Guild Wars 2

This is simple.

Critical Damage build
Somebody who wants to do burst damage has to invest in Power, Precision and Ferocity, thereby becoming a glass cannon because they have no investment in Toughness or Vitality whatsoever. It’s a big risk with a big reward type of build. In addition, unless your Precision is through the roof, you always run the risk of bad luck and not landing critical hits(this is still probability, so it still exists even if small).

Condition Damage build
Somebody who wants to do condition damage has to invest in Condition Damage only, leaving the other stats to be anything, such as Toughness and Vitality, or even Power to add extra damage, or Precision to proc even more condition-on-crit sigils.
So you get characters who can do damage equivalent to burst damage builds via conditions, while being tanky(Toughness+Vitality) at the same time. Moreover, Condition Damage can completely bypass the foe’s Toughness and Protection. Conditions also have a 100% chance of applying through regular skills(not through %chance sigils) regardless, and there is no such thing as “has a %chance to poison the target” unlike critical hits.
The only risk(counter) of running a condition build is the almost non-existent boon Resistance, or having your conditions removed. However, conditions apply way too fast and way too often to be fully removed/countered.

Possible Solutions
1) Resistance could be made much more common. For example, all condition-removing skills now applying Resistance for 1 second.
2) A new boon could be introduced, and it would work similar to Stability, stacking in intensity. Each stack of this new boon would negate the application of a damaging condition(Burning, Bleeding, Poison, Torment, Confusion). Resistance would not be redundant because it only negates(does not remove)conditions, and also negates Crippled, Chill, Immobilized etc, which the new boon would not.
3) Toughness could be made to mitigate condition damage. Protection could be made to reduce the damage you take from Conditions by 33% as well. Resistance would still exist and negate condition damage and effects completely(such as Crippled).
4) Condition-applying skills could be made to only have a base of X% chance of applying a condition, and that chance of applying said condition goes up with Precision. That forces Condition-builds to invest in Precision.
5) Condition-removal skills and Healing skills could be buffed to remove more conditions and have their cooldowns reduced. Consider that before the patch, Poison would only do P amount of damage per second, even if you had 30 seconds worth of Poison applied, so condition-removal were balanced around that. Now that Poison can easily do 5P amount of damage per second, we need to cleanse and heal much more often. Poison has a special mention here because it reduces Healing by 33%,

Power/prec/ferocity builds — high direct damage, very little you have to worry about other than your skill rotations and mashing 1.

Condition builds — high damage over time, have to worry about stacking conditions and keeping them stacked.

Honestly why should power builds get to have max damage while also being the easiest to play? Condition builds should ideally be able to do more damage, but over time, and require a little bit more attention than just mashing 1.

EDIT: Sure conditions ignore armor and boons, but most players can also instantly remove all conditions, completely negating all of that potential damage, wasting their rotation. Can’t do that against a power player since it is direct damage. All you can do is heal/block/absorb.

Condition damage shouldnt be able to compete with power when it comes to damage output.

Wrong.

Turtle Dragon.9241:

This is simple.

Critical Damage build
Somebody who wants to do burst damage has to invest in Power, Precision and Ferocity /snip

Condition Damage build
Somebody who wants to do condition damage has to invest in Condition Damage only, /snip

SIMPLE? Ehh NO?

DPS builds need Power as main stat, with precison for criticals ( which trigger a % of the time and add+50%) ferocity can add a further 50-80% to the dmg of criticals.

SO
minor power:
70% + ( 4% * + 50%) = 72% avg
max power:
100% + ( 4% * + 50% ) = 102% avg
minor power w fury:
70% + ( 24% * + 50% ) = 82% avg
max power w fury:
100% + ( 24% * + 50% ) = 112% avg
minor power w precision:
70%+ ( 50% * + 50% ) =95% avg
max power w precision:
100%+ ( 50% * + 50% ) =125% avg
minor power w precision and fury:
70%+ ( 70% * + 50%) =105% avg
max power w precision and fury:
100%+ ( 70% * + 50%) =135% avg
minor power w maxed critical chance
70%+ ( 100% * + 50%) =120%
max power w maxed critical chance
100%+ ( 100% * + 50%) =150%
minor power w precision and ferocity
70% + ( 50% * + 110%) =125% avg
max power w precision and ferocity
100% + (50% * + 110%) =155% avg
minor power w precision, fury and ferocity
70% + (70% * + 120%) =154% avg
max power w precision, fury and ferocity
100% + (70% * + 120%) =184% avg
Minor power w maxed critical chance and ferocity
100% + (100% * + 120%) = 190% avg
max power w maxed critical chance and ferocity
100% + (100% * + 120%) = 220% avg
minor power under weakness (ignore crits, fumble 50)
(50% * 70%) + (50% * 35%) =52.5%
max power under weakness (ignore crits, fumble 50)
(50% * 100%) + (50% * 50%) =75%
minor power w maxed critical chance and ferocity (ignore crits, fumble 50)
(50%* 70%) + (50%* 35%) + (ignored) =52.5%
max power w maxed critical chance and ferocity (ignore crits, fumble 50)
(50%* 100%) + (50%* 50%) + (ignored) =75%

- not counting might and vulnerability
- not counting +x% damage modifiers (sigils/runes/traits/utility)
- Reduced by armor.
- Blindness will make you miss,
- Enemy aegis will make you miss,

STAT need :
minor power: Sentinel, CARRION, Clerics
max power: Soldiers
minor power/precision: Knights,Cavalier, RAMPAGER, SINISTER
max power/precision: Zealot
minor power /precision /ferocity: Assassin
max power /precision /ferocity: Berzerk
(carrion, rampager and sinister have condition damage as well )

DOT builds need Condition Damage as main stat, Condition Duration as a modifier and -TIME- to make the damage reach it’s peak, To gain time you’ll need mitigation (blindness/aegis/invulnerability/stealth/dazes/stuns/fears/taunts, recflects, toughness or vitality)

minor condition dmg:
70%
max condition dmg:
100%
minor condition dmg w precision
70% no change
max condition dmg w precision:
100% no change.
minor condition dmg with basic food/utility
70% * 1,5 =105% BUT over 1,5 times the TIME
max condition dmg with basic food/utility
100% * 1,5 = 150% BUT over 1,5 times the TIME
minor conditions with maxed condition duration
70% * (1+1) (capped) = 140%. over double TIME.
max conditions with maxed condition duration
100% * (1+1) (capped) = 200%. over double TIME.
minor conditions under resilience = 0%
max conditions under resilience = 0%

not counting might and vulnerability
NOT reduced by armor.
Blindness will make you miss,
Enemy aegis will make you miss,
To gain max duration you’ll invest heavily in traits/ runes/ sigils, food and utility.
- Cleaning will reset your stacks.- making your DOT output 0
- Resilience will reduce your output to 0 DOT for the duration

STAT need:
minor condition dmg: RAMPAGER, Settler, Shaman, Apothecary
major condition dmg : Dire / Rabid / CARRION / SINISTER
(carrion, rampager and sinister have power as well )

TIME is the issue you forget. time you might say well I need time as well to DPS ppl down as well but the:

Power curve is extremely high peak and then sustained DPS whcihs is nearly uninteruptable.

Condition curve which is a slow start with an horrendous peak, whcih can be reset and copletely removed.

The 3 stat combinations in CAPS combine these curves….

They do not need a gradual buildup but compensate the holes in the condi curve with a power spike. Even though this originates from minor power and is less powerfull compared to BURST DPS it means they can do adequate damage in the first spike on target. this combined with CC… well you figure.

SINISTER is the most interesting stat atm. It combines the best from 2 worlds. decent DPS and extreme DOT, with criticals, allowing for optimal use of MIGHT and VULNERABILITY to further boost the overall damage. Damage is partially armor ignoring.

Zerk Meta is dying….
Sinister will take it place except vs condition resisting foes or objects.

Strong? Yes. Broken? No. What the conditions patch is going to accomplish are threefold:

1. Increase the viability of condition builds in PvE other large group settings
2. Make YOLO builds more difficult to pull off (increase risk/reward)
3. Incentivize groups to run condi cleanse. Individuals generally won’t have to, but someone in the group needs to.

I run a condi engineer (dire/rabid for WvWvW and Silverwastes) and a power Ranger (zerker in wvwvw, marauder in pvp) post build, and, while they seem to be equally viable, I get faster kills with my Ranger. That is with me being able to get consistently concurring ticks of 3k+ bleed damage and 2k+ burn damage on my Engineer—my ranger just dies faster if things go wrong.

This is because, even now, condition builds need time to ramp up their damage and add stacks. This time can be used to counter the condi giver with:

• burst damage
• condition cleanse
• stuns/disables
• disengage, cleanse, reengage (thieves just need to trait into Shadow Arts for this)

The issue now is that damaging conditions can’t be ignored like they used to because that stack of 10 bleeds can pretty quickly become 30.

As for Thieves being squishy, well, most professions are only as squishy as you build them :-).

Forsaken.7015:

Condition damage shouldnt be able to compete with power when it comes to damage output. It’s ridiculous to think that it should be equal to power

Why shouldn’t condition damage be able to compete with power? Why is it ridiculous to think that?

Forsaken.7015:

if that were the case then no one thats number crunching would run power.

No one would run power? You mean like how in the zerker meta no one ran condis?

Has anyone QQing about conditions stopped to think that Condi works with Dire because you need to be able to survive in order to ramp up your damage? Having a ton of condition damage does nothing when you get burst down in the time it takes you to apply a few stacks.

Forsaken.7015:

Condition damage shouldnt be able to compete with power when it comes to damage output. It’s ridiculous to think that it should be equal to power if that were the case then no one thats number crunching would run power.

After 2+ years of ZERKER or GTFO… Condition damage finally gets some love and you say it shouldn’t be competitive?! Seriously?

If it’s truely “ridiculous” to think condi should be equal or on par with power due to number crunching. Whats the point of condition, notice the last 2 years of zerker meta, look what number crunching did to condition builds during that time.

Miku.6297:

Forsaken.7015:

Condition damage shouldnt be able to compete with power when it comes to damage output. It’s ridiculous to think that it should be equal to power if that were the case then no one thats number crunching would run power.

After 2+ years of ZERKER or GTFO… Condition damage finally gets some love and you say it shouldn’t be competitive?! Seriously?

If it’s truely “ridiculous” to think condi should be equal or on par with power due to number crunching. Whats the point of condition, notice the last 2 years of zerker meta, look what number crunching did to condition builds during that time.

condition is meant to be sustained damage not Burst
condition only scales in damage with one stat one could argue and say 2 if you bring duration to the equation
condition ignores all forms of defense Protection,Invulnerability,Armor,aegis if condition landed before it got applied

and yes condition needed some love but currently its its a bit too much love conditions shouldnt do 10 000 damage per second

If conditions are supposed to be on par with direct damage then make condition damage a primary stat. Condition damage has always been “secondary”, an ancillary stat to boost damage, anyone promoting pure condition builds should look at the game they’re playing. It’s like trying to make an unkillable tank or healer in a game with no trinity.

Unlike direct damage, Condition Damage can be cleansed and transferred. Also, the Resistance boon could become more available in the future reducing the effectiveness of Conditions.

While we are discussing this, I think that no build should always be the top dps regardless of content.
Assassin’s and Zerker’s should come close in terms of DPS, but I don’t see why Rampager or Sinister shouldn’t be there competing in the same range of viability.

I think Dire is really effective 1v1, but even there, if you can cleanse conditions, a Dire build deals almost no direct damage.

Arkblue.6129:

Unlike direct damage, Condition Damage can be cleansed and transferred. Also, the Resistance boon could become more available in the future reducing the effectiveness of Conditions.

While we are discussing this, I think that no build should always be the top dps regardless of content.
Assassin’s and Zerker’s should come close in terms of DPS, but I don’t see why Rampager or Sinister shouldn’t be there competing in the same range of viability.

I think Dire is really effective 1v1, but even there, if you can cleanse conditions, a Dire build deals almost no direct damage.

well this isnt a 1 v 1 game so if you go up against a team of nothing but dire pure condi builds with no condi builds on your team without serk you ll have a bad time

in just 2 seconds i apply 12 stacks of burning and thats not mentioning the extra 2 stacks i can add with trait every couple seconds thats easily 6k damage per second i also have bleeding on the side enough to deal 2500-2900 per second need i to say how high the numbers climb up with confusion torment and poison

you may cleane them bbut not all professions have reliable cleanses and the icing of the cake is all of this skills have cooldowns as low as 4 seconds with the highest being 12 seconds while 1 single cleanse will have a minimum of 15-20 seconds

Rezzet.3614:

condition is meant to be sustained damage not Burst
condition only scales in damage with one stat one could argue and say 2 if you bring duration to the equation
condition ignores all forms of defense Protection,Invulnerability,Armor,aegis if condition landed before it got applied

and yes condition needed some love but currently its its a bit too much love conditions shouldnt do 10 000 damage per second

I agree 100% condition is meant to be sustained not burst. The post I quoted said “Condition damage shouldnt be able to compete with power when it comes to damage output. It’s ridiculous to think that it should be equal to power” This quote isn’t claiming burst or sustain it’s stating damage output (flat total either type).

you forgot to mention condition damage can be dodged just like power… the aegis thing… Of course it works if it lands before aegis is applied, power works that way too. Then theres the biggest factor conditions can be removed befor dealing most of their damage.

The arguement that conditions only require one stat to scale is true well kinda, (many classes have apply condition on crit builds). Also keep in mind the number of attacks that apply conditions vs the number of attacks that apply power damage, also the number of attacks that do NOT apply conditions vs the number of attacks that do NOT apply power damage.

Yes I agree conditions shouldn’t be able to out burst crit/power builds, how ever I do not agree that they should be weaker in all aspects of damage all the time.

Arkblue.6129:

Unlike direct damage, Condition Damage can be cleansed and transferred. Also, the Resistance boon could become more available in the future reducing the effectiveness of Conditions.

While we are discussing this, I think that no build should always be the top dps regardless of content.
Assassin’s and Zerker’s should come close in terms of DPS, but I don’t see why Rampager or Sinister shouldn’t be there competing in the same range of viability.

I think Dire is really effective 1v1, but even there, if you can cleanse conditions, a Dire build deals almost no direct damage.

Condi cleanse isnt a magical solution.

Many cleans cure a random condition
Many cleanses cure only a few conditions at a time
Many cleanses require you to take specific specialization
Many condi cleanses use up a utility slot.

Right now condi ramps up to fast and can be re applied to easily for condi cleanse to be the answer for many jobs.

Condi was already extremely good in pvp and wvw. It definately didnt need multiple buffs.

Kamikazi.5380:

TheBlackLeech.9360:

Forsaken.7015:

condi builds require condi damage as a offensive stat to put out damage with dire gear. Thats one offensive stat and your thinking that they should equal the same dps output as a power build that has 3 offensive stats and no defensive stats?

Dire gear is to Sinister as Soldiers is to Berserker.

come on man use your head.

Lmao no.

Only condi builds that need precision is Mesmer and Engineer. Necro, Warrior, and Thief go Dire and if you ever fought one of these three classes you’ll know how broken Dire is. These guys can 1vx easily. All you need for Condition Damage builds is Condition Damage. Power needs power precision and ferocity to be effective. Someone in full Dires can annihilate you as fast if not faster that a zerker can. Condition Damage needs a new stat to spread out it’s damage, like Power builds need ferocity.

Sorry the only class that “needs” percision in their condi build is elementalist….because that’s how their traits work. Crits proc burn = sinister gear makes ele OP.

Mesmers do not need such a stat or power. They just grab a staff and auto attack a few time and get 1k ticks of multiple condition without burn a cooldown.

data.4093:

If conditions are supposed to be on par with direct damage then make condition damage a primary stat. Condition damage has always been “secondary”, an ancillary stat to boost damage, anyone promoting pure condition builds should look at the game they’re playing. It’s like trying to make an unkillable tank or healer in a game with no trinity.

Maybe you are unaware of Sinister stats, which is condition damage main stay with power and precision. Properly balanced Sinister should have higher potential total damage (the condition damage plus direct damage) than Berserker since you have to build up and maintain the condition stacks. High health pools counter condition damage in the same way high armor counters direct damage which some people in this thread seem to be ignoring.

Forsaken.7015:

Condition damage shouldnt be able to compete with power when it comes to damage output.

True. Direct-damage deals its damage instantly, hence it needs to be lower.

(This is btw how DD vs DoT is balanced in general, across all games – DoTs do higher overall damage in return for needing time to deal this damage)

Einlanzer.1627:

Ideally, a pure power build should do minimal condition damage and maximum direct damage, while pure condi build should do respectable condi damage + respectable direct damage. They seem to be moving into more of a purist approach with conditions, but the game isn’t really balanced around that.

This is indeed how GW2 seems to mostly be set up, which is… let’s say “unconventional” as far as RPGs go. But it can work, only as you say they’re moving further away from instead of towards it.

phys.7689:

Arkblue.6129:

Unlike direct damage, Condition Damage can be cleansed and transferred. Also, the Resistance boon could become more available in the future reducing the effectiveness of Conditions.

While we are discussing this, I think that no build should always be the top dps regardless of content.
Assassin’s and Zerker’s should come close in terms of DPS, but I don’t see why Rampager or Sinister shouldn’t be there competing in the same range of viability.

I think Dire is really effective 1v1, but even there, if you can cleanse conditions, a Dire build deals almost no direct damage.

Condi cleanse isnt a magical solution.

Many cleans cure a random condition
Many cleanses cure only a few conditions at a time
Many cleanses require you to take specific specialization
Many condi cleanses use up a utility slot.

Right now condi ramps up to fast and can be re applied to easily for condi cleanse to be the answer for many jobs.

Condi was already extremely good in pvp and wvw. It definately didnt need multiple buffs.

Even most condition builds require multiple trait lines to work efficiently, otherwise you don’t have enough sources of Conditions to keep the Condition Damage up.

Gear stat wise, it is usually easier to build condi. Trait-wise, we have to give up a lot of QoL traits in order to keep condition stacks up. I have zero cleanse on my engineer now.

Arkblue.6129:

phys.7689:

Arkblue.6129:

Unlike direct damage, Condition Damage can be cleansed and transferred. Also, the Resistance boon could become more available in the future reducing the effectiveness of Conditions.

While we are discussing this, I think that no build should always be the top dps regardless of content.
Assassin’s and Zerker’s should come close in terms of DPS, but I don’t see why Rampager or Sinister shouldn’t be there competing in the same range of viability.

I think Dire is really effective 1v1, but even there, if you can cleanse conditions, a Dire build deals almost no direct damage.

Condi cleanse isnt a magical solution.

Many cleans cure a random condition
Many cleanses cure only a few conditions at a time
Many cleanses require you to take specific specialization
Many condi cleanses use up a utility slot.

Right now condi ramps up to fast and can be re applied to easily for condi cleanse to be the answer for many jobs.

Condi was already extremely good in pvp and wvw. It definately didnt need multiple buffs.

Even most condition builds require multiple trait lines to work efficiently, otherwise you don’t have enough sources of Conditions to keep the Condition Damage up.

Almost every dps build requires multi traits, thats not unique to condi builds.

Dramen Maidria.1034:

data.4093:

If conditions are supposed to be on par with direct damage then make condition damage a primary stat. Condition damage has always been “secondary”, an ancillary stat to boost damage, anyone promoting pure condition builds should look at the game they’re playing. It’s like trying to make an unkillable tank or healer in a game with no trinity.

Maybe you are unaware of Sinister stats, which is condition damage main stay with power and precision. Properly balanced Sinister should have higher potential total damage (the condition damage plus direct damage) than Berserker since you have to build up and maintain the condition stacks. High health pools counter condition damage in the same way high armor counters direct damage which some people in this thread seem to be ignoring.

Most of the condi gear didn’t exist in the beginning. It was added later because someone got a kitten for conditions. There were some trinkets here or there but the stat combos weren’t that accessible: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/archive/crafting/Dire-armor-Insignia

The game was clearly set up for conditions to remain secondary- it is a secondary stat and boons/conditions were built only around direct damage until resistance. That was a few days ago.

phys.7689:

Arkblue.6129:

phys.7689:

Arkblue.6129:

Unlike direct damage, Condition Damage can be cleansed and transferred. Also, the Resistance boon could become more available in the future reducing the effectiveness of Conditions.

While we are discussing this, I think that no build should always be the top dps regardless of content.
Assassin’s and Zerker’s should come close in terms of DPS, but I don’t see why Rampager or Sinister shouldn’t be there competing in the same range of viability.

I think Dire is really effective 1v1, but even there, if you can cleanse conditions, a Dire build deals almost no direct damage.

Condi cleanse isnt a magical solution.

Many cleans cure a random condition
Many cleanses cure only a few conditions at a time
Many cleanses require you to take specific specialization
Many condi cleanses use up a utility slot.

Right now condi ramps up to fast and can be re applied to easily for condi cleanse to be the answer for many jobs.

Condi was already extremely good in pvp and wvw. It definately didnt need multiple buffs.

Even most condition builds require multiple trait lines to work efficiently, otherwise you don’t have enough sources of Conditions to keep the Condition Damage up.

Almost every dps build requires multi traits, thats not unique to condi builds.

Exactly, so “traiting for condition removal” is not a good argument since, you know, condition damage are meant to work well if you don’t have condi removal.

Bear in mind, CD is too strong now, but some of those arguments are moot points.

Problem is in requirements:

Direct damage build needs 3 dmg stats to max dmg – ie Zerker equip – thus forcing you to be glass cannon.
Condition build needs only 1 dmg stat to shine allowing you to be incredibly tanky in Dire set.

Also defense against power dmg is quite straightforward – mitigation + dodge.
But defense against condition damage requires cleanse, which some classes have bad access too and some has to do big compromises in their builds to have some. Also as lot of conditions is spammable, so cleanse can be quite impotent sometime.

Current situation is nor funny nor fair and as for myself I do not play much till at least some balance will be established. Also hell would have to freeze over to see me paying for HoT while game is in this state.

Sorry to bring the news to you. There are more than 4 stats in this game. One stat is called condition duration. In fact some condition build got nerfed in this patch because condition duration stat is removed from trait and never make its way to gear since there is no Condi/Cond duration gear.

Also many bleed build relies on crit to bring more bleed. Although I don’t know if it works with other conditions post patch.

Barbed Precision: Critical hits have a chance to cause bleeding. Increases bleed duration.

Sinister is NOT a condition gear because a portion of the damage comes from power. I’m still waiting for a Condi/prec/condi duration gear.

TL;DR condition damage does not just come from one stat.

I have a possible solution that might be not to hard to implement.

Make a condi cleanse priority.
Let burning be the first one and bleeding the last to be cleansed.
Give bosses kitten 1 condi cleans.

the only cond that is out of control is

BURNING.

all other conditions do not even compare to the quickness and level of damage that burning does.

IE
Elem:
anywhere from 8k to 20k burning ticks
as evidenced here-

Guard:
pretty consistent 8k to 10k ticks

these builds utilize sinister gear, and trait themselves to maximize burn procs and bonus damage vs burning targets.

You do not see confusion and bleeds do anywhere near that level of dps.

And the other item to note with burning is that you don’t have to wait for the ramp up— you can easily hot 25 stacks with a few seconds.

Ryouzanpaku.1273:

Problem is in requirements:

Direct damage build needs 3 dmg stats to max dmg – ie Zerker equip – thus forcing you to be glass cannon.
Condition build needs only 1 dmg stat to shine allowing you to be incredibly tanky in Dire set.

3 stats: condition damage, precision, condition duration

Also defense against power dmg is quite straightforward – mitigation + dodge.
But defense against condition damage requires cleanse, which some classes have bad access too and some has to do big compromises in their builds to have some. Also as lot of conditions is spammable, so cleanse can be quite impotent sometime.

some classes also have limited access to mitigation/vigor.

Afya.5842:

Ryouzanpaku.1273:

Problem is in requirements:

Direct damage build needs 3 dmg stats to max dmg – ie Zerker equip – thus forcing you to be glass cannon.
Condition build needs only 1 dmg stat to shine allowing you to be incredibly tanky in Dire set.

3 stats: condition damage, precision, condition duration

Also defense against power dmg is quite straightforward – mitigation + dodge.
But defense against condition damage requires cleanse, which some classes have bad access too and some has to do big compromises in their builds to have some. Also as lot of conditions is spammable, so cleanse can be quite impotent sometime.

some classes also have limited access to mitigation/vigor.

As for mitigation, aegis vigor buffs, some classes are better than others at handling conditions for their team.
Like a Mesmer with the Temporal Enchanter trait.

Arkblue.6129:

Afya.5842:

Ryouzanpaku.1273:

Problem is in requirements:

Direct damage build needs 3 dmg stats to max dmg – ie Zerker equip – thus forcing you to be glass cannon.
Condition build needs only 1 dmg stat to shine allowing you to be incredibly tanky in Dire set.

3 stats: condition damage, precision, condition duration

Also defense against power dmg is quite straightforward – mitigation + dodge.
But defense against condition damage requires cleanse, which some classes have bad access too and some has to do big compromises in their builds to have some. Also as lot of conditions is spammable, so cleanse can be quite impotent sometime.

some classes also have limited access to mitigation/vigor.

As for mitigation, aegis vigor buffs, some classes are better than others at handling conditions for their team.
Like a Mesmer with the Temporal Enchanter trait.

Aegis, Vigor, Protection, Retaliation (and ofc dodge) are more for direct damage protection. Some classes get more of these boons.

Mean while some classes have Resistance, Berserker stance, condition transfer, cleanse.
I think it’s fair.

Rezzet.3614:

in just 2 seconds i apply 12 stacks of burning and thats not mentioning the extra 2 stacks i can add with trait every couple seconds thats easily 6k damage per second i also have bleeding on the side enough to deal 2500-2900 per second need i to say how high the numbers climb up with confusion torment and poison

you may cleane them bbut not all professions have reliable cleanses and the icing of the cake is all of this skills have cooldowns as low as 4 seconds with the highest being 12 seconds while 1 single cleanse will have a minimum of 15-20 seconds

And what defense do we have against critical damage? Aegis? that too has a very long cool down. Blind? prevents only one attack like aegis and disappears. Don’t even try to bring up toughness because if that was a thing, zerker meta would never have existed.

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

Zerk Meta is dying….
Sinister will take it place except vs condition resisting foes or objects.

Except conditions will get nerfed in the next update. Things melt so fast it’s practically a certainty condi will be nerfed

Rezzet.3614:

Miku.6297:

Forsaken.7015:

Condition damage shouldnt be able to compete with power when it comes to damage output. It’s ridiculous to think that it should be equal to power if that were the case then no one thats number crunching would run power.

After 2+ years of ZERKER or GTFO… Condition damage finally gets some love and you say it shouldn’t be competitive?! Seriously?

If it’s truely “ridiculous” to think condi should be equal or on par with power due to number crunching. Whats the point of condition, notice the last 2 years of zerker meta, look what number crunching did to condition builds during that time.

condition is meant to be sustained damage not Burst
condition only scales in damage with one stat one could argue and say 2 if you bring duration to the equation
condition ignores all forms of defense Protection,Invulnerability,Armor,aegis if condition landed before it got applied

and yes condition needed some love but currently its its a bit too much love conditions shouldnt do 10 000 damage per second

I had a commander once on WVW who would simply say: DO NOT STAY IN THE CIRCLES!

Harper.4173:

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

Zerk Meta is dying….
Sinister will take it place except vs condition resisting foes or objects.

Except conditions will get nerfed in the next update. Things melt so fast it’s practically a certainty condi will be nerfed

I don’t think they will be nerfed to the point they will be no longer relevant. As long as condition can stacks, you are still going to have an hard time if you don’t cleanse those 10 burning stacks on you.
Sure, they might wanna balance how available they are and the damage they do. But overall, don’t expect them to return to pre-patch.

Harper.4173:

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

Zerk Meta is dying….
Sinister will take it place except vs condition resisting foes or objects.

Except conditions will get nerfed in the next update. Things melt so fast it’s practically a certainty condi will be nerfed

By nerfing condis if the zerker meta is brought back, then the nerf will undermine everything that came out in the last patch. I don’t think ANET will do that. I’m expecting a very subtle nerf to condis realistically. Ideal case would be to balance both condis and zerker builds.

Just to clarify my previous post:
- I hated zerk meta, to me it is poor game design where one kind of equip is used in 90%+ builds
- I do not want AN to nerf anything, I want them to BALANCE so there are viable various builds not enforced single equip meta
- if I want to play OP class it would be np – I have 4×80, 6slots and enough tomes to insta 80 whatever I want – but I do not want to – it does not give me any pleasure to create ridiculously OP build thanx to the poor balancing&testing
- so pls AN do your iffin job correctly and make us all happy pls

Forsaken.7015:

Too make condi successful all you need is condition damage.

No. You need 3 things:

• Condition Damage for damage
• Condition Duration for more ticks
• Precision for more procs

Most condi build rely on condition damage AND condition duration (also some build may increase the dps by going for precision)… sadly condition duration comes from everywhere except from stats on armor. Basically you gain condition duration without paying a high price since you would eventually go for the traits/runes/food that gives condition damage (they go along with condition duration). Do you even understand why in WvW everyone runs -% and +% condi duration runes and food? Because they know condition is the flavor of the month…. that became the flavor of the Gw2 lifestyle in a small men scenario where there is not enough cleanse vs condition application.

As for PvP, Anet removed some condition based runes from the choices. And there is no food, wonder why? Why not change those gimmicky things all together so we can finally find diversity in runes/food once again. Also make sure condition can’t go full defense and deal those kind of damage.

Even with full dire, a condi can still bring absurd burst, 25k hp and massive toughness to comes up with those burst? You are the judge! So much for the ‘’it takes time to set up’’. Even with a full cleanse you can re-apply the same amount of conditions in 3 seconds.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIBUUYle5hQ&feature=iv&src_vid=NFTHLvzmPr4&annotation_id=annotation_3280454625

The thief condi build. Look at that sexy hp and toughness! Then look at the condi application/burst… Hell even the video maker is speaking of a condi burst thief on a full dire set…

I would totally be fine if to deal damage similar to a full zerker you needed to invest in 3 offensive stats on armor. Just saying.

You guys can toss numbers and claims around all you want but you’re missing the mindset behind these builds.

A zerker build is all about being a glass cannon. You get in fast and do as much damage as you can as fast as you can in order to win. You want instant gratification and are literally throwing away all your defenses to get it.

Condi builds are, by nature, about wearing your opponent down until they can no longer fight. Many of you claim that condition damage is all that’s needed but, by your own admissions, that’s not true. They also need defensive stats because the point is to survive long enough for conditions to do what they are intended to.

Now I can’t specifically speak for other condi users but I can tell you how I think. I often wait for zerkers to make the first move because my first move is to counter theirs. Maybe I stun them in the middle of their gap closer, block all of their opening shots or I’ll use a counterattack. In any cause, my intent is to break their burst because, once I do that, they have next to nothing left while their skills are recharging. In that time, they are my prey.

Condis don’t just autoattack because there’s no way any condi will be lethal just from autos just like there’s no way a zerker can take anyone down with just autos. What you see is them bidding their time and waiting for that perfect moment. Some might be baiting your condition clears and stun breaks before they decide to strike. Others may simply be distracting you. Many times I have fought 1v2 and even 1v3 battles at the enemy base, knowing I will eventually die but giving my teammates time to capture points and objectives. Zerkers are easy prey for such a tactic because they are always looking for a fight.

If you truly want to beat condis, the first thing you have to do is get into their mindset. Save your burst for when it’s most favorable to you instead of opening with it. Select skills and traits that serve more than one use and be very selective about when you use them. (Guardians turning condis into boons is a very good example.) Learn what skills apply what conditions and learn how to dodge them. Know when to run from a fight. If they’re just guarding a point then let them have it and get the others instead. And, for the love of all that is holy, always have a condition clear and know WHEN to use it! A few stacks of bleed, even from a high condi build, won’t kill you right away. Wait for it to get high before using your cleanses.

If you want to directly counter condis, build bunker and bring lots of condi cleanses. With 3 you should easily be able to negate most of the damage from even happening and take them down with power attacks. I can do it in knights gear so I am sure many of you can do the same.

As for the current meta, spiking condi damage should never be a thing.

Crossplay.2067:

[Snip]
As for the current meta, spiking condi damage should never be a thing.

From a gameplay perspective, this is exactly the issue: some conditions are over abudant because, before the patch, people needed to “time” them to get the full effect instead of overlapping them.
For example, as a guardian you didn’t want to use 2 burnings in a row as in that situation a cleanse would remove both istance of the Condition.

Now people can just spam condition, and either they remove them istantly, or they take spike damage, which goes against the expected gameplay of a condition build.

I guess they will have to nerf some condition damage from base abilities and move them on traits, to balance the gameplay to the new rule.
Sure, condistacking should be effective, but not without commitment.
For example, if a Guardian uses Virtue of Justice in PvP and the whole team focuses one person, it’s ok to stack 5+ burning stacks because the whole team partecipated in the effort. However, when burning is already present everywhere because it was balanced to the before-patch mechanics, the burning stacks aren’t 5, they are 10 or more.

i also think a small tweak on burning application, or like i suggestet cleansing, is all it needs. Rest is learning. Now condie will occour more often, because more valid builds out.

Crossplay.2067:

You guys can toss numbers and claims around all you want but you’re missing the mindset behind these builds.

You can toss any argument about the way those builds are intended to work. Currently condi burst exist, even prior to burning becoming more overpowered.

Words are worth so little.
Screenshot are decent proof.
Videos are actual fact.

Did you take a look at the 2 videos I posted right before you did? Please do. Those are actual facts and those builds are even more powerful now with the latest patch!

I do understand your point about waiting for the good time, that’s how it should be done. But even if you try to burst down a condi dire, he will still survive, unless you can show me a build that can pretty much do 20k + damage before he can go into disengaging mode and heal rotation. Basically, you need more than 1 perfect burst rotation with RNJesus having your back to burst those players, which is kind of absurd for the pressure those condi dire build can apply. Of course a power build can still kill those builds but I feel like they are little too tanky for the dps output they have.

I don’t agree with the OP’s arguments at all. When I come across a power warri with my condi ranger, I don’t see my conditions killing a warri that fast at all. In fact, I usually find the warri’s burst and just general dps dropping my hp much faster and easier. During this time I need to rely on careful timing to mitigate that damage and imo that takes significant skill. I need to make sure I manage my dodges, evades, stun breaks and just general kiting and positioning in and efficient and effective way to make sure I survive long enough against hard hitting dps, so my conditions will eventually wear the warri down. This does take significant skill in my opinion., it is no cake walk!

I think what fires up power users, is they are just get too easily frustrated when their 5-10 sec burst opening and rotation fails to down you. The weakness among these players as I see it is they are too aggressive in the duel and no longer know what to do after that.

piza.9310:

The only problem I have with Condi damage is how it melts World Bosses. Teq is melting like crazy, worm can easilly be done naked and Jormag is a joke.

THey were like that before.

HAHA, condition does more damage than zerk? My cleanse says NO! HAHA!!!

I believe the problem is the question of what conditions should be. Please go to this thread
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/What-should-conditions-be/first#post5216410
to give your opinion about this.

Arkblue.6129:

For example, if a Guardian uses Virtue of Justice in PvP and the whole team focuses one person, it’s ok to stack 5+ burning stacks because the whole team partecipated in the effort. However, when burning is already present everywhere because it was balanced to the before-patch mechanics, the burning stacks aren’t 5, they are 10 or more.

Yes they are 10+ stacks now but you are forgeting that before 1 stacks = max output damage on burn condition now you must hit those high stacks to get good damage output since 1 stack is only a few hundred now. That takes a build is that purposely built for burn stacking and duration and so you are committing yourself to that role.

I may be biased since I run a burn guard build but I ran this build ever since they introduced the +burning damage grandmaster trait and the big difference between then and now is now I dont get hate from other players when they find out im not zerk….

People need to stop talking about condition duration like its a comparable stat. Condition duration isnt available on armor or accesories. The game is not built with condi duration as a primary or secondary stat.

They have moved even further away from it being a stat.

Point is you cant run condi duration in armor/accesories even if you want to. Which means for a max condi build you have an almost Complete secondary stats worth of another stat.

Essentially you get more for less investment