Guild Wars 2

It’s an old topic I’ve seen every once in a while but it does need to happen. There needs to be more options for reducing damage from the insane amount of conditions flying around, preferably built into something like toughness or vitality. Although vitality isn’t the ideal choice since it would just involve a larger health pool to heal.

Things like the occasional trait for classes like Engineer and light auras aren’t anywhere near enough. Path of Fire is also introducing more classes that can further add to the condition spam means we need more ways of reducing damage from conditions instead of clearing them and having them come back within a few seconds.

In my opinion toughness needs to be the be-all end-all for anything reducing damage/condition duration so it could be tied to that. It honestly doesn’t make much sense that a berserker and a knights statted character die at the same rate to conditions but not at the same rate when it comes to direct damage. its also really doesn’t make much sense either that there are PVE enemies with high armor but they absolutely melt to conditions.

TL:DR
Toughness needs to reduce condition damage as well. There are far too few ways of effectively reducing condition damage and all it does is promote condition spam and Anet will build off of it in future expansions thinking everyone only plays condition builds.

you have cleanses, resistance, vitality and heals, sigils to remove conditions, rune of the trooper if needed, finishers in light fields… and probably some more… you can have it cleansed by others, amd duration reductions even if they have been nerfed as well

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

you have cleanses, resistance, vitality and heals, sigils to remove conditions, rune of the trooper if needed, finishers in light fields… and probably some more… you can have it cleansed by others,

As a solo-player, you dont have acess to all of these possebilities to get rid of conditions.
Even in an organized group of four or five is it impossible to stand against the massive amount of conditions.

So, I agree with the OP, we need more ways to handle conditions
(I would prefer a major change to toughness so that it decreases overall damage )

edit: solved grammar-issues

Lol people saying Vitality is Condi damage mitigation, mitigation means reducing FYI. Shows us where vitality reduces Condi damage.

And let’s not forget all the ways Physical damage is reduced vs how many condi has.

Let’s see.

Protection
Frost Aura
Bulwark gyro
Rite of Great Dwarf passive and active party wide
Toughness/Armor
Runes/foods
Weakness
endure Pain passive and active
Signet of Stone passive and active
Rise
Invulns on multiple classes both passive and active one can be shared party wide

All of which can be stacked in most cases.

Majority of Which are passive

Condis mitigation
Are cleanses
Resistance only a few classes have access to it (which can be stripped/corrupted by Meta Builds/off Meta builds that are the main classes that run Condi)
Two traits one on each of two classes actually reduce Condi damage.
Runes that remove condis on specific skill type uses
Sigils that remove Condi.

And let’s not forget in one gamemode Condis only effectively use one stat to achieve damage maximum damage and no sacrifices in passive defenses while the other requires 3 offensive stats with sacrifices to passive defense to do comparable damage.

Sly.9518:

Lol people saying Vitality is Condi damage mitigation, mitigation means reducing FYI. Shows us where vitality reduces Condi damage.

Just like toughness, it make you survive longer. Same effect. If you have 100 hp and someone do 20 dps give or take, you survive 5 seconds. If you have 140 hp, you survive 7 seconds. Not too complicated.

Dawdler.8521:

Sly.9518:

Lol people saying Vitality is Condi damage mitigation, mitigation means reducing FYI. Shows us where vitality reduces Condi damage.

Just like toughness, it make you survive longer. Same effect. If you have 100 hp and someone do 20 dps give or take, you survive 5 seconds. If you have 140 hp, you survive 7 seconds. Not too complicated.

And then you realize that vitality has the same effect on power damage and your point of vit being great for condis becomes moot.

Azoqu.8917:

Dawdler.8521:

Sly.9518:

Lol people saying Vitality is Condi damage mitigation, mitigation means reducing FYI. Shows us where vitality reduces Condi damage.

Just like toughness, it make you survive longer. Same effect. If you have 100 hp and someone do 20 dps give or take, you survive 5 seconds. If you have 140 hp, you survive 7 seconds. Not too complicated.

And then you realize that vitality has the same effect on power damage and your point of vit being great for condis becomes moot.

The only thing I realize is that make no sense. That vitality helps against power as well doesnt exclude the fact it helps against condi.

Azoqu.8917:

Dawdler.8521:

Sly.9518:

Lol people saying Vitality is Condi damage mitigation, mitigation means reducing FYI. Shows us where vitality reduces Condi damage.

Just like toughness, it make you survive longer. Same effect. If you have 100 hp and someone do 20 dps give or take, you survive 5 seconds. If you have 140 hp, you survive 7 seconds. Not too complicated.

And then you realize that vitality has the same effect on power damage and your point of vit being great for condis becomes moot.

You might want to reread his post.

At no point does he say or imply that vitality does not contribute to TTL vs both power and condi damage.
————————

(This part not directed at you Azoqu) As to a point raised earlier….the best condi damage builds do NOT rely on a single stat. I think that some tuning to balance condition damage might be in order, but the amount of misinformation being presented as fact (or misrepresented) is a bit off.

At this point in the game, I think it’s time we started treating conditions as almost on par as power. Remember, when this game launch, conditions were limited to 25 stacks, and only two of the damage conditions, bleeding and confusion, were able to be stacked at all. Confusion also only proc’d on skill usage instead doing both overtime damage and proc’s as well. In addition, might granted only power.

Toughness should reduce condition damage as much as does it power damage. Ironically enough, there is a new soulbeast trait which causes protection to reduce incoming condition damage by 33%. This is something that I think should be baseline in the game right now.

But if such changes were to come about, then cleanses would have to take a beating where appropriate.

Food for thought, if there were a Dire amulet in PvP, then you know it would be meta for possibly every class.

Dawdler.8521:

Sly.9518:

Lol people saying Vitality is Condi damage mitigation, mitigation means reducing FYI. Shows us where vitality reduces Condi damage.

Just like toughness, it make you survive longer. Same effect. If you have 100 hp and someone do 20 dps give or take, you survive 5 seconds. If you have 140 hp, you survive 7 seconds. Not too complicated.

While I don’t like the OPs suggestion, because condition damage is supposed to be the anti-tank damage type, I’m still going to correct you because you’re completely BSing here.

Mitigation is not a direct synonym of reduction, mitigation is specifically reduction of severity, in this case, reduction of the severity of enemy damage. And by that definition, health is not damage reduction, as you are taking the exact same amount of damage no matter the amount of health you have.

Health is an increase in survivability, but not through damage mitigation.

Furthermore, it is an equal increase in survivability against all damage sources, power and condition damage alike.

And that clearly illustrates there is a stat source to increase survivability and mitigate enemy dps when it comes to defending against power damage, but there is only the option to increase survivability against condition damage; giving condition damage a clear advantage.

Arzurag.7506:

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

you have cleanses, resistance, vitality and heals, sigils to remove conditions, rune of the trooper if needed, finishers in light fields… and probably some more… you can have it cleansed by others,

As a solo-player, you dont have acess to all of these possebilities to get rid of conditions.
Even in an organized group of four or five is it impossible to stand against the massive amount of conditions.

So, I agree with the OP, we need more ways to handle conditions
(I would prefer a major change to toughness so that it decreases overall damage )

edit: solved grammar-issues

If you are a solo player than one of two conditions are true.

You meet an enemy one on one. If you have enough condtion cleanses to deal with all the conditions that other player can throw at you, than there no way a condition build could ever kill you. You SHOULD be losing vitality. A condition cleanse is not intended to prevent all condition damage. The purpose is to mitigate it long enough so as to allow you to use your own damage to down the enemy first.

The second condition is you are outnumbered. If you are outnumbered you should never expect to have enough condtion cleanses to deal with a pair of enemy especially if they both condition builds.

Soilder.3607:

At this point in the game, I think it’s time we started treating conditions as almost on par as power. Remember, when this game launch, conditions were limited to 25 stacks, and only two of the damage conditions, bleeding and confusion, were able to be stacked at all. Confusion also only proc’d on skill usage instead doing both overtime damage and proc’s as well. In addition, might granted only power.

Toughness should reduce condition damage as much as does it power damage. Ironically enough, there is a new soulbeast trait which causes protection to reduce incoming condition damage by 33%. This is something that I think should be baseline in the game right now.

But if such changes were to come about, then cleanses would have to take a beating where appropriate.

Food for thought, if there were a Dire amulet in PvP, then you know it would be meta for possibly every class.

Dire would NOT be meta for every class simply because Dire implies a Condition build and toughness does nothing to prevent Condition damage. The reason people wear DIRE is to deal with power opponents. No power builds used, no reason for dire.

This just another reason why making toughness mitigate condtions a BAD idea because THAT would result in more people using Dire because it would be able to deal with condition damage and power damage equally.

Dawdler.8521:

Sly.9518:

Lol people saying Vitality is Condi damage mitigation, mitigation means reducing FYI. Shows us where vitality reduces Condi damage.

Just like toughness, it make you survive longer. Same effect. If you have 100 hp and someone do 20 dps give or take, you survive 5 seconds. If you have 140 hp, you survive 7 seconds. Not too complicated.

Again it does not mitigate damage.

babazhook.6805:

Arzurag.7506:

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

you have cleanses, resistance, vitality and heals, sigils to remove conditions, rune of the trooper if needed, finishers in light fields… and probably some more… you can have it cleansed by others,

As a solo-player, you dont have acess to all of these possebilities to get rid of conditions.
Even in an organized group of four or five is it impossible to stand against the massive amount of conditions.

So, I agree with the OP, we need more ways to handle conditions
(I would prefer a major change to toughness so that it decreases overall damage )

edit: solved grammar-issues

If you are a solo player than one of two conditions are true.

You meet an enemy one on one. If you have enough condtion cleanses to deal with all the conditions that other player can throw at you, than there no way a condition build could ever kill you. You SHOULD be losing vitality. A condition cleanse is not intended to prevent all condition damage. The purpose is to mitigate it long enough so as to allow you to use your own damage to down the enemy first.

The second condition is you are outnumbered. If you are outnumbered you should never expect to have enough condtion cleanses to deal with a pair of enemy especially if they both condition builds.

Unfortunately, my opinion is biased af so I can´t give an objective answer.
You´re right, I shouldn´t be able to get rid off all conditions but I should be able to survive with pretty tanky stats more than a few seconds against condition builds.
Mostly, the class that uses that kind of build dishes out massive conditions and goes invisible, invincible or out of range. Very annoying.

What am I even talking about ? The main point of my post was to add a suggestion to handle the condi-issue.

Arzurag.7506:

Mostly, the class that uses that kind of build dishes out massive conditions and goes invisible, invincible or out of range. Very annoying.

The only fair condi build, imo, is burn Guardian. It has 1 damaging condition and very few covers (unless they throw on sigils/runes, thus distracting from their main focus). Every other condition class just looks at you and you instantly have 6 different conditions, with all of the damaging conditions being at relatively high damage numbers, so even if you cleanse 5 conditions, you still have a very damaging condition left on you. Meanwhile against burn guard you just have to cleanse the burn, it doesn’t matter if it was at 50 stacks of burn if you manage to cleanse it before it ticks.

Arzurag.7506:

babazhook.6805:

Arzurag.7506:

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

you have cleanses, resistance, vitality and heals, sigils to remove conditions, rune of the trooper if needed, finishers in light fields… and probably some more… you can have it cleansed by others,

As a solo-player, you dont have acess to all of these possebilities to get rid of conditions.
Even in an organized group of four or five is it impossible to stand against the massive amount of conditions.

So, I agree with the OP, we need more ways to handle conditions
(I would prefer a major change to toughness so that it decreases overall damage )

edit: solved grammar-issues

If you are a solo player than one of two conditions are true.

You meet an enemy one on one. If you have enough condtion cleanses to deal with all the conditions that other player can throw at you, than there no way a condition build could ever kill you. You SHOULD be losing vitality. A condition cleanse is not intended to prevent all condition damage. The purpose is to mitigate it long enough so as to allow you to use your own damage to down the enemy first.

The second condition is you are outnumbered. If you are outnumbered you should never expect to have enough condtion cleanses to deal with a pair of enemy especially if they both condition builds.

Unfortunately, my opinion is biased af so I can´t give an objective answer.
You´re right, I shouldn´t be able to get rid off all conditions but I should be able to survive with pretty tanky stats more than a few seconds against condition builds.
Mostly, the class that uses that kind of build dishes out massive conditions and goes invisible, invincible or out of range. Very annoying.

What am I even talking about ? The main point of my post was to add a suggestion to handle the condi-issue.

Well the tanky stats that might do against a Power build are not the same tanky stats to count on when you face a condition build which is as it should be.

Your tanking versus conditions is in fact those cleanses. The more you have the “tankier” you are. Obviously the more cleanses you take the less utitlity you have when dealing with other build types so it also a balancing act.

I play a multitude of thief types, mostly power and each with a different mix of condition cleanses. If I am on the build that is specced with the greatest amoung of cleanses I can do very well against most of those condition builds through a combination of avoidance and cleanse.

If I am on one of those with lesser cleanses it becomes more and more avoidance thus more difficult. While it true there may be specific builds or traits that are overtuned when it comes to condtion builds, this balancing act is part of what makes the game interesting.

A “Stat” that mitigates damage from conditions outright is just a one size fits all type mechanism which is not necessarily good for the game. It akin to all those passives that kick in with no input from the player and "save him’.

Along with others, it my feeling there a sort of arms race going on here and a type of Catch 22. People demand more cleanses in order to deal with condtions. These are added making the window to apply conditions and effect damage ever narrower. As these windows to apply that damage narrow it becomes more necessary to BURST conditions wherein many go on
at once to take advantage of the time with no cleanses.

This leads to higher condition ticks over shorter periods of time and the claim “there not enough cleanses”.

To add to my former post:

You have:

• cleanses,
• resistance,
• vitality and heals, (increases window)
• sigils to remove conditions, (purity/generosity, cleansing)
• rune of the trooper
• finishers in light fields…
• you can have it cleansed by others,
• add duration reductions (Food / runes)

Well there is allways:

• blinds,
• aegis,
• dodges,
• terrain,
• blocks,

• reflects, and projectile negators vs quite some condi’s these will work vs any (ranged) attack..

• Then there is stuns/fears/slows/chills and other incapaciating options to lengthen your window of DPS vs the condi’s creator

• Use pets/summons and such to bodyblock.
• Use weakness to avoid conditions on crits
• Use spells to convert debuffs to boons….
• Send ’m back….

SO…. having a stat is easy mode…

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

you have cleanses, resistance, vitality and heals, sigils to remove conditions, rune of the trooper if needed, finishers in light fields… and probably some more… you can have it cleansed by others, amd duration reductions even if they have been nerfed as well

Those cannot keep up with how easily it is to spam and re-apply conditions and if the demo weekend was any indication it’s only going to get worse in sPvP.

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

Well there is allways blinds, aegis, dodges, reflects, terrain, blocks and projectile negators vs quite some condi’s these will work vs any (ranged) attack..

Then there is stuns/fears/slows/chills and other incapaciating options to lengthen your window of DPS vs the condi’s

Use pets/summons/ and such to bodyblock.
Use weakness to avoid conditions on crits
Use spells to convert debuffs to boons….
Send ’m back….

SO…. having a stat is easy mode…

All of those work on Power as well /gg

So again Power has so many more damage mitigators vs condi

You act as though there aren’t skills hat completely reduce Power to zero.
On top of having passives stats.

Which ones easy mode? Also Condi damage doesn’t have to sacrifice defenses to maximize its damage output so yeah……

And only a few classes need precision to provide Condis the rest don’t.
/gg

It’s not like classes can’t load people with Condies then go into defensive rotations while their Condis tick away or cc spam them while their Condi bomb ticks away.

And on top of that the main classes running Condi can Burst Condi and kill people in a couple of seconds such Damage over Time. Lulz

This is coming from someone that uses Condi and power over multiple classes

Conditions have proliferated to the point that I think there should probably be a stat controlling resistance to it, really, and it should probably be separate from both toughness and vitality.

Maybe they should find a way to combine it with agony resistance. It’s sort of lame having an entire stat only devoted to reducing a very particular type of damage found in only one part of the game.

It’s not about the numbers… When talking about numbers:

Resistance is a FULL removal of -ALL- condi dmg during it’s uptime….
This means 0 dmg like invulnerability on a boon which can be shared…. and lengthened…..
You can say protection is the same. but no… it isn’t!
Protection still leaves opportunity to dmg.

Cleanses can remove stacks. So they do not remove a damaging condition but the full stack…. on some builds having only 1-2 conditions it means dmg capability is completely reset or in some cases fully compromized… Damage is prioritized!

The only things, ppl are really mad off, tend to be engineer, mesmer, ranger, revenant, thief and may be necro… the other classes have a limited set of conditions to their disposal.

In this list especially mesmer and revenant tend to be dangerous due to torment and confusion allowing shutdown. no movement and no skills …. poison destorys healing, but is less dangerous then other conditions.

Ele (fire/bleeds), warrior (mostly fire and bleeds (occasionally a little confusion or torment)), guardian (fire)…. are easily defeated or negated when using condi’s

And still necro can cleanse condi’s easily, use ‘m spread ’m…. it’s the only truly dangerous condi user in theory.

Other classes with light fields?
-chrono, mesmer
-GUARDIAN… if needed -permanently- on hammer
-revenant
-engineer
-ranger/druid
-necro

Oh and cleanses have been buffed recently; often doubling their effectiveness, or better….

A separate stat for condition damage might be the best option but the last thing we need is for power/tank builds to have to sacrifice or weaken toughness or vitality in order to reduce condition damage. Honestly I would still take a condition damage reduction stat over toughness merely because a dodge roll/block/invuln/whatever can avoid massive hits but avoiding a barrage of auto attacks from a ranger’s shortbow or necro’s scepter is nigh impossible.

Going further into those two classes, as well as any class that applies a condition as part of its auto attack, there’s no real defensible way to deal with the constant spam. Either waste half your skills curing conditions that’ll be reapplied by someone standing there pressing 1 or save them to cleanse a bulk of them but you’ve taken the damage while waiting. It makes no real sense that the defender has to blow a ton of skills that are on long cooldowns to remove conditions from an auto attach chain.

Another thread about how because conditions do as much damage as power builds they need to be nerfed. Honestly its starting to get old.

This was the only game of its type on the market where DoTs were not viable as a primary source of damage and now they are. Trust me, you do not want them nerfed! Other games have attempted this and it always leads to out-of-control tanking; thats why DoTs exist in games to begin with.

They are literally meant to keep people from surviving. Because despite the stereotype that everyone likes to DPS, history shows that most players actually prefer to become unkillable tanks, especially in PvP environments.

in fact, before condis were fixed, this was a major problem in PvP. Bunker builds pretty much ruled both PvP and WvW game modes.

Now people actually die, and the game is better for it.

Einlanzer.1627:

Maybe they should find a way to combine it with agony resistance. It’s sort of lame having an entire stat only devoted to reducing a very particular type of damage found in only one part of the game.

Although despite my reservations I could get behind an idea like this, if only to add more dynamics to the build types available to players.

Adding my suggestions to the idea pool:

• Vitality. Several things could be done here. I’d perscibe all of the folowing. Make vitality a closer counter for expertise, lowering condi duration as well as having barrier take 25% less damage from condis while you have it.

• Precision. I personally do not like the stat as there ar better opportunity costs replacements (forced crits and flat crit chance bonuses). To make this stat more inticing, give the stat a % chance to half all condi damage for a tic starting at 0% without invested precision. Call it a saving throw. Also, make cripple condi the equivalent of weakness (decreasing your chance at a saving throw by 50%). Conceptually, precision could be your keen eye to strike at critical locations while also minimalising necessary movement to make such actions, decreasing the chance of opening your wounds to bleed out faster, damaging yourself in confusion less critical, fanning flames on you less, ect.

• Trait and utility cleansing could be designed to prioritize damaging conditions. Like if a utility skill removes 3 condis, it could be changed to remove 1 damaging condi + 2 others (or if you dont have a damaging condi, remove 3 other). Purging flames can remove poison first before removing any others. Water type cleansing could remove burning before other condis. Ect.

You want both of the damage types to be on equivalent terms? Sure, let’s allow for toughness/armor to reduce the damage. But only when we at the same time allow condi damage to crit and be increased by Ferocity (and damage instantly, instead of having to wait few seconds to see whether the opponent won’t cleanse all of it).

If you don’t want that, admit that you’re not interested in damage type equality at all, and all you want is a condi damage nerf (because you can’t deal with it yourself).

Astralporing.1957:

You want both of the damage types to be on equivalent terms? Sure, let’s allow for toughness/armor to reduce the damage. But only when we at the same time allow condi damage to crit and be increased by Ferocity (and damage instantly, instead of having to wait few seconds to see whether the opponent won’t cleanse all of it).

If you don’t want that, admit that you’re not interested in damage type equality at all, and all you want is a condi damage nerf (because you can’t deal with it yourself).

Honestly, I’d say if you’re going to be biased, at least admit to being so. I’m personally biased toward power damage but I do enjoy playing condi as well and I can tell you each have advantages.

If we’re going to speak about equality (and you’re not going to get perfect equality for anything, afaik) then you have to take into consideration all the advantages and disadvantages. You say condi doesn’t have the advantage to crit, well power doesn’t have the advantage of duration. You say condi has the disadvantage of being cleansed, well power has the disadvantage of fumble. Condi has other advantages too, like the magnification you can get from traits that proc condis on many different things but there really is no equivalent for power damage (just procing more damage just because). There are some instances, like popping aegis doing damage or ripping boons doing damage or disabling foes doing damage but it’s not as prevalent as condis, imo. Then there’s the fact you can just bomb a lot of condis on something and just peace out while the victim DoTs to death.

I personally wouldn’t want condi and power to be completely equal because that would likely require them to be the same. But each should have their drawbacks and strengths.

Historically Condition Damage did not need to be mitigated because it had no stacks and there was only few different condis available, which meant you could easily wipe everything without taking much damage. The reasons why it was changed could be read here:
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/combat-changes-dotsanddashes/

Over time they have added quite a lot new condis and also replaced confusion and torment from their original idea of popping at skill activation or movement with common DoT. Also pretty much every skill these days applies some sort of condition beside the original damage. I do feel the original idea of having only few condis that you could easily get rid of has been lost and some sort of new way to reduce damage you take from condis might be good idea.

Not saying it should be toughness, as it could end up “must” stat for everyone, reducing number of playable builds.

Or many skills/traits could just be reworked so they also remove condis with equal rate these get applied on you.

And finally, I do believe there is no need to have so many different condi damage types that are all basically just DoTs. Confusion, torment, poison, bleeding and burning are all same thing with different icons that fill up your screen.

Another idea that came to mind:

• Regeneration is very overlooked. It doesn’t do too much outside of healing builds and even in healing builds, it’s only a modest supplement. Why not allow Regen some synergy with condi protection like giving you a flat -33% condition duration or coupled with my idea for Precision/Saving Throw, make Regen the equivalent of Fury but adds a +20% chance of Saving Throw (halving the damage of all condi for a tic).

Leo G.4501:

You say condi doesn’t have the advantage to crit, well power doesn’t have the advantage of duration.

Having all the damage be applied over time instead of at once is not an advantage. Duration just gives your opponent more time to do something about it.

Leo G.4501:

Then there’s the fact you can just bomb a lot of condis on something and just peace out while the victim DoTs to death.

or you can just burst someone with power and have him dead right there, no need to wait.

Astralporing.1957:

Leo G.4501:

You say condi doesn’t have the advantage to crit, well power doesn’t have the advantage of duration.

Having all the damage be applied over time instead of at once is not an advantage. Duration just gives your opponent more time to do something about it.

Not if you’re CC’ed or out of range or your opponent is stealthed or invulned.

Astralporing.1957:

Leo G.4501:

Then there’s the fact you can just bomb a lot of condis on something and just peace out while the victim DoTs to death.

or you can just burst someone with power and have him dead right there, no need to wait.

In a perfect world where the opponent doesn’t move or dodge or block or use boons or apply conditions and your attacks have infinite range and always crit and you’re immortal so you never have to use dodges or heals or cleanses or CCs and you just whale on people with attacks all day…maybe.

Leo G.4501:

Astralporing.1957:

Leo G.4501:

You say condi doesn’t have the advantage to crit, well power doesn’t have the advantage of duration.

Having all the damage be applied over time instead of at once is not an advantage. Duration just gives your opponent more time to do something about it.

Not if you’re CC’ed or out of range or your opponent is stealthed or invulned.

Astralporing.1957:

Leo G.4501:

Then there’s the fact you can just bomb a lot of condis on something and just peace out while the victim DoTs to death.

or you can just burst someone with power and have him dead right there, no need to wait.

In a perfect world where the opponent doesn’t move or dodge or block or use boons or apply conditions and your attacks have infinite range and always crit and you’re immortal so you never have to use dodges or heals or cleanses or CCs and you just whale on people with attacks all day…maybe.

That same braindead nonsense also applies to condi as well.

Catastro.8410:

Leo G.4501:

Astralporing.1957:

Leo G.4501:

You say condi doesn’t have the advantage to crit, well power doesn’t have the advantage of duration.

Having all the damage be applied over time instead of at once is not an advantage. Duration just gives your opponent more time to do something about it.

Not if you’re CC’ed or out of range or your opponent is stealthed or invulned.

Astralporing.1957:

Leo G.4501:

Then there’s the fact you can just bomb a lot of condis on something and just peace out while the victim DoTs to death.

or you can just burst someone with power and have him dead right there, no need to wait.

In a perfect world where the opponent doesn’t move or dodge or block or use boons or apply conditions and your attacks have infinite range and always crit and you’re immortal so you never have to use dodges or heals or cleanses or CCs and you just whale on people with attacks all day…maybe.

That same braindead nonsense also applies to condi as well.

But you can do damage to foes that are dodging or blocking or out of range with condis. If you apply the condis first.

Look, you can’t win this argument. It’s just not going to happen lol.

Leo G.4501:

But you can do damage to foes that are dodging or blocking or out of range with condis. If you apply the condis first.

You can also do damage to foes that are dodging, or blocking, or out of range with power damage too. If you hit them first.

In both cases you need to hit someone first. It’s just that in case of power damage, that’s all you need – the damage is already applied and done then. In case of condis however, you also need to wait for the condis to tick – the damage is not caused immediately, but only later. Which gives the attacked person additional time to react.

You may think that condi damage is some easymode, apply and forget, no effort needed, but only because you completely skip over that “apply” part.

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

you have cleanses, resistance, vitality and heals, sigils to remove conditions, rune of the trooper if needed, finishers in light fields… and probably some more… you can have it cleansed by others, amd duration reductions even if they have been nerfed as well

not really rational

Why? the simple reason is that Condition you just cleansed is now automatically restacked via simple applications from your enemy.

Don’t read this wrong- I m a huge user of DoT damage since the Shadowbane days.

However, the mechanisms in place to cleanse vs the mechanisms in place to apply are weighting heavily in favor on the application.

Right now there is a means with proper organization to be immune to conditions an entire fight. This needs to be removed; immunity to conditions needs to be removed completely. There is plenty of condition removable available.

When was the last time OP you saw a means for someone to mitigate all incoming physical damage an entire fight? Where is the balance? If complete condition immunity exists, then therefore condition heavy classes should have access to completely physical damage immunity.. no?

Proper organization can grant 100% immunity to conditions, that is your mitigation. There is no means to my knowledge in this game at all to grant 100% immunity physical damage for the duration of a fight.

Keep in mind, you make toughness reduce damage from conditions you’ve effectively destroyed 2 classes. The reason condition damage became prevalent is because players insisted on tanking themselves up. Condition damage is your bunker buster, live with it. Although I certainly don’t agree for 1 second that 100% up time to condition immunity is fair by any means.

For Punahou, there are cooldowns on condition classes and skills. Very few classes apply conditions effectively with auto-attack. Once the conditions applied and the enemy has cleansed them, the condition caster is left with their pants down, especially when the more damaging ones are on much longer cool down. The re-apply argument doesn’t work. It’s players who refuse to add condition cleans to their skills that are the problem. Most of the time when I apply conditions, they are cleansed within 1-2 seconds, then I’m left with nothing for a period of time. Occasionally I see players let conditions tick on them until their are near death or dead, but it is very very very very rare.

@DeadlySynz What you said about an organized group providing complete immunity to conditions is a problem too. It’s gotten to the point where people have to do things like that merely because conditions are everywhere. Condition cleanses have also been buffed like crazy for the exact same reason so now everything is disproportionate, but it’s still in favor of the attacker instead of the defender.

And for your example for complete immunity for physical damage guardians can provide AOE aegis, mesmers can provide aegis with wells and the trait that shares distortion, the multitude of immunities that almost every class has, vigor for increased dodges, blocks that many classes have, blinds…you get the idea. Reasonable access to direct damage defense is there but that’s not the case involving conditions.

Someone will most definitely say “Sure all of that will work against skills that inflict conditions”. Yes that’s true but think of a viper’s revenant or ranger, or even a condi warrior. You would have to use all of that in order to prevent the wave of conditions from their auto attacks on top of procced conditions from traits then use cleanses in order to remove anything they apply after you’ve run out of defensive options, all the while they’re pinging you with their auto or low cooldown condi skills.

Destroying two classes? That’s also a problem but that’s due to bad balancing. Every class should have access to a power and a condition build and the differences in how they play should be in how the mechanics of the class work.

All I’m proposing is a means of picking and choosing wisely what attacks you and what to block. That can be done against power builds but not conditions. It literally makes no sense that I can stack 20-30 stacks of bleeding on someone as my viper ranger, hitting them for 3k-4k while at a range of 900 and simply keep them at bay or create gaps while they die. And if they cleanse the bleeds, so what? I can reapply them with sharpening stone and auto attacks while they waste skills.

But I sincerely doubt anything will be done about the rampant conditions. People like what’s effective.

If you want Toughness to reduce condition damage then you’d better brace yourself for another wave of bunkers taking over the meta and believe me that’s much worse.

What they need to do is decrease condition damage across the board and have it scale with power and precision (or some other new stat), unlike power condition doesn’t scale with anything meaning you can budget into defensive stats/traits without losing too much. It’s way too safe.

In the case of some clases it’s just plain bad design, condition burst should be a thing, condition pressure should not, right now it’s way easier to apply conditions than it is to remove them, it’s off balance.

Whatever happened to tactical use of conditions? Poison used to be there as a direct counter to healing builds, cripple and immobilize was used to set up combos, right now every freaking ability and trait has multiple conditions attached to it, which in turn forces the devs to add a ludicrous amount of condition removal to offset this, rendering the original purpose of conditions useless.

Astralporing.1957:

Leo G.4501:

But you can do damage to foes that are dodging or blocking or out of range with condis. If you apply the condis first.

You can also do damage to foes that are dodging, or blocking, or out of range with power damage too. If you hit them first.

In both cases you need to hit someone first. It’s just that in case of power damage, that’s all you need – the damage is already applied and done then. In case of condis however, you also need to wait for the condis to tick – the damage is not caused immediately, but only later. Which gives the attacked person additional time to react.

You may think that condi damage is some easymode, apply and forget, no effort needed, but only because you completely skip over that “apply” part.

You’re missing the point of why I even brought it up though. As I said before, power has the advantage of ferocity but condition has the advantage of duration. I.e. power is boosted by ferocity but NOT duration while condition is boosted by duration and NOT ferocity.

I didn’t say condition damage is easy mode, I said each has their advantages and disadvantages.

I’ve actually been thinking about this recently! The common answer to condition damage is vitality since you’ll have more health to burn through, but that line of thought also applies for direct damage too. So, why not take it a step further?

My whole concept was that fully prioritizing vitality would give you a 30% reduction in condition duration to conditions applied to you. This means that a full set of ascended Vitality-main weapons / armor + vitality-main runes / trinkets (2557 vitality) will achieve this.

You can, however, also sacrifice some vitality and use Melandru runes to get above 30% while losing some health, but the choice is really yours.

The formula I came up with for this was
(( [Player Vitality]-1000 ) x ( 30 / (2557 – 1000)))/100

But, paragraphs aside, here is a sheet with different percent calculations for different armor sets (Custom 1 is base vitality with Melandru Runes + Food, Custom 2 is max vit + Melandru Runes + Food).
Also note that Food and Runes can currently (in the game right now) give 45% condition duration reduction.

Shadowwaka.1952:

I’ve actually been thinking about this recently! The common answer to condition damage is vitality since you’ll have more health to burn through, but that line of thought also applies for direct damage too. So, why not take it a step further?

My whole concept was that fully prioritizing vitality would give you a 30% reduction in condition duration to conditions applied to you. This means that a full set of ascended Vitality-main weapons / armor + vitality-main runes / trinkets (2557 vitality) will achieve this.

You can, however, also sacrifice some vitality and use Melandru runes to get above 30% while losing some health, but the choice is really yours.

The formula I came up with for this was
(( [Player Vitality]-1000 ) x ( 30 / (2557 – 1000)))/100

But, paragraphs aside, here is a sheet with different percent calculations for different armor sets (Custom 1 is base vitality with Melandru Runes + Food, Custom 2 is max vit + Melandru Runes + Food).
Also note that Food and Runes can currently (in the game right now) give 45% condition duration reduction.

So how exactly doesnt this vastly empower bunker condi builds forcusing on only toughness, vitality and condition? Do we want condi bunkers to reign supreme, being tough against power and condi damage? Cause this is how you get condi builds. They are the only ones that can focus vitality and still pack a punch.

Dawdler.8521:

Shadowwaka.1952:

I’ve actually been thinking about this recently! The common answer to condition damage is vitality since you’ll have more health to burn through, but that line of thought also applies for direct damage too. So, why not take it a step further?

My whole concept was that fully prioritizing vitality would give you a 30% reduction in condition duration to conditions applied to you. This means that a full set of ascended Vitality-main weapons / armor + vitality-main runes / trinkets (2557 vitality) will achieve this.

You can, however, also sacrifice some vitality and use Melandru runes to get above 30% while losing some health, but the choice is really yours.

The formula I came up with for this was
(( [Player Vitality]-1000 ) x ( 30 / (2557 – 1000)))/100

But, paragraphs aside, here is a sheet with different percent calculations for different armor sets (Custom 1 is base vitality with Melandru Runes + Food, Custom 2 is max vit + Melandru Runes + Food).
Also note that Food and Runes can currently (in the game right now) give 45% condition duration reduction.

So how exactly doesnt this vastly empower bunker condi builds forcusing on only toughness, vitality and condition? Do we want condi bunkers to reign supreme, being tough against power and condi damage? Cause this is how you get condi builds. They are the only ones that can focus vitality and still pack a punch.

Plainly speaking (that is not speaking on special strong meta builds but just in a balance context) they wouldn’t have as strong of duration on their condis making a good counter being someone also decked out in -duration along with cleansing. Or perhaps just a plain power build with cleansing?

My point being, if 2/3 of their stats are defensive, and offense should require 2 stats or more, that should leave a weakness. If it’s not the case, then thats what we’re here to discuss.

Andaras.9317:

Toughness needs to reduce condition damage as well. There are far too few ways of effectively reducing condition damage

Umm… cleanses? Blocks? Evasion?

I mean, the only difference between direct damage and damage over time in regards to defense is:

Direct damage can be reduced by toughness <→ DoTs can be cleansed

That’s it.