Guild Wars 2

phys.7689:

People need to stop talking about condition duration like its a comparable stat. Condition duration isnt available on armor or accesories. The game is not built with condi duration as a primary or secondary stat.

They have moved even further away from it being a stat.

Point is you cant run condi duration in armor/accesories even if you want to. Which means for a max condi build you have an almost Complete secondary stats worth of another stat.

Essentially you get more for less investment

Wrong. Just like you need more precision to land more crits, you need more condi duration to maintain the stacks of condis you apply. Working hard to add a stack of condis that don’t last long is as dumb as running a power build without precision.

Vesuvius.9874:

phys.7689:

People need to stop talking about condition duration like its a comparable stat. Condition duration isnt available on armor or accesories. The game is not built with condi duration as a primary or secondary stat.

They have moved even further away from it being a stat.

Point is you cant run condi duration in armor/accesories even if you want to. Which means for a max condi build you have an almost Complete secondary stats worth of another stat.

Essentially you get more for less investment

Wrong. Just like you need more precision to land more crits, you need more condi duration to maintain the stacks of condis you apply. Working hard to add a stack of condis that don’t last long is as dumb as running a power build without precision.

It doesnt matter. Because you cant actually get gear with condi dur on it.
The highest condi dmg build does not have condi dur on any armor or accesories.

This means it has extra stats left over and is still high dps.

The highest direct dmg build gives 100% of its stats to dd

The highest condi dmg does not

Condi was fine before the patch, a little under performing in places. The problem with the WvW dire stats was from two specific builds – PU Mesmer and P/D thief and that was due to stealth, not condition damage – they just synergised well.

I snort at people who say condi requires no skill and is passive play and yet those who say it are running zerker builds where a good portion of their damage comes from air/fire procs.

Condi needed a buff, so many passive cleanses were thrown around that it made it difficult for condi to perform at all.

I love condi, I love the attrition gameplay, blowing people up bores me tbh that said, this new patch has ruined that. I was worried that burning was getting nerfed with the changes, I could not have been more wrong.
Burning is out of whack, that is what is causing all this burst condi damage which condi shouldn’t be about mostly. Condi should be about attrition and sustained DPS, it SHOULD be comparable to full zerker in BOTH PvP and PvE otherwise you’re always going to have one favor the other regardless. However there is room for burst condi, however it MUST follow the same drawbacks as what zerker does which as some mentioned would require a 3rd stat to scale condi from.

phys.7689:

The highest direct dmg build gives 100% of its stats to dd

The highest condi dmg does not

and that is why direct damage lays out considerably more damage.

Belexes.4923:

phys.7689:

The highest direct dmg build gives 100% of its stats to dd

The highest condi dmg does not

and that is why direct damage lays out considerably more damage.

The premise of this thread was that, condi dmg should be weaker than direct dmg, before they changed the title or merged it or whatever

And are you sure that is still the case?

phys.7689:

The premise of this thread was that, condi dmg should be weaker than direct dmg, before they changed the title or merged it or whatever

Why should it be weaker?

Vesuvius.9874:

phys.7689:

The premise of this thread was that, condi dmg should be weaker than direct dmg, before they changed the title or merged it or whatever

Why should it be weaker?

You want me to recap the main points of the debate?
Just like 3 posts up is one reason.
There are others.

And weaker is a bit vague lets say it should do less dps. It is stronger in other ways.

Or they could change it so that conditions applied by the same player stack in duration instead. Bleeding keeps a cap of 25 per player.
PlayerA applies 1 stack of Burning for 5 seconds. Target now has 1 stack of Burning for 5s.
PlayerB applies 1 stack of Burning for 7 seconds. Target now has 2 stacks of Burning, 1 for 5s, 1 for 7s.
PlayerA reapplies Burning for 3 seconds. Target now has 2 stacks of Burning, 1 for 8s, 1 or 7s.
etc

It’s not quite that simple. First of all, keep in mind that condition builds typically incorporate some physical damage, but the opposite isn’t necessarily true. This means that, to some extent, power/crit/ferocity benefits everybody, while condition damage is more specialized for certain builds. Otherwise-

Physical damage has the huge benefit of being instantaneous and bursty. It has the drawback of being affected by Toughness.

Condition damage has the benefit of being passive (i.e. dealing damage outside of melee range or not facing your target). It has the huge detriment of requiring ramp-up and often failing to apply in full due to targets dying or cleansing.

Because of the above, they are not exactly equal. Direct damage benefits outweigh drawbacks more often than not, while conditions drawbacks outweigh benefits more often than not. I would say relative balance is achieved somewhere around 1 physical damage for 1.3 – 1.5 condition damage.

So, my argument is that they need to introduce condition duration and boon duration stats on gear and do some rebalancing around that, then call it a day. 3 stats governing physical damage and 2 governing conditions.

I would also love to see a fully viable total support set-up using boon duration, healing power, and condition duration. That would be awesome.

Rampager and sinister should be equal to zerker and assassin in DPS.
This said, CD should be more about drawn out fights while zerker should shine in burst damage.

CD shouldn’t do the same burst damage as zerker, and zerker and assassin should slightly lose the lead in dps on longer fights. Dire shouldn’t compete in dps with rampager or sinister, and in fact it doesn’t.

In short, make cd more about upkeep and less about burst, but let zerker and assassin have more choices in terms of how to do viable dps (with rampager and assassin)

Crossplay.2067:

You guys can toss numbers and claims around all you want but you’re missing the mindset behind these builds.

A zerker build is all about being a glass cannon. You get in fast and do as much damage as you can as fast as you can in order to win. You want instant gratification and are literally throwing away all your defenses to get it.

Condi builds are, by nature, about wearing your opponent down until they can no longer fight. Many of you claim that condition damage is all that’s needed but, by your own admissions, that’s not true. They also need defensive stats because the point is to survive long enough for conditions to do what they are intended to.

Now I can’t specifically speak for other condi users but I can tell you how I think. I often wait for zerkers to make the first move because my first move is to counter theirs. Maybe I stun them in the middle of their gap closer, block all of their opening shots or I’ll use a counterattack. In any cause, my intent is to break their burst because, once I do that, they have next to nothing left while their skills are recharging. In that time, they are my prey.

Condis don’t just autoattack because there’s no way any condi will be lethal just from autos just like there’s no way a zerker can take anyone down with just autos. What you see is them bidding their time and waiting for that perfect moment. Some might be baiting your condition clears and stun breaks before they decide to strike. Others may simply be distracting you. Many times I have fought 1v2 and even 1v3 battles at the enemy base, knowing I will eventually die but giving my teammates time to capture points and objectives. Zerkers are easy prey for such a tactic because they are always looking for a fight.

If you truly want to beat condis, the first thing you have to do is get into their mindset. Save your burst for when it’s most favorable to you instead of opening with it. Select skills and traits that serve more than one use and be very selective about when you use them. (Guardians turning condis into boons is a very good example.) Learn what skills apply what conditions and learn how to dodge them. Know when to run from a fight. If they’re just guarding a point then let them have it and get the others instead. And, for the love of all that is holy, always have a condition clear and know WHEN to use it! A few stacks of bleed, even from a high condi build, won’t kill you right away. Wait for it to get high before using your cleanses.

If you want to directly counter condis, build bunker and bring lots of condi cleanses. With 3 you should easily be able to negate most of the damage from even happening and take them down with power attacks. I can do it in knights gear so I am sure many of you can do the same.

As for the current meta, spiking condi damage should never be a thing.

you just pointed out exactly why condition is broken they are meant to do Sustained damage and destroy enemies over time , however with the current implementation we are seeing even up to 20k damage per second .

also building bunker against condi builds is basically giving free wins to the enemy as condition damage was precisesely created to take down high survivability targets hence why it ignores armor and such .

You also need to take into consideration that conditions can be cleansed unlike direct damage. That will cause a large drop in condition damage if used properly. This doesn’t happen in PvE, but in PvP/WvW it most certainly does.

phys.7689:

Vesuvius.9874:

phys.7689:

People need to stop talking about condition duration like its a comparable stat. Condition duration isnt available on armor or accesories. The game is not built with condi duration as a primary or secondary stat.

They have moved even further away from it being a stat.

Point is you cant run condi duration in armor/accesories even if you want to. Which means for a max condi build you have an almost Complete secondary stats worth of another stat.

Essentially you get more for less investment

Wrong. Just like you need more precision to land more crits, you need more condi duration to maintain the stacks of condis you apply. Working hard to add a stack of condis that don’t last long is as dumb as running a power build without precision.

It doesnt matter. Because you cant actually get gear with condi dur on it.
The highest condi dmg build does not have condi dur on any armor or accesories.

This means it has extra stats left over and is still high dps.

Someone finally gets it.

Conditions need lower base durations and scaling and need a three-stat system for DPS builds like power builds to be comparable. I have no issue with sinister gear dealing damage like berserker’s. It’s just that dire gear dealing such damage (and it does) is absurd and makes no sense.

Burning as it stands is factually overpowered. A huge reduction in application and scaling is necessary and would probably solve a lot of issues, though.

I’d like to insist on my point. This debate does not work because we don’t agree on what is the place of conditions in gw2. I try to explain my point in this thread
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/What-should-conditions-be/first#post5217604
Before asking for any adjustment, we have to agree on what we want!

Duration is not the problem, there are that many condi cleanses that it’s rather irrelevant and a shorter duration helps in some way as some people waste their condi clear on short stacking bleeds then we can apply our longer duration condi without fear of insta cleanse.

Also it’s all good an well being up in arms about condi damage but this is part of a bigger problem and that is power creep – zerker builds are over performing too.
The only difference being is that condi saw a comparatively larger power creep than what power did – a shatter mesmer can almost ‘oneshot’ someone who is defensively built same with backstab thieves with little or no time to react.

I’m not saying this makes condi balanced but it is a part of the jigsaw that Anet like to call ‘balance’.

Vesuvius.9874:

Harper.4173:

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

Zerk Meta is dying….
Sinister will take it place except vs condition resisting foes or objects.

Except conditions will get nerfed in the next update. Things melt so fast it’s practically a certainty condi will be nerfed

By nerfing condis if the zerker meta is brought back, then the nerf will undermine everything that came out in the last patch. I don’t think ANET will do that. I’m expecting a very subtle nerf to condis realistically. Ideal case would be to balance both condis and zerker builds.

They will nerf condis mate. World bosses melt ridiculously fast. There are specs out there that are completely broken. Trust me.

phys.7689:

People need to stop talking about condition duration like its a comparable stat. Condition duration isnt available on armor or accesories. The game is not built with condi duration as a primary or secondary stat.

They have moved even further away from it being a stat.

Point is you cant run condi duration in armor/accesories even if you want to. Which means for a max condi build you have an almost Complete secondary stats worth of another stat.

Essentially you get more for less investment

Giver’s weapons?
Second thing is the DURATION CAP!
you can only add 100% duration..
40-50% comes from food/utility,
10-20% comes from sigils
runes tend to offer 15-45% duration…

Bosses melt due to 50%-70% of all damage in this game was never accounted for….. capped or ignored….

Conditions being capped at 1500 are here to stay, blees will be buffed 10%, fire will get a small nerf (probably both a fire damage and duration or rate of application of stacks), and everybody and their friends will carry SOME SORT of condi reducing trick, either being runes, food or traits…

I actually like this change, spiders are now quite dangerous in AC….Luckily the reflects still work.

I really do see the benefit of the -added- condimeta…

I do agree I wouldn’t spec an rabid/undead guardian though…

On a side note… My friends list after the patch dropped was full of players that have since been on a hiatus from the game 50+ ppl all hoping for good changes to the game. That lasted about 24 hours.

Today when I get on the few ppl that are still on are mostly there to complain about condi damage and do pve. Pvp and wvw is all but dead for 90% of my friends list witch consists of all pvp/wvw players, considering I do as little pve as i can and still have ascended gear. This just shows how dissatisfied the player base is with the current changes.

I’m hopeful but I’m guilty of this as well. I log in see no balance has been made yet and I log out. The longer this goes on the more players will loose interest, and the pve in this game isnt enough to hold my attention.