Conditions in the PvE Meta

Conditions in the PvE Meta

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Posted by: Sube Dai.8496

Sube Dai.8496

I’m amazed there is no mega thread going yet…

Anyway, big changes to conditions announced:

http://dulfy.net/2015/06/10/gw2-combat-changes-dots-and-dashes/

Fire and Poison will now stack, stacks increased greatly (unknown how high), and confusion does DoT as well as on attacks.

Do people see a new DPS meta incoming?

I can see this changing things for large HP targets like world bosses. Trash mobs I imagine Zerk will still be the meta.

But for high HP bosses the new optimal set could very well be sinister.

Maybe its time to start hanging on to those recipe drops from SW

John Snowman [GLTY]
Space Marine Z [GLTY]

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Posted by: Sube Dai.8496

Sube Dai.8496

Or maybe the new 5-man meta will be 4 zerk and one dedicated condi spammer with sinister.

John Snowman [GLTY]
Space Marine Z [GLTY]

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Posted by: ZudetGambeous.9573

ZudetGambeous.9573

It will all depend on how much they buff conditions.

Currently with 25 stacks of might and full sinister gear:

25 stacks of bleed =4k dps
Burning = 1k dps
Poison = 300 dps

total dps = 5.3k dps (single target)

Meta ele build with 25 stacks of might (stacks it themselves) = 12k dps (AOE)
Meta thief build with 25 stacks of might = 11-13k (Single target)

To bring conditions up to meta status this change would have to more than double the damage from conditions, and even then that doesn’t count build up time.

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Posted by: emikochan.8504

emikochan.8504

Do those numbers include vulnerability?

Welcome to my world – http://emikochan13.wordpress.com

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Posted by: Sorin.4310

Sorin.4310

Do those numbers include vulnerability?

I’m pretty sure they do. They also don’t consider damage that comes from attacking. Warrior solo DPS is very comparable whether full conditions or full direct when it comes to solo. But with critical hit boost in group play I imagine condition damage will still be subpar. Definitely not 50% less though.

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Posted by: Jerus.4350

Jerus.4350

The big hitch in Condi DPS becoming Meta is the speed in which you can burst things down with Power damage. When you have the ramp up time condi’s have how can they compete when a boss dies in seconds? Even if condi damage becomes comparable or even better once things are set up if the boss is half dead by the time you hit that point… well… that’s a pretty big issue.

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Posted by: Orpheal.8263

Orpheal.8263

I find all of the condition changes good, except of 1 – confusion.

This change is stupid as like ridiculous and adds nothing good to the game, rather than dumbing the condition system only more down to a complete reta peep fire and forget-system, where you don’t need player skills, because some silly automatic damage over time conditions in a mass do the job for you and all what you as a player need to do is just to ensure, that your enemies get spammed faster full of these conditions, than they ever will be able to cure them away, so that you will see your enemy dead after a few seconds, without that you actually had to do much, because the foe killed basicalyl his self, or if not, got totally shut town by not attacking anymore, not moving anymore and still suffering on tons of damage over time, thats good enough to kill anyone in a matter of seconds, if you don’t get that crapload of consitions instantly away from you, before the stacks get too high, that you could anyhow outheal that DoT and there aren’t much classes, which can outheal DoT, except 1, the Thief, but also not forever naturally, especially not when under poison.

Why I find crazy about these massive changes to the condition system is, why they make not also too at the same time appropiate changes to the complete BOON SYSTEM too to make it fit to the new condition system.
With the changes they plan, the game screams for a new Boon like “Sturdiness” to have a counter agaisnt Vulnerability…

Seriously.., as if 25% more damage isn#t enough and we clearly have seen already more than enough builds, new oners as like known old ones, that are easily able to burst 25 stacks of vulnarability, which would be with the change instantly 50% more direct damage. THATS FREAKING INSANE without appropiate changeds to the existign boons and addings of new good fitting boons for the game balance, like Studiness, which should work like a direct opposite of Might, just for Defense, that it increases toughness and vitality per stack.

Then protection needs to get increased from its 33% to 66%, so that this boon will become alot more impactful in combat as a counter to that significant boost to vulnerability.
—-

To come back quickly to confusion, the dot should get removed again, thats no solution to balance a game universal condition, because its in PvE useless and in PvP too strong due to the combat system beign too fast paced for it and its current damage calculation with being an intensity type.

Cofusion shouldnt have been an intensity type at all. it should be a duration type, that deals addiotionally more damage whenever the target attacks, so more conditions you suffer, on so that Confusion reards the player with more increasign damage over time, so more other conditions you cover up confusion. With makign Confusion a duration condition, that becomes more powerful, so more conditions you have on a fow, then it makes also no difference anymore, if your foe attacks slowly, or fast.

If it attacks slowly, like a world boss for example, they will be anyways permanently full of all condition,s so if they attack with confusion on, then it will hurt them pretty hard at least therefore and with tons of players spamming enough confusion, it will be guaranteed, that it will always be there together with all other conditions to deal serious damage whenever the slow boss tryes to do something.

On a quick attacking player, it will deal serious damage only then, if the attacking player is reckless and has no condition clean , so it will be automatically for pvp weaker, because

A: you won’t have alway all conditions on you at the same time in pvp, so Confusion won’t deal its maximum potential damage in pvp
B: intelligent players have always some kind of condi clean with them in pvp so that they can get rid of confusion or at least some other conditions to reduce the damage potential of confusion to make it lesser of a shut down hard counter to quick attacking classes

Personally I like the idea behind sub classes ~ quoted from Chris Whiteside

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Posted by: GreyWraith.8394

GreyWraith.8394

Taking a wait-and-see attitude here. They are changing the base damage and scaling with the condition damage stat; the numbers aren’t even finalized yet.

Personally I suspect condis will become very good for PuG dungeons but coordinated guild speed-runners will still use zerk. Condis take time to stack and I’m guessing zerk will be faster.

End of the Dream by Evanescence
unofficial theme song of the Nightmare Court

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Posted by: Sube Dai.8496

Sube Dai.8496

It will all depend on how much they buff conditions.

Currently with 25 stacks of might and full sinister gear:

25 stacks of bleed =4k dps
Burning = 1k dps
Poison = 300 dps

total dps = 5.3k dps (single target)

Meta ele build with 25 stacks of might (stacks it themselves) = 12k dps (AOE)
Meta thief build with 25 stacks of might = 11-13k (Single target)

To bring conditions up to meta status this change would have to more than double the damage from conditions, and even then that doesn’t count build up time.

THe number they have thrown out there is 400 stacks of bleed, which would be 64k dps based on your calculations.

As others have pointed out that would take time to build up to though.

It is going to be interesting.

John Snowman [GLTY]
Space Marine Z [GLTY]

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Posted by: Rakshasa.5493

Rakshasa.5493

It will all depend on how much they buff conditions.

Currently with 25 stacks of might and full sinister gear:

25 stacks of bleed =4k dps
Burning = 1k dps
Poison = 300 dps

total dps = 5.3k dps (single target)

Meta ele build with 25 stacks of might (stacks it themselves) = 12k dps (AOE)
Meta thief build with 25 stacks of might = 11-13k (Single target)

To bring conditions up to meta status this change would have to more than double the damage from conditions, and even then that doesn’t count build up time.

How do you work that out, because a stack (the little number) is the intensity, NOT the value of each unit, you can have 20 stacks, with a small unit value and it does less damage then 15 stacks with a higher unit value,

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Posted by: Neox.3497

Neox.3497

Or maybe the new 5-man meta will be 4 zerk and one dedicated condi spammer with sinister.

That would be great but the recent changes counter that completly.

By making conditions stronger they sure help condition players however it will simply depen on what does more damage. Zerk or condi? Since both stack now.

If they would ONLY buff conditions WITHOUT removing the cap you would end up with something like 4 zerk 1 condi but since the cap is gone it will either be 5 zerk or 5 condi.
Unless both are idendical in terms of damage.

(edited by Neox.3497)

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Posted by: Rakshasa.5493

Rakshasa.5493

I’m pretty sure we have been told that some of the monsters in HoT have high toughness, so pure zerk wont be the best set up any way :p

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Posted by: Vargamonth.2047

Vargamonth.2047

It’s going to depend on A LOT of things, including the content itself.
The only thing I’m quite sure of is that tanky power gear, like Soldier, will be more useless than ever :P

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Posted by: Sube Dai.8496

Sube Dai.8496

Well soldier will still be the staple of WvW. And WvW will continue to be the only home for all those other sets as well.

Its really all about Sinister. Does it become the PvE meta, a viable alternative, or slightly less annoying that it is now.

John Snowman [GLTY]
Space Marine Z [GLTY]

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Posted by: nearlight.3064

nearlight.3064

It will all depend on how much they buff conditions.

Currently with 25 stacks of might and full sinister gear:

25 stacks of bleed =4k dps
Burning = 1k dps
Poison = 300 dps

total dps = 5.3k dps (single target)

Meta ele build with 25 stacks of might (stacks it themselves) = 12k dps (AOE)
Meta thief build with 25 stacks of might = 11-13k (Single target)

To bring conditions up to meta status this change would have to more than double the damage from conditions, and even then that doesn’t count build up time.

since they are changing the way condition damage per tick scales with the condition damage stat, those numbers for that amount of stacks could very well be much higher, in addition to the cap removal.

I can see ranger, necromancer, and mesmer benefitting the most from this change. Mesmer will be able to stack 50% damage boosted torment (from new illusions trait), confusion, burning, bleeding, and vuln all at once with the right setup, along with providing reflects for the party.

Necromancer Main
Taking a break from GW2 to play various
Nintendo games..

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Posted by: zengara.8301

zengara.8301

Well if zerker=sinister it means 2 builds viable in pug groups and solo dungeons.

If Cond>Power then more builds will work but it would be more cond/toughness and probably would have just as bad as an effect……And would remind me of other game companies that is living around this hate/love thing about single things that is essential in the game, not going to name companies….but we all probably have a somewhat idea what it could be…….

All I am saying…….This is HUGE A-Net, please don’t break it and let it be broken for like 2 years.

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Posted by: TheBlackLeech.9360

TheBlackLeech.9360

I’ve already had all my revenant’s gear ready and it is going to be a full sinister torment stacking setup.

Runes of Tormenting + Legendary Demon Stance

I’ve played the beta and lets just say…..
Have fun trying to kill the enemies in HoT with PPF gear.

The only thing that is undecided is the sigil of torment for the mainhand weapon might get replaced with a sigil of generosity, but it is too early to tell if it will be worth the high sigil price. (The revenant applies torment to itself also, so it might be a good way to stack extra torment…. but the sigil costs 100g…. so i don’t know if its worth it)

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Posted by: Kury.8210

Kury.8210

What’s interesting to me is that along with the condition buffs they’re bringing in some new counters as well. Thread seems mostly pve, but pvp will have at least one class capable of throwing back conditions regularly and the new resistance buff. There’s also at least one option I was looking into that offers a lot but would remove a main source of condi removal. Will be interesting to see how it turns out.

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Posted by: alvinjason.3109

alvinjason.3109

It’s all good for PVE but how about WvW and PvP. Does anet plan to change the power and ferocity stat too? Normally with burst power builds it’s not just power we use, it’s power and ferocity. Power build equipment will take up 2 stats: power and ferocity. If they’re buffing conditions, the condis will have more dps likely as much output as burst specs plus alot of tankiness if you have Dire/apothecary, condis get the best of both worlds, high total damage output, high survivability while outlasting burst damage specs.

Devona’s Rest → NSP [SA] [TeaP]

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Posted by: Belenwyn.8674

Belenwyn.8674

In my opinion it heavily depends on the monsters whether the meta will be influenced or not. If players fight a husk boss or husk-like monsters in general condition builds will clearly rule. Dungeons with traditional mobs will maybe see a slight shift towards condition damage at the bosses if they live long enough.

For future group content I can see a healthy mix of husk-like monsters and traditional ones. Therefore pure zerker groups would be way less effective.

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Posted by: ZudetGambeous.9573

ZudetGambeous.9573

It will all depend on how much they buff conditions.

Currently with 25 stacks of might and full sinister gear:

25 stacks of bleed =4k dps
Burning = 1k dps
Poison = 300 dps

total dps = 5.3k dps (single target)

Meta ele build with 25 stacks of might (stacks it themselves) = 12k dps (AOE)
Meta thief build with 25 stacks of might = 11-13k (Single target)

To bring conditions up to meta status this change would have to more than double the damage from conditions, and even then that doesn’t count build up time.

How do you work that out, because a stack (the little number) is the intensity, NOT the value of each unit, you can have 20 stacks, with a small unit value and it does less damage then 15 stacks with a higher unit value,

This was assuming full ascended condition gear (i.e. ~2100 condition damage).

It’s highly unlikely to ever actually happen, these are theoretical numbers, with max might stacks and somehow maintaining full 25 stacks with 100% uptime. Real numbers are much lower for both power specs and condition specs.

since they are changing the way condition damage per tick scales with the condition damage stat, those numbers for that amount of stacks could very well be much higher, in addition to the cap removal.

Yeah that is why i’m saying we’ll have to see what the new scaling is. It could be very good. The cap had very little to do with a single characters low dps. I know on my necro I can only hit the bleed cap solo once every 15s or so, with a more consistant 22 stacks of bleed. At least for necro the removal of the cap won’t influence my solo dps very much. Not sure about other classes, though I suspect they too could only hit it in bursts, not sustained.

It’s also important to remember that conditions are not fire and forget in this game like other popular MMO’s. The damage rotation to maintain 20+ stacks of bleed on my necro is much more complicated than that of my direct damage thief or ele. One slip up and your average stacks on the target will decrease by 3 or 4. It is harder to notice the damage decrease since it is delayed, but it is still there and even more punishing than direct damage.

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Posted by: Thaddeus.4891

Thaddeus.4891

You can reach up to 2745 condition damage. Sigil of Bursting, Rune of the Undead, Sinister Ascended gear, malign infusion, stats from trait, banner of strength, Blood Injection for an engineer.

4493.75 dps from bleed
358.5 dps from poison
1014.25 dps from burning

Total of 5 866.5 condition damage. With the vulnerability that’s
5 866.5 × 1.25 = 7 333 dps

Anyway, those numbers are kind of irrelevant because a lot will change with that update, the stats from trait, trait themselves, gears, condition and we’ll have to do some math. But here my opinion.

For solo situation, some profession are almost on par with direct damage already. I don’t think that will change much since the two biggest change here will be for group play (the stacking problem and the vulnerability). Still, the engineer for example could be better in sinister gear than in direct damage gear because he can put so much vulnerability by it’s own.

For group, the gap will close quite a bit that’s for sure. Take a condition build into a dungeon or open world even won’t be a waste like right now, which is a HUGE step. But will condition build be able to compete on a dps level with direct damage build? With all those damage modifiers that doesn’t help condition, i’m not sure. Warrior might be good in condition since he have a medium direct damage right now and have a good condition build potentiel. Engineer could also be good, but he already have a high direct damage dps in group, so i’m not sure. Necromancer and Mesmer are also good candidate for good condition build since they have such terrible direct damage dps anyway. For Ele and Thief, I’m not sure. Their direct damage dps is too good.

It might or might not be enough to make direct damage and condition on par, but whatever the final result, it’s a step in the right direction.

Thaddeauz [xQCx]- QC GUILD

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Posted by: Tenrai Senshi.2017

Tenrai Senshi.2017

I think one mistake people make when they compare condition damage to the zerker meta, is that they tend to forget that they are comparing 1 stat (condition damage) to 3 stats (power, precision and ferocity).

Even with the changes to condition damage, it will never and should never outperform, or even match zerker gear on its own, because if it did, it would be ludicrously OP as a stat.

However, with that being said, I could see power, precision condition damage builds becoming a lot stronger, and possibly competing with the current zerker meta (sinister gear, as the OP mentioned). A mix of decent physical damage combined with high condition damage could offset the loss of ferocity’s crit damage modifier. In fact, it may even end up being superior as a whole. However, I do see some people only taking into consideration the condition damage of sinister gear without factoring in the physical damage as well.

Remember, if you’re going to make a comparison to a pure damage stat build, you have to use another pure damage stat build to vie with it. You can’t compare a toughness / vitality / condition damage build to a power / precision / ferocity build and expect the same damage output because one has three damage stats and another only one. But you could maybe expect similar amounts of damage output from a power / precision / condition damage build.

(edited by Tenrai Senshi.2017)

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Posted by: Orpheal.8263

Orpheal.8263

Condition Build should never compete in a 1:1 basis with direct damage builds and you know why?

Because direct damage builds require alot more player skills, than condition builds.
it requires alot more and better positioning of the direct damage build, the direct damage build in itself is also alot riskier to play because you need for example as thief to be in direct near to the enemy, risking to be hit self alot, while the condi builds can spam their aoe condis oftenyl from wide away from a safe spot, like Mesmers and Necromancers with their 1200 range condit skills and home in clones that cause conditons on destruction/defeat.

Condition builds are basically made for beginners with less game experience in this game, because the condis allow you to be successful without requiring too much positioning, cause when you can spam your enemy full with conditions faster, than he can remove all the Dots that you keep constantly on reapplying much faster, than any of the games condi removals can reload, then its for the condi spammer just a waiting game, until the DoTs do most of the job for you.
If you suffer on all DoTs at the same time and you don’t get them quickly awayy, because they get covered with other junk like weakness, cripple or immobilize and fear, then this is NO FUN.

It would be more balanced, if you as a player could directly decide over it, which conditions your removel skills should remove for you by markign them, before you use the skill. Then you could react a bit better on the situation by giving priority over what is more important to you to remove instantly and very often its alot better to remove a strong DoT over a silly condition like weakness

Personally I like the idea behind sub classes ~ quoted from Chris Whiteside

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Posted by: Extreme.8350

Extreme.8350

@Orpheal
Thats why this game was more balanced in beta when players were getting 2 shotted by zerker builds u think in counter strike a good player would be able to kill the whole team if they nerfed damage of all weapons by 10x ? No
u would have the snowball effect u have here.
bad players have asked for easier and more passive play and anet deliver

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Posted by: Tornupto.2304

Tornupto.2304

Because direct damage builds require alot more player skills, than condition builds.
it requires alot more and better positioning of the direct damage build, the direct damage build in itself is also alot riskier to play because you need for example as thief to be in direct near to the enemy, risking to be hit self alot, while the condi builds can spam their aoe condis oftenyl from wide away from a safe spot, like Mesmers and Necromancers with their 1200 range condit skills and home in clones that cause conditons on destruction/defeat.

I hope you know that a condi warrior is a meele condi? He has the same risks as every other meele.

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Posted by: ZudetGambeous.9573

ZudetGambeous.9573

Condition Build should never compete in a 1:1 basis with direct damage builds and you know why?

Because direct damage builds require alot more player skills, than condition builds.
it requires alot more and better positioning of the direct damage build, the direct damage build in itself is also alot riskier to play because you need for example as thief to be in direct near to the enemy, risking to be hit self alot, while the condi builds can spam their aoe condis oftenyl from wide away from a safe spot, like Mesmers and Necromancers with their 1200 range condit skills and home in clones that cause conditons on destruction/defeat.

Condition builds are basically made for beginners with less game experience in this game, because the condis allow you to be successful without requiring too much positioning, cause when you can spam your enemy full with conditions faster, than he can remove all the Dots that you keep constantly on reapplying much faster, than any of the games condi removals can reload, then its for the condi spammer just a waiting game, until the DoTs do most of the job for you.
If you suffer on all DoTs at the same time and you don’t get them quickly awayy, because they get covered with other junk like weakness, cripple or immobilize and fear, then this is NO FUN.

It would be more balanced, if you as a player could directly decide over it, which conditions your removel skills should remove for you by markign them, before you use the skill. Then you could react a bit better on the situation by giving priority over what is more important to you to remove instantly and very often its alot better to remove a strong DoT over a silly condition like weakness

That’s literally not at all how conditions work in this game… I would suggest reading up on condition builds in this game, or going to try one out. There isn’t a single thing right in your post so I won’t bother going over what is wrong about each thing.

I’ll just comment and say that condition builds require much more complex rotations that suffer much more from mistakes then direct damage builds.

Also base conditions are getting nerfed pretty hard. Builds that used full zerker gear and still got 20% of their damage from conditions will no longer exist. Using conditions with a non-condition build will now get you very little. We will probably see a lot more sinister geared players now.

Also with the removal of the cap condition damage, condition duration, and precision all increase condition dps now. Condition duration will need to be balanced, but a damage,duration,precision gear set could be the “zerker” of conditions.

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Posted by: bloodletting wolf.2837

bloodletting wolf.2837

Condition Build should never compete in a 1:1 basis with direct damage builds and you know why?

Because direct damage builds require alot more player skills, than condition builds.
it requires alot more and better positioning of the direct damage build, the direct damage build in itself is also alot riskier to play because you need for example as thief to be in direct near to the enemy, risking to be hit self alot, while the condi builds can spam their aoe condis oftenyl from wide away from a safe spot, like Mesmers and Necromancers with their 1200 range condit skills and home in clones that cause conditons on destruction/defeat.

Condition builds are basically made for beginners with less game experience in this game, because the condis allow you to be successful without requiring too much positioning, cause when you can spam your enemy full with conditions faster, than he can remove all the Dots that you keep constantly on reapplying much faster, than any of the games condi removals can reload, then its for the condi spammer just a waiting game, until the DoTs do most of the job for you.
If you suffer on all DoTs at the same time and you don’t get them quickly awayy, because they get covered with other junk like weakness, cripple or immobilize and fear, then this is NO FUN.

It would be more balanced, if you as a player could directly decide over it, which conditions your removel skills should remove for you by markign them, before you use the skill. Then you could react a bit better on the situation by giving priority over what is more important to you to remove instantly and very often its alot better to remove a strong DoT over a silly condition like weakness

This is nothing but misinformation. I play both power and condition builds and conditions aren’t easy mode. LTP

Kaa Mchorror NSP grenadier [hayt]

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Posted by: Thaddeus.4891

Thaddeus.4891

Condition Build should never compete in a 1:1 basis with direct damage builds and you know why?

Because direct damage builds require alot more player skills, than condition builds.
it requires alot more and better positioning of the direct damage build, the direct damage build in itself is also alot riskier to play because you need for example as thief to be in direct near to the enemy, risking to be hit self alot, while the condi builds can spam their aoe condis oftenyl from wide away from a safe spot, like Mesmers and Necromancers with their 1200 range condit skills and home in clones that cause conditons on destruction/defeat.

Condition builds are basically made for beginners with less game experience in this game, because the condis allow you to be successful without requiring too much positioning, cause when you can spam your enemy full with conditions faster, than he can remove all the Dots that you keep constantly on reapplying much faster, than any of the games condi removals can reload, then its for the condi spammer just a waiting game, until the DoTs do most of the job for you.
If you suffer on all DoTs at the same time and you don’t get them quickly awayy, because they get covered with other junk like weakness, cripple or immobilize and fear, then this is NO FUN.

It would be more balanced, if you as a player could directly decide over it, which conditions your removel skills should remove for you by markign them, before you use the skill. Then you could react a bit better on the situation by giving priority over what is more important to you to remove instantly and very often its alot better to remove a strong DoT over a silly condition like weakness

What?? That’s so bad lol. You assume that all condition build will play from 1200 range?

1) Some direct damage build are melee and some are range, exact same thing with condition damage. Some are range and some are melee.

2) Even in a range build you need to keep near your team to share buff. Staff Elementalist is a range build and still need to stay near the target and it will be the same with a condition build.

3) Condition build isn’t more easy to play. That the specific way a build work and is played that decided that. A sinister or assassin grenade engineer will almost play exactly the same. So right there your point is debunked. The fact that you play condition or direct damage doesn’t mean that you have an easier or harder build to play. It’s how the build is played that matter. Does most of my damage come from my auto-attack or from different skill. Can I just spam all my skill when they come out CD or do I need to use a specific rotation to increase their efficiency. That’s what make the difference.

Where I do agree with you is when you say that Condition Damage and Direct Damage shouldn’t compete on a 1:1 basis. They should feel and play different. They should have different strength and weakness. I my opinion, condition build should have a higher potentiel dps than direct damage. But Condition build need a build up time, while direct damage have a higher initial burst. That way, condition is better against bosses with high hp, while direct damage is better against bronze and silver mobs. While both would be good against gold champion. Add to that a clear distinction between high armor and normal armor mobs. Those high armor will be easier to kill with condition (like husk) and normal armor mobs will be easier to kill by direct damage. That give a good diversity that push people to bring different build for different encounter. Of course, no composition shouldn’t be able to complete a encounter. So you can’t make a boss with high armor that 5 direct damage build will take 15min to kill. Or waves of mobs with normal armor that 5 condition build won’t be able to kill fast enough.

Thaddeauz [xQCx]- QC GUILD

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Posted by: Orpheal.8263

Orpheal.8263

Condition Build should never compete in a 1:1 basis with direct damage builds and you know why?

Because direct damage builds require alot more player skills, than condition builds.
it requires alot more and better positioning of the direct damage build, the direct damage build in itself is also alot riskier to play because you need for example as thief to be in direct near to the enemy, risking to be hit self alot, while the condi builds can spam their aoe condis oftenyl from wide away from a safe spot, like Mesmers and Necromancers with their 1200 range condit skills and home in clones that cause conditons on destruction/defeat.

Condition builds are basically made for beginners with less game experience in this game, because the condis allow you to be successful without requiring too much positioning, cause when you can spam your enemy full with conditions faster, than he can remove all the Dots that you keep constantly on reapplying much faster, than any of the games condi removals can reload, then its for the condi spammer just a waiting game, until the DoTs do most of the job for you.
If you suffer on all DoTs at the same time and you don’t get them quickly awayy, because they get covered with other junk like weakness, cripple or immobilize and fear, then this is NO FUN.

It would be more balanced, if you as a player could directly decide over it, which conditions your removel skills should remove for you by markign them, before you use the skill. Then you could react a bit better on the situation by giving priority over what is more important to you to remove instantly and very often its alot better to remove a strong DoT over a silly condition like weakness

This is nothing but misinformation. I play both power and condition builds and conditions aren’t easy mode. LTP

They are, if you know how to play them out well and how you make with them constant pressure, based on it that you use also the right buffs, the right upgrades and runes to maximize your builds synergy to help you out getting a simple easy mode, especially in WvW and thats what I’m mostly talking about.

SBE

Personally I like the idea behind sub classes ~ quoted from Chris Whiteside

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Posted by: bloodletting wolf.2837

bloodletting wolf.2837

Condition Build should never compete in a 1:1 basis with direct damage builds and you know why?

Because direct damage builds require alot more player skills, than condition builds.
it requires alot more and better positioning of the direct damage build, the direct damage build in itself is also alot riskier to play because you need for example as thief to be in direct near to the enemy, risking to be hit self alot, while the condi builds can spam their aoe condis oftenyl from wide away from a safe spot, like Mesmers and Necromancers with their 1200 range condit skills and home in clones that cause conditons on destruction/defeat.

Condition builds are basically made for beginners with less game experience in this game, because the condis allow you to be successful without requiring too much positioning, cause when you can spam your enemy full with conditions faster, than he can remove all the Dots that you keep constantly on reapplying much faster, than any of the games condi removals can reload, then its for the condi spammer just a waiting game, until the DoTs do most of the job for you.
If you suffer on all DoTs at the same time and you don’t get them quickly awayy, because they get covered with other junk like weakness, cripple or immobilize and fear, then this is NO FUN.

It would be more balanced, if you as a player could directly decide over it, which conditions your removel skills should remove for you by markign them, before you use the skill. Then you could react a bit better on the situation by giving priority over what is more important to you to remove instantly and very often its alot better to remove a strong DoT over a silly condition like weakness

This is nothing but misinformation. I play both power and condition builds and conditions aren’t easy mode. LTP

They are, if you know how to play them out well and how you make with them constant pressure, based on it that you use also the right buffs, the right upgrades and runes to maximize your builds synergy to help you out getting a simple easy mode, especially in WvW and thats what I’m mostly talking about.

SBE

I fail to see how your reasoning behind why condition builds are easy does not apply to power builds as well.

Kaa Mchorror NSP grenadier [hayt]

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Posted by: Jerus.4350

Jerus.4350

They are, if you know how to play them out well and how you make with them constant pressure, based on it that you use also the right buffs, the right upgrades and runes to maximize your builds synergy to help you out getting a simple easy mode, especially in WvW and thats what I’m mostly talking about.

SBE

And that’s where you’re making your big mistake. Read the title of the thread again, then read the bolded, keep going back and forth till you understand

We’re talking PVE, where pressure isn’t really a thing because we’re fighting NPCs which rarely heal. To maximize your damage with Condi’s you’ll still need to do a proper rotation just like Power damage, in some cases I’d bet the condi option would actually be more intricate, though I’m not sure “hard/easy” would be the words I’d use. Camp your GS on War facerolling your keyboard or dance between Sword/sword and Longbow for condi, surely more intricate. Engi I think power will be a bit more intricate just because you swap to the third kit twice as often using FT compared to Flame Bomb which I’m thinking would be used for condi builds.

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Posted by: Zenos Osgorma.2936

Zenos Osgorma.2936

Condition Build should never compete in a 1:1 basis with direct damage builds and you know why?

Because direct damage builds require alot more player skills, than condition builds.
it requires alot more and better positioning of the direct damage build, the direct damage build in itself is also alot riskier to play because you need for example as thief to be in direct near to the enemy, risking to be hit self alot, while the condi builds can spam their aoe condis oftenyl from wide away from a safe spot, like Mesmers and Necromancers with their 1200 range condit skills and home in clones that cause conditons on destruction/defeat.

Condition builds are basically made for beginners with less game experience in this game, because the condis allow you to be successful without requiring too much positioning, cause when you can spam your enemy full with conditions faster, than he can remove all the Dots that you keep constantly on reapplying much faster, than any of the games condi removals can reload, then its for the condi spammer just a waiting game, until the DoTs do most of the job for you.
If you suffer on all DoTs at the same time and you don’t get them quickly awayy, because they get covered with other junk like weakness, cripple or immobilize and fear, then this is NO FUN.

It would be more balanced, if you as a player could directly decide over it, which conditions your removel skills should remove for you by markign them, before you use the skill. Then you could react a bit better on the situation by giving priority over what is more important to you to remove instantly and very often its alot better to remove a strong DoT over a silly condition like weakness

This is nothing but misinformation. I play both power and condition builds and conditions aren’t easy mode. LTP

They are, if you know how to play them out well and how you make with them constant pressure, based on it that you use also the right buffs, the right upgrades and runes to maximize your builds synergy to help you out getting a simple easy mode, especially in WvW and thats what I’m mostly talking about.

SBE

I fail to see how your reasoning behind why condition builds are easy does not apply to power builds as well.

people are seperating condi damage from direct when in fact both are one in the same , just because you speced for more power means you do more pshyical damage means it can get negated pshyicaly .

and condi set up is the same its the yin to your yang , passives , heals+ cleanses and Blasting waters are the Negating effect for condi builds poorly time your condi bursts or build up of condis only too see it all go down the toilet just like Direct damage being negated by psyhical negating.

all they are doing is bringing condi damage into equal play vs full damage at its max end so Max condi speced builds should do the same amount of damage as a ful direct over 10secs rather than its current where it can not scale beyond 20k every 10secs.

if you get my drift.

(edited by Zenos Osgorma.2936)

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Posted by: Orpheal.8263

Orpheal.8263

They are, if you know how to play them out well and how you make with them constant pressure, based on it that you use also the right buffs, the right upgrades and runes to maximize your builds synergy to help you out getting a simple easy mode, especially in WvW and thats what I’m mostly talking about.

SBE

And that’s where you’re making your big mistake. Read the title of the thread again, then read the bolded, keep going back and forth till you understand

We’re talking PVE, where pressure isn’t really a thing because we’re fighting NPCs which rarely heal. To maximize your damage with Condi’s you’ll still need to do a proper rotation just like Power damage, in some cases I’d bet the condi option would actually be more intricate, though I’m not sure “hard/easy” would be the words I’d use. Camp your GS on War facerolling your keyboard or dance between Sword/sword and Longbow for condi, surely more intricate. Engi I think power will be a bit more intricate just because you swap to the third kit twice as often using FT compared to Flame Bomb which I’m thinking would be used for condi builds.

The point is, anets changes won’t just only affect PvE, they will affect everything of this game, including massively WvW, unless ANet starts to make finally more changes, that are splitted between the game modes, but with changes to the whole general combat system, thats affectign the whole game, this is hardly to impossible doable.
Skill Effect Splits, yes, but making differences in the combat system for different game modes?
Have you ever seen a single MMORPG doing this successfully?? I not.

@ zenos: yes I understood what you mean. I’m just worried, that these changes will make condi spammers suddenly too powerful

Personally I like the idea behind sub classes ~ quoted from Chris Whiteside

(edited by Orpheal.8263)

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Posted by: Sorin.4310

Sorin.4310

I think people underestimate some condition builds. Group theoretical cond damage right now is over 11k.

http://www.dtguilds.com/forum/m/6563292/viewthread/12956045-ebola-warrior-pve-dps-condition-damage-build-for-solo-play

Build up time & overlapping conditions bring that down. But vuln changes & increased cond damage with the change might actually make condi warrior good enough to be competitive, if not the absolute best.

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Posted by: Julie Yann.5379

Julie Yann.5379

I think WvW will be scary place with these changes. Condition spamming is already strong there. In PvE, while probably not optimal for breaking speed records they should at least be strong enough to not be shunned by the sheep.

Be careful what you wish for, Anet might just give it to you “HoT”
“…let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we shall die;.”

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Posted by: Artemis Thuras.8795

Artemis Thuras.8795

I think people underestimate some condition builds. Group theoretical cond damage right now is over 11k.

http://www.dtguilds.com/forum/m/6563292/viewthread/12956045-ebola-warrior-pve-dps-condition-damage-build-for-solo-play

Build up time & overlapping conditions bring that down. But vuln changes & increased cond damage with the change might actually make condi warrior good enough to be competitive, if not the absolute best.

Aside from my thought : sinister > rabid..
the utility food.. reminded me:

Potions don’t affect condi damage.
Which is a huge thorn in the side of condi being accepted in dungeon parties.

Co-Leader of The Mythical Dragons [MYTH],
Advocate of learning and being a useful party member.
http://mythdragons.enjin.com/recruitment

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Posted by: ZudetGambeous.9573

ZudetGambeous.9573

I think people underestimate some condition builds. Group theoretical cond damage right now is over 11k.

http://www.dtguilds.com/forum/m/6563292/viewthread/12956045-ebola-warrior-pve-dps-condition-damage-build-for-solo-play

Build up time & overlapping conditions bring that down. But vuln changes & increased cond damage with the change might actually make condi warrior good enough to be competitive, if not the absolute best.

First off he states the maximum is 9k not 11k, so there goes 2k right off the bat.

but my question is, where does all the extra dps come from? He never actually shows the build in the video in action.

even assuming 100% uptime of 25 might stacks (is this possible solo?) and 100% uptime of 25 stacks of bleed (is this possible on warrior?) that is only 4.3k dps

100% burn uptime is 1.2k dps

that gives 5.5k dps, where is his other 4k coming from? I highly doubt condition warrior attacks do 4k dps in rabid gear. If they can then they need a serious nerf. a full condition necro does ~250dps in full rabid gear without condition.

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Posted by: Thaddeus.4891

Thaddeus.4891

but my question is, where does all the extra dps come from? He never actually shows the build in the video in action.

even assuming 100% uptime of 25 might stacks (is this possible solo?) and 100% uptime of 25 stacks of bleed (is this possible on warrior?) that is only 4.3k dps

100% burn uptime is 1.2k dps

that gives 5.5k dps, where is his other 4k coming from? I highly doubt condition warrior attacks do 4k dps in rabid gear. If they can then they need a serious nerf. a full condition necro does ~250dps in full rabid gear without condition.

The 9k dps is in group situation. In solo situation, it’s 7k dps.

So in group situation, you gonna have Banners, 25 Stack of Might, etc. In those condition, just the direct damage from auto-attacking with the sword will give around 2.5k dps. Take into account the minor trait that give you 10% damage modifier against bleeding foe and 25 stack of vulnerability and you get near 3.5k of direct damage.

That’s just a quick calculation and we already see that the numbers are working.
3.5k of direct damage and 5.5k of condition damage equal to around 9k of total dps for group situation. In reality, it’s probably more like 4-4.5k of direct damage and kitten of condition damage, but I don’t really want to do the complete math on it. DNT’s number seem right.

Thaddeauz [xQCx]- QC GUILD

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Posted by: Xenon.4537

Xenon.4537

It will all depend on how much they buff conditions.

Currently with 25 stacks of might and full sinister gear:

25 stacks of bleed =4k dps
Burning = 1k dps
Poison = 300 dps

total dps = 5.3k dps (single target)

Meta ele build with 25 stacks of might (stacks it themselves) = 12k dps (AOE)
Meta thief build with 25 stacks of might = 11-13k (Single target)

To bring conditions up to meta status this change would have to more than double the damage from conditions, and even then that doesn’t count build up time.

I’m certain burning ticks for more than 1k at 25 might. Also these numbers don’t take into account the following:

  • New condi scaling
  • New vuln affecting condi
  • New burn/poison stack
  • New confusion DoT
  • New damage potential beyond 25 stacks

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Posted by: PaxTheGreatOne.9472

PaxTheGreatOne.9472

I’ll see if my sinister sword sword longbow warrior get’s viable now with proper traits.
Maybe add some toughness or vitality with rabid and/or dire rings.

Oh and at present if you have a condi mesmer and you get burning on someone (prestige?) you can do 1174 dmg with corruption stacks, bursting and crystal and food My p[roblem with mesmer has always been the incredulous short durations of all the conditions. especially with 3 staff clones….

2 remarks about conditions,

some builds remove 10+ conditions in a row, causing low dmg until you rebuild the DOT stacks
resistance will be a hindrance.

WVW? => Epidemic.

23 lvl 80’s, 9 times map, 4ele, 4ncr, 3war, 3grd, 3rgr, 2thf, 2msm, 1eng, 1 rev.
Been There, Done That & Will do it again…except maybe world completion.

(edited by PaxTheGreatOne.9472)

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Posted by: Sube Dai.8496

Sube Dai.8496

Yeh WvW might turn into a complete AOE condition spamfest.

Might break up zergs though…

John Snowman [GLTY]
Space Marine Z [GLTY]