Conditions
it’s 25 per target(so yes, the whole group)
there’s two reasons why it’s capped: performance issues tied with having each person have it’s own cap of 25 on each target; and to prevent boss fights from being completely trivial.
GamersWithJobs [GWJ]
Northern Shiverpeaks
Northern Shiverpeaks
25 conditions on a boss from a group of like 50 people? That’s ridiculous, that’s barely enough for 1 person let alone 50+ ….
1250 stacks of bleeding on one mob sounds way more ridiculous.
GamersWithJobs [GWJ]
Northern Shiverpeaks
Northern Shiverpeaks
Actually, even with 1250 stacks of bleedings, zerker would still deal more damage.
But as said before,
limited by technical reasons, not design ones.
they could easily change this to 10 per person and still have plenty of bandwidth I’m sure. Besides the fact is that other games have allowed a per person stack in games where hybrid classes exist, Rift comes to mind immediately.
Balance Team: Please Fix Mine Toolbelt Positioning!
it’s 25 per target(so yes, the whole group)
there’s two reasons why it’s capped: performance issues tied with having each person have it’s own cap of 25 on each target; and to prevent boss fights from being completely trivial.
On performance issues.
Open world – Yes
WvW – Yes
Dungeons – Bad excuse.
If the zone is limited to 5 people, there are no performance issues with bleeds. If I have in WvW 100 people fighting 100 people, and each of them can stack 25 bleeds on each other, that is 5000 bleeds the game has to track. That can happen in WvW right now.
You want to tell me that a bleed cap of 125 is going to cause performance issues in a 5 man dungeon? Don’t just regurgitate what they tell you is the case when it is a situational excuse at best.
Balance is another thing entirely… but I hardly think a bleed cap of modest increase to 50 would make a big difference to balance, and it would make bleeders not feel wasted in an already with bleeder group.
The whole reason zerker will always be better than a condition build.
Dungeons – Bad excuse.
If the zone is limited to 5 people, there are no performance issues with bleeds.
No, but I’m guessing they don’t want to split the entire condition system into two versions, one for small instances and one for everything else.
fragmenting the combat system even further than the small pvp/pve skill differences would be pretty bad no? do you really want core combat systems to function differently for every part of the game?
GamersWithJobs [GWJ]
Northern Shiverpeaks
Northern Shiverpeaks
Dungeons – Bad excuse.
If the zone is limited to 5 people, there are no performance issues with bleeds.
No, but I’m guessing they don’t want to split the entire condition system into two versions, one for small instances and one for everything else.
fragmenting the combat system even further than the small pvp/pve skill differences would be pretty bad no? do you really want core combat systems to function differently for every part of the game?
This is also not a core change to mechanics, it is just removing/raising the limiter on bleeding… hardly a sweeping change. That would silence 99% of the complaints about conditions an PVE.
And I am all for fragmented mechanics… If the system calls for it. They changed retaliation and confusion in WvW and PVP because it was too strong. How about a change to bleeding in PVE because it is too weak? Makes sense to me. Then at least if they make the change to dungeons I can believe them about the “performance” issues.
There is no ‘balance reason’ for conditions to be capped on the target
A limit to the condition stacks a single character can apply is fine and necessary for balance. But, a limit to the number of conditions a target can have from multiple attackers is not ok.
From a balance perspective:
If it is ok for one character to stack 15 stacks of bleeding (or 1 stack of burning)…
Then it is ok for 100 characters to stack 1,500 stacks of bleeding (or 100 stacks of burning).
It is the exact same as…
If one character can hit 1,000 DPS of direct damage
Then it is ok for 100 characters to hit 100,000 DPS of direct damage.
There may be technical reasons why the stacks of conditions are capped on the target, but that is what we want the developers to fix/address, and A-net has acknowledged since October 2012 that this is an issue.
Conditions being useless in group settings (in a multi-player game) hurts build diversity… and hurts the game.
Ulari
Ulari
“I don’t do as much damage as zerker dps machines” is not the same thing as “being useless”, nor are conditions strictly about damage.
GamersWithJobs [GWJ]
Northern Shiverpeaks
Northern Shiverpeaks
they could easily change this to 10 per person and still have plenty of bandwidth I’m sure.
Oh yes I’m sure the limit is in place out of sheer hate Arenanet has towards condition builds.
“We have no first-person view because stupid people would lock into it”
“You can’t have more than 10 HS decks because that would confuse people”
“30 fps is more cinematic”
“You can’t have more than 10 HS decks because that would confuse people”
“30 fps is more cinematic”
“I don’t do as much damage as zerker dps machines” is not the same thing as “being useless”, nor are conditions strictly about damage.
Agreed.
I have no problem if the design of the game dictates that condition damage focused characters should do 80% of what a berserker warrior could do… nor do I have any problem if a the game dictates that a condition character should do 130% of the damage of a berserker warrior if nobody clears the applied conditions.
My issue is that a condition character may be fine solo, but is worthless in a group.
What I am trying to get across is a character who relies on conditions to do damage is kittened if any other characters are attacking the same target because they are now competing for stacks.
Ulari
Ulari
1250 stacks of bleeding on one mob sounds way more ridiculous.
I wish people would stop saying this…
1 condition DPS does not out damage 1 direct damage DPS
So why on earth would you think 5 condition damage DPS would out damage 5 direct damage DPS?
Direct damage also gets better stat coefficients thanks to how power vs condition damage scales.
Oh yea and conditions cant crit!
In other words conditions do not inherently deal more damage than direct damage
having 1250 stacks of bleeding on a target from 50 different condition users is not any different or any more damage than having 50 direct damage dealers on that same target. So who cares? It’s still 50 people dealing ~2500 DPS Why does it even matter that some is overtime and some is direct. the only thing that changes is now condition builds are as useful as direct damage!
That is why we call it Damage Per Second. Because it doesn’t matter if you are heavy upfront of heavy backend. You are still doing the same amount of damage over the course of the fight!
I don’t even know why this is a conversation amongst the players, there is no other MMO that handles DOTs like this. The entire idea that if another person of your class is attacking the enemy with DOTs you both lose damage, is insane! but guild wars 2 takes that a step further if anyone that uses damage over time at all of any class is attacking the same target with DOTs you both lose damage! Then they gave certain classes pure DOT based damage specs!
I’m not even sure why there is a problem… Like I said I haven’t seen this issue in any other MMO before. You can roll with a 40 man DOT team and everyone putting DOTs on the boss and… no issue at all. Might not do to well on the fight but the point is everyone having their own DOTs shouldn’t even be an issue.
_______
Edit
“I don’t do as much damage as zerker dps machines” is not the same thing as “being useless”, nor are conditions strictly about damage.
Yes they are! Every condition damage build revolves around dealing damage with conditions. The non damaging conditions (Vulnerability, Chilled, Crippled, Immobilized, Crippled, and Weakness) Can and are applied by nearly every spec whether direct damage or condition damage based, and has the same effectiveness. If direct damage deals more damage and applies the same exact utility conditions at the same effectiveness what is the point of condition builds?
(edited by Lokki.1092)
I hear people asking that, in group play, they be allowed to do as much damage with their condition build as they do solo. This is a status that all direct damage builds enjoy, hence it is not an unreasonable request. What is unreasonable is that ANet seems to be the only MMO developer that cannot produce a system in which DoT builds do as much damage in large-numbers play as they do solo.
holy kittening boy. Conditions are plenty OP in WVW and pvp. why not stick to where they work instead of expecting them to be better than power builds in every single aspect of the game. there is a reason zerker deals more damage. its called conditions are 1 stat zerker takes 3. now kitten and go stack some more defense and zerg around for 5 hours.
If direct damage deals more damage and applies the same exact utility conditions at the same effectiveness what is the point of condition builds?
same effectiveness?
if you truly believe that then there’s not much more to be said here, we’re not playing the same game apparently. /shrug
GamersWithJobs [GWJ]
Northern Shiverpeaks
Northern Shiverpeaks
If direct damage deals more damage and applies the same exact utility conditions at the same effectiveness what is the point of condition builds?
same effectiveness?
if you truly believe that then there’s not much more to be said here, we’re not playing the same game apparently. /shrug
Well then.
Please explain to me how condition damage makes an engineer’s blind better than a guardians?
I play both. Clearly I’m missing something.
Or how condition damage makes Necromancer’s vulnerability, better than warriors perhaps?
In WoW
Way back in 2006 or so… Warlocks had to coordinate which warlock applied which DoT to the mob because the mob would not hold more then one of each DoT.
Also back in the dark ages of 2007 or so… WoW only allowed 12 negative conditions on a mob. So Warlocks (as the primary DoT class) were screwed.
WoW fixed this in 2008!!
Guild Wars encourages build diversity.
Guild Wars allows every profession to apply DoTs.
Guild Wars points certain professions towards DoT focused builds.
Guild Wars is an MMO (and encourages multi-player much better than previous MMOs).
Guild Wars punishes characters relying on their DoTs when they play with other people!!
Ulari
Ulari
In WoW
Way back in 2006 or so… Warlocks had to coordinate which warlock applied which DoT to the mob because the mob would not hold more then one of each DoT.Also back in the dark ages of 2007 or so… WoW only allowed 12 negative conditions on a mob. So Warlocks (as the primary DoT class) were screwed.
WoW fixed this in 2008!!
Guild Wars encourages build diversity.
Guild Wars allows every profession to apply DoTs.
Guild Wars points certain professions towards DoT focused builds.
Guild Wars is an MMO (and encourages multi-player much better than previous MMOs).
Guild Wars punishes characters relying on their DoTs when they play with other people!!Ulari
people have made snide remarks about Anet hating condition builds well they must not care at the very least with the way they treat this thing seriously.
but then again look at their track history for even their own version of the trinity. It doesn’t exist. might as well not have CC and healing skills much less the condition builds available if you’re not going to allow these mechanics to be used properly in your game right?
I could see the excuses holding up in court if other game titles didn’t already fix this problem years ago, once again history proves that a problem they are sitting on is already solved but still hasn’t been patched. Like the pet problems in this game, already solved long ago in multiple game titles still aren’t fixed in GW2 and it’s already been the anniversary.
Balance Team: Please Fix Mine Toolbelt Positioning!
(edited by tigirius.9014)
holy kittening boy. Conditions are plenty OP in WVW and pvp. why not stick to where they work instead of expecting them to be better than power builds in every single aspect of the game. there is a reason zerker deals more damage. its called conditions are 1 stat zerker takes 3. now kitten and go stack some more defense and zerg around for 5 hours.
Wrong,
- Conditiondamage is equal to power,
- Precision + Sigil/traits is equal to precision on a Power build
- Condition duration is equal to Critdmg.
The only difference is there is no set, that give Con dmg, prec, cond durration. That would be the equivalent to berserker gear. Therefore we get high durration out of runes, which makes conditionsbuilds strong, because they can choose a defensive stat.