Guild Wars 2

It is know that about 75% of the population use crit build or 20% use tank builds. The problem is the uselessness of conditions. Condition Builds are becoming one of the worst builds to play and it is due to many factors.

1. Yellow objects in dungeons (they are uneffected by conditions waste of space crit better)

2. Condition removal ( eles can remove a condition on dodge role to easy and all the stacks of bleed are removed when you remove bleeding. Takes a whole lot longer to give 25 stacks than to take way.)

3. Conditions too weak ( 100 health a second for the best condition builds is chump change to 3000 a second from crit).

4. Lack of conditions or hexs ( weakness, daze, vuln, do not increase condition damage, Only bleed, burning and poison deal damage conistantly.)

5. too short a time limit (explanatory)

Are they doing anything to address condition damage cause it is useless and it shows on the trader when the least expensive stuff is that with condition. This makes Crit to expensive to use.

This is vague. Which class do you feel is struggling with condition damage at the moment?

When I run traps sword/torch/shortbow in WvW, my ranger has a pretty easy time. 2 fire fields on a short cooldown, both of which also grant fire aura if I combo. Throw torch is also another 7~sec burn, short cooldown. Poison on shortbow2, shortbow sigil swap, sword, sometimes trap if I slot it. Bleeding on shortbow auto, spiketrap, sword sigil swap. The condition application is so constant, that their really is no class thats going to clear it all over and over again. I could say the same for my HGH engi.

• Rangers are either running HS or 30 survival, so really all you have to do is wait for the spring to end, or wait for survival to clear auto attack bleeds, then load them up with burns and poison.
• eles are going to clear 1-2 condis as they enter water, and 1 every 10 seconds if they dodge in water. Cleansing wave is on a long cooldown. Wait for them to leave water, burn them with fire. If they’re running ether renewal, interrupt it with shortbow5 (its a long channel, this is very easy), but most I meet are running signet.
• engies with 409 can be a pain, but how often do you see engies, let alone one running HGH without potent elixirs (they cant take that AND 409).

those are the 3 hardest scenarios and theyre not that bad, but consider the alternative: everyone and their mother is running high toughness, and the ones that arent have low HP anyway, so condi’s are almost always just as if not more effective than power in wvw. the idea that condi’s are useless because 100 guardians zerg around together shouting off conditions is bogus, at least on my server.

i agree with you on yellow objects, and i agree with you if you are playing a necro. necros problems are that their condition damage comes almost exclusively from bleeding, which makes them very easy to clean since bleeding takes buildup. the next patch is supposed to give necros access to burning, hopefully they put it someplace useful (Deathshroud 1). they could also use some type of spammable cover conditions to protect their bleeds.

You forgot the major problem with condition builds in the game and it’s the way that Anet manages conditions by stacks on a mob rather than damage by player. This is why in any grouping one condition player, say a necro, can maintain max bleed stacks on a mob. If you added 10 more necros you really wouldn’t be adding much to the damage output of the group. For comparison, consider adding 10 zerker warriors and you will see why warriors are sought out for group play and condition builds are not, by and large.

The problem is simple. Condition builds are really about damage over time, i.e. a base amount of damage per tick of time for a certain number of ticks. That’s the concept that should be in play. It is exactly the same as direct damage, but it is delivered over time rather than front-loaded. The sustained damage of a direct damage build or condition build should be comparable in any significant fight. Sure, a warrior is going to deal a lot more damage in a 2 second fight, but I’m talking about sustained damage in a significant fight. This is part of the trade-off with direct and DoT.

Direct damage is properly accounted for in the game, but DoT is not. The major fix to condition builds is to move it from stacks on a mob to damage by player, i.e., damage/tick X number of ticks. Simple. There is no problem with condition builds stacking to infinity because there is only damage by player and, again, it should be comparable to a direct damage build in a sustained fight. With this change the major problem with condition builds will be solved. There are a number of ancillary problems like environmental objects etc., but condition builds will continue to be a problem until the major problem is fixed.

Raine.1394:

You forgot the major problem with condition builds in the game and it’s the way that Anet manages conditions by stacks on a mob rather than damage by player.

i didnt forget it, its just that he repeatedly mentioned players clearing conditions off, which implies its a wvw/pvp complaint. there really are not enough condition users in either of those cases to feel like someone else is keeping you from adding bleeds on another player.

It’s pretty well known that conditions in PvE are broken. I believe they’ve already publicly said they are working on it and will have some changes coming in the future, but I am too lazy to go dig up the source.

Whenever I run my condi necro, I always feel powerful. I don’t run in to many other bleed stackers in dungeons, dunno why.

Ignoring Armor and damage reduction is really what kills conditions, because with that mechanic in play, making them adequate in PvE and you make them insanely overpowered in PvP.

As Raine said the best you can do is remove the stacking mechanic and make it a combination of increased damage/duration application.

Diversity is key in team condition composition. My typical team is Thief (poison), Ranger (burning), and Engineer (bleeds). They are all balanced builds that put on their conditions then go to damage/Crit.

No this is not min/maxing play style that would be needed for tPvP. But t works great for EVERYwhere else. And that shows me the change is most needed for PvP to be split.

Ya I agree you can run with five Necros if you want, but why? All sports, businesses, life thrive on diversity. Guaranteed loss= 5 point guards… 11 quarterbacks… 9 pitchers… however many goalies… You get my point.

Raven.9603:

Raine.1394:

You forgot the major problem with condition builds in the game and it’s the way that Anet manages conditions by stacks on a mob rather than damage by player.

i didnt forget it, its just that he repeatedly mentioned players clearing conditions off, which implies its a wvw/pvp complaint. there really are not enough condition users in either of those cases to feel like someone else is keeping you from adding bleeds on another player.

The OP lists 5 issues, only one of which is condition removal. The other four issues apply to other parts of the game as well as to WvW. So, for you, the relative lack of condition builds you encounter in WvW makes the issue OK. Another question might be, if conditions are OK, why the relative lack of such builds?

Condition removals are too strong and too frequent in this game. Makes condition builds weak in PVP. And the more players you get in a fight, the more condition clearing becomes powerful since large stacks get wiped at once, far outpacing that there are more conditions flying around.

In PVE conditions cannot hurt objects, and people just want to burn stuff down in dungeons due to that defensive stats have little value, since defense is all about avoiding damage altogether. So no one wants damage over time attrition builds.

Anet needs to do some serious evaluations on how to fix these things, because balance in the game is dreadfully borked.

IndigoSundown.5419:

The OP lists 5 issues, only one of which is condition removal. The other four issues apply to other parts of the game as well as to WvW. So, for you, the relative lack of condition builds you encounter in WvW makes the issue OK. Another question might be, if conditions are OK, why the relative lack of such builds?

he does list 5 issues, and I agree with the first. the second is class dependant, the third is completely exaggeration (conditions can do more than 100 dps and really no one is sustaining 3k dps), the 4th and 5th issues seem like personal preference and arent really debatable because of that.

there is a relative lack of such builds because only 2 classes in the game have really good condition application and variety (engi and ranger).

necros put all their eggs into bleeds and a bleed stack falling off sets them back hard. a ranger/engi will still have 2 damaging conditions rolling. likewise, mesmers put most of their eggs in the confusion basket and are equally boned if it gets cleared, plus there was a recent confusion nerf. thats not a condition removal problem, its a class problem because they dont have good access to other condition types.

some other classes do have good condition access like the ele and the warrior, but the warrior longbow and every single ele weapon benefit far more from power, even if they are capable of applying conditions. again, these arent condition problems, they are shortcomings with a class spec.

I do believe he’s talking PVE and I wholeheartedly agree.

Not only are they weak and the crit doesn’t do much with the dmg output but they also aren’t equal. my zerker crit build thief does significantly more per bleed damage then my condition engineer.

Remember when poisoning used to actually matter and when it was deadly?

About PvE here are the issues I can think about :

- Condition stacking : the fact it is capped for everyone and not for each player decrease rapidly the power of condition build when more players are involved. The fact some conditions such as burning or poison don’t stack in intensity is also heading in this direction. With a condition build you will almost systematically see your dammage reduced in dungeon by this cap and you will deal next to zero damage on a world boss due to this.

- inanimated objects : They don’t suffer from conditions so it takes ages to destroy them whereas power build tear through them in no time.

- High HP pools : the only avantages of DoTs over direct damage are the fact it goes through damage mitigation and ignore armor. However (dungeons and fractals in particular), mobs tend to have large HP pool but not that much toughness and scale only in HP. So DD build are here favoured by the scaling while condition builds lose their avantage.

- CC and condition reduction : While some boss (particularly world boss) have crit reduction, most haven’t. However, every single champion and legendary in this game sees the duration of the conditions applied to him mitigated. And, of course, there are the defiant stacks but that’s not a problem only bound to condition builds.

-Disregard for defensive stats : in most situation it is more safe for you to go full zerker and nuke the ennemy down before it can damage you than choose more defensive stats to soak its damages. It means the shorter the fight is the better so once again it favours dd builds over conditions.

So i’m new to the game (had it about 2 to 3 months) and i’m working on my level 80 Ranger, this is my current setup i’m working with

http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=VG;4wEFy-x2cDF-0;9-6;2TT44-02717A;74-V04;1V19cV1ugB3Gm0-NW90;0VOVT0j1o2jZo_71-AV-qW7X7X7X;9;9;9;9;9;51s5P

I’m kinda confused with all this talk about how condition damage is broken and stuff, could someone care to fill me in? Also me and some guildies are gunna try a dungeon tonight and we’re all relatively speaking condition builds….are we totally screwed? lol

UrMom.4205:

So i’m new to the game (had it about 2 to 3 months) and i’m working on my level 80 Ranger, this is my current setup i’m working with

http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=VG;4wEFy-x2cDF-0;9-6;2TT44-02717A;74-V04;1V19cV1ugB3Gm0-NW90;0VOVT0j1o2jZo_71-AV-qW7X7X7X;9;9;9;9;9;51s5P

I’m kinda confused with all this talk about how condition damage is broken and stuff, could someone care to fill me in? Also me and some guildies are gunna try a dungeon tonight and we’re all relatively speaking condition builds….are we totally screwed? lol

On your own, you’re fine with condition builds as it’s pretty difficult to hit 25 stacks of bleed/burn/poison on your own. But in a team, it’s extremely easy to do so, and that’s where the problems lie, as any excess stacks overwipe the oldest ones, resulting in wasted damage. Condition damage also doesn’t affect objects, of which some dungeons will have. This is the prime reason why many players use builds which focus on power and critical damage, as they don’t suffer from the stacking problems condition builds do.

Zero.6082:

3. Conditions too weak ( 100 health a second for the best condition builds is chump change to 3000 a second from crit).

Maybe you are not trying to be specific, but if I go condition build at level 80, I am doing a LOT more damage than 100/s. Try closer to 500/s plus the crits and ordinary hits I am scoring (and I never go full-out conditions, either). Comparing just the condition damage to just the direct damage of another character is not really a valid comparison since both are doing direct damage. Compare condition damage to the difference.

Do u think that condition damage is bad? I guess u don’t realized that healing power is 100x worst.

Condition damage is fine in WvW. Its an issue in PvE though.

“Maybe you are not trying to be specific, but if I go condition build at level 80, I am doing a LOT more damage than 100/s. Try closer to 500/s plus the crits and ordinary hits I am scoring (and I never go full-out conditions, either). Comparing just the condition damage to just the direct damage of another character is not really a valid comparison since both are doing direct damage. Compare condition damage to the difference.”

lol your joking right 500/s maybe if ur adding you ticks up, but i highly doubt any 1 of ur ticks hits for over 150, theres a reason why everyone loves zerker because in pve cond is broken

pickpocket.2071:

“Maybe you are not trying to be specific, but if I go condition build at level 80, I am doing a LOT more damage than 100/s. Try closer to 500/s plus the crits and ordinary hits I am scoring (and I never go full-out conditions, either). Comparing just the condition damage to just the direct damage of another character is not really a valid comparison since both are doing direct damage. Compare condition damage to the difference.”

lol your joking right 500/s maybe if ur adding you ticks up, but i highly doubt any 1 of ur ticks hits for over 150, theres a reason why everyone loves zerker because in pve cond is broken

are you serious?

Hitting 100 dmg/s with per bleed is easy. Maintaining 5 bleeds = 500dps, = easy.

When you consider that necro’s can hit 10-15 stacks of bleed easily + direct damage, or that rangers can hit 7-8 stacks of bleed + direct damage + full burning uptime + full poison uptime… most condition classes are easily well over 2k dps.

What he was saying is that the OP’s 3rd point is a complete fabrication (lie? exaggeration? take your pick). Condition damage number wise is excellent, in many cases much higher than physical damage.

The problem lies in class balance and condition mechanics. Caps per target rather than per player hurt multiple condition users. Yellow objects hurt condition users. Condition clears on classes with no condition variety (mesmer, necro) hurt condition users. Condition weapons on some classes benefit even more from power (warrior, ranger, ele), and that reduces condition specs.

But the (condition) damage itself is very strong.

Raven.9603:

• eles are going to clear 1-2 condis as they enter water, and 1 every 10 seconds if they dodge in water. Cleansing wave is on a long cooldown. Wait for them to leave water, burn them with fire. If they’re running ether renewal, interrupt it with shortbow5 (its a long channel, this is very easy), but most I meet are running signet.

You forgot cleansing water. Remove a condition whenever you grant regeneration.

Soothing Mist : regenerate when attuned to water for 1 condition cleanse
Soothing Disruption: cantrips cause regeneration for 3 more condition cleanses
Elemental Attunement: regenerate on attunement to water for 1 condition cleanse
Cleansing Wave: remove a condition when attuning to water for 1 condition cleanse
Ether Renewal: cleanse per pulse
Cleansing Fire: remove 3 conditions (a cantrip, so triggers SD→CW as well)

Now this is all according to tool tips. I couldn’t tell you if they all work exactly as described, but I can say that conditions fall off of my D/D ele so fast I was puzzled by the face crabs the first time I went to Southsun. I could see the crab, could see the “face crab” icon, but couldn’t figure out why they didn’t seem to have an actual game effect. That was because in the normal course of play their conditions disappeared before I saw them.

Of course, an ele has to invest heavily in water and cantrips to do all of this removal, but heavy water investment is pretty common currently.

Gibson.4036:

Raven.9603:

• eles are going to clear 1-2 condis as they enter water, and 1 every 10 seconds if they dodge in water. Cleansing wave is on a long cooldown. Wait for them to leave water, burn them with fire. If they’re running ether renewal, interrupt it with shortbow5 (its a long channel, this is very easy), but most I meet are running signet.

You forgot cleansing water. Remove a condition whenever you grant regeneration.

i was including cleansing water. I said 1-2 conditions when entering, and 1 with a water-dodge.

Cleansing wave is 1 condi down when you swap to water. If you have cleansing water (and elemental attunement), thats your second condition down when you swap to water. Hence, 1-2.

Cleansing water isnt really significant outside of water swapping because cantrips are really, really important in their situational use, so no one is going to use them just for a single condition clear. Soothing Disruption is taken more as a nice vigor/regen boon source than it is for using cantrips to clear conditions.

Very few ele’s were running cleansing fire because condition removal is already high. Essentially in order to justify it you would need to be without cleansing water and ether renewal.

The points, mostly, were that ele condition removal is spread out by water attunement cooldown, which allows constant condition application specs like rangers and engineers to still do very well against them. Classes that rely on a single specific and hard to build condition struggle (necro, mesmer) and need help.

Wanted to add my 2 cents here because I’ve been thinking the same thing recently.

I do all my testing in PvP, mostly tPvP. I’m currently pvp lvl 32, Wolf, and I win fairly often with my staff ele so I feel like i have a fair grasp of what I’m doing.

I always preferred condition builds in GW1, but can’t seem to make one very successful or threatening, at least with the Ele so far.

At last attempt at condition build, I basically did high condition damage (1692) and armor (3010) with low attack/medium crit (2227 / 48%). With this build I’m basically under protection and fireshield non-stop, so anyone i fought was basically burning non stop and usually under 5-14 stacks of bleeding (and of course I keep hitting them with basic attacks, chills, vulnerabil, cripple, etc).

With the amount of extra time non stop Protection and that high armor should afford me, I couldn’t burn/bleed just about anyone to death. Most characters would continue trading attacks with me without even bothering to take the burning off and punk my character out before I could get them below half life. With the extra long time that takes their basic heal is also always ready again, and they finish battle at full life. Especially with all bonus downright poored into condition damage (1692), this seems awfully ineffective.

On the flip side, I can pump up the power and crit, use all my fun trait slots on damage bonuses instead, and just punk out a low armored character in one quick 4-5 second burst, or just apply the same burst to a higher armored character two to three times. Do I like having to finish every battle in under 10 seconds or die? No. Is it effective currently? Yes. As an Ele, I don’t even carry cantrips or all those condition removing water traits, and high crit burst is still the only thing i ever really worry about.

I think the crit thing (because you really can hit 100%) has gotten a tad out of control, and I think the best fix is to raise the condition damage signifiganly, and raise total life some, or something to that extent, because currently Crit death – just too fast and extreme even when it’s only one player spiking, and condition death – just not enough pressure/too slow to actually work.

Again, just my 2 cents, but tested a lot and seems to be the way it is.