Guild Wars 2

Your right when you may say this post has little to no thought behind it, but the mindless applications of conditions needs to come to a end. Necros just spam #1 on a scepter and the same for almost all classes realy regardless of the weapon. Where skill fails conditions come in? seriously anet, enough is enough. stop nerfing every class and adress the real issue, conditions.

. . . what? I don’t . . . what? . . .

The problem with conditions is how someone not built for conditional damage, will still apply condition stacks and take off powerful stacks of conditions by another condition built player. Everyone does conditions, no matter how they’re built. That’s something that needs to be addressed, and it still doesn’t fix things when there’s a large number of players built for conditions. Physical attacks don’t have a cap on the number of sources, though they can be negated with dodges, evades and invulnerability of course, but so can technically conditions, or rather the application of them. Physical damage can be reduced with Toughness, damage reduction modifiers in Traits and from Boons like Protection, while conditions can’t, yet another problem. I think Toughness and other things that reduces damage should reduce condition damage personally, I always though they should (the armor is less penetrable, making it so that you get less gashes to bleed from, etc., if you need a reason for it). Conditions has a lot of problems, but I don’t think it’s what you’re basically saying, that they are easy mode and should simply be removed.

You do realize that every weapon does power damage?

If anything, condition damage is really underpowered in most parts of the game due to cap. But I guess this is just a very thinly veiled “I lose in pvp all the time, please make me win, anet, as I am unwilling to improve myself”-complaint.

We could remove conditions and make everything power-based. It wouldn’t bother me in the slightest. Conditions are pretty annoying overall due to caps, an unmodified damage dealer still stacks (and can overwrite) more powerful condition stacks. It’s sad that in most of PvE conditions are a joke.

Absconditus.6804:

I think Toughness and other things that reduces damage should reduce condition damage personally

Not even remotely. Conditions can be mitigated with more vitality – since their damage is meant to melt health, the more there is to melt the less likely it will be successful. They shouldn’t improve toughness to reduce condition damage as well, that would just beat down conditions to being even more useless, which is the last thing conditions actually need.

There have been suggestions for Conditions, but it seems there’s no plans or CDI going on about this right now.

Like said, in PvE problem is the cap and applying weak conditions that override stronger ones.
Perhaps if there were a minimum thresholds of Condition dmg and dur, that prevents weak conditions from overriding stronger ones, but I dunno…

But in PvP, conditions are quite powerful, as I’ve heard.

For PvE, it’s a different matter, 99% of mobs are designed to die in 1-3 seconds, if players use berserker DPS builds, which makes it worse for condition use, when mobs just melt before conditions even hit damage…
Only with 1% of mobs, which are mainly boss monsters with combat mechanics that prevent melting in 1-3 seconds are where conditions and some other game mechanics actually get a chance in equal terms against berserker DPS builds…

For the most part the OP is right, conditions are extremely strong in pvp and have been for more than a year.

If you don’t have a way to clear conditions fast then you’re gonna have a bad time.

It’s funny that how effective conditions are is night and day in pve vs pvp.

FrostSpectre.4198:

Only with 1% of mobs, which are mainly boss monsters with combat mechanics that prevent melting in 1-3 seconds are where conditions and some other game mechanics actually get a chance in equal terms against berserker DPS builds…

The absolute worst thing is on that 1%, even conditions can be easily negligible. PvE conditions are a disappointment.

Sages.3496:

Your right when you may say this post has little to no thought behind it, but the mindless applications of conditions needs to come to a end. Necros just spam #1 on a scepter and the same for almost all classes realy regardless of the weapon. Where skill fails conditions come in? seriously anet, enough is enough. stop nerfing every class and adress the real issue, conditions.

Just one thing.

Either you have posted in the wrong forum : this should belong to the pvp section

OR

You are a troll.

Which statement corresponds you the most ?

For now, it is universally accepted that conditions are sub-par in pve and only have their use for the wurm megaboss. Lesson for life : removing something that does not work well dos not solve any problem. It just hides it and generates an other problem instead.

Cuddy.6247:

We could remove conditions and make everything power-based. It wouldn’t bother me in the slightest. Conditions are pretty annoying overall due to caps, an unmodified damage dealer still stacks (and can overwrite) more powerful condition stacks. It’s sad that in most of PvE conditions are a joke.

Absconditus.6804:

I think Toughness and other things that reduces damage should reduce condition damage personally

Not even remotely. Conditions can be mitigated with more vitality – since their damage is meant to melt health, the more there is to melt the less likely it will be successful. They shouldn’t improve toughness to reduce condition damage as well, that would just beat down conditions to being even more useless, which is the last thing conditions actually need.

Good job quoting one thing, out of context. They need to look at conditions as a whole, how it caps, how players without focus on conditions overwrites stacks from players who do, and at the same time, for PvP, make it so that damage mitigation works against conditions as well. Honestly, I am a bit sick and tired of people saying Vitality is the answer to Conditions as if Toughness is the only solution to physical damage. Yeah, that Vitality sure didn’t help you survive longer against that physical damage, right? Two years, and people are still uttering that nonsense. Conditions has problems, removing them outright is not the solution, that’d be extremely boring.

Absconditus.6804:

Cuddy.6247:

We could remove conditions and make everything power-based. It wouldn’t bother me in the slightest. Conditions are pretty annoying overall due to caps, an unmodified damage dealer still stacks (and can overwrite) more powerful condition stacks. It’s sad that in most of PvE conditions are a joke.

Absconditus.6804:

I think Toughness and other things that reduces damage should reduce condition damage personally

Not even remotely. Conditions can be mitigated with more vitality – since their damage is meant to melt health, the more there is to melt the less likely it will be successful. They shouldn’t improve toughness to reduce condition damage as well, that would just beat down conditions to being even more useless, which is the last thing conditions actually need.

Good job quoting one thing, out of context. They need to look at conditions as a whole, how it caps, how players without focus on conditions overwrites stacks from players who do, and at the same time, for PvP, make it so that damage mitigation works against conditions as well. Honestly, I am a bit sick and tired of people saying Vitality is the answer to Conditions as if Toughness is the only solution to physical damage. Yeah, that Vitality sure didn’t help you survive longer against that physical damage, right? Two years, and people are still uttering that nonsense. Conditions has problems, removing them outright is not the solution, that’d be extremely boring.

Vitality’s really not going to help against direct damage, that’s going to be toughness all the way. It wouldn’t seem to be true, but it’s not true. The problem is direct damage can deal so much, regardless of one’s vitality, if they don’t have any toughness.

This again.. Vitality is of course going to help you against direct damage. It’s not Toughness all the way. It’s a bloody combination of it, and stating otherwise is plain stupid and borderline a display of poor intelligence. If you have boosted your health with 3-5k through Vitality, and are slipping out after a stomp with 1k health remaining, well you can bet your little behind that Vitality helped you. It helped you just as much against that physical damage as it did against conditional damage.

Condition damage could do with a bit of toning down as well, especially in WvW. Running around with 3k/s ticking conditions with no mitigation beyond cleansing is just rubbish game design, more so when they can be applied so quickly compared to how often they can be cleansed (beyond specific (really weak overall) counter-condition builds on specific professions). It’s as idiotic as it is that there’s a cap the way it’s implemented, and that players without focus on conditions, ruins it for those who do wish to focus on it. The whole system should get a revamp. The conditions was done so much better in Guild Wars, it’s strange they managed to make it so bad here. In PvP it’s too much, in PvE it’s pretty much terrible when we’re talking about more than one source of conditions.

Sages.3496:

Your right when you may say this post has little to no thought behind it, but the mindless applications of conditions needs to come to a end. Necros just spam #1 on a scepter and the same for almost all classes realy regardless of the weapon. Where skill fails conditions come in? seriously anet, enough is enough. stop nerfing every class and adress the real issue, conditions.

If a Necromancer is spamming just scepter 1 that is only 6 stacks of bleeding and constant poison after 6-7 hits. About 10 stacks of bleeds with critical chance. For even high condi damage builds that would only be 600-1000 damage, 250ish damage from Poison and 400ish damage from normal damage. That’s 1775 damage more or less a second after 5 second plus build up, that can easily be mitigated just by crowd controlling necro, removing condi and just plain pressuring a condi necro to death.

The only builds a Necromancer can afford to just spam scepter 1 against is bunkers that do very little damage where the poison helps kill their regen, or against non-skilled players where said Necro feels he/she can get away auto attacking, because you’re not skilled enough to kill him/her, period. Against skilled players and well thought out builds, just auto attacking with scepter 1 is never going to win you a fight solo.

Also what you may be witnessing is that scepter auto attack for condi Necro builds is how we wait for weapon swap to restart condi rotation and how many of us indirectly “pressure” low health enemies into down state. This usually comes after the usual Fears(terrormancer or not)/Dark Path usage. It’s definitely not easy to do so since condi necros, save for a terrormancer, lack any true spike damage. You may be only paying attention to the end of battle when a condi necro starts doing this, as you try to escape, and didn’t notice what the Necro was actually doing. If you end up getting out of 900 range or behind an obstacle and not enough bleed/poison was applied, then you should be able to escape and recover.

True condi play for necros consists of constantly weapon swapping and applying every single Staff/Scepter/Dagger Off-Hand skill in their kitten nal while saving deathly swarm and possibly putrid mark (if not used for weakness combo with chilblains), to transfer back conditions. This sort of play adds up to around14-17 stacks of area Bleeds, with lots of secondary condis in addition to transferring back enemy conditions. This is much more advantageous play to condi necro than just spamming auto attack on scepter. Terrormancers have the added mechanics of trying to set up perfect fear bombs that can require lots of pre planning, timing and execution.

My point is that your knowledge of condition application (especially from your necro example), may be limited as most condition application isn’t that flashy, especially on Necromancers and therefore you think all anyone is doing with condis is auto attacking. In many instances condi application can take a lot more juggling and timing than physical builds. Sometimes.

If you’re upset about the fire and forget nature of conditions in general than tough luck. The counter to conditions is not the same as counters to physical damage. You’re going to have to bring condi removal and learn how to counter certain condition builds, learn application tells, have better regen and/or higher health to sustain through degen.

The basic premise of conditions is apply and forget damage over time, that ignores armor, and possibly frees up 1-2 gear stats, but has less DPS than physical damage, has far less spike capability and can be manually removed with condition removal.

Edit: There is nothing truly wrong with the basic function of condition damage. Again learn or build to counter it. What’s wrong is that Anet has to cap it for server performance and hasn’t done away with said caps or at the very least hasn’t created a workaround for benefits above 25 stacks of condis. Also PvE encounters are designed in such a way that highest DPS is optimal (Zerker) and survivability is easy, therefore variant builds are counter productive instead of helpful like in PvP/WvW which is smarter play (Players instead of AI).

Absconditus.6804:

This again.. Vitality is of course going to help you against direct damage. It’s not Toughness all the way. It’s a bloody combination of it, and stating otherwise is plain stupid and borderline a display of poor intelligence. If you have boosted your health with 3-5k through Vitality, and are slipping out after a stomp with 1k health remaining, well you can bet your little behind that Vitality helped you. It helped you just as much against that physical damage as it did against conditional damage.

It doesn’t help as much. Direct damage deals much, much, much more damage – is toned down mostly by toughness (since vitality is really not going to help you retaliate to anyone or anything who is using direct damage well). Conditions become less effective the more vitality is added…it’s really not the same with direct damage, since the damage is going to cut through health regardless without any toughness. With more vitality they have to chip at, the easier it can be cleansed by anyone who takes the preemptive thought of possibly having condition cleansing on their bar.

Anecdotal evidence doesn’t exactly negate that vitality doesn’t help much against direct damage, but cuts the effectiveness of conditions considerably. It’s called balance, a cost and reward system of what helps and what doesn’t. Anyone who actually relies on vitality to manage incoming direct damage is bad at the game.

Cuddy.6247:

Anyone who actually relies on vitality or Toughness to manage incoming direct damage is bad at the game. They’re clearly not using their dodges, evades, control and/or invulnerability skills.

There, fixed it for you.

Welp… Conditions can be fixed and it’s not that hard.
1) Only the conditions of the strongest sources are ticking (aka Necro with 200 condi damage vs a group of power rangers → Necro bleed sticks, Rangers do not)
2) If your condition fails to be applied you get a little bonus damage on your hit to even it out
3) Revisit caps, duration and so on. Most importantly introduce a second damage stat for conditions. A power class usually wants power, precision and ferocity for well rounded damage. Condition classes just need condition damage which leaves too much space for defensive stats (condi damage/toughness/vitality andyone?!)
4) Revisit Toughness and Vitality as defense against Power/Conditions. Currently Toughness reduces Power damage by % and Vitality is basically just “You have x ticks of condition damage more to live” – Needs more refining to make them equally useful against those damage sources!

Bam, simple basics how to fix conditions. Refine the system and you get clear strengths and weaknesses when building power or condition versus someone with toughness or vitality. And you’d finally fix PvP basically being condition only or PvP being Zerker only.

Akuni.8604:

Welp… Conditions can be fixed and it’s not that hard.
1) Only the conditions of the strongest sources are ticking (aka Necro with 200 condi damage vs a group of power rangers -> Necro bleed sticks, Rangers do not)
2) If your condition fails to be applied you get a little bonus damage on your hit to even it out

Might throws a wrench in that plan.

3) Revisit caps, duration and so on. Most importantly introduce a second damage stat for conditions. A power class usually wants power, precision and ferocity for well rounded damage. Condition classes just need condition damage which leaves too much space for defensive stats (condi damage/toughness/vitality andyone?!)

We already have 3 stats tied to conditions nl. condition damage, condition duration and precision.

4) Revisit Toughness and Vitality as defense against Power/Conditions. Currently Toughness reduces Power damage by % and Vitality is basically just “You have x ticks of condition damage more to live” – Needs more refining to make them equally useful against those damage sources!

Vitality works against both stats in terms of burst but offers little to no sustain, Toughnes reduces burst and offers sustain against power but not condition damage, healing power offers sustain against both power and conditions but does nothing against burst. As you can see every stat has its advantages and disadvantages which is fine.

Ironically, the title of this thread is also the solution to the problem.

Tim.6450:

Might throws a wrench in that plan.

We already have 3 stats tied to conditions nl. condition damage, condition duration and precision.

Vitality works against both stats in terms of burst but offers little to no sustain, Toughnes reduces burst and offers sustain against power but not condition damage, healing power offers sustain against both power and conditions but does nothing against burst. As you can see every stat has its advantages and disadvantages which is fine.

Might doesn’t throw a wrench in there – The stacks always tick from the person with the highest condition damage so if Might wears off it’ll just switch to the next highest. In the end you always have the highest DoT possible on the target.

Precision doesn’t add to condition damage it just proccs certain effects. You can do fine without “Crit has x% Chance to inflict Y”.
I was referring to the damage itself which is modified by condi damage. Duration doesn’t change much if you cap your stacks anyway through rapid stacking. Condition duration should change the DoT Intervall imo. That’d be awsome and fix conditions being too strong without speccing into them as you’d have big intervalls without the stat.

While your definition of vit/tough is correct you should know how little they help against conditions. Just try fighting someone with conditions while wearing full sentinels, you’ll get eaten alive. They only thing which helps is truly healing but you need to be able to use it effectively. If you can heal once every 25secs nothings going to stop the condi-paintrain.

So yeah, obviously my solution might not be super awsome/solves everything – I’m not a designer and I didn’t spend hours thinking on how to fix it (It’s not my job) but it’s a simple but elegant method where you could start thinking. That said you only gave “doesn’t work like that” answers but you never mentioned a solution yourself – Get thinking! ;p

Vitality is a poor counter to conditions when talking about power vs condition. It’s not as if power damage is % based on target’s hp. Vitality is an equal defense against both power and condition alike.

Conditions have limits. Limited stacks, time limits, can be removed in various ways, can have their durations reduced in various ways and most conditions have a boon counter.

Physical damage doesn’t really have such limits or counters. While some of the boons that are counters to conditions will also counter physical damage, physical damage needs a hard stat like toughness. Without toughness, physical damage would be OP and if toughness reduced condition damage then conditions whose purpose of doing damage (bleed, burn, etc.) wouldn’t be worth spec’ing into. Doing so would be gimping your character.

I do agree that a character spec’ed condition should not have their applied conditions replaced by weaker sources.

You can have 25 stacks of bleed? So let’s say there are two characters. One is spec’ed into conditions but can only apply 12 stacks of bleed. The other character is spec’ed into power/precision but can stack 20 bleeds.

Now let’s say that the stack of 20 will do more dps than the stack of 12 once at full stack.

Who should get their stacks applied?

Answer is, the character who can only stack 12. While the character who can put 20 will do more dps for all 20, the character who can only apply 12 stacks does more dps per application. So the game would compare the dps per application. The result on target would be 12 stacks from the first character and 13 from the second. This would result in maximizing dps from conditions as well. If it was the other way around with the second character’s 20 applied first and the first character only applying 5, this would result in less over all dps on target. It would also severely off balance the applied damage from each character with the power/precision build doing all the damage and the condition spec build doing little.

So with regards to the two characters above, the first invested into a trait line that increase condition damage while the other invested into a trait line that increases condition duration. Which explains the difference between dps per stack and difference in max stats.

This means that someone who invests in condition duration will have their conditions overridden by someone who invests in condition damage. As it should be since this would maximize dps on target and increases the likelihood that more players will get their fair shot at contributing.

For example, let’s introduce another condition spec’ed character. If based on dps per application, then both characters would apply their 12 each for a total of 24 and the power/precision build will apply 1 stack. All the characters contribute fairly evenly and over all dps on target is maximized.

If the power/precision build applied it’s 20, then the remaining 5 would go to one of the other two which means one character would be doing little to nothing and the contribution of each character would be out of balance. Over all dps to target is not optimal either.

So clearly restricting it so only the highest dps per application is applied is the best solution. This also works well with the nature of skills where higher dps per application and duration tend to be trade offs.

The only hole is with the nature of skills. Even if a character is spec’ed power/precision, they may have a skill that applies a burn for lots of dps but for a short duration. Meanwhile the condition build has a burn that does medium damage for a longer duration. If the condition build applies the burn, and then the power/precision build applies their burn, it will override the one on there. Increasing dps for the duration that it is applied but lower the duration over all. Potentially lowering the over all damage applied. Leaving the condition build SoL if that skill is still on CD.

Two possible solutions for this.

1. The higher damage skill applies it’s higher dps but it’s duration stacks onto the existing time remaining rather than overriding it. Then, when the condition build applies it’s burn, the damage doesn’t get overridden (so the higher dps remains) but the time gets stacked on more. This is a kind of synergy between characters applying the same damage where duration is increased as opposed to increasing stacks (since burn doesn’t increase in stacks). The problem with this is that, while the condition build is adding to the duration, the power/precision build is getting the credit for damage.

2. The alternative (and better solution) is for the condition build’s application of burn dps to be overridden by the power/precision build’s application and for the time to be added on. Damage is increased, time is extended, but if the condition build’s application is 3 seconds, and the power/precision build’s application is 1 second, after 1 second passes the dps of the condition drops down from the dps of the power/precision build’s skill to the condition build’s skill for the remainder of the duration. So a skill like burn will apply it’s damage for it’s duration for each character with a burn skill. Each character get’s a fair contribution. While solution 1 maximizes over all dps on target, only the character on the field who can achieve the highest dps of burn will get all the credit. I think, in this case, fair contribution is better than over all maximizing dps on target.

And none of this resolves the issue with conditions in larger scale encounters. E.g., Tequatl, Jormag, Shatterer and so on forth. In such encounters you may be looking at a hundred players participating, where as 30 of these may be built for conditions. Very few of these players gets to contribute effectively, compared to the 70 other players that are dealing physical damage, focusing their builds on this. It’s a terrible system. It needs a complete revamp, to be reworked. It should be the focus of a Feature Patch in the future, since it is a big undertaking to resolve this.

One thing’s for certain, if everyone is able to contribute more efficiently with conditions as their focus, we need stats such as Toughness to affect them. In the current system, of course it’s not as needed, in a better system with more damage sources, obviously we do.

PS: There is such a thing as a condition burst as well, applied in the same way you would apply a physical burst, after you exhaust your targets defenses (dodges, cleanses). If you don’t know how to play with conditions, fine, it shouldn’t be held against you, but you can spike people very fast in certain builds (on certain professions). More so in WvW.

1. Remove condition pressure from auto attacks. (perfect condi application is crossfire requiring flanking hits to apply a condition, vs some attacks naturally applying long durations regardless of paramaters).
2. Re-evalutate all the profession’s condition removal options so builds aren’t pigeonheld into a select few builds (either you have condition removal or you melt quickly)
3. Remove or lessen passive condition application (bleed on crit/swap/poison/burn/etc. Things that you can’t by any means be countered.)
4. Adjust condition stacking both duration and intensity so multiple condi builds don’t overlap and lose dps.
5. Adjust condition removal to better reward timed use in respect to how frequent they can remove x conditions. (for example, if you used a skill such as contemplation of purity you shouldn’t just be easily reapplied with every condition given its long cooldown. What is the point in using it then?)

NinjaEd.3946:

1. Remove condition pressure from auto attacks. (perfect condi application is crossfire requiring flanking hits to apply a condition, vs some attacks naturally applying long durations regardless of paramaters).
2. Re-evalutate all the profession’s condition removal options so builds aren’t pigeonheld into a select few builds (either you have condition removal or you melt quickly)

5. Adjust condition removal to better reward timed use in respect to how frequent they can remove x conditions. (for example, if you used a skill such as contemplation of purity you shouldn’t just be easily reapplied with every condition given its long cooldown. What is the point in using it then?)

1. Yes please. All basic attacks (number 1) should just be that, basic attacks with no conditions. That would lessen a lot of no use conditions put on enemies.
2. More different types of condition removals and especially more removals that affect friendlies surrounding you.
5. After condition removal you should be immune to the types of conditions your removal takes away (not all of them remove all condition types). A simple two second immunity would be very effective in keeping your condition removal useful.

Akuni.8604:

Might doesn’t throw a wrench in there – The stacks always tick from the person with the highest condition damage so if Might wears off it’ll just switch to the next highest. In the end you always have the highest DoT possible on the target.

So wait, you keep all stacks applied. You do realize that the condition cap is not a limit based on balance but on technical problems with conditions?

Akuni.8604:

Precision doesn’t add to condition damage it just proccs certain effects. You can do fine without “Crit has x% Chance to inflict Y”.

You can do fine without ferocity I don’t see the point.

Akuni.8604:

I was referring to the damage itself which is modified by condi damage. Duration doesn’t change much if you cap your stacks anyway through rapid stacking.

But you can only reach that cap with condition duration.

Akuni.8604:

Condition duration should change the DoT Intervall imo. That’d be awsome and fix conditions being too strong without speccing into them as you’d have big intervalls without the stat.

Excellent idea, let’s make conditions even more taxing on the server. /sarcasm

Akuni.8604:

Just try fighting someone with conditions while wearing full sentinels, you’ll get eaten alive.

Do you mind if I take my ele? Also sentinels contains toughness so you’re working at lower efficiency.

Akuni.8604:

They only thing which helps is truly healing but you need to be able to use it effectively. If you can heal once every 25secs nothings going to stop the condi-paintrain.

The same apllies to power damage. You use defenses in combination with healing to stop the paintrain both power and conditions.

Akuni.8604:

So yeah, obviously my solution might not be super awsome/solves everything – I’m not a designer and I didn’t spend hours thinking on how to fix it (It’s not my job) but it’s a simple but elegant method where you could start thinking. That said you only gave “doesn’t work like that” answers but you never mentioned a solution yourself – Get thinking! ;p

I’ve thought about it and your solution is not that great.

NinjaEd.3946:

1. Remove condition pressure from auto attacks. (perfect condi application is crossfire requiring flanking hits to apply a condition, vs some attacks naturally applying long durations regardless of paramaters).

Let’s do the same with power weapons, power weapons auto attacks do not do any damage.

NinjaEd.3946:

2. Re-evalutate all the profession’s condition removal options so builds aren’t pigeonheld into a select few builds (either you have condition removal or you melt quickly)

Always a good idea. Don’t forget that some classes are supposed to be condition weak and that by giving more options you can can create classes which are strong against conditions.

NinjaEd.3946:

3. Remove or lessen passive condition application (bleed on crit/swap/poison/burn/etc. Things that you can’t by any means be countered.)

Let’s follow this up with removal of passive condition removal(remove condition on hit, pets attracts conditions, stealth removes conditions,…)/power damage(sigil of air, sigil of fire, …)/boon application/…. . All that would be left is a very boring game.

NinjaEd.3946:

4. Adjust condition stacking both duration and intensity so multiple condi builds don’t overlap and lose dps.

The danger is that you remove the damage over time aspect.

NinjaEd.3946:

5. Adjust condition removal to better reward timed use in respect to how frequent they can remove x conditions. (for example, if you used a skill such as contemplation of purity you shouldn’t just be easily reapplied with every condition given its long cooldown. What is the point in using it then?)

The fact that you cleanse more conditions is an advantage in itself since you negate cover conditions. Also contemplation of purity gives boons and is a stun breakers, which is common for several condition removal skills.

Algreg.3629:

If anything, condition damage is really underpowered in most parts of the game due to cap. But I guess this is just a very thinly veiled “I lose in pvp all the time, please make me win, anet, as I am unwilling to improve myself”-complaint.

No….it’s only under-powered when large numbers of players attack the same target. This is a VERY narrow slice of the ACTUAL game….(zerg vs Champ / World Boss).

Tim.6450:

NinjaEd.3946:

1. Remove condition pressure from auto attacks. (perfect condi application is crossfire requiring flanking hits to apply a condition, vs some attacks naturally applying long durations regardless of paramaters).

Let’s do the same with power weapons, power weapons auto attacks do not do any damage.

NinjaEd.3946:

2. Re-evalutate all the profession’s condition removal options so builds aren’t pigeonheld into a select few builds (either you have condition removal or you melt quickly)

Always a good idea. Don’t forget that some classes are supposed to be condition weak and that by giving more options you can can create classes which are strong against conditions.

NinjaEd.3946:

3. Remove or lessen passive condition application (bleed on crit/swap/poison/burn/etc. Things that you can’t by any means be countered.)

Let’s follow this up with removal of passive condition removal(remove condition on hit, pets attracts conditions, stealth removes conditions,…)/power damage(sigil of air, sigil of fire, …)/boon application/…. . All that would be left is a very boring game.

NinjaEd.3946:

4. Adjust condition stacking both duration and intensity so multiple condi builds don’t overlap and lose dps.

The danger is that you remove the damage over time aspect.

NinjaEd.3946:

5. Adjust condition removal to better reward timed use in respect to how frequent they can remove x conditions. (for example, if you used a skill such as contemplation of purity you shouldn’t just be easily reapplied with every condition given its long cooldown. What is the point in using it then?)

The fact that you cleanse more conditions is an advantage in itself since you negate cover conditions. Also contemplation of purity gives boons and is a stun breakers, which is common for several condition removal skills.

1. Not sure what your argument is supposed to do. There are multiple things to take into consideration but look at some of the commonly claimed “op” condi builds who have a auto attack applying lasting conditions. Maybe I overstepped saying remove, I meant adjust so that the auto attack isn’t so mindlessly strong. If you know a thing or 2 about condition removal, it prioritizes damaging conditions which is pointless when your auto attack can cover it all up.

2. Strong or weak is fine, but the range is wide and obvious. Also they can make condition removal traits not stack with others, its not exactly a unheard of game design. The point is give people options, not a care package worth of condi removal so they can ignore 50% of offense builds.

3. I’d be in favor of less passive everything actually, including the condi removal aspect such as empathic bond and purity. Passive play is more boring than giving 2 people a stick and saying “go at it”.

4. Again not sure what the concern is. Multiple professions running a similar damage source should not be punished because of a stack limit. The stack limit can’t exactly be raised given a dev responded saying they take up bandwidth (you want more lag?) and many people have posted suggestions to better the stacking system. It’s punishing to team comps especially with misc conditions getting in the way which is bad.

5. The point here is some builds can quite literally just dump conditions on you over and over. Have someone use up a 50 second cooldown only to get reloaded just defeats the purpose. Im not suggesting grant them immunity but maybe something like -20% condition duration for x seconds when you remove that condition (non-stacking by any means) so for those less fortunate can attempt to skillfully remove condition overloads. It falls back into condition application but just in general, condition removal doesn’t seem that thoughtful aside from pressing it as an “oh kitten” moment.

NinjaEd.3946:

1. Not sure what your argument is supposed to do. There are multiple things to take into consideration but look at some of the commonly claimed “op” condi builds who have a auto attack applying lasting conditions. Maybe I overstepped saying remove, I meant adjust so that the auto attack isn’t so mindlessly strong. If you know a thing or 2 about condition removal, it prioritizes damaging conditions which is pointless when your auto attack can cover it all up.

Most “op” condition builds are not “op” for their auto attack. Terrormancer for their fear combined with terror, p/d sthiefs for the stealth, PU mesmer for PU,… . Their auto attacks are most of the time not that impressive. Take the auto attack of the typical terrormancer build, it is 652 on bleed application.
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fRAQJArYjc00YbtNm3wfbighSyW4DiuBCgzlykIKA-TJxCABAcCAO+BAQ1+DaVGAA

NinjaEd.3946:

4. Again not sure what the concern is. Multiple professions running a similar damage source should not be punished because of a stack limit. The stack limit can’t exactly be raised given a dev responded saying they take up bandwidth (you want more lag?) and many people have posted suggestions to better the stacking system. It’s punishing to team comps especially with misc conditions getting in the way which is bad.

Considering a condition build can stack up 25 bleed on its own. This means that all application needs to be reduced by a factor 5 and it’s damage increased by the same amount. A scepter auto attack from a necromancer becomes a 1 second bleed. So you made condition builds practically delayed physical damage. let’s not forget the problems with cleanses and condition duration.

NinjaEd.3946:

5. The point here is some builds can quite literally just dump conditions on you over and over. Have someone use up a 50 second cooldown only to get reloaded just defeats the purpose. Im not suggesting grant them immunity but maybe something like -20% condition duration for x seconds when you remove that condition (non-stacking by any means) so for those less fortunate can attempt to skillfully remove condition overloads. It falls back into condition application but just in general, condition removal doesn’t seem that thoughtful aside from pressing it as an “oh kitten” moment.

So, the cleanse did it’s job perfectly, it removed all the condition that you had on you and depending on the situation you can have migitated tons of damage, plus the extra effects of the debilitating condition effects. Getting reloaded means either the opponent outplayed you or you used your cleanse wrong.

Personally, the thing that concerns me is that they put all these weapons and condition gear in the game, so they clearly wanted condition builds to be a thing in PvE.

But they knew they had a condition cap and also pushed for an open world experience with a lot of players playing at the same time.

It just seems rather contradictory to me.

Tim, your posts are all pessimistic nay-saying. If you have nothing to add to the discussion except “I say that’s not going to work” without even diving into the matter and playing with ideas you should just leave the discussion.
I wonder how you can advance in life if your whole life motto seems to be “That doesn’t work. I know it for sure even though I didn’t test it. Thinking about something new? Nah don’t wanna.”

Back on the topic, I agree condition cleansing could need to be looked at aswell. They introduced a reduced condition duration with “Purging Flames” after the purge while staying in the area. I think that’s a solid foundation to start from.
Imagine skills that create zones which prevent conditions while standing in them – They have a srength in that they null a condition class but if you keep the radius small the downside would be being “pinned down” in your safe zone. I think something like that could work.

Oh and on autoattacks – I agree that a constant stream of conditions is not fun to play against but condition classes need them to keep their pressure on the enemy atm. If they’d include condition-conditions (lolz) like with crossfire that’d be a way to fix it. That or giving other means by traits and so on. But removing the conditions on autoattacks seems to be a rather hard slap on the wrist for condition classes.

So, wait, are we now arguing that conditions need to be removed or arguing they need to be improved in how they function, or are we arguing conditions are useless . . . ?