getting a Braid-like reverse, Druid’s getting a de facto Death Shroud; just about every elite spec is getting a really defining unique profession mechanic. The DH only got physical manifestations of its original 3 virtues.

I’ll be the first to admit my opinion is going to be far from objective. I’m just not as impressed by the Dragonhunter as I am with other elite specs (Tempest notwithstanding), and this has nothing to do with whether the DH plays into my ideal build or not.

Haven’t played it although I was never thrilled about Traps since they’re awful on Thief/Ranger. Regardless it’s the least visually interesting class skill and mechanics-wise compared to the others. Copypaste bow animations and wasn’t too impressed with the throwing animation.

Sylum.1806:

Electro.4173:

Doesn’t fit your playstyle =/= terrible elite spec. Not all elite specs are going to fit all roles. I imagine people whose ideal Ranger is an offensive powerhouse don’t feel all that great about Druid either, for instance.

Not to say that Dragonhunter is necessarily amazing or whatever. Just saying that not fitting into a certain playstyle shouldn’t really be a basis for calling an elite spec bad.

Of course not. You’re right, and I can see how my lament can be perceived that way, but there’s also very poor synergy between the DH abilities with the rest of the Guardian skill set.

Also, Daredevil’s getting 3 dodges, Chronomancer’s getting a Braid-like reverse, Druid’s getting a de facto Death Shroud; just about every elite spec is getting a really defining unique profession mechanic. The DH only got physical manifestations of its original 3 virtues.

I’ll be the first to admit my opinion is going to be far from objective. I’m just not as impressed by the Dragonhunter as I am with other elite specs (Tempest notwithstanding), and this has nothing to do with whether the DH plays into my ideal build or not.

I think the physical manifestations could be really awesome and build defining like other elite spec changes. The cooldowns are just too darn high for them to fill that role at this point (and for some reason they keep adding traits, even to DH itself, that promote NOT using them and keeping them passive).

They seem to be addressing that somewhat with the next BWE, cutting the cooldowns of Wings of Resolve and Spear of Justice, but I’m of the opinion that it’s still not quite enough. Then again, we haven’t played with it just yet, so we’ll see.

Sylum.1806:

Also, Daredevil’s getting 3 dodges, Chronomancer’s getting a Braid-like reverse, Druid’s getting a de facto Death Shroud; just about every elite spec is getting a really defining unique profession mechanic. The DH only got physical manifestations of its original 3 virtues.

Actually, that’s a really interesting point. Is Dragonhunter the only elite specialization that actually loses access to its original profession mechanic? Every other class got an addition to their mechanic, not a rework of it.

This makes the lack of an F4 skill with something like the much requested 25% move speed passive increase (don’t even get me started on the Druid 33% move speed trait) even more absurd.

(Though to the titular question, I do agree with others that the Tempest is worse than the Dragonhunter, if only slightly.)

What really baffles my mind is why they still haven’t fixed Spirit Weapons and Shield skills. Shouldn’t it have been the priority before even starting the work on elite specialization?

I mean, it’s no hard to imagine Spirit Guardian being more interesting that Dragonhunter. For example – summon Spirit Bow – get 1-2 additional control skills.

Isarii.2804:

Sylum.1806:

Also, Daredevil’s getting 3 dodges, Chronomancer’s getting a Braid-like reverse, Druid’s getting a de facto Death Shroud; just about every elite spec is getting a really defining unique profession mechanic. The DH only got physical manifestations of its original 3 virtues.

Actually, that’s a really interesting point. Is Dragonhunter the only elite specialization that actually loses access to its original profession mechanic? Every other class got an addition to their mechanic, not a rework of it.

This makes the lack of an F4 skill with something like the much requested 25% move speed passive increase (don’t even get me started on the Druid 33% move speed trait) even more absurd.

(Though to the titular question, I do agree with others that the Tempest is worse than the Dragonhunter, if only slightly.)

Reaper lost their death shroud in exchange for reaper shroud.

Eponet.4829:

Isarii.2804:

Sylum.1806:

Also, Daredevil’s getting 3 dodges, Chronomancer’s getting a Braid-like reverse, Druid’s getting a de facto Death Shroud; just about every elite spec is getting a really defining unique profession mechanic. The DH only got physical manifestations of its original 3 virtues.

Actually, that’s a really interesting point. Is Dragonhunter the only elite specialization that actually loses access to its original profession mechanic? Every other class got an addition to their mechanic, not a rework of it.

This makes the lack of an F4 skill with something like the much requested 25% move speed passive increase (don’t even get me started on the Druid 33% move speed trait) even more absurd.

(Though to the titular question, I do agree with others that the Tempest is worse than the Dragonhunter, if only slightly.)

Reaper lost their death shroud in exchange for reaper shroud.

Which makes me iffy about it. It looks cool and all but my Necro abuses Death Shroud and does insane range damage with it. Not sure how making it Melee will make it better till I can try it personally.

We haven’t even played all of them. They haven’t even all had a BWE or tweaks yet. There will probably be significant adjustments to all of them in the first balance patch post xpac.

How can you even answer this question?

Eponet.4829:

Isarii.2804:

Sylum.1806:

Also, Daredevil’s getting 3 dodges, Chronomancer’s getting a Braid-like reverse, Druid’s getting a de facto Death Shroud; just about every elite spec is getting a really defining unique profession mechanic. The DH only got physical manifestations of its original 3 virtues.

Actually, that’s a really interesting point. Is Dragonhunter the only elite specialization that actually loses access to its original profession mechanic? Every other class got an addition to their mechanic, not a rework of it.

This makes the lack of an F4 skill with something like the much requested 25% move speed passive increase (don’t even get me started on the Druid 33% move speed trait) even more absurd.

(Though to the titular question, I do agree with others that the Tempest is worse than the Dragonhunter, if only slightly.)

Reaper lost their death shroud in exchange for reaper shroud.

Ah, right! Well, at least we’re not the only ones.

Tempest is by far the worse, it doesn’t even have anything to do with the name (no storms at all) and does almost no damage.

The main reason why Dragonhunter sucks is because
1. Minor traits
2. Traps

Comparison of Minor traits:
Herald
Improved Endurance Regeneration (while using class mechanic)
Improved Boon Duration (global bonus that works at all times)
Work with every Build, synergy with Runes that provide boons, stacks with Runes that provide Boon Duration.

Chronomancer
Improved recharge(Alacrity) (while using class mechanic)
Improved Movement Speed (global bonus that works at all times)
Reduced Movement-impairing conditions
Work with every build, stacks with Runes that reduce Condition Duration on you.

Reaper
Extra Chill on Fear (similar to an extra sigil)
Improved Chill Duration (equivalent to an extra sigil)
Reduced damage from Chilled foes
Work with every build, synergy with Sigils/Runes that cause Fear, stacks with Sigils/Runes that increase Chill Duration.

Berserker
Instant Adrenaline gain once (Not that great of a trait)
Improved Attack Speed (while using class mechanic)
Work with every build.

Tempest
Swiftness on Overload (while using class mechanic)
Protection on Overload (while using class mechanic)
Work with every build. Same action provides both boons.

Daredevil
Health gain on successful Dodge (while using class mechanic)
Endurance gain on Steal (while using class mechanic)
Work with every build. Synergy with Runes that provide Boons on Dodge.

Scrapper
Boon on Revive/Finish (while using class mechanic)
Improved Stun Duration on foes (equivalent to an extra sigil)
Reduced Stun Duration on you (equivalent to part of a Rune’s effect)
Work with every build. Stacks with said Sigil and Rune.

Druid
Self-healing when Healing an ally (while using class mechanic)
Stacking improved outgoing heal (equivalent to an extra sigil)
Work with every build. Stacks with sigils that improves Healing Power or outgoing healing and sigils that heal you and/or allies.

Dragonhunter
Defender’s Dogma
Blocking an attack causes justice to reach its maximum charge.
1. Does NOT work anymore the moment you press F1.
2. Has no effect if you were already at full stacks of Justice. (20% of the time)
3. Inflicts only 1 stack of Burning for only 1 second to only 1 foe on your next attack.

Pure of Sight
Deal (10%) bonus damage to enemies beyond the range threshold (360u).
1. Among the damaging skills, does NOT work with over 60% of them because said skills can never reach beyond that range threshold in the first place.
2. Only works on at most 1 skill on each of our Melee weapons, said skill having 15-30s cooldown on said weapons, and whose damage value is only worth 1 auto-attack. Equivalent to a trait saying “improve your 15th/30th auto-attack’s damage by 10%”, nobody in their right mind would pick such a trait. Therefore, it’s a dead trait on a melee weapon.
3. You still have to fulfill the range threshold requirement on the skills it even works with. (Which means it does not always work on skills it even affects)
There are more builds where this does NOT work than builds where this works.

No other profession is being forced into using their new Elite spec weapon other than Guardian(because of this trait).

As you can see(if you are Pure of Sight), Dragonhunter’s Minor traits are a bad joke.
I wont type the presentation on Traps, i’ll let someone else explain why they are bad.

I think Guardian traps deserve to be ranged. It is very anti synergy with the longbow.

ANet has some more balancing to do, but as of right now, I find it very it likely that Dragonhunter is worse off than the Tempest.

Summary:

Longbow is ok. (finally some good range weapon for guardians)
——-

everything else is just nerf to our class.
Traits, cast time virtues, long cd traps…

Srry but Karl blew it really hard. There is still time to make something better. 1 month till expansion. But I don’t have high hopes for it.

DH is disappointment.

The worst part is, even if the dev gives Dragonhunter everything we’ve been asking for in the Dragonhunter feedback thread, that includes:
1. Ground-targeted Traps
2. 25% increased movement speed trait
3. Traps each drop a different Symbol when activated
4. Traps drop a Field or Trap is a Finisher when activated
5. Instant cast Dragonhunter Virtues

It is still not on par with other professions’ Elite specs such as Druid.

Guardians definitely get the shaft.

1. Longbow is weak and half the attacks root you.
2. Traps aren’t ranged which contradicts the point of the longbow.
3. Traps have too long of a cooldown and activation time to be useful.
4. Breaks core virtues and related traits
5. No 25% movement speed trait or signet, so still slowest class in existence.

dom.2748:

Guardians definitely get the shaft.

1. Longbow is weak and half the attacks root you.
2. Traps aren’t ranged which contradicts the point of the longbow.
3. Traps have too long of a cooldown and activation time to be useful.
4. Breaks core virtues and related traits
5. No 25% movement speed trait or signet, so still slowest class in existence.

^^ but but we got awesome skill: “Retreat”

It’s a neck and neck race to the bottom between DH and tempest since they both ‘give’ the same thing to their parent classes (virtually any build you can make with DH/tempest can be done better without them), but I’m going to give DH the wooden spoon since ele is already better than guard.

I’m glad to see that players are now realizing how bad this elite really is…this is what happens when ppl perpetuate the notion, “Guardians are in a good spot.”

Yes it’s definitely the weakest. It is extraordinarily clunky also. On Longbow your character does not turn to shoot your target if your target is anywhere beyond a 90° cone in your vision.

The #1 skill is similar to pistol on Thief with Ricochet however the enemies must be behind other enemies to split. The #2 skill immobilizes you with a couple second charge up for 4k crit with zerker gear. #3 doesn’t always work properly. #4 is a very slow moving projectile and no longer causes burning with a small light field left behind. #5 does 200-300 damage 3-4 times over a 3 secondish period and then binds enemies. Traps have very subpar damage.

As it is right now, there is no reason at all to use the Elite Spec for Guardian. Scepter/Focus is way better in terms of defense and damage. And sacrificing a trait line for DH is basically taking away 1/3rd of your character.

circuitnerd.5863:

Yes it’s definitely the weakest. It is extraordinarily clunky also. On Longbow your character does not turn to shoot your target if your target is anywhere beyond a 90° cone in your vision.

They were actually experimenting with some new targeting code during the BWE. This has since been removed so it should now behave like any other ranged class. Just an FYI. Doesn’t change your other points any.

I think the point that most people are missing is this: While the other elite specs mostly seem designed to fit in with current builds and either compliment or amplify them in some way, Dragon Hunter or Druid seem to be elite specs that have to be built around completely from start to finish. It is true that a full heal elite spec or a full ranged damage elite spec don’t really amplify anything those classes were already able to do, I think you could get a lot of use out of them by simply reversing the mindset about them. Just my two cents, though.

Imo people see Tempest and DH as bad spec only because the core classes are so kitten good.
I’m not saying they cannot be improve, but they are not as bad as it is suggested in several threads.

Nope, it’s daredevil. It does nothing to address thief’s weaknesses while doing nothing to address the reveal problem. It has an extra dodge…but someone said new content has lots of stuff that can’t be dodged.

Here’s why Tempest is the last: It adds nothing new.

Now you could argue that the Dragon Hunter’s longbow is terrible, bad or even awful. That the skills are bad, the designs are bad, or otherwise and you could maybe not be wrong (I leave it more to the Guardians to pick that one apart). But a bow is a different kind of playstyle for the class. It’s a fast projectile based ranged weapon instead of a more slow one of Scepter.

Tempest on the other hand gets literally nothing new. The main idea is basically Auramancer. But in order to pull it off the Aura traits are still spread out between too many lines (Fire, Earth, Water, Air). It’s built to be a melee character but has no real toughness/health increases forcing you into full defensive lines (Water/Arcane or Water/Earth) with Tempest. In order to get Aura generation in any notable amount you’re forced to give up more defenses with Cantrips. So in almost every way it’s just an inferior version of the same D/D build we already got. No new role. No new way to play the class.

LunacyPolish.4602:

We haven’t even played all of them. They haven’t even all had a BWE or tweaks yet. There will probably be significant adjustments to all of them in the first balance patch post xpac.

How can you even answer this question?

Yes, we can. Because the question concerns the elite specs as they are, NOW. If we need to consider future adjustments before we can comment and compare, then we can comment and compare on nothing, because the environment and features of an MMO are constantly changing.

And there are some fundamental problems with the Dragonhunter (and the Tempest too), that some of our learned friends on this thread have pointed out, that will need more than just adjustments to address.

Turtle Dragon.9241:

The main reason why Dragonhunter sucks is because…

Defender’s Dogma
Blocking an attack causes justice to reach its maximum charge.
1. Does NOT work anymore the moment you press F1.
2. Has no effect if you were already at full stacks of Justice. (20% of the time)
3. Inflicts only 1 stack of Burning for only 1 second to only 1 foe on your next attack.

Pure of Sight
Deal (10%) bonus damage to enemies beyond the range threshold (360u).
1. Among the damaging skills, does NOT work with over 60% of them because said skills can never reach beyond that range threshold in the first place.
2. Only works on at most 1 skill on each of our Melee weapons, said skill having 15-30s cooldown on said weapons, and whose damage value is only worth 1 auto-attack. Equivalent to a trait saying “improve your 15th/30th auto-attack’s damage by 10%”, nobody in their right mind would pick such a trait. Therefore, it’s a dead trait on a melee weapon.
3. You still have to fulfill the range threshold requirement on the skills it even works with. (Which means it does not always work on skills it even affects)
There are more builds where this does NOT work than builds where this works.

No other profession is being forced into using their new Elite spec weapon other than Guardian(because of this trait).

As you can see(if you are Pure of Sight), Dragonhunter’s Minor traits are a bad joke.
I wont type the presentation on Traps, i’ll let someone else explain why they are bad.

This so perfectly encapsulates my frustration with the DH elite spec.

DH is not a great spec, but it is not the worst. Although, it was designed by the same guy who MADE the worst spec.

Tempest is the only spec that goes COMPLETELY against the core mechanic of the base class.

It is also half designed off a build elementalists ALREADY HAD, but alas they had to remove fire’s embrace in order to make the tempest dung pile look even remotely appealing.

So while DH may not be great, it might not even be good, at least its still better than tempest. God knows Karl probably tried his hardest to make it suck, but it still comes out second best to tempest.

We’ll probably also see this post shortly followed by Jsk or Leo defending tempest to its very core (ITS A HEALING SPEC! NO ITS A SUPPORT SPEC! No matter what those two clowns state, it still doesn’t stand on its own as a melee support spec as stated by the devs…although it will probably play dead quite well though).

And finally, with the new nerfs to ele fire condi (instead of adjusting fire condi across the board?…Wtf?) and the icebow nerfs (this one i’ll admit should have happened along time ago, but without fixing conjures in general they need to be removed, this joke just isn’t funny anymore). I’m pretty sure the devs should just leave the eles alone now, and let them die with a little dignity, since the devs apparently have none (ie: see the mic drop video and twitter post of the idiot who should be fired for taking a dump on Anet’s professional image).

To make a direct statement on the video and the twitter post – that was really dirty. You should be fired because i’m pretty sure you don’t have the decency to even feel bad for mocking roughly an 1/8th of your player base who pre-paid for HoT and main an ele. Frankly, I haven’t pre-purchased, and the video and twitter post completely sicken me.

I wish i could just equip longbow while using my actual build

Yeah, I agree with the ones who say that just because it doesn’t fit your playstyle…

Thing is, I can only judge one element about elite specs somewhat fairly: Does the spec try to properly change the class mechanic to change the “feel” of the class?

This was a stated goal for them, and for many it works that way, something is added or changed about the class mechanic which will change how players interact with it.

In this regard, working elite specs:

• Reaper
• Chronomancer
• Druid
• Scrapper
• Dragon Hunter

“Boring” elite specs:

• Tempest (it’s just Elementalist v1.1)
• Berserker (same thing really, Warrior v1.1)
• Daredevil (Thief with a third dodge bar, not even modifying the mechanics)

But again, that doesn’t mean the specs are bad at all. It just means that as far as the goal of shaking up class gameplay due to class mechanics goes, these three just don’t do that.

Snow White.1842:

DH is not a great spec, but it is not the worst. Although, it was designed by the same guy who MADE the worst spec.

Tempest is the only spec that goes COMPLETELY against the core mechanic of the base class.

It is also half designed off a build elementalists ALREADY HAD, but alas they had to remove fire’s embrace in order to make the tempest dung pile look even remotely appealing.

So while DH may not be great, it might not even be good, at least its still better than tempest. God knows Karl probably tried his hardest to make it suck, but it still comes out second best to tempest.

We’ll probably also see this post shortly followed by Jsk or Leo defending tempest to its very core (ITS A HEALING SPEC! NO ITS A SUPPORT SPEC! No matter what those two clowns state, it still doesn’t stand on its own as a melee support spec as stated by the devs…although it will probably play dead quite well though).

And finally, with the new nerfs to ele fire condi (instead of adjusting fire condi across the board?…Wtf?) and the icebow nerfs (this one i’ll admit should have happened along time ago, but without fixing conjures in general they need to be removed, this joke just isn’t funny anymore). I’m pretty sure the devs should just leave the eles alone now, and let them die with a little dignity, since the devs apparently have none (ie: see the mic drop video and twitter post of the idiot who should be fired for taking a dump on Anet’s professional image).

To make a direct statement on the video and the twitter post – that was really dirty. You should be fired because i’m pretty sure you don’t have the decency to even feel bad for mocking roughly an 1/8th of your player base who pre-paid for HoT and main an ele. Frankly, I haven’t pre-purchased, and the video and twitter post completely sicken me.

Ele will never die, it’s best class for 2 years now.

Dare Devil’s third dodge is basically something they removed, and tried to reintroduce to thieves. Before the June patch, a third dodge bar is called Feline’s Grace. Now, they are taking a single trait and making it a profession mechanic.

So basically DareDevil gets “improved” (clunky) dodges (which they would hopefully fix) and a staff, which will compete with the Sword/Dagger build for evasive non-stealthy combat, (trading a gap-closer/condi-removal, boon stripping, evades and access to stealth for weakness and a slow leap), and pretty “meh” utility skills (as if signet of agility, Shadow’s refuge/Blinding powder, Shadowstep can be replaced by throwing knives. Probably only the block will see regular use.)

At least other classes have new things to play with. We got a recycled trait as a mechanic.

I don’t like Dragonhunter, but, for me, it’s still far better than Tempest. The reason is one: It has an awesome concept (and I rly hate tempest’s concept). A magic archer with magic arrows and magic traps. I like how this sounds. However, the way it is implemented is really poor. Longbow looks like ranger’s one, but with arrows painted to blue. They should at least change aa animation and arrow sounds to give us that feeling of magic archer. Traps needs some improvement (I hope we’ll see some with the incoming balance patch). And new virtues are just strange. Some other things need improvement too (traits, lb arrow speed)

Daredevil is the worst, they simply removed 1 previously available MINOR trait, recycled it and called it a day. But DD’s real mechanic is locked in their GM trait, so basically they are trapped with 2/3 of a trait line.
And not to even mention the recycled and clunky animations.

EazyPanda.6419:

Dare Devil’s third dodge is basically something they removed, and tried to reintroduce to thieves. Before the June patch, a third dodge bar is called Feline’s Grace. Now, they are taking a single trait and making it a profession mechanic.

At least other classes have new things to play with. We got a recycled trait as a mechanic.

Yes its quite obvious at this point that Acrobatics traits got butchered so that Dare Devil traits would be appealing in comparison, and that’s just sad.

Also, don’t forget the daredevil received zero new animations, and all the staff animation are recycled from other weapons like hammer, making the staff look clunky, slow, and awkward. We were all expecting a martial artist, and instead we got Star Wars Kid. kitten they couldn’t even give us the Monkey King idle and run animations! No, our daredevil holds the staff like a big hammer.

Oh, and the DareDevil got no grandmaster traits, because they put the dodges there instead of real traits (when they could have put the dodge switching on the F keys or give us a button like the revenant legend switch)

As a whole the spec is just awful, and it plays awful, too. The dodges are clunky and awkward, two of them remove you from stealth which is just frustrating, and the staff is really weak to boot. You’re better off taking the dare devil traits but NOT using staff.

The Dragon Hunter might still be the worst Elite spec in terms of gameplay, but Dare Devil was definitely the laziest effort.