Guild Wars 2

Condition alone is as bad as power alone, you need cond duration to make sure the damage will be on the target and to get big bleeding/torment stacks, also you need to be able to re-apply conds constantly (or because target is cleaning it or the duration) and most condition need crit% to proc.

Besides all that, condition damage is only useful if you are alone, if another player is also causing condition damage they are pretty much canceling each other, while with power they only add.

EDIT: But I agree that make defensive builds using cond damage is easier and more effective.

I don’t see any problems here.. and I main a warrior if that tells you anything about where I’m coming from.

Belzebu.3912:

Condition alone is as bad as power alone, you need cond duration to make sure the damage will be on the target and to get big bleeding/torment stacks, also you need to be able to re-apply conds constantly (or because target is cleaning it or the duration) and most condition need crit% to proc.

Besides all that, condition damage is only useful if you are alone, if another player is also causing condition damage they are pretty much canceling each other, while with power they only add.

EDIT: But I agree that make defensive builds using cond damage is easier and more effective.

They created the whole problem when they put in Dire and decided you can have full tank and spank without having to sacrifice anything.

Substance E.4852:

Belzebu.3912:

Condition alone is as bad as power alone, you need cond duration to make sure the damage will be on the target and to get big bleeding/torment stacks, also you need to be able to re-apply conds constantly (or because target is cleaning it or the duration) and most condition need crit% to proc.

Besides all that, condition damage is only useful if you are alone, if another player is also causing condition damage they are pretty much canceling each other, while with power they only add.

EDIT: But I agree that make defensive builds using cond damage is easier and more effective.

They created the whole problem when they put in Dire and decided you can have full tank and spank without having to sacrifice anything.

The problem has been here since launch and it is a big problem.

There is a reason why condition builds dominate amongst roamers and duelers, because they only have to invest into 3 attribute lines as opposed to 4/5.

1. Condition damage
2. toughess
3. vitality (or healing)

VS

1. power
2. precision
3. crit damage
4. toughness
5. vitality (or healing).

Condition duration really doesn’t count since there are so many ways to spam conditions (bleed on crit, etc). You can get a massive 40% boost from pizza which would be the equivalent of something like a +300 precision, +30% crit damage food for power.

Sube Dai.8496:

Substance E.4852:

Belzebu.3912:

Condition alone is as bad as power alone, you need cond duration to make sure the damage will be on the target and to get big bleeding/torment stacks, also you need to be able to re-apply conds constantly (or because target is cleaning it or the duration) and most condition need crit% to proc.

Besides all that, condition damage is only useful if you are alone, if another player is also causing condition damage they are pretty much canceling each other, while with power they only add.

EDIT: But I agree that make defensive builds using cond damage is easier and more effective.

They created the whole problem when they put in Dire and decided you can have full tank and spank without having to sacrifice anything.

The problem has been here since launch and it is a big problem.

There is a reason why condition builds dominate amongst roamers and duelers, because they only have to invest into 3 attribute lines as opposed to 4/5.

1. Condition damage
2. toughess
3. vitality (or healing)

VS

1. power
2. precision
3. crit damage
4. toughness
5. vitality (or healing).

Condition duration really doesn’t count since there are so many ways to spam conditions (bleed on crit, etc). You can get a massive 40% boost from pizza which would be the equivalent of something like a +300 precision, +30% crit damage food for power.

Bleed on crit you say?

The way I read it is that you want you cake and eat too. You want a high DPS, high burst, high survivability build without sacrificing anything. I run a dire build on my necro and let me tell you I certainly don’t find it to be over powered and I’m certainly not seeing a lot of DPS. I run it mainly for PvE where it’s a good soloing build and in WvW it’s not as useful, but is good for zerg busting during raids, especially when defending.

The other thing you really have to consider, especially in a zerg or when partied up, is that conditions are only really useful again tougher foes. Regular mobs, or even veterans don’t have enough HP to actually build a stack of conditions on them, so in the end, you’ve done very little damage compared to that of high DPS members in your party which, at least is used to, affects the quality of the loot. Where conditions come in to their own is for tougher mobs, say elites or better, where one actually has time to bleed them and apply condition stacks. But as others have already mentioned, this is limited to a max of 25 stacks per condition and only to those who apply the most powerful conditions. To me this quite limits the condition build compared to a max DPS build, which suffers from no such limits. I usually get damage in because I’m usually among the most powerful conditimancers in an group, but I still think it’s a crappy way to deal with things, to exclude those who aren’t powerful enough.

Substance E.4852:

They created the whole problem when they put in Dire and decided you can have full tank and spank without having to sacrifice anything.

Dire has has the same serious limitations as Carrion (Which gives you ~32000hp when speced for it) except, god forbid, you gain a little more survivability, something most of the caster classes in this game were shamefully lacking. Even the necro, with tons of HP and life force bar, typically goes down way too easy. Aside from the 25 stack limit and max damage dealers only getting credit, other limits on condition builds include inanimate objects like doors (WvW) and mounds (AC P3). You can’t apply conditions to such things making the build quite useless. You can’t use marks, or maybe even AOE in general, on most, if not all, world bosses, seriously limiting the viability of such builds in such situations. 6 of my 10 attacks are AOE, 4 of those are marks which have to be triggered. I usually take on the roll of healing or man other weapons if they’re part if it, such as the mortars during Shatterer.

Don’t get me wrong, I think casters should be squishy, but they should also be the highest damage dealers in the game. Since that’s not the case, and that would make all those zerkers cranky, then they had to balance it to make casters weaker, but tougher than they should be.

Bleed on crit you say?

There’s a necro trait that will do this.

It could be even easier:

• reduce condi duration on runes and food to the same level as crit-dmg.
• include condi duration as an armor stat (again same % than crit-dmg).
• switch thoughness on rabid gear with vitality
• no condition damage mainstat with thoughness majorstat

This will make condition builds less tanky and if you want to deal max condition damage, you have to go full glasscannon.

Btw. stacking condi/vita/thougness only works on some really broken builds, i.e. spirit ranger, cause they dont need crits to proc their strong conditions.

Something really needs to be done about this though. Running apothecary gear compared to cleric poses the same issue. Cleric gear limits you to supporting your allies and dealing little damage, where apothecary lets you stack bleeds/torment/etc and deal massive damage while supporting your team, allowing for simultaneous offensive and defensive play. It’s dire and apothecary gear that are the biggest issues, and this is coming from someone who’s used both. I don’t like being invincible, it’s just not fun for anyone.

And then none of this matters one twit in PVE because of the hard cap on condition stacking…

Viking Jorun.5413:

Something really needs to be done about this though. Running apothecary gear compared to cleric poses the same issue. Cleric gear limits you to supporting your allies and dealing little damage, where apothecary lets you stack bleeds/torment/etc and deal massive damage while supporting your team, allowing for simultaneous offensive and defensive play. It’s dire and apothecary gear that are the biggest issues, and this is coming from someone who’s used both. I don’t like being invincible, it’s just not fun for anyone.

Exactly. I play apoth ranger and its annoyingly OP. Still. Even after the pet nerf. I want to play power and live.

Removing the stat combos with condition damage and toughness/vit/healing could do amazing things for the meta.

Imagine the outcry though if you changed people’s stat combos…

To be clear here, we are only talking about PvP end duels, right?
Because bunker condition in any other scenario (dungeons, PVE, group/organized WvW) is just a waste, 2 or 20 players with similar build cause almost the same damage.

I used to play a cond/regen trapper ranger, roaming alone in WvW and when I was the only cond damager in a dungeon it was great, but now I play a power build and I feel so much more useful in any place (barely changing my survivability), and higher crit gives so many survival or even more offensive possibilities, food that grant HP or Might on crit, sigils that grant on crit, HP , AoE explosion (modified by power) , might, vuln, cond cleanse.

If you try to go a glass cannon cond build (rabid/rampager) to also use the crit possibilities, your limitations will be even higher, since you won’t be able to contribute with high damage and won’t have enough survival.

Sube Dai.8496:

Viking Jorun.5413:

Something really needs to be done about this though. Running apothecary gear compared to cleric poses the same issue. Cleric gear limits you to supporting your allies and dealing little damage, where apothecary lets you stack bleeds/torment/etc and deal massive damage while supporting your team, allowing for simultaneous offensive and defensive play. It’s dire and apothecary gear that are the biggest issues, and this is coming from someone who’s used both. I don’t like being invincible, it’s just not fun for anyone.

Exactly. I play apoth ranger and its annoyingly OP. Still. Even after the pet nerf. I want to play power and live.

Removing the stat combos with condition damage and toughness/vit/healing could do amazing things for the meta.

Imagine the outcry though if you changed people’s stat combos…

Healing/toughness/vit was in-game at launch and was just as powerful and stupidly OP as Healing/Toughness/Condi. They won’t add it back though.

digiowl.9620:

And then none of this matters one twit in PVE because of the hard cap on condition stacking…

This!! Those complaining about dire really don’t seem to understand how condition damage works. You can only have 25 stacks, total, now pretty much every class can cause conditions, especially bleeding. So if I’m in a group with a few others and they’re more powerful then me, I can apply my conditions, but only the 25 strongest will be counted in the stack. It doesn’t matter where they come from. So once the 25 is reached, if my conditions are weaker and others are maintaining the full 25 stack, mine never get counted. I might as well not be casting. Power does not suffer from this limitation. You can have 50 warriors of various levels and strengths all doing physical damage all at the same time and it all gets counted.

Dire works well in PvE solo roaming and to a lesser extent in dungeons if you’re the lone primary CD dealer because it does allow you to contribute without dying pretty much immediately. AND, it’s really only useful against stronger foes because it takes time to build the condition stacks. Because of the hard cap, it does not work well for large zergs in PvE, say temple runs. Because of the hard cap, it does not work well in WvW for zergs and is mostly useful when defending keeps/towers when you can hide in the battlements and drop AOE on to invading zergs..

Put five powerful necros all donning dire gear against a champion. How fast will it go down? Not nearly as fast as five warriors will put it down. Why is this? Max power builds do not have a cap on how much damage they can cause. 5 necros can stack 25 bleeds very quickly, then it’s just redundant after that. If I time it right, I can maintain 15 stacks myself, probably the full 25 if I use food. But due to the hard cap, the damage is still much less than a max power build warrior can deal, again, due to there being no limit on power. How can anyone claim CD is overpowered, when the damage is so limited. Back before they implemented the 25 stack limit, you might have had an argument.

I don’t know why there is so much controversy over allowing casters a little survivability. To go pure dire, casters have to give up quite a lot, for me, I had to give up ~7000hp, which is still a lot, even for a necro, and I had to give up nearly all my power (Carrion gear vs. Dire gear and Necromancer Sigils vs. Undead Sigils). Essentially the power stat on everything is replaced with toughness. It is a good build for solo roaming PvE, especially higher level zones, which is what I primarily do. If my main focus was group play or WvW I would have a vastly different build.

Leamas.5803:

digiowl.9620:

And then none of this matters one twit in PVE because of the hard cap on condition stacking…

This!! Those complaining about dire really don’t seem to understand how condition damage works. You can only have 25 stacks, total, now pretty much every class can cause conditions, especially bleeding. So if I’m in a group with a few others and they’re more powerful then me, I can apply my conditions, but only the 25 strongest will be counted in the stack. It doesn’t matter where they come from. So once the 25 is reached, if my conditions are weaker and others are maintaining the full 25 stack, mine never get counted. I might as well not be casting. Power does not suffer from this limitation. You can have 50 warriors of various levels and strengths all doing physical damage all at the same time and it all gets counted.

Dire works well in PvE solo roaming and to a lesser extent in dungeons if you’re the lone primary CD dealer because it does allow you to contribute without dying pretty much immediately. AND, it’s really only useful against stronger foes because it takes time to build the condition stacks. Because of the hard cap, it does not work well for large zergs in PvE, say temple runs. Because of the hard cap, it does not work well in WvW for zergs and is mostly useful when defending keeps/towers when you can hide in the battlements and drop AOE on to invading zergs..

Put five powerful necros all donning dire gear against a champion. How fast will it go down? Not nearly as fast as five warriors will put it down. Why is this? Max power builds do not have a cap on how much damage they can cause. 5 necros can stack 25 bleeds very quickly, then it’s just redundant after that. If I time it right, I can maintain 15 stacks myself, probably the full 25 if I use food. But due to the hard cap, the damage is still much less than a max power build warrior can deal, again, due to there being no limit on power. How can anyone claim CD is overpowered, when the damage is so limited. Back before they implemented the 25 stack limit, you might have had an argument.

I don’t know why there is so much controversy over allowing casters a little survivability. To go pure dire, casters have to give up quite a lot, for me, I had to give up ~7000hp, which is still a lot, even for a necro, and I had to give up nearly all my power (Carrion gear vs. Dire gear and Necromancer Sigils vs. Undead Sigils). Essentially the power stat on everything is replaced with toughness. It is a good build for solo roaming PvE, especially higher level zones, which is what I primarily do. If my main focus was group play or WvW I would have a vastly different build.

Everything you mentioned is irrelevant when it comes to balance. Dire gear wasn’t needed, it’s just more cheese over the top. PvE gear balance only matters in small scale WvW where dire is totally ridiculous. No one should care if CD doesn’t do much damage in PvE or WvW zergs it’s totally unchallenging gameplay no one should do.

Honestly the woes of the different stat combinations could have been avoided if the game would have been designed to allow players to distribute stats however they want according to their build with no cost.

It makes the players feel like they have more control, and it would avoid people feeling pigeon-holed into builds they’d rather not play due not being able to experiment.

How people end up feeling about something is honestly more important than anything else. Social pressure dominates. The more people that like you, your company, what you do, etc, the more ingrained something becomes as acceptable and the more people you reach.

Condition damage does not work well in Pve, so make it even weaker?
I somewhat agree that it gives the squishy professions a fighting chance in small groups or 1-1. In zergs like 99% of wvw it is worse than in pve, because untill the zerg breaks up you do almost no damage. So now you say that power should rule zerg and small fights? Noway..

Also should be pointed out that world bosses (dragons) can’t be criticaled(?) and because of the condi cap conditions are extremely underpowered in those events. The new Tequatl for instance pretty much requires PTV, none of my condi characters even bother showing up anymore.

Belzebu.3912:

To be clear here, we are only talking about PvP end duels, right?
Because bunker condition in any other scenario (dungeons, PVE, group/organized WvW) is just a waste, 2 or 20 players with similar build cause almost the same damage.

He is writing about c/v/t, so PvE and WvW. Cause it is no PvP stat

The only equivalent with only condition damage and no other offensive stat is settler with thoughness mainstat so there is really low damage.

Wasbunny.6531:

Also should be pointed out that world bosses (dragons) can’t be criticaled(?) and because of the condi cap conditions are extremely underpowered in those events. The new Tequatl for instance pretty much requires PTV, none of my condi characters even bother showing up anymore.

They’ve done that to try and make pvt and clerics useful.

Sube Dai.8496:

Wasbunny.6531:

Also should be pointed out that world bosses (dragons) can’t be criticaled(?) and because of the condi cap conditions are extremely underpowered in those events. The new Tequatl for instance pretty much requires PTV, none of my condi characters even bother showing up anymore.

They’ve done that to try and make pvt and clerics useful.

I don’t think ANet had any specific intentions with it, it is just and artifact of the world boss dragons being “objects”. And with the reworked fight it became a DPS race for the first 25%, thanks to the timer.

nicknamenick.2437:

You can see the problem here.. they are both very defensive builds but stacking only power isnt doing that much of burst damage, if you compare this with condition damage its just to easy to get burst condition damage + allot of defensive stats..

You do not know what your talking about. One thing condition damage absolutely is not, it bursty or burst damage. Condition damage is steady dots, while power direct damage is equivalent damage and in many cases more damage, simply applied upon use of the skill.

coglin.1867:

nicknamenick.2437:

You can see the problem here.. they are both very defensive builds but stacking only power isnt doing that much of burst damage, if you compare this with condition damage its just to easy to get burst condition damage + allot of defensive stats..

You do not know what your talking about. One thing condition damage absolutely is not, it bursty or burst damage. Condition damage is steady dots, while power direct damage is equivalent damage and in many cases more damage, simply applied upon use of the skill.

I think the bursty here is not so much about huge amount of damage in a small amount of time, but a huge number of varied conditions in a small amount of time. Enough conditions most likely to overwhelm the cleansing capacity of the target. After that the target may well be considered dead man walking.

I would say that this is true for some classes particularly the Necro, they can burst multiple people down incredibly fast while having a kittenload of tankiness, and condition removers don’t work well since they can continuously spam multiple conditions.

But It’s not so much for the other classes though: Mesmer relies on primarily on confusion and retaliation which can be countered by simply not using skilld when it’s up. Warrior relies primarily on Bleed which take a lot of time to stack and can be clean off easily. Engineer can deal kittenload of condition damage but they can be killed with ease unlike Necro. Thief uses Blind and Bleed which make them a less durable but more annoying Warrior. So all in all Necro conditions or tankiness need to be tone down a bit, the others not so much.

Another thing that I could add is Power/Crit builds actually have edge when fighting against conditions due to the fact that they don’t have any wasted stat in toughness + they generally have considerably higher dps (unless u bring the {extremely tanky }Necro to the table ) + conditions (except Necro conditions ) can be cleaned with ease if u equip the right skills ( dont know about other classes but Warrior has an 8 sec -100% condition duration and Mesmer has a skill that transfer 3 conditions back to the enemy, both can be brutal if u are in a high dps build )

Dragonax.6487:

I would say that this is true for some classes particularly the Necro, they can burst multiple people down incredibly fast while having a kittenload of tankiness, and condition removers don’t work well since they can continuously spam multiple conditions.

Again, not nearly as fast as a max DPS build will put people down, especially if you can cleans conditions. And if I can put multiple people down at once, it’s usually because they’ve got nothing to mitigate the CD. To reduce the amount of condition damage a necro does completely breaks the build. Might as well remove the entire profession from the game. Again what we seem to be talking about here are players who seem to think they should be invincible and able to stand there and deal with all conditions without dying. That’s not how it is nor how it should be.

jalmari.3906:

Everything you mentioned is irrelevant when it comes to balance. Dire gear wasn’t needed, it’s just more cheese over the top. PvE gear balance only matters in small scale WvW where dire is totally ridiculous. No one should care if CD doesn’t do much damage in PvE or WvW zergs it’s totally unchallenging gameplay no one should do.

I’m sure CD users would argue the opposite.

There is nothing wrong with dire stats and it balances the lack of power and pretty much no physical DPS, with some extra toughness. Trust me it’s not all that tough, but at least I’m not a one hit kill now when it comes to bosses like I was with carrion stats. A lot of health is useless without any toughness and even more so since they changed how death shroud works. You know, if you don’t want to deal with conditions or magic users or learn how to survive, go play Counterstrike or something like that where everyone is the same and all you have to worry about is how good your aim is.

I would argue that if condition damage is nerfed that DPS classes such as warriors should not cause any conditions. There’s a terrible imbalance when some of the professions are designed to rely on conditions, AND there is a condition cap, but all professions can apply conditions essentially weakening a condition build that has to fight for those 25 stacks with everyone else. You can’t make it any weaker without destroying the build, or the entire profession in the case of the necro.

I thought it was already established;
Power = PvE
Condition = PvP

I dont want to start an zerker vs crappy equipment argument, but it really bothers me seen an necro/engi with their PvP set in my dungeons runs…… specially if there is more than one….

Yes, thats the main reason people are so afraid and hate getting those classes (and why nobody asks for them) in dungeons, is because, sadly, some people still use PvP sets on PvE enviroments.

Leave the current things as it is, conditions are insanely efficient in PvP, if you are going to make these threads then at least make power based builds as strong in PvP or learn to have 2 armor sets like everyone else

Also, if you want to make precision affect condition, then you have to also get affected by toughness and armor. Right now conditions are incredibly overpowered vs non-vitality stackers because if you have a base health of 11k (eles, guardians, thieves) then conditions will literally burst you down. My biggest problem with condition is that unlike power/pres/crit, you also get access to good defensive stats like toughness and vitality from traits and equipment, THATS SO UNFAIR FOR POWER BASED BUILDS that you simply have no idea, so no, you cant have god mode with conditions, learn to deal with its drawbacks, which are considerably less than a power build

Condition is fine in dungeons and tends to work well on elites/champions where you have time to build your stacks. But yes, if you have more than one primary condition dealer, then you can tend to run in to issues in dungeons because you hit the condition damage limit (Mentioned several times above) very quickly and then it’s casting in to nothingness after that. It’s no different than running a dungeon with all zerkers. There will be issues, though perhaps less due to having no limit placed on the amount of damage power builds can deal. Dungeon teams should have a balance of those who can deal a lot of direct damage and those who can deal/remove conditions and heal. This way, you’re extending survivability of the party while improving the overall damage dealt. A larger problem in dungeons are those who don’t know how to use their profession or just lay there waiting for a res.

For PvE, conditions are fine. I solo cleared most of the map, including Orr, with a carrion build and there a little effort. And still have no problems solo roaming anywhere on the map.

I don’t need two sets of gear, unless they implement an alternate build tab (With traits). Changing gear/traits is too much of a neuscence for how often I switch back and forth between WvW/PvE. I understand and accept the strengths and weaknesses of my build.

Back to dungeons…if people don’t want me in their dungeon party, that’s their problem, not mine. A successful dungeon party is the responsibility of the one forming the party. The last time I tried AC P3, which is typically not bad and was very easy the last time I did it, I was the last to join a pug and before we even went in, I could see it was a terrible mix doomed to fail. It had two necro’s, two thieves and the last was either a ranger or warrior, and when we got in no one was calling targets consistently and everyone was kind of running all over the place…it was mess. I rarely have long periods of time which I can play uninterrupted, so I’m by no means a big dungeon goer and might do one every few months and even I could see this was a doomed group, but I went anyway just for the entertainment value (Mostly because I’m sadistic) and they tried to blame me for the failure…tools. LOL

Conditions aren’t fine in PvE… you can only have 1 condition user in a group and that is a major flaw in GW2. Even then their damage can be deleted by direct damage classes.

A zerker geared mesmer using Phantasmal Duelist will crit about 80% of the time with fury up. Now look what trait they normally to get if they use a zerker build. Sharper Images … this trait lets illusions do a bleed on each crit. Meaning a possible of 8 with the duelist and 12 with the warden. That is atleast 24-30 bleeds possible but lets say 15-20… now that is a lot of damage to take away/delete from the condition spec people in the group when you aren’t even geared for conditions.

When you can have 5 direct damage dealers in a group and only 1 condition user to be effective… It’s a broken mechanic and it hasn’t been fixed since release.

Don’t forget the ascended gear scaling problem. Power builds that use zerker gear gain a 17% dmg boost when upgrading to full ascended gear. Condition users gain 5%…

Condition damage scales very poorly, is limited in the stats it can use, doesn’t stack with other players, and has a cap. conditions are also frequently cleansed off mobs/bosses, have reduced effectiveness, and can’t apply burst.

Condition damage is inferior in pretty much every way and needs a serious buff in PvE as well as a complete technical overhaul.

Nijjion.2069:

Conditions aren’t fine in PvE… you can only have 1 condition user in a group and that is a major flaw in GW2. Even then their damage can be deleted by direct damage classes.

A zerker geared mesmer using Phantasmal Duelist will crit about 80% of the time with fury up. Now look what trait they normally to get if they use a zerker build. Sharper Images … this trait lets illusions do a bleed on each crit. Meaning a possible of 8 with the duelist and 12 with the warden. That is atleast 24-30 bleeds possible but lets say 15-20… now that is a lot of damage to take away/delete from the condition spec people in the group when you aren’t even geared for conditions.

When you can have 5 direct damage dealers in a group and only 1 condition user to be effective… It’s a broken mechanic and it hasn’t been fixed since release.

I’m not entirely sure this is accurate. Yes, you can only have one in a group to be effective, and this IS a serious problem that needs to be addressed AND the fact that non-condition builds can still apply conditions is also a problem in that it weakens a condition user. However, it’s my understanding that in that 25 stack of conditions, only the 25 strongest are counted. So, in theory, pure condition users should have much higher CD than a power build that uses CD as a secondary attack and will get first stab, so to speak, with any remaining slots filled by weaker conditions. However, I do agree that the mechanic is broken. The stack limit should either be raised or condition dealers given their own private stack. I’d be happy with a guaranteed private stack of 20. The obvious, and easiest solution is to raise or remove the stack limit so that it’s more in line with power builds, and will allow condition users to actually team up together. Again, power builds suffer from no such limitations. I remember the glory days of bosses having 50-60, or more, stacks of bleeding. Realistically, only bosses have enough HP to even come close to exceeding the 25 so I never saw the need of capping the condition stack so low.

Another solution would be to cap power builds in a similar way and adjust elite/champion/boss HP accordingly. Then give power users an option similar to dire. This would force more group variety since having all max-power warriors in a group would be no more effective than having all max-condi necros in a group. It would allow condition users to be more viable options, even required, in areas such as dungeons. But I suspect this would be wildly unpopular since a majority of the community uses power builds and really doesn’t understand how condition builds work.

digiowl.9620:

coglin.1867:

nicknamenick.2437:

You can see the problem here.. they are both very defensive builds but stacking only power isnt doing that much of burst damage, if you compare this with condition damage its just to easy to get burst condition damage + allot of defensive stats..

You do not know what your talking about. One thing condition damage absolutely is not, it bursty or burst damage. Condition damage is steady dots, while power direct damage is equivalent damage and in many cases more damage, simply applied upon use of the skill.

I think the bursty here is not so much about huge amount of damage in a small amount of time, but a huge number of varied conditions in a small amount of time. Enough conditions most likely to overwhelm the cleansing capacity of the target. After that the target may well be considered dead man walking.

Isn’t that exactly what direct damage does though? It does more damage then toughness can negate? I fail to see the validity of this argument. Of coarse condition damage is supposed to overwhelm ones ability to cleanse it. If cleansing could keep up with conditions, then it would be a bit pointless to call it condition damage.

I fail to see why it is okay for professions to do 2k direct damage with a skill but people take issue when someone applies a condition that eventually does 2k damage.

coglin.1867:

digiowl.9620:

coglin.1867:

nicknamenick.2437:

You can see the problem here.. they are both very defensive builds but stacking only power isnt doing that much of burst damage, if you compare this with condition damage its just to easy to get burst condition damage + allot of defensive stats..

You do not know what your talking about. One thing condition damage absolutely is not, it bursty or burst damage. Condition damage is steady dots, while power direct damage is equivalent damage and in many cases more damage, simply applied upon use of the skill.

I think the bursty here is not so much about huge amount of damage in a small amount of time, but a huge number of varied conditions in a small amount of time. Enough conditions most likely to overwhelm the cleansing capacity of the target. After that the target may well be considered dead man walking.

Isn’t that exactly what direct damage does though? It does more damage then toughness can negate? I fail to see the validity of this argument. Of coarse condition damage is supposed to overwhelm ones ability to cleanse it. If cleansing could keep up with conditions, then it would be a bit pointless to call it condition damage.

I fail to see why it is okay for professions to do 2k direct damage with a skill but people take issue when someone applies a condition that eventually does 2k damage.

It’s because most power users don’t understand conditions and think they should be able to stand there and cleanse indefinitely. I never understood this since they’d certainly not allow a direct damage dealer to stand there and hack at them nor would they expect to take it without taking damage.

@Leamas nope it’s the oldest bleeds casted on the mob that get deleted… granted they are about to go off maybe in 5-6 seconds but still that can be 500-600 damage each.

It would be pretty unfair if you think about it in open world bosses one person having 25 stacks of might having what like 2500 condition damage and not letting anyone else do damage with conditions?

If bleeds stack were to go to 20 the condition damage needs to be buffed as at to even 25 bleeds to a lot less dps and direct damage.

Actually a direct damage cap would be awesome to balance… maybe have 10k a second cap. So when a group does more than 10k damage in that second the mob will be immune. Once that second is up damage can be done again.

Nijjion.2069:

If bleeds stack were to go to 20 the condition damage needs to be buffed as at to even 25 bleeds to a lot less dps and direct damage.

I was actually talking about personal stacks of 20 (as just an arbitrary number, even 15), not a shared stack in any way. Only a handful of builds can maintain more than 10 at a time on their own anyway, so 20 should be sufficient for even the most extreme CD builds. But, like you said, something has to be done to balance group play since as it stands it heavily favors power builds.