Guild Wars 2

I think there is some confusion between the way conditions are displayed now and the way they will be displayed come the 15th. The patch is only introducing a cosmetic change to the way conditions are displayed. Rather than seeing many “153” flying all over the place, the bleeds will be displayed as larger summations. The way conditions are stacked, as well as the stack limit, is not being effected.

I think the people with the highest damage per tick should have priority in the conditions on a boss with the players who have less damage per tick have their condition damage done instantly every time it SHOULD tick.

The cap would still be problematic in big fights, but having some sort of priority would be nice.

Draknar.5748:

krixis.9538:

condition for pvp

zerker for pve

tada problem solved

Yep. Condition builds own PvP.

Time to start, I dunno, trying different builds or something instead of hoping for condition damage build to be viable across the board no matter what situation. I can tell you my healing/boon dur guardian would get owned in PvP and doesn’t cut it in Teq fight compared to Zerk. You don’t hear me whining about it.

Because necros have a TON of direct damage options.

Fire-and-forget conditions fixes it all: Make a condition’s damage-per-tick determined at the instance that condition the is applied — it is set in stone.

Right now, damage-per-tick is recalculated at least once per second (so that if you receive might, for example, that condition starts to tick more) and thus requires TONS of calculations and data retrievals.

Still nothing substantial from the devas on this?

Kind of a big issue, to say nothing about. Alienates a large % of the population.

Someone noted this on Reddit: http://i.imgur.com/Qix7Int.jpg

Could a possible fix to bleeds allow condition classes to burst bleeds off a target for a lot of upfront damage? It sounds interesting, but that could have big repercussions in PvP.

The absolute failure to address one of the single most important issues with the game is one example of how truly incompetent and uncaring the designers and developers are.

All we’ve ever heard is that they’re currently looking at the issue. For over a year now. And there have been many reasonable solutions presented in these forums and elsewhere.

Henri Blanche.8276:

The absolute failure to address one of the single most important issues with the game is one example of how truly incompetent and uncaring the designers and developers are.

All we’ve ever heard is that they’re currently looking at the issue. For over a year now. And there have been many reasonable solutions presented in these forums and elsewhere.

This is how I feel, and honestly at this point I’m more upset at the lack of communication to the community. I know they’re looking for a solution, and it could even take a while, but keep us updated.

This whole thing has made Anet have a bad reputation, and with future issues I’ll just remember how horribly this was handled and not expect much from them to fix it.

It’s just weird that they explicitly said they’d address conditions in PvE and then never did.

did a labyrinth zerg run today with my pistol engineer, and the new damage popups really showed how little impact my bleeds had.

I was seeing maybe 1-2 ticks, then nothing for a long while, then 1-2 again. This while if i run solo it can reach 10+ stack size just by letting the autofire do its thing.

And i suspect the new pr second damage popups are simply showing how the damage has always been done internally. The spray of numbers style bleed was simply eyecandy done client side.

Yeah, labyrinth zergs have really revitalized my concern.

Lopez.7369:

Yeah, labyrinth zergs have really revitalized my concern.

Yeah especially with the new damage indicators I realized how bad it was… This is what happened to me today when attacking one of the bosses:

Warrior in party chat: Nice my hundred blades just hit him for 25k.
Me… looks at screen…

-150 (bleed)
-240 (poison)
-250 (auto-attack)

me: /cry

Yeah. It’s even worse on the one boss where direct damage is multiplied and condition damage isn’t.

I’m more concerned that he thought 25k hundred blades is something special.

ANet you disappoint me that it has been over a year and NOTHING has been done to fix this broken mechanic.

At the very least, why can’t condition builds damage all objects after all this time?

Conditions, crit and crit damage are probably my biggest complaint with this game.

It was a giant oversight right in the base of the game. I have NO idea how it got into a game that wanted competitive pvp.

Crit is bad enough. rng. Crit damage breaks competative pvp entirely.

conditions in pve and wvw are terrible. just terrible.
the issues with stacking in team play is just ONE of the problems.

Its lack of scaling is also a giant problem.

direct damage scales with crit, power, crit damage, vulnerability, weapon damage and % damage modifiers.

condition damage scales with duration at whole number intervals, levels,and condition damage.
The only pro is condition damage is not effected by armor/toughness. however, it needs to be noted power scales faster then toughness.

6 effective scaling factors, vs 2 for conditions.
And 25% damage increase with vul, and % modifiers that go from 5%-40% just makes direct damage obliterate conditions.
% modifiers are multiplicative. Things like sigil of force with 5% damage buff? that only effects direct damage. and its 5% after all other modifiers.
So lets say you have a bow trait that increases your bow damage 10%. and you had 1000 damage prior to either. 1000×10%=1100, then 1100×5% for 1155. 1155 is not 15% more then 1000 its 15.5%. Look at your professions traits, and gear options. and add them all up. This adds up fast in many cases, and leaves conditions far behind.

spvp.
conditions work better here, only because min/max gear is limited.
Zerkers is honestly old news. Assassins should be the dps king. people haven’t jumped onto that train yet for some reason. but its also not an spvp option.
In pve/wvw, you can get 60% crit, 70% crit damage. Between gear, runes, food, oils, etc.
Add fury on top of that…
No amount of condition gear can compete with that kind of dps.
Those are NOT figures you can achieve in spvp however.
no food, no oils, no ascended gear, no min/maxed zerker/assassins.
Mathematically conditions are still inferior, but human error, and just in general playing by feel and not actually testing optimum strategies lets conditions work out well enough.

I believe Anet flat out doesn’t know what to do with conditions so they choose to do nothing in fear of breaking something. The whole point of damage over time is that you are trading instant damage for slower + more overall damage over time. In GW2 zerkers have both the highest instant damage and highest overall dps, that is problem. Lets get this thread more posts, Anet needs to realize that.

Cyclonite.5786:

I believe Anet flat out doesn’t know what to do with conditions so they choose to do nothing in fear of breaking something. The whole point of damage over time is that you are trading instant damage for slower + more overall damage over time. In GW2 zerkers have both the highest instant damage and highest overall dps, that is problem. Lets get this thread more posts, Anet needs to realize that.

Judging by the lack of a response even after one was promised, I’m starting to think that’s the case.

Yeah, it really smells like a fundamental design flaw. The whole idea of ramping up bleeds is just broken. Because it doesn’t scale. If they increased the cap to 50 or even 100 it would put too much load on the server for all the calculations.

It also feels wrong from a players PoV. Why oh why do I have to ramp up my bleed stack just to get at least some DPS? DoTs are already slow and easy to counter with cleanses. Why punish condition users even more with this ramp-up thing? Why not just throw ONE bleed DoT at the mob and be done with it?

This is how every other MMO out there does it. And for many good reasons. It’s more satisfying for the user and it requires less computing power on the server. I fail to see one single advantage of the current bleed system.

Let’s get some critical bleeds that do 50% damage on crit, baseline, and ignore crit damage modifiers

How would critical bleeds help with bleed cap, though?

Thinking positively, they’ll probably address this issue in their collaborative development topics. Hopefully. If they just ignore this elephant in the room, it’ll be really telling of where this game’s PvE is heading.

16407 views and not even a dev post or anything….. meanwhile they are talking about better communication in other threads and how they are listening

Well this problem alienates the largest % of your players over any other problem in shear numbers…. really at this point I am down and out shocked.

Smh

If they aren’t going to do any major overhauling critical bleeds will at least make the few bleeds you do land more significant. Especially in smaller groups. I know this problem is tailored more to large content but I’m just throwing ideas out

The addition of toxin may be a glimmer of hope for condition users. But more than likely it will be a NPC only condition just to slap us in the face.

Yes I don’t think they will give players this condition, at least not yet. It’s too bad because I bet it will work like GW1 ‘Disease’ which was my favorite DoT in any game I’ve played.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

The addition of toxin may be a glimmer of hope for condition users. But more than likely it will be a NPC only condition just to slap us in the face.

I’m pretty sure that’s krait-only.

They also haven’t fully leveraged torment yet. So if alternate conditions are how they want to address the bleed cap — and I don’t agree with that approach, considering torment can also be capped at 25 — then ArenaNet should start with torment.

Nothing in the current patch.

yeah, so nothing on this topic in the current patch and not a word from devs yet.

Normalize the behavior of conditions first. Make them all stack in intensity or all stack in duration. I don’t see why it is such a tragedy that bleeds cannot stack past 25 when few people seem to care that burning and poison only stack in duration.

Not only was the toxin condition a disappointment, but Anet went the extra mile to screw us over once again.

They added the downed state to PvE mobs now. This is another slap in the face to condition users since now PvE enemies are cleansed of ALL conditions upon being downed, which means direct damage is capable of killing these enemies faster. To make it worse, if enemies recover they are AGAIN cleansed of all conditions.

ATMAvatar.5749:

Normalize the behavior of conditions first. Make them all stack in intensity or all stack in duration. I don’t see why it is such a tragedy that bleeds cannot stack past 25 when few people seem to care that burning and poison only stack in duration.

Absolutely. They need to fix the stacking cap as well as the duration problem.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Not only was the toxin condition a disappointment, but Anet went the extra mile to screw us over once again.

They added the downed state to PvE mobs now. This is another slap in the face to condition users since now PvE enemies are cleansed of ALL conditions upon being downed, which means direct damage is capable of killing these enemies faster. To make it worse, if enemies recover they are AGAIN cleansed of all conditions.

That’s a good point.

With all the talk about balance recently, it seems this issue isn’t even on ArenaNet’s radar anymore.

Lopez.7369:

Ulari.9547:

Lopez.7369:

On the bright side, Chris Whiteside said in another thread that he’ll give a response about condition builds in PvE. I hope that happens soon.

Condition damage is an issue in PvE, WvW, and PvP since two characters can easily hit the cap in in any environment (for bleeds and also for burning). Designing a solution that only affects one environment (PvE) is not what we want/need.

I would like to imagine that PvP teams could field two or three condition characters to burst down high toughness targets. It may not be ‘the best’, but it would be a build option. Right now the condition cap make this idea impossible/stupid.

Ulari

As a top 100 PvP player, I can confidently say that you are wrong. Unlike PvE, players in PvP and world vs. world have so much condition cleansing that one, two, three or even four players can’t maintain 25 stacks of bleeding. That’s why raising the bleed cap would have absolutely no effect outside of PvE.

Fair enough. I am not a top 100 PvP player, so I can easily agree with your comment on not being able to hit 25 stacks of bleeding in PvP. But, I do play WvW and I do see targets with 25 stacks of bleeding on them (or more commonly, one stack of burning <g>).

Even agreeing with you… I’d prefer to see the ‘fix’ for condition damage applied to PvE, WvW, and PvP. Better to have the same basic rule set in place in all three environments.

And based on your comments… if the fix was something that allowed players to always fit their condition damage on a target (pretend the cap applies per attacker rather than target), there would be no effect in PvP, it would greatly help PvE, and may or may not affect WvW.

Ulari

Lopez.7369:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Not only was the toxin condition a disappointment, but Anet went the extra mile to screw us over once again.

They added the downed state to PvE mobs now. This is another slap in the face to condition users since now PvE enemies are cleansed of ALL conditions upon being downed, which means direct damage is capable of killing these enemies faster. To make it worse, if enemies recover they are AGAIN cleansed of all conditions.

That’s a good point.

With all the talk about balance recently, it seems this issue isn’t even on ArenaNet’s radar anymore.

And… how can they possibly balance professions when every condition build has issues playing in a group?

They should fix condition damage stacking then balance.
If they balance first, then fix condition stacking… any balance they implemented could very easily be ‘wrong’ since their fix for conditions is probably going to be a significant change.

Ulari

Yeah. The net result is no impact in PvP, minimal effect in WvW and hugely beneficial in PvE.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Dec-10th-Balance-Preview/page/26#post3149078
I have posted the urgency of Condition vs Power builds within PvE on that topic. Hopefully they agree that the imbalance has a great impact for build diversity in PvE.

^
I don’t think they care about pve balance anymore? That preview is all aimed for pvp.

I’ll be asking about this issue in the balance threads. Hopefully someone responds.

Lopez.7369:

I’ll be asking about this issue in the balance threads. Hopefully someone responds.

I brought it up as well. I will continue to do so until a response is issued.

If the statement from ArenaNet is to be believed, the problem lies in the fact that the server has to track all the boon/condition stacks separately. The 25 stacks cap is to avoid performance issue.

As a temporary fix, I propose condensing all bleeds for PvE into single stacks for skills. That way, more players can take advantage of bleeds before the cap. If you take Eruption for example, that skill causes 6 stacks. The damage could be condensed into a single bleed stack and suddenly, 6 more players can cast eruption. While it wouldn’t solve things for huge zergs, it’d still be nice for dungeons because even as a party, you’d be unlikely to reach te cap.

All damage would remain the same of course. The only thing that would change is the server load.

The only thing I can think of, which I’m not sure if it’s even doable, is to make conditions tick faster. That way, stacks go down quicker, and damages enemies faster, allowing new stacks to be put up? While it might work for small teams, it doesn’t solve world events though, haha.

18,000+ views for this thread and no response from ANet.
The jokes that that they will still be looking into condition damage in 2017 are starting to feel less like jokes.

I and many others called out condition damage as something that needs to be addressed in the Collaborative Development topic.
Many other people called out Class Balance… and I maintain that the condition damage system must be fixed before classes can be balanced. Otherwise we will all have to endure the very real risk that professions are balanced, and then the condition system is changed, and the change breaks the balance. Seems so simple that the systems must be finalized before you build on them.

More than a year waiting for Anet to address the condition issues (yes, they acknowledged there were issues back in October 2012).

Ulari <— Frustrated

At this point I have to assume they’re purposely avoiding this thread.

Lopez.7369:

At this point I have to assume they’re purposely avoiding this thread.

Probably.

I mean, what do you want them to say? Lie and say, “We’ve got a solution in the pipeline?” Tell you “we’re still looking into it?” What really CAN be said?

Condition damage needs a complete and total overhaul, both in how they are calcuated and how they are applied. Traits pertaining to conditions and skills that have them as effects would have to be altered and rebalanced, cleanses would need to be looked at for the same reason.

There’s no quick fix here. I’m not even sure there’s an effective band-aid.

Jon Peters said they want to make control and condition builds viable in PvE. That’s something, right?

For the love of god just bring back hexes, lol.

Lopez.7369:

At this point I have to assume they’re purposely avoiding this thread.

I would be ok with, “We just can’t fix it”.