Guild Wars 2

Fixing the forum bug

Ayrilana.1396:

Somehow I think that 1 sec bleed was intentional rather than the duration most bleeds last.

5s burn:

5*1.73*0.155*1382 = 1852.917
5*2*0.155*1192 = 1847.6

1852.917 / 1847.6 = 1.002878 (proposed ratio)

You can do it with any length of condition. It does not matter.

It can take upwards of 12 seconds for the switch to happen where Condition Duration gives more damage per second than Condition Damage. And don’t forget that most people don’t attack, wait until the condition goes away and then attack again. Players continuously attack, so any calculation you do needs to account for new stacks being added over the fight.

Please look at the timers of longer boss fights and use times more relevant to those bosses when telling us which is better.

Because I don’t know about everyone else, but I build my characters for the harder fights that last longer. Not the under 10 seconds and dead enemies.

Seera.5916:

It can take upwards of 12 seconds for the switch to happen where Condition Duration gives more damage per second than Condition Damage. And don’t forget that most people don’t attack, wait until the condition goes away and then attack again. Players continuously attack, so any calculation you do needs to account for new stacks being added over the fight.

Please look at the timers of longer boss fights and use times more relevant to those bosses when telling us which is better.

Because I don’t know about everyone else, but I build my characters for the harder fights that last longer. Not the under 10 seconds and dead enemies.

600s burn:

600*1.73*0.155*1382 = 222,349.98
600*2*0.155*1192 = 221,712

222349.98/221712 = 1.00287752 (Ratio / Slope)

600s is 10 minutes. As I said it does not matter.

Hell, 3,600s burn:

3600*1.73*0.155*1382 = 1,334,099.88
3600*2*0.155*1192 = 1,330,272

1334099.88 / 1330272 = 1.002877517 (a more defined slope due to size)

3600s is one hour.

You’re not accounting for having the ability to have more stacks of the condition.

I don’t know about you, but I don’t wait until my 1 bleed is gone to apply another. So please, do calculations based on how people actually play the game. Not to make the numbers fit your conclusion.

Seera.5916:

You’re not accounting for having the ability to have more stacks of the condition.

I don’t know about you, but I don’t wait until my 1 bleed is gone to apply another. So please, do calculations based on how people actually play the game. Not to make the numbers fit your conclusion.

Of course he isn’t because that would mean he’s wrong. People have been trying to get this across to him for like three threads now.

Seera.5916:

You’re not accounting for having the ability to have more stacks of the condition.

I don’t know about you, but I don’t wait until my 1 bleed is gone to apply another. So please, do calculations based on how people actually play the game. Not to make the numbers fit your conclusion.

The condition stacking effect can be measured and graphed as X = Y.

The maximum number of stacks you can have of a condition is equal to the product of that condition’s single stack calculation. They are completely interchangeable.

A bleed that does 100 dmg over 10s does 1,000 damage total.
A bleed that does 100 dmg at ten stacks is worth 1,000 damage.

Further explanation:

Since conditions only tick on the second even applying multiple stacks, such as with an attack that does two stacks of a condition every second or an attack that applies one stack of a condition every half a second follow the same rules. The maximum stacks you can have is always equal to the full value of all stacks applied within the second they are applied.

DGraves.3720:

Seera.5916:

You’re not accounting for having the ability to have more stacks of the condition.

I don’t know about you, but I don’t wait until my 1 bleed is gone to apply another. So please, do calculations based on how people actually play the game. Not to make the numbers fit your conclusion.

The condition stacking effect can be measured and graphed as X = Y.

The maximum number of stacks you can have of a condition is equal to the product of that condition’s single stack calculation. They are completely interchangeable.

A bleed that does 100 dmg over 10s does 1,000 damage total.
A bleed that does 100 dmg at ten stacks is worth 1,000 damage.

Do it using real numbers. Also show where you are getting the 1.73 multiplier that you have used for both burning and bleeds.

In fact, let’s go all out with this so you can prove once and for all that we all are wrong.

• Use Acended Viper Armor/Weapons vs Ascended Sinister Armor/Weapons
• Trinkets are all Ascended Sinister for both with a Ascended Rabid backpack
• Name which runes both will use
• Name which sigils both will use
• Name what food & utility item both will use
• What build is being used for both (traits)

DGraves.3720:

Ayrilana.1396:

Somehow I think that 1 sec bleed was intentional rather than the duration most bleeds last.

5s burn:

5*1.73*0.155*1382 = 1852.917
5*2*0.155*1192 = 1847.6

1852.917 / 1847.6 = 1.002878 (proposed ratio)

You can do it with any length of condition. It does not matter.

That’s not the formula for condition damage, they have a base value that you are conveniently ignoring.

For burning this base value (131.5 at level 80) is a significant part of the total damage.

5(1.73(0.155*1382+131.5)) = 2,990
5(2(0.155*1192+131.5)) = 3,162

Ayrilana.1396:

DGraves.3720:

Seera.5916:

You’re not accounting for having the ability to have more stacks of the condition.

I don’t know about you, but I don’t wait until my 1 bleed is gone to apply another. So please, do calculations based on how people actually play the game. Not to make the numbers fit your conclusion.

The condition stacking effect can be measured and graphed as X = Y.

The maximum number of stacks you can have of a condition is equal to the product of that condition’s single stack calculation. They are completely interchangeable.

A bleed that does 100 dmg over 10s does 1,000 damage total.
A bleed that does 100 dmg at ten stacks is worth 1,000 damage.

Do it using real numbers. Also show where you are getting the 1.73 multiplier that you have used for both burning and bleeds.

( applications per second x base x condition duration x condition damage x coefficient )

One application of burning @ 5s.

Stack Method:

(1 × 5 × 1.73) x 0.155 × 1382 = 1852.92

Simplified: 8.65 × .155 × 1382

Product Method:

1x 5 × 1.73 x (0.155 × 1382) = 1852.92

Simplified: 1 × 5 × 1.73 x 107.105

If applying two in a second:

Stack:

(2 × 5 × 1.73) x 0.155 × 1382 = 3705.83

Simplified: “17.3 × .155 × 1382”

Product:

2 x 5 × 1.73 x (0.155*1382) = 3705.83

Simplified: “2 × 5 × 1.73 x 214.21”

Explanation: The parenthesis used dictate the type, the product method processes the coefficient first and then the time, the stacking method processes the time first and then the coefficient.

Since bleeding only changes the coefficient I am only going to do it once.

DGraves.3720:

Ayrilana.1396:

DGraves.3720:

Seera.5916:

You’re not accounting for having the ability to have more stacks of the condition.

I don’t know about you, but I don’t wait until my 1 bleed is gone to apply another. So please, do calculations based on how people actually play the game. Not to make the numbers fit your conclusion.

The condition stacking effect can be measured and graphed as X = Y.

The maximum number of stacks you can have of a condition is equal to the product of that condition’s single stack calculation. They are completely interchangeable.

A bleed that does 100 dmg over 10s does 1,000 damage total.
A bleed that does 100 dmg at ten stacks is worth 1,000 damage.

Do it using real numbers. Also show where you are getting the 1.73 multiplier that you have used for both burning and bleeds.

( applications per second x base x condition duration x condition damage x coefficient )

One application of burning @ 5s.

Stack Method:

(1 × 5 × 1.73) x 0.155 × 1382 = 1852.92

Simplified: 8.65 × .155 × 1382

Product Method:

1x 5 × 1.73 x (0.155 × 1382) = 1852.92

Simplified: 1 × 5 × 1.73 x 107.105

If applying two in a second:

Stack:

(2 × 5 × 1.73) x 0.155 × 1382 = 3705.83

Simplified: “17.3 × .155 × 1382”

Product:

2 x 5 × 1.73 x (0.155*1382) = 3705.83

Simplified: “2 × 5 × 1.73 x 214.21”

Explanation: The parenthesis used dictate the type, the product method processes the coefficient first and then the time, the stacking method processes the time first and then the coefficient.

Since bleeding only changes the coefficient I am only going to do it once.

And again, you’re using numbers you made up and ignoring everything that I suggested that you do.

Serval.6458:

DGraves.3720:

Ayrilana.1396:

Somehow I think that 1 sec bleed was intentional rather than the duration most bleeds last.

5s burn:

5*1.73*0.155*1382 = 1852.917
5*2*0.155*1192 = 1847.6

1852.917 / 1847.6 = 1.002878 (proposed ratio)

You can do it with any length of condition. It does not matter.

That’s not the formula for condition damage, they have a base value that you are conveniently ignoring.

For burning this base value (131.5 at level 80) is a significant part of the total damage.

5(1.73(0.155*1382+131.5)) = 2,990
5(2(0.155*1192+131.5)) = 3,162

I’ll reduce this to 1s for ease of explanation.

(1 × 1.73 × 131.5) + (1 × 1.73 × .155 x 1382) would be the same thing at one second. The value that is a base is equal to 227.495 and the value gotten from condition damage is 370.5833 totalling 598.0783 in a second.

(1 × 2 × 131.5) + (1 × 2 × .155x 1192) equals 263 + 319.6348 which is 582.6348 in one second.

598.0783 > 582.6348, 598.0783 / 582.6348 = 1.026506 which is the new slope adding in the burning damage. This means that for every second the shorter condition duration does one “unit” (I have not deciphered how that unit is measured, as I am busy with this, whether in percentage points [compounding most likely or damage points [linear]) more per tick.

I broke the two into two equations specifically because you misplaced your parentheses. 131.5+(.155 × 1000) x 3 for instance is 596.5 while (131.5+.155 × 1000) x 3 = 859.5. What you did is took the base, reduced it to 15% of itself, and multiplied it by 1,000.

“(0.155 x Condition Damage) + 131.5”

Please note the actual formula from the GW2 Wiki. Thank you. http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Burning

Ayrilana.1396:

DGraves.3720:

Ayrilana.1396:

DGraves.3720:

Seera.5916:

You’re not accounting for having the ability to have more stacks of the condition.

I don’t know about you, but I don’t wait until my 1 bleed is gone to apply another. So please, do calculations based on how people actually play the game. Not to make the numbers fit your conclusion.

The condition stacking effect can be measured and graphed as X = Y.

The maximum number of stacks you can have of a condition is equal to the product of that condition’s single stack calculation. They are completely interchangeable.

A bleed that does 100 dmg over 10s does 1,000 damage total.
A bleed that does 100 dmg at ten stacks is worth 1,000 damage.

Do it using real numbers. Also show where you are getting the 1.73 multiplier that you have used for both burning and bleeds.

( applications per second x base x condition duration x condition damage x coefficient )

One application of burning @ 5s.

Stack Method:

(1 × 5 × 1.73) x 0.155 × 1382 = 1852.92

Simplified: 8.65 × .155 × 1382

Product Method:

1x 5 × 1.73 x (0.155 × 1382) = 1852.92

Simplified: 1 × 5 × 1.73 x 107.105

If applying two in a second:

Stack:

(2 × 5 × 1.73) x 0.155 × 1382 = 3705.83

Simplified: “17.3 × .155 × 1382”

Product:

2 x 5 × 1.73 x (0.155*1382) = 3705.83

Simplified: “2 × 5 × 1.73 x 214.21”

Explanation: The parenthesis used dictate the type, the product method processes the coefficient first and then the time, the stacking method processes the time first and then the coefficient.

Since bleeding only changes the coefficient I am only going to do it once.

And again, you’re using numbers you made up and ignoring everything that I suggested that you do.

I can do an analysis of Dual Shot by Warrior as that applies two real stacks of burning, each at one second, applied every 1.19s?

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dual_Shot

Otherwise asking me to just “pick one” isn’t really helpful since these numbers represent a myriad of commonly found variables mixed with genuine coefficients. Whether it’s kitten burn or bleed or torment or confusion (active and passive) or even the reaper’s chill the coefficient itself doesn’t matter and doesn’t change anything.

Serval did use the correct formula and his adjustments add up.

DGraves.3720:

(1 × 1.73 × 131.5) + (1 × 1.73 × .155 x 1382) would be the same thing at one second. The value that is a base is equal to 227.495 and the value gotten from condition damage is 370.5833 totalling 598.0783 in a second.

(1 × 2 × 131.5) + (1 × 2 × .155x 1192) equals 263 + 319.6348 which is 582.6348 in one second.

Your Viper calc would be 263 + 369.52 = 632.52. Which is higher than Sinister. What you did was 1192 * 0.155 * 1.73, using the Sinister duration instead of Viper.

DGraves.3720:

Ayrilana.1396:

DGraves.3720:

Ayrilana.1396:

DGraves.3720:

Seera.5916:

You’re not accounting for having the ability to have more stacks of the condition.

I don’t know about you, but I don’t wait until my 1 bleed is gone to apply another. So please, do calculations based on how people actually play the game. Not to make the numbers fit your conclusion.

The condition stacking effect can be measured and graphed as X = Y.

The maximum number of stacks you can have of a condition is equal to the product of that condition’s single stack calculation. They are completely interchangeable.

A bleed that does 100 dmg over 10s does 1,000 damage total.
A bleed that does 100 dmg at ten stacks is worth 1,000 damage.

Do it using real numbers. Also show where you are getting the 1.73 multiplier that you have used for both burning and bleeds.

( applications per second x base x condition duration x condition damage x coefficient )

One application of burning @ 5s.

Stack Method:

(1 × 5 × 1.73) x 0.155 × 1382 = 1852.92

Simplified: 8.65 × .155 × 1382

Product Method:

1x 5 × 1.73 x (0.155 × 1382) = 1852.92

Simplified: 1 × 5 × 1.73 x 107.105

If applying two in a second:

Stack:

(2 × 5 × 1.73) x 0.155 × 1382 = 3705.83

Simplified: “17.3 × .155 × 1382”

Product:

2 x 5 × 1.73 x (0.155*1382) = 3705.83

Simplified: “2 × 5 × 1.73 x 214.21”

Explanation: The parenthesis used dictate the type, the product method processes the coefficient first and then the time, the stacking method processes the time first and then the coefficient.

Since bleeding only changes the coefficient I am only going to do it once.

And again, you’re using numbers you made up and ignoring everything that I suggested that you do.

I can do an analysis of Dual Shot by Warrior as that applies two real stacks of burning, each at one second, applied every 1.19s?

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dual_Shot

Otherwise asking me to just “pick one” isn’t really helpful since these numbers represent a myriad of commonly found variables mixed with genuine coefficients. Whether it’s kitten burn or bleed or torment or confusion (active and passive) or even the reaper’s chill the coefficient itself doesn’t matter and doesn’t change anything.

All that you have shown here is that you twist and misuse formulas to suit your argument. When asked to show how you got a certain multiplier, you ignore it. When asked to use real numbers and post the entire builds as you would see in game, you ignore it and continue to do what you do. The only thing that you’re doing now is cherry picking numbers, including what parts of the formula to include, in order to support your belief.

Glacial.9516:

Serval did use the correct formula and his adjustments add up.

DGraves.3720:

(1 × 1.73 × 131.5) + (1 × 1.73 × .155 x 1382) would be the same thing at one second. The value that is a base is equal to 227.495 and the value gotten from condition damage is 370.5833 totalling 598.0783 in a second.

(1 × 2 × 131.5) + (1 × 2 × .155x 1192) equals 263 + 319.6348 which is 582.6348 in one second.

Your Viper calc would be 263 + 369.52 = 632.52. Which is higher than Sinister. What you did was 1192 * 0.155 * 1.73, using the Sinister duration instead of Viper.

You are right about the mistake and I did misapply.

It is indeed 632.52 and 598.0783.

Thanks for catching that.

Correcting for b <> 0 @ 2x duration it’s 183% considering only gear.

DGraves.3720:

Glacial.9516:

Serval did use the correct formula and his adjustments add up.

DGraves.3720:

(1 × 1.73 × 131.5) + (1 × 1.73 × .155 x 1382) would be the same thing at one second. The value that is a base is equal to 227.495 and the value gotten from condition damage is 370.5833 totalling 598.0783 in a second.

(1 × 2 × 131.5) + (1 × 2 × .155x 1192) equals 263 + 319.6348 which is 582.6348 in one second.

Your Viper calc would be 263 + 369.52 = 632.52. Which is higher than Sinister. What you did was 1192 * 0.155 * 1.73, using the Sinister duration instead of Viper.

You are right about the mistake and I did misapply.

It is indeed 632.52 and 598.0783.

Thanks for catching that.

Correcting for b <> 0 @ 2x duration it’s 183% considering only gear.

soooooo does this lead you to the conclusion that viper > sinister when duration is not already capped?

DGraves.3720:

I am going to put this to rest because honestly I don’t want to read all that over a simple linear equation.

I went and grabbed the ascended numbers.
Viper’s condition damage is 1192.
Sinister’s condition damage is 1382.

Taking a 1s bleed & burn I tested for when Sinister’s stacks outperformed Viper’s though this could be done with any trade-off between the two.

1382 * .155 * 1.73 = 370.5833
1192 * .155 * 2 = 369.52

1382 * .06 * 1.73 = 143.4516
1192 * .06 * 2 = 143.04

You’ve already done goofed. You’ve completely forgotten rune set bonuses and might. You’ve also specifically chosen a duration value for which Viper has redundant stats. If you already have a duration of 1.73% you wouldn’t go full Viper, because it caps at 200%. Let alone where this magic 73% comes from, because right now it is just an arbitrary advantage you’ve given to sinister, which itself only gives 0% duration. You also are completely omitting the base value for the condition, which is 22 per bleed and 131.5 per burn. You’ve literally gotten every single thing wrong. Not a word you’ve said is correct.. What’s more, you’re basically asking us to graph the product of the condition damage and its duration. You don’t need to do that. That value is already displayed in the tooltips of skills. So if the tooltip is higher for Viper, viper wins.

To correct your abomination of math, first, add 175 damage for the rune set to each stat. Then, add 22 or 131.5 points of damage, before the duration modifier. Then, pick a duration for Sinister which full viper does not have wasted stats (I.E. Sinister at 58% duration), because comparing the two sets when one literally throws stats into a void is stupid. If you’re over the condition duration cap for your build, you don’t just keep putting in more condition duration. You swap out the redundant pieces of Viper for Sinister. Optionally you can add 750 to each stat for maximum might. Now, lets look at the real formula.

(1,367 × 0.06 + 22) x 2 = 208
(1,557 × 0.06 + 22 ) x 1.58 = 182

(1,367 × 0.155 + 131.5) x 2 = 687
(1,557 × 0.155 + 131.5) x 1.58 = 589

(2,117 × 0.06 + 22) x 2 = 298
(2,307 × 0.06 + 22) x 1.58 = 253

(2,118 × 0.155 + 131.5) x 2 = 920
(2,307 × 0.155 + 131.5) x 2 = 773

Viper wins.

insanemaniac.2456:

DGraves.3720:

Glacial.9516:

Serval did use the correct formula and his adjustments add up.

DGraves.3720:

(1 × 1.73 × 131.5) + (1 × 1.73 × .155 x 1382) would be the same thing at one second. The value that is a base is equal to 227.495 and the value gotten from condition damage is 370.5833 totalling 598.0783 in a second.

(1 × 2 × 131.5) + (1 × 2 × .155x 1192) equals 263 + 319.6348 which is 582.6348 in one second.

Your Viper calc would be 263 + 369.52 = 632.52. Which is higher than Sinister. What you did was 1192 * 0.155 * 1.73, using the Sinister duration instead of Viper.

You are right about the mistake and I did misapply.

It is indeed 632.52 and 598.0783.

Thanks for catching that.

Correcting for b <> 0 @ 2x duration it’s 183% considering only gear.

soooooo does this lead you to the conclusion that viper > sinister when duration is not already capped?

The conclusion is not so simple. You should get as much condition duration as possible from non-obstructing sources (basically things that don’t have condition damage trade-offs) and make the up the difference between 83 and that number through whatever means you choose.

Taking bleeds for instance if you took sigil of agony ( 20 ) + rare veggie pizza ( 20 ) + rune of the krait ( 45 ) you would have 85% on bleeding, you only need 83% so you would not take Viper’s armor. This doesn’t include a toxic oil.

A more well-rounded set up ( saying that you apply and maintain maybe 4 or more conditions at a time permanently ) might be Sigil of Malice ( 10 ) + pizza ( 20 ) + a toxic oil ( 10 ) + combinations of runes depending on the focus ( 25~45 ) with low end equaling 65% ( 10 + 10 + 20 + 25 ). You need 83% so you would only want 18% which is 270 expertise.

None of these obviously include traits or other elements. Presuming you wanted your runes for something else you would need 43% which requires full Viper’s stats but is also short 1%.

If we included a trait that gave 33% to a condition, any special skills or sigils or other elements, and so forth and so on these numbers change drastically, for instance in the first presentation the 33% bleed duration wipes the need for the pizza or frees up the sigil and them some. All over 83% that doesn’t involve a trade-off between condition duration and condition damage is just a bonus. It isn’t “bad”.

The name of the game is to avoid taking less condition damage when you can.

DGraves.3720:

insanemaniac.2456:

DGraves.3720:

Glacial.9516:

Serval did use the correct formula and his adjustments add up.

DGraves.3720:

(1 × 1.73 × 131.5) + (1 × 1.73 × .155 x 1382) would be the same thing at one second. The value that is a base is equal to 227.495 and the value gotten from condition damage is 370.5833 totalling 598.0783 in a second.

(1 × 2 × 131.5) + (1 × 2 × .155x 1192) equals 263 + 319.6348 which is 582.6348 in one second.

Your Viper calc would be 263 + 369.52 = 632.52. Which is higher than Sinister. What you did was 1192 * 0.155 * 1.73, using the Sinister duration instead of Viper.

You are right about the mistake and I did misapply.

It is indeed 632.52 and 598.0783.

Thanks for catching that.

Correcting for b <> 0 @ 2x duration it’s 183% considering only gear.

soooooo does this lead you to the conclusion that viper > sinister when duration is not already capped?

The conclusion is not so simple. You should get as much condition duration as possible from non-obstructing sources (basically things that don’t have condition damage trade-offs) and make the up the difference between 83 and that number through whatever means you choose.

Taking bleeds for instance if you took sigil of agony ( 20 ) + rare veggie pizza ( 20 ) + rune of the krait ( 45 ) you would have 85% on bleeding, you only need 83% so you would not take Viper’s armor. This doesn’t include a toxic oil.

A more well-rounded set up ( saying that you apply and maintain maybe 4 or more conditions at a time permanently ) might be Sigil of Malice ( 10 ) + pizza ( 20 ) + a toxic oil ( 10 ) + combinations of runes depending on the focus ( 25~45 ) with low end equaling 65% ( 10 + 10 + 20 + 25 ). You need 83% so you would only want 18% which is 270 expertise.

None of these obviously include traits or other elements. Presuming you wanted your runes for something else you would need 43% which requires full Viper’s stats but is also short 1%.

If we included a trait that gave 33% to a condition, any special skills or sigils or other elements, and so forth and so on these numbers change drastically, for instance in the first presentation the 33% bleed duration wipes the need for the pizza or frees up the sigil and them some. All over 83% that doesn’t involve a trade-off between condition duration and condition damage is just a bonus. It isn’t “bad”.

The name of the game is to avoid taking less condition damage when you can.

so youve finally convinced yourself that viper > sinister when you dont have enough condi duration?

This thread is like the guy I get emails from trying to get me to promote his gravity bubbles or solar neutrino death theories. They always include a crap ton of numbers, and a lot of words, usually lack in units, and the math is mostly nonsense that makes no sense lol.

The only way to deal with his kind of nonsense is to ignore it. These people crave attention.

You don’t understand. It fulfills a need present in the hearts of many men to yell endlessly at these kinds of things. A large part of us are responding because we enjoy the act of taking him down.

insanemaniac.2456:

DGraves.3720:

insanemaniac.2456:

DGraves.3720:

Glacial.9516:

Serval did use the correct formula and his adjustments add up.

DGraves.3720:

(1 × 1.73 × 131.5) + (1 × 1.73 × .155 x 1382) would be the same thing at one second. The value that is a base is equal to 227.495 and the value gotten from condition damage is 370.5833 totalling 598.0783 in a second.

(1 × 2 × 131.5) + (1 × 2 × .155x 1192) equals 263 + 319.6348 which is 582.6348 in one second.

Your Viper calc would be 263 + 369.52 = 632.52. Which is higher than Sinister. What you did was 1192 * 0.155 * 1.73, using the Sinister duration instead of Viper.

You are right about the mistake and I did misapply.

It is indeed 632.52 and 598.0783.

Thanks for catching that.

Correcting for b <> 0 @ 2x duration it’s 183% considering only gear.

soooooo does this lead you to the conclusion that viper > sinister when duration is not already capped?

The conclusion is not so simple. You should get as much condition duration as possible from non-obstructing sources (basically things that don’t have condition damage trade-offs) and make the up the difference between 83 and that number through whatever means you choose.

Taking bleeds for instance if you took sigil of agony ( 20 ) + rare veggie pizza ( 20 ) + rune of the krait ( 45 ) you would have 85% on bleeding, you only need 83% so you would not take Viper’s armor. This doesn’t include a toxic oil.

A more well-rounded set up ( saying that you apply and maintain maybe 4 or more conditions at a time permanently ) might be Sigil of Malice ( 10 ) + pizza ( 20 ) + a toxic oil ( 10 ) + combinations of runes depending on the focus ( 25~45 ) with low end equaling 65% ( 10 + 10 + 20 + 25 ). You need 83% so you would only want 18% which is 270 expertise.

None of these obviously include traits or other elements. Presuming you wanted your runes for something else you would need 43% which requires full Viper’s stats but is also short 1%.

If we included a trait that gave 33% to a condition, any special skills or sigils or other elements, and so forth and so on these numbers change drastically, for instance in the first presentation the 33% bleed duration wipes the need for the pizza or frees up the sigil and them some. All over 83% that doesn’t involve a trade-off between condition duration and condition damage is just a bonus. It isn’t “bad”.

The name of the game is to avoid taking less condition damage when you can.

so youve finally convinced yourself that viper > sinister when you dont have enough condi duration?

Actually I never said condition duration was bad. I said that the 100% base thing using tradeoffs made no sense and was fundamentally wrong; the whole calculation behind how it was found just seemed off at first glance. And it was. Viper’s and Sinister have a relationship similar to Assassin’s and Berserker’s. You take just enough Assassin’s to hit whatever your goal critical chance is and the rest is Berserker’s; the same is true of Viper’s and Sinister, but because this is a generic assessment I can’t make sweeping claims for all classes. The odds you need all Viper’s armor to reach 83% is very, very low in most instances, esp. with builds that specialize in only one or two conditions.

Is internet 101 not a required class anymore?
This thread is embarrassing

This thread seems silly.

Idk why people overcomplicate it. Yeah if you’re hitting overcap for condition duration you’re wasting your condition duration. If you promote one stat over the other you are losing DPS. Fight mechanics may either favor or disfavor condi damage/duration.

The reason why people are responding to this thread is because then they can call this guy an idiot guilt-free.

Is there any way to get Viper trinkets through vendors or do they have to be crafted? It seems viper is better and easier to get than sinister trinkets , which you only get from LS2 achievements.

Akrib.4297:

Is there any way to get Viper trinkets through vendors or do they have to be crafted? It seems viper is better and easier to get than sinister trinkets , which you only get from LS2 achievements.

You’d have to get the exotic recipe from Auric Basin to make the Exotic ones or buy the Black Diamond Jewelry recipes off the TP.

You cannot craft ascended Viper’s. Those are only obtainable through raids or personal story for Mordrem Loop.

Akrib.4297:

Is there any way to get Viper trinkets through vendors or do they have to be crafted? It seems viper is better and easier to get than sinister trinkets , which you only get from LS2 achievements.

The ascended amulet you can get from completing the HoT Part 4 story achievements or Sabetha.
Ascended rings are a rare drop from Vale Guardian.
Ascended accessories are from Gorseval.

I’d say higher condition dmg vs higher condition duration

1 short fights/ regular condition removal: condition dmg
2 long fights allowing for long durations (few or no cleanse): condition duration…

Sarrs.4831:

This thread seems silly.

Idk why people overcomplicate it. Yeah if you’re hitting overcap for condition duration you’re wasting your condition duration. If you promote one stat over the other you are losing DPS. Fight mechanics may either favor or disfavor condi damage/duration.

The main problem was that it wasn’t even thought out.

No one bothered to graphs these two aspects, look for the midpoint, and make decisions.

It’s an easy graph to make but you have to keep in mind that in this thread alone I have heard:

1. Condition damage has diminishing returns. (wtf?)

2. A distinct failure to understand basic DPS which is simply dividing the product of the bleed by the duration of the bleed.

3. At least two wrong iterations of how to calculate even a basic bleed.

I hear wonky things about condition damage and duration all the time whether it be completely impossible DPS numbers to bizarre statements about how it actually works. What was “solved” isn’t even universally agreed on, universally testable, doesn’t have a unifying equation, and has been struggling with the fact that there is more than one dimension to this game since the beginning.

When I started three years ago taking condition duration was “stupid”. Now it’s the opposite; the belief that 100% is the best option no matter what has emerged which is the same extreme assumption. Black and white, no?

You would think that a 3 year old problem would have been solved three years ago since nothing has actually changed but … yeah.

DGraves.3720:

When I started three years ago taking condition duration was “stupid”. Now it’s the opposite; the belief that 100% is the best option no matter what has emerged which is the same extreme assumption. Black and white, no?

You would think that a 3 year old problem would have been solved three years ago since nothing has actually changed but … yeah.

in general condi duration has always been the optimal choice for condi builds. its severely overbudgeted. but you used to only take enough to ensure that you capped out whichever condis you were using, similar to capping out crit rate in your assassin/zerk comparison. that constraint was removed.

insanemaniac.2456:

DGraves.3720:

When I started three years ago taking condition duration was “stupid”. Now it’s the opposite; the belief that 100% is the best option no matter what has emerged which is the same extreme assumption. Black and white, no?

You would think that a 3 year old problem would have been solved three years ago since nothing has actually changed but … yeah.

in general condi duration has always been the optimal choice for condi builds. its severely overbudgeted. but you used to only take enough to ensure that you capped out whichever condis you were using, similar to capping out crit rate in your assassin/zerk comparison. that constraint was removed.

Rather than go into a history lesson about the madness I have seen I’ll simply state a truth:

Historically you used to be able to get 30% condition duration from a trait line and 40% from food just by itself. Two giver’s weapons and you had 90% resting condition duration including no skills or other sources.

But back then condition damage was thought of as weak and worthless though yesteryear it had a higher base damage and coefficient plus more sources since more auto-attacks actually dealt things like bleeding. However interestingly enough even with this being true a dedicated condition person wasn’t considered in most 5 man’s and so forth and so on because they literally thought they did no damage (“Necro Sucks”) even though bleed was better then than it has ever been and the 25 cap wouldn’t have been an issue since the highest damage bleeds overrode the lower ones etc.

It was a different time and not the subject of the thread.

Moving forward it’s time to find that unifying formula and make sure no one ever thinks that condition damage has diminishing returns (again, wtf?) again no matter what changes are made.

That’s because “yesteryear,” bleeds were the only condition to really benefit from condition duration, and even then, only in a solo setting.

Burning and Poison stacked duration, so even without investing in duration, permanent uptime was easy. Confusion was only brought by Mesmers and really did suck terribly in PvE (in WvW, condition builds as a whole were worthless due to mass cleansing, and in PvP, they would usually die to Confusion before duration became an issue).

So that leaves us with just Bleeding where condition duration is important. And then, only if you are the only one trying to stack them because, contrary to your belief, there was no regard for strength of a condition when the stack limit was reached.

Now, though, all damaging conditions stack intensity, making duration much more valuable. Now the strength of each application can be considered instead of just the presence of the application.

This is comedy gold. May I refer to this thread (https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Ascended-Gear-only-for-Power-CHANGE-THAT/page/2#post6012509) were DGraves was already peddling this nonsense talking about crests and lovingly twisting numbers so it fits his definition. Well less numbers since he was still in the process of doing his math but more general approach, which here already was critisied for logical errors.

So now the math you did yourself fits with the numbers others had before, great so we are all on the same page.

DGraves must be someone who pretends to be eloquent and in search of ‘academical’ approaches while lacking the intellect to possess reading comprehension, seeing how it’s two pages of people throwing the same calculations at him and pointing out how pretty much everything he has said is utter rubbish without him acknowledging it.

OR he is a superb troll, seeing how this thread is still going.

At any rate, everything has been said and laid out in the thread, multiple times. Anyone who does possess the mythical ability of reading comprehension can easily see how DGraves is wrong on every account, may as well close the thread.

Sourde Noire.5286:

DGraves must be someone who pretends to be eloquent and in search of ‘academical’ approaches while lacking the intellect to possess reading comprehension, seeing how it’s two pages of people throwing the same calculations at him and pointing out how pretty much everything he has said is utter rubbish without him acknowledging it.

OR he is a superb troll, seeing how this thread is still going.

At any rate, everything has been said and laid out in the thread, multiple times. Anyone who does possess the mythical ability of reading comprehension can easily see how DGraves is wrong on every account, may as well close the thread.

“I didn’t say that CD has diminishing returns in terms of the gain, I’m saying that the discrepancy between a full Sinister, a full Viper and a mix set diminishes if you apply additional buffs that can roughly double the CD.”

This literally makes no sense. And that’s you!

The thread should never have been opened, on that we both can agree, because people like you roam the land. You can’t even recognize simple college level algebra patterns well enough to know that what you just said, even in correction to what you believed was the assumption I made, makes no sense.

I have no problem being disagreed with but it takes a lot of out of a person to listen to people who cannot actually do math talk about how math works.

Cyninja.2954:

This is comedy gold. May I refer to this thread (https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Ascended-Gear-only-for-Power-CHANGE-THAT/page/2#post6012509) were DGraves was already peddling this nonsense talking about crests and lovingly twisting numbers so it fits his definition. Well less numbers since he was still in the process of doing his math but more general approach, which here already was critisied for logical errors.

So now the math you did yourself fits with the numbers others had before, great so we are all on the same page.

I guess you wanted a response pretty badly, fine. I am not busy.

“And you are still sidestepping the actual point. No matter if you look at single target effective damage or at total damage, if you come out on top with condition damage versus direct damage, the condition damage burst would be higher. Which is exactly what happened with burnzerkers and other high condition damage builds.”

This is horribly wrong. Big numbers produce a lot of illusions and for the most part the cumulative damage dealt getting to large bursts of conditions or high stacks completely outperforms the stack itself when considering both application (“ramp up time” was used in this thread) and swapping in ferocity. So let’s look at Burnzerker:

I chose a video on YouTube that does this, went to 1:04 to see the condition damage value, it is 1841. Now while I am not busy I am feeling lazy so I will just generously give 800 as an increase to encapsulate all the augmentations to see what happens and how many stacks it takes to hit 25k with 2,641 condition damage (E: Nah, let’s give him more, let’s make it 3,200).

We all know the formula, 3200*.155+131.5 = 627.5

25,000 / 627.5 = 39. It takes 39 stacks of burning to do 25k burns for some time which is not constantly maintainable.

I’m going to lazily use my engineer’s bomb 1 to analyze the difference in power. To make it fair rather than using my build I’ll just cobble one together in the build editor using Assassin’s w/ zerker trinkets.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQFAEWeLKwNMETrvHcCDgx14GzCA-TRRAABbp8LRdAmq+DAPAA1UCCA-e

Using this complete kitten build let’s just plug in the numbers but first I will admit I do not actually know how a kit scales to the rarity of a weapon so it may be 1:1 or not and so to be fair I will use low-end of the rifle rather than high or average:

1035 * 2156 * 1.25 / 3000 = 929.775 * 2.14 = 1,989.7185

So without proper sigils, purposefully gimping myself in assassin’s to hold back on power, with no runes, and considering no traits or boosts or anything else just dropping one bomb will do nearly 2,000 damage? This completely unpolished kitten of a build somehow in your mind will somehow do less damage because of a lack of numbers?

The nice thing about this video is that it has footage of the actual feat which takes a total of 27s. My crappy build, if I purposefully lengthen the time of a bomb to 1s, in that 27s does 57722.3995 from just the damage alone ignoring the bleeds, ignoring other attack opportunities, ignoring effects that coincide, keeping in mind it’s a total kitten .

Now it began to dip about 32s after and it waivered on the way up, hit that big number but couldn’t actually stay there for too long, and then showed more of a pattern of ebbing and flowing. The damage for my PoS build doesn’t do that.

In doing the bare minimum possible, no rotation, I can calmly say I am not worried about whether condition damage or power gets the best out of stats. I mean realistically what do you think happens if I put it all together? Max out the fury? Take into consideration all the things that can be done? Increase my output by real values and take runes and sigils with berserker’s armor?

This isn’t even fun. It actually proves the point so well it’s almost like you just wanted to agree with me. It takes 23 burns to do what hundred blades does regularly. Hell it takes 4 stacks of burning to pretty much match one of my craptastic bomb attacks using the lowest end of the range and an obscene amount of armor on the opponent with nothing but the ascended armor stats by themselves!

How you people live your lives is up to you and what you believe is yours alone but my goodness …

Well, good luck to you. It was fun but I am off to actually play the game now.

Oh, and in the video, by the by it took far more than 46 stacks. From what I can see it was 66 when it did 24k.

Edit: Thought I’d be super-generous to prove the point, condition damage, effectively, is now 3,200 which is basically just for jollies. because proving a point never gets old.

insanemaniac.2456:

DGraves.3720:

When I started three years ago taking condition duration was “stupid”. Now it’s the opposite; the belief that 100% is the best option no matter what has emerged which is the same extreme assumption. Black and white, no?

You would think that a 3 year old problem would have been solved three years ago since nothing has actually changed but … yeah.

in general condi duration has always been the optimal choice for condi builds. its severely overbudgeted. but you used to only take enough to ensure that you capped out whichever condis you were using, similar to capping out crit rate in your assassin/zerk comparison. that constraint was removed.

Actually, before the changes which currently limit you to 100% condi duration, it was entirely possible to EXCEED 100%. I’m not certain of the exact number, by my necro’s autoattack was, with runes, traits, foods, etc, was able to break 15 seconds on the bleed.

Aidan Savage.2078:

insanemaniac.2456:

DGraves.3720:

When I started three years ago taking condition duration was “stupid”. Now it’s the opposite; the belief that 100% is the best option no matter what has emerged which is the same extreme assumption. Black and white, no?

You would think that a 3 year old problem would have been solved three years ago since nothing has actually changed but … yeah.

in general condi duration has always been the optimal choice for condi builds. its severely overbudgeted. but you used to only take enough to ensure that you capped out whichever condis you were using, similar to capping out crit rate in your assassin/zerk comparison. that constraint was removed.

Actually, before the changes which currently limit you to 100% condi duration, it was entirely possible to EXCEED 100%. I’m not certain of the exact number, by my necro’s autoattack was, with runes, traits, foods, etc, was able to break 15 seconds on the bleed.

That is unique to Necro Scepter only. That’s because Lingering Curse changes the base duration of the conditions.

Aidan Savage.2078:

insanemaniac.2456:

DGraves.3720:

When I started three years ago taking condition duration was “stupid”. Now it’s the opposite; the belief that 100% is the best option no matter what has emerged which is the same extreme assumption. Black and white, no?

You would think that a 3 year old problem would have been solved three years ago since nothing has actually changed but … yeah.

in general condi duration has always been the optimal choice for condi builds. its severely overbudgeted. but you used to only take enough to ensure that you capped out whichever condis you were using, similar to capping out crit rate in your assassin/zerk comparison. that constraint was removed.

Actually, before the changes which currently limit you to 100% condi duration, it was entirely possible to EXCEED 100%. I’m not certain of the exact number, by my necro’s autoattack was, with runes, traits, foods, etc, was able to break 15 seconds on the bleed.

At the cost of bumping this thread; some traits (like necro scepter’s 50% condition duration buff) don’t actually buff you condition duration, they increase the base duration of the skills themselves, essentially replacing them with better versions.

DGraves.3720:

“I didn’t say that CD has diminishing returns in terms of the gain, I’m saying that the discrepancy between a full Sinister, a full Viper and a mix set diminishes if you apply additional buffs that can roughly double the CD.”

This literally makes no sense. And that’s you!

I have no problem being disagreed with but it takes a lot of out of a person to listen to people who cannot actually do math talk about how math works.

I mean, I keep coming back because you’re really good at walking the thin line between credible density and intentional riling up. So, kudos, I have to give you that.

Disregarding the fact that every single calculation you’ve done in this thread was plain wrong, I will spell it out for you (re: reading comprehension), since you seem to be hung up on the terminology ‘diminish’, which you seem to equate with diminishing returns.

I’ll try to be as simple as possible, so you can hopefully understand:

When your build including party buffs already has something like 2400 Condition Damage, giving up a little amount to gain huge amounts of Condition Duration is better (unless you use your bogus calculations that look at one single stack of bleed applied once or looking exclusively at fights against trashmobs that die so quickly any discussion about damage is pointless anyway), since the relative loss of Condition Damage is widely outweighed by the increased duration, which increases damage AND DPS overall.

But seeing how you can’t understand what people tell you, let alone correctly apply simple formulas and don’t even know the difference between damage and DPS, the paragraph was probably too confusing for you.

For your own sake I can really only hope that you are trolling. It would make me sad to think that people can actually be that far up their own butt while being so impervious to reason.

Based on what I’m seeing, the engineer meta build sacrifices 96 condition damage for 21% condition duration by having viper armor/weapons over sinister armor/weapons. This is before runes are added to the armor. Both use sinister trinkets. I don’t see a need to use viper trinkets.

The OP states the condition duration difference can be made up with food and runes in their first post and at least one more post. They also illustrated this in their examples of bleeds and burns where they went with Mad King or Balthazar runes respectively. Of course this isn’t effective as some of the condition duration will be wasted with consumables and you lose DPS with one of those two conditions not having an equal duration. The OP would likely use x4 Nightmare runes and x2 Trapper runes giving themselves 100 condition damage and 25% condition duration.

Those doing vipers would go with Berserker runes. This adds 175 condition damage which then puts the gap between sinister and viper at 21 condition damage. But hey! The sinister build now has 4% more condition duration.

We’ll also assume that both builds use toxic crystals, pizza, sigil of malice, and the trait line to get +33% bleed and burn duration. This alone is 73% condition duration before runes or expertise. This puts the sinister build at 21 condition damage and 4% condition duration over vipers for bleeds and burns which I said several seconds ago.

But wait. I left out something about Berserker runes. Having all 6 increases outgoing damage from conditions by 5%. That easily allows it to surpass the sinister build and only gets better when you find additional sources to increase condition damage such as infusions.

If I missed something then feel free to correct me as I’m more familiar with power builds.

dont forget that if you were to somehow rng a full set of ascended viper trinkets in the viper build you could ditch sigil of malice for earth and get more dps

DGraves.3720:

Cyninja.2954:

This is comedy gold. May I refer to this thread (https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Ascended-Gear-only-for-Power-CHANGE-THAT/page/2#post6012509) were DGraves was already peddling this nonsense talking about crests and lovingly twisting numbers so it fits his definition. Well less numbers since he was still in the process of doing his math but more general approach, which here already was critisied for logical errors.

So now the math you did yourself fits with the numbers others had before, great so we are all on the same page.

I guess you wanted a response pretty badly, fine. I am not busy.

“And you are still sidestepping the actual point. No matter if you look at single target effective damage or at total damage, if you come out on top with condition damage versus direct damage, the condition damage burst would be higher. Which is exactly what happened with burnzerkers and other high condition damage builds.”

This is horribly wrong. Big numbers produce a lot of illusions and for the most part the cumulative damage dealt getting to large bursts of conditions or high stacks completely outperforms the stack itself when considering both application (“ramp up time” was used in this thread) and swapping in ferocity.

I think people are right, this seems to be straight up reading comprehension and you not having some.

If skill a applies X amount of bleed stacks and does Y amount of total damage (no matter over what time). If Y is higher with more condition duration versus condition damage, you will be doing more damage total with more condition duration versus damagestarting a second rotation. Is this so hard to understand? Your math in this thread proves just that. Now READ and COMPREHEND that what I am saying is plainly put the exact thing you have been doing math for. I’ve been saying this all along but you seem to still not understand. This has nothing to do with bigger numbers. On the contrary, condition duration actually recduces the single numbers you get for more total damage (which can be noticed by taging for how condition damage gets displayed ingame).

DGraves.3720:

I chose a video on YouTube that does this, went to 1:04 to see the condition damage value, it is 1841. Now while I am not busy I am feeling lazy so I will just generously give 800 as an increase to encapsulate all the augmentations to see what happens and how many stacks it takes to hit 25k with 2,641 condition damage (E: Nah, let’s give him more, let’s make it 3,200).

We all know the formula, 3200*.155+131.5 = 627.5

25,000 / 627.5 = 39. It takes 39 stacks of burning to do 25k burns for some time which is not constantly maintainable.

I’m going to lazily use my engineer’s bomb 1 to analyze the difference in power. To make it fair rather than using my build I’ll just cobble one together in the build editor using Assassin’s w/ zerker trinkets.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQFAEWeLKwNMETrvHcCDgx14GzCA-TRRAABbp8LRdAmq+DAPAA1UCCA-e

Using this complete kitten build let’s just plug in the numbers but first I will admit I do not actually know how a kit scales to the rarity of a weapon so it may be 1:1 or not and so to be fair I will use low-end of the rifle rather than high or average:

1035 * 2156 * 1.25 / 3000 = 929.775 * 2.14 = 1,989.7185

So without proper sigils, purposefully gimping myself in assassin’s to hold back on power, with no runes, and considering no traits or boosts or anything else just dropping one bomb will do nearly 2,000 damage? This completely unpolished kitten of a build somehow in your mind will somehow do less damage because of a lack of numbers?

The nice thing about this video is that it has footage of the actual feat which takes a total of 27s. My crappy build, if I purposefully lengthen the time of a bomb to 1s, in that 27s does 57722.3995 from just the damage alone ignoring the bleeds, ignoring other attack opportunities, ignoring effects that coincide, keeping in mind it’s a total kitten .

Now it began to dip about 32s after and it waivered on the way up, hit that big number but couldn’t actually stay there for too long, and then showed more of a pattern of ebbing and flowing. The damage for my PoS build doesn’t do that.

In doing the bare minimum possible, no rotation, I can calmly say I am not worried about whether condition damage or power gets the best out of stats. I mean realistically what do you think happens if I put it all together? Max out the fury? Take into consideration all the things that can be done? Increase my output by real values and take runes and sigils with berserker’s armor?

This isn’t even fun. It actually proves the point so well it’s almost like you just wanted to agree with me. It takes 23 burns to do what hundred blades does regularly. Hell it takes 4 stacks of burning to pretty much match one of my craptastic bomb attacks using the lowest end of the range and an obscene amount of armor on the opponent with nothing but the ascended armor stats by themselves!

How you people live your lives is up to you and what you believe is yours alone but my goodness …

Well, good luck to you. It was fun but I am off to actually play the game now.

So you compare direct damage which gets a huge factor of its damage from auto attacks versus condition damage which has its main damage come from skill and condition application, seems legit. See I don’t need to do any math to disprove you. All I need to do is read up or check which builds run the highest dps in the current or past meta and find one or 2 builds that were top tier while running conditions. Case in point, those did and still do exist. Hence all your mumbo jumbo is just that, mumbo jumbo.

DGraves.3720:

25,000 / 627.5 = 39. It takes 39 stacks of burning to do 25k burns for some time which is not constantly maintainable.

Now you are slowly getting somewhere. Yes, you need 39 burn stacks to reach 25k condition damage (which was close to attainable in burn warrior prenerf, see here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvT7avqfNG0 That is solo, no alacrity or haste and look, 20-25 bleed stacks too. Where is your math for that?). Ofcorse with condition builds you also apply bleeds with most if not all classes. Most condition builds apply muliple conditions. Power builds do not have this kind of benefit. They are capped at either running auto attacks or skills, depending on if skill use actually improves the damage they do (like thief in the current pve meta which just does autoattacks since using skills actually reduces damage done). So we are back to looking at total damage done over a specific amount of time (high there dps) in which case all it would take is to find 1 condition damage class being top tier to disprove you (condi engi and old burnzerker say high).

I’ll give your trolling a 2/10 because you are way to invested in anoying people with bad math. Good trolls get things rolling with 1-2 posts and then leave. Need more practice for the future.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Aidan Savage.2078:

insanemaniac.2456:

DGraves.3720:

When I started three years ago taking condition duration was “stupid”. Now it’s the opposite; the belief that 100% is the best option no matter what has emerged which is the same extreme assumption. Black and white, no?

You would think that a 3 year old problem would have been solved three years ago since nothing has actually changed but … yeah.

in general condi duration has always been the optimal choice for condi builds. its severely overbudgeted. but you used to only take enough to ensure that you capped out whichever condis you were using, similar to capping out crit rate in your assassin/zerk comparison. that constraint was removed.

Actually, before the changes which currently limit you to 100% condi duration, it was entirely possible to EXCEED 100%. I’m not certain of the exact number, by my necro’s autoattack was, with runes, traits, foods, etc, was able to break 15 seconds on the bleed.

That is unique to Necro Scepter only. That’s because Lingering Curse changes the base duration of the conditions.

Not by enough to account for it being nearly +200% though. This was back when it was a 33% increase, not the 50% we currently have. Granted, that did also include +30% from the trait line bonus too.

Aidan Savage.2078:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Aidan Savage.2078:

insanemaniac.2456:

DGraves.3720:

When I started three years ago taking condition duration was “stupid”. Now it’s the opposite; the belief that 100% is the best option no matter what has emerged which is the same extreme assumption. Black and white, no?

You would think that a 3 year old problem would have been solved three years ago since nothing has actually changed but … yeah.

in general condi duration has always been the optimal choice for condi builds. its severely overbudgeted. but you used to only take enough to ensure that you capped out whichever condis you were using, similar to capping out crit rate in your assassin/zerk comparison. that constraint was removed.

Actually, before the changes which currently limit you to 100% condi duration, it was entirely possible to EXCEED 100%. I’m not certain of the exact number, by my necro’s autoattack was, with runes, traits, foods, etc, was able to break 15 seconds on the bleed.

That is unique to Necro Scepter only. That’s because Lingering Curse changes the base duration of the conditions.

Not by enough to account for it being nearly +200% though. This was back when it was a 33% increase, not the 50% we currently have. Granted, that did also include +30% from the trait line bonus too.

I’m pretty sure the best you could do was 12s, never got above that. Necro scepter 2 could get to 25s, maybe that’s what you are thinking of? I’ve played necro since launch.

There’s always been the 100% cap, and scepter always had a 33% bonus (now 50%)

However in the past duration was much less important because of the bleed cap. You could reach the 25 cap solo on necro with about 60% duration so there was no point in going above that (food + bleed trait).

All in the past though, duration reigns supreme until you cap it now. It is highly class dependent too. Necro needs to cap chill, poison, and bleed, with other conditions still benefiting, just not as much. Unless you have a constant druid, then capping burn is also important. Engineer and warrior really just need to cap burn and bleed, so they can get away with a little less viper’s in some situations if they take the right runes and traits.

I think raids tomorrow will be very interesting for conditions. I suspect the sloth boss is going to be condition heavy, maybe throwing out a lot of slow and poison. Any number of situations could arise, changing things up.