Guild Wars 2

Conditions Today
Conditions have become a major part of the game now especially since conditions have been revamped and such, but this leads to issues. I’ll be talking from a Ranger’s perspective because it’s my main. I’m not trying to cry about Rangers, but it’s the only perspective I have.

Issues:

1. Players have too much access to conditions. By this, I mean that players can stack insane condition stacks in seconds, dealing ungodly damage.

ex. Reaper can stack 35+ stacks of poison….
ex. Guardian can stack 15+ stacks of burning…
ex. Rangers can stack 35+ stacks of bleed… (mad king + hunter’s call)

2. Conditions, like vulnerability, has become devalued. Nearly every profession has access to vulnerability, and those skills/utilities/etc that do apply huge stacks. This means nearly any class can amass the maximum number of vulnerability stacks.

ex. A vast majority of “critical hit” traits apply vulnerability.
ex. Skills like “On My Mark!” 10 stacks. Rapid Fire 10 stacks.

The same can be said about the boon, swiftness.

3. Skills should not apply multiple, arbitrary, random conditions.

Yes, some skills should have access to multiple conditions, but very, very few should, as this further devalues conditions. I’m all for skills having access to powerful conditions, but multiple condition skills should not be so prevalent or powerful.

Let’s look at the Berserker’s Primal Burst skill: Skull Grinder, just as an example. This skill applies: blind, weakness, confusion, cripple, daze. Yes, this skill should be more powerful than normal weapon or utility skills being a part of the Berserker’s class mechanic, but, really 5 conditions. Being that you can add conditions to skills with sigils, runes, and traits completely devalues any other classes’ ability to provide those conditions. Imagine a Berserker taking a sigil of ice (chill on hit), sigil of blight (poison on critical hit), and Rendering Strikes (vulnerability on critical hit). That’s a total of 8 conditions on one skill, not to mention runes.

4. Classes that lack condition cleanse will feel the effects of condition spam more often than those high condition-removal classes. (I will ignore runes and sigils that remove conditions for simplicity sake.)

Rangers, for example, have two traits that remove condition(s) both in the same trait line, and only one can be equipped at a time. Rangers have access to one utility skill that removes condition(s).

Elementalists, for example, have access to three traits that remove conditions, and all three can be equipped at the same time. Elementalists also have access to four utility skills that remove conditions from themselves and allies.

Conditions cleanse should be a available to all classes and within a reasonable spectrum of each other (i.e. One class shouldn’t have two cleanse while another has seven). A reasonable balance, in my opinion, would be 3-4 per profession (not including sigils and runes). I feel this way because: having near infinite condition cleanse is basically immune to condition based builds, and having nearly no condition cleanse is basically instantly killed by 35 stack poison builds.

Yes, if you forgo taking your condition cleanse in lieu of something else, you should be punished. No, you should not be punished if your class has next to no condition removal.

5. Classes should have obvious distinctions between what condtions they should be able to access and what conditions they shouldn’t be able to access (Runes and sigils aside).

Rangers should have access to ample bleed, cripple, and burning(torch). As they are an obvious and distinct part of the class. This is what creates a distint difference between classes, and it doesn’t create a conglomerate of every class having every condition. Yes, ANET loosely abides by this (i.e. there is no slow on Ranger), but it seems all classes are gaining access to every condition instead of having a distinct separation.

But Rangers shouldn’t have access to fear, torment, or confusion. As they are not what should be considered part of the class. Conditions like fear and torment should belong to classes similar to necromancer.

I remember watching Guild Wars 2 initial release trailer and seeing the Ranger’s Bonfire skill be shown, and saying “This will be an incredibly awesome fire skill” or “THE burning skill”; but, sadly, nearly every other fire source in the game provides a much better burning with addition effects. Yes, Bonfire has its place, but it’s very lackluster comparatively.

Final Thoughs
Conditions have their place, but they should be distinct, intentional, and powerful. I feel there are several ways to help right the ship:

1. Conditions should be limited. For example, no skill should apply 10 stacks of confusion.
2. Conditions should be intentional and not apply arbitrary conditions.
3. Short cooldown skills should have short duration conditions.
4. The more often a condition can be applied the shorter its duration should be.
5. Less powerful conditions should have longer durations. A skill that applies vulnerability should last longer than a chill skill.
6. There should be very, few multiple condition skills.
7. Skill that do apply multiple conditions should be coherent. For example, if there was a skill called “Burning Light”, it could apply a short duration blind and burn. It should not apply something like blind and torment.
8. No professions should not have access to all conditions.
9. Actions such as raising the vulnerability cap to 50 and lowering the damage increase to .5% should be considered in balancing, if the amount of stacks players can inflict remains the same.

The list goes on, but I think everyone has the point. Some of these points could be made about boons. If ANET has their head on straight about how the want to handle conditions, fine; but as of right now, it’s out of control.

Thoughts?

“Conditions have their place, but they should be distinct, intentional, and powerful. I feel there are several ways to help right the ship:
1. Conditions should be limited. For example, no skill should apply 10 stacks of confusion.
2. Conditions should be intentional and not apply arbitrary conditions.
3. Short cooldown skills should have short duration conditions.
4. The more often a condition can be applied the shorter its duration should be.
5. Less powerful conditions should have longer durations. A skill that applies vulnerability should last longer than a chill skill.
6. There should be very, few multiple condition skills.
7. Skill that do apply multiple conditions should be coherent. For example, if there was a skill called “Burning Light”, it could apply a short duration blind and burn. It should not apply something like blind and torment.
8. No professions should not have access to all conditions.
9. Actions such as raising the vulnerability cap to 50 and lowering the damage increase to .5% should be considered in balancing, if the amount of stacks players can inflict remains the same.”

kitten ! finally someone that thinks for all the game!!!

im really happy to read this thread!

im engineer – i know i can apply with bombs heavy conditions – but its risky to play bombs in melee – so could be even fair enough – but still…
5 stacks confusion every 18s – in a power build who cares – but in a hybrid or condition build? or burning trait or bombs – 10s cd -

heavy condition? then heavy cd – simple and easy!

perma confusion (mesmers now) or perma burning (guardians)

we arent speaking of 100-120 tick a second – we are speaking for ticks from 300 to 500 with burning or from 500 to 2k of confusion!

and they apply those conditions in tons of ways – traits – -skill and then runes etc etc

funghetto.1584:

kitten ! finally someone that thinks for all the game!!!

im really happy to read this thread!

im engineer – i know i can apply with bombs heavy conditions – but its risky to play bombs in melee – so could be even fair enough – but still…

Thanks for reading! I’m glad someone agrees that there are issues with conditions.

well thought out post op i agree with you totally and i dont have anymore to add

So basically you think everyone should play a power build and that condition builds should not be viable?

Even with the current state conditions deal significantly less dps than power specs. we need ways to apply MORE conditions, not less.

The exception is the 3 current burn classes, ele, guard and engineer can stack pretty crazy burn burst.

Well, firstly, for maiming ranger, I’m impressed that you don’t know about all of our condi cleanse.

Troll ungent- cleanse 2
Sharpening stone- cleanse 2
Lightning reflexes- cleanse 2 movement impeding
Signet of the wild: cleanse 1 every 10 seconds or full clear

As far as traits I’m curious to know which one you are noting, and you might be forgetting shared anguish which transfers movement impeding conditions to your pets

I believe sword 2 is also a immobilize break as well as greatsword 3

Also, the damage done by condis is in many ways still inferior to flat damage done by zerker builds of the same class.

I think that having condis actually greatly increases build diversity too, with players being forced to decide between toughness to counter physical damage, or vitality to counter condis.

So basically you think everyone should play a power build and that condition builds should not be viable?
Even with the current state conditions deal significantly less dps than power specs. we need ways to apply MORE conditions, not less.
The exception is the 3 current burn classes, ele, guard and engineer can stack pretty crazy burn burst.

this is the point! to be honest guardians in some builds can apply more burning than eles and engineer – and to be honest that “incendiary powder” so op of engineer – is with a 10s cd – on critical hits – and single target

every class has the “famous burst” – warriors with that berserk stance and endure pain? make ridiculos every kind of condition builds so…

to be honest only complaining on how easy are to apply and which conditions are applied – heavy conditions burning-confusion

until now – only class that had “pressure” with conditions was necromancer – now eles – guardians – engineer – mesmers – rangers …

so something changed ….

InsidiousWaffle.7086:

Well, firstly, for maiming ranger, I’m impressed that you don’t know about all of our condi cleanse.

Troll ungent- cleanse 2
Sharpening stone- cleanse 2

Those only remove conditions if you take the trait he mentioned, which prohibits you from taking the other condition-cleansing trait. Because they’re in the same trait line at the same level (grandmaster). It also really hurts build diversity because you MUST take that trait line if you want reliable condition cleanses.

Healing Spring used to clear conditions, until they converted it to a trap. It still does if you can get the trap portion to trigger. But if the initial heal portion tops off your HP, then the trap portion doesn’t trigger, and you never get the condition cleanse.

My most frequent mode of death now is I get cripple/bleed/burn/whatever put on me, I use Healing Spring, the initial heal puts my HP to full, meaning I never get the condition cleanse, and I get killed. (If your hp drops while you’re in the HS trap, you have to move out of the trap and back in to trigger it and get the condition cleanse. Which is rather difficult when you’re crippled and quickly being beat to death.)

This used to be the ranger’s best heal, but its current state has made it the second worst. The dorky trap mechanic might’ve been acceptable when you could pre-set up to 3 healing spring “traps” for later use. But that was immediately “fixed” to a max 1 trap in the next patch, while the condition cleanse problem remained unaddressed. If they can’t make the trap trigger if you’re not at full hp or you have conditions on you, they need to make it so using the skill also cleanses some conditions.

Lightning reflexes- cleanse 2 movement impeding

The immobilize clear was added to this skill because it was silly/stupid to have a skill designed to make you leap back out of danger, but could be completely nullified with an immobilize.

Signet of the wild: cleanse 1 every 10 seconds or full clear

That is the lone utility skill he mentioned.

As far as traits I’m curious to know which one you are noting, and you might be forgetting shared anguish which transfers movement impeding conditions to your pets

That doesn’t transfer conditions. It transfers control effects like stun, knockback, and is equivalent to a stun breaker, not a condition cleanse. And it seems to be bugged at the moment. Or maybe it’s because Anet keeps adding mobs which repeatedly apply multiple control effects in quick succession, and the trait only transfers the first application to the pet before going on a 60 sec cooldown. (Side-effect of changing Stability to stacks.)

There is a ranger trait which removes blindness, cripple, and poison on dodges. Probably the weakest conditions out there.

I believe sword 2 is also a immobilize break as well as greatsword 3

Nope. They don’t clear any immobilizes, control effects, or conditions. In fact GS 3 is bugged in that if you’re immobilized during the middle of its leap, all your skills are disabled until you die or logout. Actually I think this bug affects all leap skills, it’s just more apparent on ranger GS 3 because it’s the longest duration leap.

ricky markham.8173:

well thought out post op i agree with you totally and i dont have anymore to add

Thanks!

ZudetGambeous.9573:

So basically you think everyone should play a power build and that condition builds should not be viable?

Even with the current state conditions deal significantly less dps than power specs. we need ways to apply MORE conditions, not less.

The exception is the 3 current burn classes, ele, guard and engineer can stack pretty crazy burn burst.

No, I clearly stated that condition builds should be powerful, but the current game design that every skill should apply arbitrary conditions is out of control. You should have to intentionally apply conditions and not just them be a side effect of whatever skill your using. And no, if you get a high stack of any condition, including low-damage conditions, such as poison, it will do much more damage than any physical dps class.

Solandri.9640:

InsidiousWaffle.7086:

Well, firstly, for maiming ranger, I’m impressed that you don’t know about all of our condi cleanse.

Troll ungent- cleanse 2
Sharpening stone- cleanse 2

Those only remove conditions if you take the trait he mentioned, which prohibits you from taking the other condition-cleansing trait. Because they’re in the same trait line at the same level (grandmaster). It also really hurts build diversity because you MUST take that trait line if you want reliable condition cleanses.

Healing Spring used to clear conditions, until they converted it to a trap. It still does if you can get the trap portion to trigger. But if the initial heal portion tops off your HP, then the trap portion doesn’t trigger, and you never get the condition cleanse.

My most frequent mode of death now is I get cripple/bleed/burn/whatever put on me, I use Healing Spring, the initial heal puts my HP to full, meaning I never get the condition cleanse, and I get killed. (If your hp drops while you’re in the HS trap, you have to move out of the trap and back in to trigger it and get the condition cleanse. Which is rather difficult when you’re crippled and quickly being beat to death.)

This used to be the ranger’s best heal, but its current state has made it the second worst. The dorky trap mechanic might’ve been acceptable when you could pre-set up to 3 healing spring “traps” for later use. But that was immediately “fixed” to a max 1 trap in the next patch, while the condition cleanse problem remained unaddressed. If they can’t make the trap trigger if you’re not at full hp or you have conditions on you, they need to make it so using the skill also cleanses some conditions.

Lightning reflexes- cleanse 2 movement impeding

The immobilize clear was added to this skill because it was silly/stupid to have a skill designed to make you leap back out of danger, but could be completely nullified with an immobilize.

Signet of the wild: cleanse 1 every 10 seconds or full clear

That is the lone utility skill he mentioned.

As far as traits I’m curious to know which one you are noting, and you might be forgetting shared anguish which transfers movement impeding conditions to your pets

That doesn’t transfer conditions. It transfers control effects like stun, knockback, and is equivalent to a stun breaker, not a condition cleanse. And it seems to be bugged at the moment. Or maybe it’s because Anet keeps adding mobs which repeatedly apply multiple control effects in quick succession, and the trait only transfers the first application to the pet before going on a 60 sec cooldown. (Side-effect of changing Stability to stacks.)

There is a ranger trait which removes blindness, cripple, and poison on dodges. Probably the weakest conditions out there.

I believe sword 2 is also a immobilize break as well as greatsword 3

Nope. They don’t clear any immobilizes, control effects, or conditions. In fact GS 3 is bugged in that if you’re immobilized during the middle of its leap, all your skills are disabled until you die or logout. Actually I think this bug affects all leap skills, it’s just more apparent on ranger GS 3 because it’s the longest duration leap.

Thank you for clarifying this for InsidiousWaffle.7086.

UnitedChaos.8364:

ricky markham.8173:

well thought out post op i agree with you totally and i dont have anymore to add

Thanks!

ZudetGambeous.9573:

So basically you think everyone should play a power build and that condition builds should not be viable?

Even with the current state conditions deal significantly less dps than power specs. we need ways to apply MORE conditions, not less.

The exception is the 3 current burn classes, ele, guard and engineer can stack pretty crazy burn burst.

No, I clearly stated that condition builds should be powerful, but the current game design that every skill should apply arbitrary conditions is out of control. You should have to intentionally apply conditions and not just them be a side effect of whatever skill your using. And no, if you get a high stack of any condition, including low-damage conditions, such as poison, it will do much more damage than any physical dps class.

Solandri.9640:

InsidiousWaffle.7086:

Well, firstly, for maiming ranger, I’m impressed that you don’t know about all of our condi cleanse.

Troll ungent- cleanse 2
Sharpening stone- cleanse 2

Those only remove conditions if you take the trait he mentioned, which prohibits you from taking the other condition-cleansing trait. Because they’re in the same trait line at the same level (grandmaster). It also really hurts build diversity because you MUST take that trait line if you want reliable condition cleanses.

Healing Spring used to clear conditions, until they converted it to a trap. It still does if you can get the trap portion to trigger. But if the initial heal portion tops off your HP, then the trap portion doesn’t trigger, and you never get the condition cleanse.

My most frequent mode of death now is I get cripple/bleed/burn/whatever put on me, I use Healing Spring, the initial heal puts my HP to full, meaning I never get the condition cleanse, and I get killed. (If your hp drops while you’re in the HS trap, you have to move out of the trap and back in to trigger it and get the condition cleanse. Which is rather difficult when you’re crippled and quickly being beat to death.)

This used to be the ranger’s best heal, but its current state has made it the second worst. The dorky trap mechanic might’ve been acceptable when you could pre-set up to 3 healing spring “traps” for later use. But that was immediately “fixed” to a max 1 trap in the next patch, while the condition cleanse problem remained unaddressed. If they can’t make the trap trigger if you’re not at full hp or you have conditions on you, they need to make it so using the skill also cleanses some conditions.

Lightning reflexes- cleanse 2 movement impeding

The immobilize clear was added to this skill because it was silly/stupid to have a skill designed to make you leap back out of danger, but could be completely nullified with an immobilize.

Signet of the wild: cleanse 1 every 10 seconds or full clear

That is the lone utility skill he mentioned.

As far as traits I’m curious to know which one you are noting, and you might be forgetting shared anguish which transfers movement impeding conditions to your pets

That doesn’t transfer conditions. It transfers control effects like stun, knockback, and is equivalent to a stun breaker, not a condition cleanse. And it seems to be bugged at the moment. Or maybe it’s because Anet keeps adding mobs which repeatedly apply multiple control effects in quick succession, and the trait only transfers the first application to the pet before going on a 60 sec cooldown. (Side-effect of changing Stability to stacks.)

There is a ranger trait which removes blindness, cripple, and poison on dodges. Probably the weakest conditions out there.

I believe sword 2 is also a immobilize break as well as greatsword 3

Nope. They don’t clear any immobilizes, control effects, or conditions. In fact GS 3 is bugged in that if you’re immobilized during the middle of its leap, all your skills are disabled until you die or logout. Actually I think this bug affects all leap skills, it’s just more apparent on ranger GS 3 because it’s the longest duration leap.

Thank you for clarifying this for InsidiousWaffle.7086.

Please post your math showing that condition builds can do more dps than a power build please. I always ask this but I never get an answer.

1.
Unlike power? Burst damage has gone through the roof, people drop dead in a single combo.
And why is it a problem when condition builds have plenty access to condition damage abilities, but no body bats an eye at powerbuilds spamming their power-scaling skills.

2.
It’s true that most professions have ways to apply conditions like vulnerability. But to say everyone easily stacks upto the 25 cap is a clear and blatant lie.

3.
You seem to believe number of conditions equals performance. It sounds more like you have an OCD for having your bar remain “clean”. Skills can remain perfectly balanced while applying every condition in the book, if given a long enough cd, cast time, counterplay, tuned duration and stacks.
Why don’t you also level the same complaint at boons? Several skills grant a wide array of boons. Or condition removal? AoE clears from several allies, or multiple conditions at once, or even both.

Surely if you have a problem with a single ability applying more than 1 conditions you should have a problem with skills applying more than 1 boon or clearing more than 1 condition.

4.
And other classes who don’t have a lot of dodge, armor and health feel the pain more from direct-damage. Professions are not build equal.
So what exactly is your complaint here? Some professions have to much (aoe) condition removal? I agree.

You also seem to stare yourself blind on just the removal of conditions. Some professions may clear conditions better, while others outright avoid the initial application better. Remember kids, dodge, block, invulnerability and blind also works against skills that apply conditions. You know, on top of removing conditions should you fail to avoid the attack.

5.
Why make distinctions between professions in conditions. I honestly don’t get what your grief here is. Thematically you feel certain conditions don’t fit? Besides being a subjective opinion, this argument could be made for several aspects.
I dont think its thematically fitting for a heavy armor, high hp, hard to stop warrior to also be incredibly quick.

Your final thoughts:
1) Your opinion and contradicts where you said “conditions should be powerful”. Okay, they should be powerful… but they shouldnt be applied a lot. Hmm…
2) Two words. Critical Strike. Direct-damage is constantly subject to arbitrary damage spikes.
3) Some of the highest direct-damage dps skills have low or no cooldown.
4) See 3.
5) This would really just mean buffing duration on Vulnerability, as Chill usually lasts a few seconds at most.
6) Your opinion, Multi-condition skills can be balanced just fine as i explained earlier.
7) Your opinion on thematics. Since when did we start balancing around the names of skills? Might as well argue for a name change.
8) You seem to be going for a double-negative here. You probably mean the opposite, either way it’s just your opinion on thematics again.
9) Balancing vulnerability around having enough people to stack it up seems like a good way to screw over pve. Besides you grossly overstate how easily people can stack vulnerability without using some cooldown (utility) skills that have the express purpose of applying vulnerability and little/nothing else.

Yes, i get the point. You just don’t like conditions. And you express your opinion to that end.
Personally i feel that balance should not happen based on the whims of a few people who have their own personal unreasonable hatred towards conditions

Like we need more precision and power based DPS? Lol get some condition removal skills or traits. I think you’re just bitter in PVP

UnitedChaos.8364:

No, I clearly stated that condition builds should be powerful, but the current game design that every skill should apply arbitrary conditions is out of control. You should have to intentionally apply conditions and not just them be a side effect of whatever skill your using. And no, if you get a high stack of any condition, including low-damage conditions, such as poison, it will do much more damage than any physical dps class.

Average ele direct damage build: 14-17k dps

Best case scenario maxed out condition build: 12k dps

They aren’t even close

Bro if u think conditions are overpowered then play with conditions.If u think other class is overpowered play with that class.I dont get it, does your acc have some restrictions?Why all the time ppl crying about nerfing something…I want warhorn to make more dmg then gs,nerf everything so i can play with just warhorn,because i dont want to change how i play,game will have to change to how i play…

I’ll say this:

When soloing content conditions can be a huge problem… Then again I have my support/tank guard on a shout cleanse build, cleaning 13-15+ conditions in seconds…
Or my shout heal warhorn warrior with 4 shouts and 2 condition removals on warhorn..
rangers have acces to shouts (RaO, Sic’m, ressing when traited…, Guard and so on) Tempest will have shouts… and so on

When playing in groups one or 2 of thse builds can compleely negate all condition dmg in a group of 5, even in WvW zerg combat… In fact it’s so effective people noticed and NOONE USES CONDITIONS IN ZERG vs ZERG

Havoc WvW 5-10 ppl parties se a huge increase in Condi builds, though a lot of escapes exits (PU mesmers being essential to the survivability of the 5 man squads) these are packed with condi dealers and cleansers.

Roaming however is condi vs condi-return vs condi clear. your build tries to spike, out dps or just clean the stuf before you die.

In PvE I sometimes take my WvW shout heal warrior, grab a zealot armor and clean and facetank to the boss… regen helps a lot. I do not even use healig signet… use adrenal health and regen banners and if needed a shout heal for myself. It is so powerfull you negate ALL condi dmg….. in an entire dungeon, or at least you keep everybody alive and well untill the final boss is staring at daisies…

Most people stare blind to cleansing but forget Light field combo’s… condi duration removal with food, runes and sigils…

You can get a whole lot more dps with just condition damage (as in the stat and without precision) than you can with just power (as in just power major without precision and ferocity). In other words, you need to sacrifice a whole lot less to have sustain stats too if you go condi. This shouldn’t come to anyone as news, but I don’t think it was mentioned in the thread, so take it as you will.

Most of these TRULY OP CONDI examples are like the 48 step engineer rotation (interupting it???) or the burning guard which can be cleansed INSTANT with 1 cleanse losing the whole spike and consequently being stuck at 4-9 burning… with no other sources of condition dmg…. Also it was very nice: I took my burning guard to the mega destroyer while it is affected, the pre’s are all hairy cause you run into all critters having imunity to burning ….leaving you with a knights build without the toughness… in a condition rich environment…

Tuomir.1830:

You can get a whole lot more dps with just condition damage (as in the stat and without precision) than you can with just power (as in just power major without precision and ferocity). In other words, you need to sacrifice a whole lot less to have sustain stats too if you go condi. This shouldn’t come to anyone as news, but I don’t think it was mentioned in the thread, so take it as you will.

your individual conditions may hit a little harder, but they will only last a few seconds and your total dps will be much lower. You need precision to maintain high stacks and you need condition duration to maintain the stacks over time.

IF Condi-builds weren’t an issue and weren’t a power-house build, they wouldn’t be the meta for things like sPvP and WvW Roaming/Havoc. Anytime, and I mean ANYtime something becomes “Strong” everyone plays it…

Step into sPvP or WvW and find me a Thief who isn’t using a Condi-trap build, or a Condi-PU Mesmer or a Burn-Guard, or any Condi-centric Build while roaming/havocing… It’s very very rare to see.

Even DnT a very well known Dungeon/Fractals guild that has many successful builds for those game types, has a Condi-Engi build that in fights lasting around 14 seconds, can out perform Any/Most Power builds, and if it couldn’t DnT wouldn’t use it, because DnT focuses purely on “The Best” builds and nothing more.

When SO many players are using a Condi-centric build, over anything else, it stops being a thing of personal taste and a case of “This is what is MOST powerful at this given time, so I am going to use it”.

ANet should have made them (Conditions.) a strong alternative to power builds, not stronger than.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Tuomir.1830:

You can get a whole lot more dps with just condition damage (as in the stat and without precision) than you can with just power (as in just power major without precision and ferocity). In other words, you need to sacrifice a whole lot less to have sustain stats too if you go condi. This shouldn’t come to anyone as news, but I don’t think it was mentioned in the thread, so take it as you will.

your individual conditions may hit a little harder, but they will only last a few seconds and your total dps will be much lower. You need precision to maintain high stacks and you need condition duration to maintain the stacks over time.

Pray tell me, which PvP amulet gives you condi duration?

Tuomir.1830:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Tuomir.1830:

You can get a whole lot more dps with just condition damage (as in the stat and without precision) than you can with just power (as in just power major without precision and ferocity). In other words, you need to sacrifice a whole lot less to have sustain stats too if you go condi. This shouldn’t come to anyone as news, but I don’t think it was mentioned in the thread, so take it as you will.

your individual conditions may hit a little harder, but they will only last a few seconds and your total dps will be much lower. You need precision to maintain high stacks and you need condition duration to maintain the stacks over time.

Pray tell me, which PvP amulet gives you condi duration?

Don’t care about PvP, that’s a dead game mode. Hasn’t gotten a new map in years, dwindling player base, almost no followers, terrible balance.

Raids are the only thing that really matter now. You can pick up giver’s weapons, various runes, sigils, food, and utilities. You can usually get one condition to the 100% cap, with the others around 60%.

As far as I know only the engineer hybrid sinister build can maintain high dps for a 30s boss fight. They drop off to below meta for fights that extend longer than 30s and are not pure condition, but a hybrid of both damage types. Raid fights will presumably be 3-5 minutes in length which will actually be better for condition specs since our long ramp up time is a big problem in sustained dps. Here you will see some builds fall off (power necros for instance need to blow their wells and lich to get to top tier dps but then they have 1-3 minute CD’s) but conditions really hit their stride after 20 seconds of build up. They still won’t compete with thieves or ele’s or guards or warriors for direct damage, but they can at least get in the same league.

I think you are still missing the point…. at last regarding the so called OP status of condi’s.

Power has been meta for 3 years , conditions were available in PvP and found in WvW
these conditions not yet stacks were the same IN MOST cases, only capped at 25… or 1 in case of burning or poison.

Due to the fact warriors,guardians,rangers and ele’s could outheal burning or poison with 2 bleeds with HS, regen traits or skillls or just plain regeneration, and nothing lived after the people stood there dps-ing a couple of seconds nobody had problems.

Now conditions show HOW OFTEN they were negated. burning no longer has a max stack of 1, but of 1500…. Same for poison…

Previously in pvp / wvw if 2 people shot you with 5 poisoned arrows you smiled and ignored it, now you get those 10 stacks stacked and not after each-other… and you notice how much damage was ignored while people actually tried to put it on you.

The “weak in groups non viable condi builds” now are something to consider, as is cleaning, reduction and ALL POSSIBLE ways of removing or lowering condi dmg, but the 3 years made people ignorant, or at least less informed on achieving ways to mitigate or remove… where people are fully adept or mastered at DPS denial.

Also the ways to do damage always seem to sprout first and the solutions to counter new developments are a bit slower… arms race in MMO’s…

The OP is right, conditions are ott at the moment rivalling direct damage, which I don’t think should be the case for something that is a passive application with a supposed attritional effect. This is the worse case of passive play in the game atm and encourages easy and lazy gameplay. Cover the entire ground in oversized aoes condition fields (wells, traps etc.) and just walk away. Anet have no clue how to balance this game at all. All the applications of multiple conditions with one skill, especially transfer conditions and convert boons to conditions need to be looked at. To me this a ridiculous situation which Anet just makes worse with each balance pass.

Conditions were too weak in PvE before June 23 update, now now the players say they are too powerful in PvP and WvW. Three environments totally different, one single set of skills and traits. Balance? Sisyphus work.

I really wonder where you people get lazy gameplay, you need to get conditions applied first. even when playing ranged well builds or other remote applied conditions you can easily disengage, melee conditions (S/S, soon also S/T, warrior and Chill reapers) are way different,

This shifting Meta will force people to think:

• close range?
• long range?
• how do I make a window of opportunity??
• artrition of cleansing?
• artrition of heals?
• stun/spike?
• Perma CC?
• 2 way attack?
• stealth hit?
• hit and run?
• 2 vs 1? or more?

Most conditions in PvP are only influenced by runes and sigils, so caps are at +75% duration (45% rune, 20% specific and 10% all conditions)…., if you do not care to bring stacking sigils (max 12% increase) or bursting (6% increase), negating can be more difficult., but I probably invest in other sigils to stay alive…

In WvW, the meta? Well:

Roaming Meta = PvP Meta only with food and Ascended quality gear and way more stat combo’s… as you can mix stats you can balance to near perfection….
Havoc Meta = WvW Meta ((cleansing) semi tough DPS builds)with PvP meta only with food and Ascended quality gear
Zerg Meta = WvW Meta ((cleansing) semi tough DPS builds)(with some Dungeon builds(Burst (Conditions)))
Guild Meta = Special…. (depends on visions of the guilds (ranged or PBAOE necro’s and similar things in relation to purpose and tactics.) and as such the builds are interlocked with certain purpose or communicated goals in others)

And PvE?

Dungeon Meta: (Burst (Conditions)) Just kill stuff and everybody is happy, faster kills: more happy faces.
PvE Meta (lol?): (Burst (Conditions)) Just kill stuff and everybody is happy, faster kills: more happy faces.

Odokuro.5049:

IF Condi-builds weren’t an issue and weren’t a power-house build, they wouldn’t be the meta for things like sPvP and WvW Roaming/Havoc. Anytime, and I mean ANYtime something becomes “Strong” everyone plays it…

Step into sPvP or WvW and find me a Thief who isn’t using a Condi-trap build, or a Condi-PU Mesmer or a Burn-Guard, or any Condi-centric Build while roaming/havocing… It’s very very rare to see.

Condition builds are NOT meta for pvp. Most meta builds use cele (= hybrid, not condition) or maraudeur(zerk) amulets, burn guard is basically the only condition build which probably can be considered “meta” and it is still less common than cele ele and power thief/mesmer. If you are talking about hotjoin – well, everything can be op there …

About wvw – i solo roam a lot (with power builds btw) and meet plenty of players with power builds. The only build which is clearly used more often than everything else is condi pu mesmer – mainly because of pu, not because it is condi. Power pu mesmer is common too, but hardly anyone plays condimesmer without pu.
Most thieves, guards, rangers and almost all warriors i encounter play power builds. For engi and necro it is about 50:50 i guess. Ele is usually cele. I haven’t found this ominous “condi (roaming) meta” yet.

I guess, i don’t have to write about meta for zerg fights …

Even DnT a very well known Dungeon/Fractals guild that has many successful builds for those game types, has a Condi-Engi build that in fights lasting around 14 seconds, can out perform Any/Most Power builds, and if it couldn’t DnT wouldn’t use it, because DnT focuses purely on “The Best” builds and nothing more.

Oh no, there is one! single condi (oh wait, it is actually hybrid, not even full condi) build, which can compete with the zerk meta. Must be op then …

Vague Memory.2817:

The OP is right, conditions are ott at the moment rivalling direct damage, which I don’t think should be the case for something that is a passive application with a supposed attritional effect. This is the worse case of passive play in the game atm and encourages easy and lazy gameplay. Cover the entire ground in oversized aoes condition fields (wells, traps etc.) and just walk away. Anet have no clue how to balance this game at all. All the applications of multiple conditions with one skill, especially transfer conditions and convert boons to conditions need to be looked at. To me this a ridiculous situation which Anet just makes worse with each balance pass.

Condition application is not more passive than application of direct dmg. When playing condi builds you have to press buttons and land skills just like with power builds. Btw fields can be avoided by walking out of them, and you mentioned wells, which are used mostly by power necros and not by condi ones. Sooo … power builds can do the same as condi builds, where is the problem?

Condi transfer is just a counter to conditions (basically a better form of condi cleanse) and can be used by power builds. Boon corruption is just a counter to this random, passive “boon-spam” meta and only aviable for one class.

Vague Memory.2817:

The OP is right, conditions are ott at the moment rivalling direct damage, which I don’t think should be the case for something that is a passive application with a supposed attritional effect. This is the worse case of passive play in the game atm and encourages easy and lazy gameplay. Cover the entire ground in oversized aoes condition fields (wells, traps etc.) and just walk away. Anet have no clue how to balance this game at all. All the applications of multiple conditions with one skill, especially transfer conditions and convert boons to conditions need to be looked at. To me this a ridiculous situation which Anet just makes worse with each balance pass.

Condi damage is not passive. It is every bit as active as direct damage. All damage is done by hitting the other guy with the damage being spread over time instead of immediate. You obviously have a bias against condi damage.