This is an important topic that I feel needs to be brought to ANet’s attention. In short, Magic Find gear encourages selfish behaviour by giving better rewards to individuals while hampering the group. See first post in link for a better explanation than I can give.
It sure won’t be an easy thing to “fix”, but discussion is good. I agree with link’s OP and others that MF should not be in gear, and that MF needs to be implemented differently, as currently, it seems to encourage bypassing of content (esp. in dungeons) just to reach the large rewards.
Magic find was either poorly planned or poorly executed, I’m not sure which… but there is no way its current implementation is working as it was originally intended. It’s simply too broken for that.
For a solo player it makes perfect sense- give up survivability and damage for an increased drop rates. But in a group? You get increased drop rates while everyone else gets to carry you.
Personally, I think the fastest quick fix they could do is just creating an aura on a player if they wear any MF gear, to alert other players they are wearing it. If the group wants to deal with that, more power to them. If not, then they can find a different group.
This seems to have been written by somebody who is anti-MF and probably had an MF leech in the party.
I have MF gear and I have PVT gear. I do more damage on with my MF armor than I do my PVT armor. As long as I don’t go down then I keep MF armor on.
I don’t agree with MF. I feel like it’s a crappy system and anet should get rid of it and just up ALL drops overall. However, I don’t think people should get mad at other people for using MF. This game is more about coordination and party synergy than one person having 300 more power.
Seems to me they should go the route Blizzard did in Diablo 3. Every group member’s MF is summed then split evenly among the group. Perhaps not the perfect solution (really is no such thing since you’ll never satisfy everyone), but probably the most fair.
Yes, the same topic came up a while ago with the same confession. It would appear to be an anti-MF poster posing as a leech.
Regardless, MF creates perceived problems in groups whether they actually exist or not. D3 tried making it shared and people cried about that so they reverted it. Then they instituted paragon levels to eventually remove it from gear over time.
It was initially implemented to give players a risk/reward mechanic to play with. Because it has only caused problems in groups it probably has no place on gear in an MMO.
It was initially implemented to give players a risk/reward mechanic to play with. Because it has only caused problems in groups it probably has no place on gear in an MMO.
Pretty much this. MF shares the risk equally among the group, but doesn’t share the reward.
Seems to me they should go the route Blizzard did in Diablo 3. Every group member’s MF is summed then split evenly among the group. Perhaps not the perfect solution (really is no such thing since you’ll never satisfy everyone), but probably the most fair.
Yes, they did make it shared, then switched it back as a different outcry ensued. Their ultimate solution was to remove it from gear over time through paragon levels which lead you to an MF cap.
I’m seeing more and more signs that Magic Find does affect the group as a whole, and that 3-4 people with magic find grouped together farming lodestones are vastly more effectively than those same 3-4 working together ungrouped.
“You keep saying ‘its unfair.’
I wonder what your basis for comparison is…”
- Jareth, King of Goblins.
Seems to me they should go the route Blizzard did in Diablo 3. Every group member’s MF is summed then split evenly among the group. Perhaps not the perfect solution (really is no such thing since you’ll never satisfy everyone), but probably the most fair.
Yes, they did make it shared, then switched it back as a different outcry ensued. Their ultimate solution was to remove it from gear over time through paragon levels which lead you to an MF cap.
Ah, heh. Haven’t played in months (as you can probably tell). From recent patch notes and discussions I’ve seen though, it’s just about the game it ought to have been at release now.
Seems to me they should go the route Blizzard did in Diablo 3. Every group member’s MF is summed then split evenly among the group. Perhaps not the perfect solution (really is no such thing since you’ll never satisfy everyone), but probably the most fair.
Yes, they did make it shared, then switched it back as a different outcry ensued. Their ultimate solution was to remove it from gear over time through paragon levels which lead you to an MF cap.
Ah, heh. Haven’t played in months (as you can probably tell). From recent patch notes and discussions I’ve seen though, it’s just about the game it ought to have been at release now.
Yeah, I played for 600 hours or so from release and it was a rough ride. I still follow the game but it has been ages since I’ve logged in. They do seem to be making some positive changes so I may give it a try from time to time.
With DR in open world, the sole purpose of MF gear is for dungeon farming. heck I run fotm in Full MF and do just fine. Most of my run gets done in under a hour plus as a bonus I find named exotic in almost every 5-8 run.
This was the predictable next step. All MF threads follow a formula and you simply can’t leave one without questions of player skill outweighing the difference in damage stats. That there is a difference in damage stats is incontrovertible. That’s the risk/reward scenario that MF affords in a game. Whether it is significant in any given group because of relative player skill is irrelevant. The issue is that it creates a perceived problem in group play that won’t go away—no matter what. Sharing MF creates a different problem—why shouldn’t I benefit from all the MF gear I’ve invested in? MF is fine single-player; it will always create problems when players play with other players.
You sacrifice a more than 1/3 of your stats if you stack MF gear. If you need proof that that causes a negative impact, you’re obviously not using your noggin.
Seriously, you could save the gold and time you spend on exotic MF gear (which would more than make up for the extra loot you get from having it) and just buy cheap greens and blues. They’re gonna make you just as useful in a dungeon as MF gear will.
To be clear, if you wanna run MF in the open world doing events and general farming, more power to you. Just don’t screw over your party by bringing that crap into a dungeon or a fractal.
With DR in open world, the sole purpose of MF gear is for dungeon farming. heck I run fotm in Full MF and do just fine. Most of my run gets done in under a hour plus as a bonus I find named exotic in almost every 5-8 run.
MF works, no question about it. I personally like to feel like a hero while I farm rather than a farmer, but freely admit that MF rocks for efficient farming.
Let me give another solution to the MF problem. Remove MF, remove DR, and tune the loot system so that the game feels rewarding for players playing the game. That’s the underlying issue isn’t it? We want to experience reward for playing the game. I don’t think MF needs to be part of the package, principally because it creates problems for players playing with other players that won’t go away until MF is removed from gear.
MF is not an issue when you’re playing ALONE. it is an issue when you use it in dungeons, playing with 4 other people who prolly wants to finish the dungeon fast because they got other things to do IRL.
Key word is perceived. Nobody has proved through numbers what the impact is. Yes skill is more important than stats. I assumed everyone knows this so I was referring to stats alone.
Key word is perceived. Nobody has proved through numbers what the impact is. Yes skill is more important than stats. I assumed everyone knows this so I was referring to stats alone.
say both persons have equal skill level: MF person is the person with less +Critical damage or +Toughness compared to Berserkers or Knights Person. You are inherently impaired by your lack of important stats. You cannot make excuses out of this.
It’s not perceived. It is recorded on the server. It’s embedded in binary code out of your client.. Your character is telling the server that your damage is lesser thus you kill slowly or your toughness is lesser so you die most of the time.
Key word is perceived. Nobody has proved through numbers what the impact is. Yes skill is more important than stats. I assumed everyone knows this so I was referring to stats alone.
say both persons have equal skill level: MF person is the person with less +Critical damage or +Toughness compared to Berserkers or Knights Person. You are inherently impaired by your lack of important stats. You cannot make excuses out of this.
This. Like I said, put on non-MF blues or greens, and your stats are gonna roughly equal out. You’ll save 25-30g in the price of a full exotic set, and there’s no way that MF boost is going to gain you that much extra stuff.
I run FotM all the time with NO MF AT ALL. I have had runs where I’ve gotten as many as EIGHT rares and a couple lodestones. I get exotics every 5-10 runs too. I also have more Shards than I know what to do with…
You sacrifice a more than 1/3 of your stats if you stack MF gear. If you need proof that that causes a negative impact, you’re obviously not using your noggin.
Seriously, you could save the gold and time you spend on exotic MF gear (which would more than make up for the extra loot you get from having it) and just buy cheap greens and blues. They’re gonna make you just as useful in a dungeon as MF gear will.
To be clear, if you wanna run MF in the open world doing events and general farming, more power to you. Just don’t screw over your party by bringing that crap into a dungeon or a fractal.
Then I guess those running dungeons in blues and greens are being selfish for not farming solo to buy exotics.
You can use berserker armor or pvt armor and still get great MF. You don’t have to sacrifice the third stat by getting armor that has MF built in.
You sacrifice a more than 1/3 of your stats if you stack MF gear. If you need proof that that causes a negative impact, you’re obviously not using your noggin.
Seriously, you could save the gold and time you spend on exotic MF gear (which would more than make up for the extra loot you get from having it) and just buy cheap greens and blues. They’re gonna make you just as useful in a dungeon as MF gear will.
To be clear, if you wanna run MF in the open world doing events and general farming, more power to you. Just don’t screw over your party by bringing that crap into a dungeon or a fractal.
Then I guess those running dungeons in blues and greens are being selfish for not farming solo to buy exotics.
There is a firm difference between someone who isn’t capable of having something, and someone who chooses not to have something. If you aren’t just being belligerent and really can’t see the difference in the two situations, then you have far more to worry about than video game woes.
You sacrifice a more than 1/3 of your stats if you stack MF gear. If you need proof that that causes a negative impact, you’re obviously not using your noggin.
Seriously, you could save the gold and time you spend on exotic MF gear (which would more than make up for the extra loot you get from having it) and just buy cheap greens and blues. They’re gonna make you just as useful in a dungeon as MF gear will.
To be clear, if you wanna run MF in the open world doing events and general farming, more power to you. Just don’t screw over your party by bringing that crap into a dungeon or a fractal.
Then I guess those running dungeons in blues and greens are being selfish for not farming solo to buy exotics.
You can use berserker armor or pvt armor and still get great MF. You don’t have to sacrifice the third stat by getting armor that has MF built in.
I’m comparing the logic of running with MF gear to the logic of running end-game with blues or greens. The benefit is the same. More money and time. The hit is the same. You’re squishy, weak, and a drag on the rest of your party. It’s selfish and stupid to stack MF in dungeons/fractals.
Key word is perceived. Nobody has proved through numbers what the impact is. Yes skill is more important than stats. I assumed everyone knows this so I was referring to stats alone.
I use the word perceived carefully and on purpose because we don’t truly know the impact in a hypothetical group of players with different skill levels. The problem is in the numbers. Go online or in-game and take a look at berserker and traveler gear. Add up the player stats that contribute to performance in a group fight. The difference is factual and significant.
The dynamic of MF is that you expose yourself to risk (gimp yourself) to realize a higher chance of reward. That’s the game of MF. Now take it to group play. You have gimped yourself by definition and that means you are contributing less than you could be.
I knew you were going to ‘skill’ outweighing stats even though you didn’t mention it in your initial post and that’s why I addressed it. The skill in the discussion is hypothetical and theoretical, the numbers are real. So, since we don’t know about skill in any given grouping of players, we are left with the perceived problem caused by the very real difference in player stats. MF threads always come to questions of player skill. They are, however, irrelevant to the problem we are addressing.
Edit: Make that Explorer rather than Traveler gear, sorry.
I’m still trying to determine if MF combined with my poor luck is worth it. In the early levels of fractals, I would have MF gear on during the trash mobs, and put on good armor for the bosses. Sure, I got some rares (which I get still with no MF gear) but I didn’t find one vial of condensed mist essence. During a later fractal, I just said screw it and went with my normal armor set. Probably ~10 mins after making that decision, I got not 1 but 2 vials (my first 2), and with my MF gear, never got 1 vial, so yeah, MF seems overrated. MF seems to do ok with the Orr events or crafting material farming. Yesterday in the lvl 10 daily fractal, I got 5 rares and wasn’t wearing any MF, so yeah, its overrated for dungeons IMO.
Prove by numbers in stats, damage output, damage mitigation, etc.
Are you really serious here? Like….really? Your power, toughness, precision, and vitality are 1/3 lower than everyone elses….and you think you need proof that that will affect your damage output and survivability?
Sorry, but you’re simply playing devil’s advocate here. You know the truth as well as any of us. You’re just pretending to feign ignorance because you don’t have a dog in this fight.
You don’t need to crash a car to know that if there’s no brakes you’re not going to be able to stop.
There are so many ways to implement magic find in creative ways its not even funny. I can provide you a list so long you’d be able to wrap in around Arenanet’s offices 13 times.
Magic find on gear is redundant, detrimental and completely nonsensical.
There are so many ways to implement magic find in creative ways its not even funny. I can provide you a list so long you’d be able to wrap in around Arenanet’s offices 13 times.
Magic find on gear is redundant, detrimental and completely nonsensical.
MF food already exists. That’s enough source of MF.
In this situation, the MF user is losing 34% increased damage on critical hits. I repeat: 34%. And what is gained from it? A personal ability to gain more loot.
Regardless of what type of gear you are wearing, one of 3 stats is removed ENTIRELY from the gear in the place of magic find. That is a significant loss, no matter how you look at it.
I suppose, if magic find gear is here to stay, then an inspect option really would be best. :-\ At least then groups can know what they are getting into.
There are so many ways to implement magic find in creative ways its not even funny. I can provide you a list so long you’d be able to wrap in around Arenanet’s offices 13 times.
Magic find on gear is redundant, detrimental and completely nonsensical.
MF food already exists. That’s enough source of MF.
I personally even take issue with that. You can buy omnomberry pies or something else damage boosting and benefit the party even more, but instead you choose something like MF food for no perceivable benefit.
As I’ve said before which a lot of you are clearly choosing to ignore. People can not go with travelers gear but berserkers/knights/etc and not sacrifice that third stat for 18% MF.
How much damage is not mitigated with a loss of 100 toughness? How much damage is lost with a loss of 100 precision? How much damage is lost with a loss of 100 power?
You’re assuming that everyone does an all or nothing with MF.
As I’ve said before which a lot of you are clearly choosing to ignore. People can not go with travelers gear but berserkers/knights/etc and not sacrifice that third stat for 18% MF.
How much damage is not mitigated with a loss of 100 toughness? How much damage is lost with a loss of 100 precision? How much damage is lost with a loss of 100 power?
You’re assuming that everyone does an all or nothing with MF.
i don’t know if serious or trolling.
in case youre not trolling
you lose (67+45+101+34+34+34) + (14×6 [if you orb yourself with emerald) + ((67+15) * 2) + (90+15) + ((56+15) * 2) Toughness if you decide to wear full Explorer than Full Knights, when if you compute is a lot i think.
As I’ve said before which a lot of you are clearly choosing to ignore. People can not go with travelers gear but berserkers/knights/etc and not sacrifice that third stat for 18% MF.
How much damage is not mitigated with a loss of 100 toughness? How much damage is lost with a loss of 100 precision? How much damage is lost with a loss of 100 power?
You’re assuming that everyone does an all or nothing with MF.
I’ve yet to meet a MF stacker who DIDN’T go all or nothing. I’m guessing you don’t run more than one or two pieces of gear that don’t have MF.
We’re also not talking “100” of a particular stat here. We’re talking a net ~1000 total loss of stat points by stacking that crap. It’s not like the big 6 gear pieces are the main source of stats….
There are so many ways to implement magic find in creative ways its not even funny. I can provide you a list so long you’d be able to wrap in around Arenanet’s offices 13 times.
Magic find on gear is redundant, detrimental and completely nonsensical.
MF food already exists. That’s enough source of MF.
I personally even take issue with that. You can buy omnomberry pies or something else damage boosting and benefit the party even more, but instead you choose something like MF food for no perceivable benefit.
But…I don’t get TOO hung up on that one.
yeah, you’re spot on on that. i for one use foods that benefit the party more. i’m just giving the magic find crowd a better option of getting MF, not investing all their kitten on fully MFing themselves.
Prove by numbers in stats, damage output, damage mitigation, etc.
Oh, I thought you were supporting MF, I didn’t realize that you were simply unfamiliar with it in the game—sorry.
Maybe someone will take the time to do a side-by-side but you could do this yourself. As I mentioned just google berserker and traveler weapons and armor. Those pieces alone will demonstrate the difference.
LoL QQing about a little MF. Its not like a few extra minute to clear a dungeon is gonna make any different. Feel free to use mf gear as well if u think they’re selfish.
LoL QQing about a little MF. Its not like a few extra minute to clear a dungeon is gonna make any different. Feel free to use mf gear as well if u think they’re selfish.
I wonder how much money has been lost in repairs for groups because people can’t pull their own weight and party wipes happen. I also wonder if all the extra deaths (which MF stackers would never actually ADMIT to) and their related repairs makes MF worth it? I’m guessing that’s a hearty “no.”
LoL a full run is more than enough to cover for ur few silver to repair.
Yeah, a full run, sure. I’m talking about if the MF itself provides the user with enough extra income to cover the increased gear damage and/or the gear damage of the party members. (if they were running regular gear instead of crap)
This seems to have been written by somebody who is anti-MF and probably had an MF leech in the party.
I have MF gear and I have PVT gear. I do more damage on with my MF armor than I do my PVT armor. As long as I don’t go down then I keep MF armor on.
I don’t agree with MF. I feel like it’s a crappy system and anet should get rid of it and just up ALL drops overall. However, I don’t think people should get mad at other people for using MF. This game is more about coordination and party synergy than one person having 300 more power.
Absolutely agree, I think magic find is broken! and it would be alot nicer to increase the drop rate of EVERYTHING by a reasonable overall amount.
This seems to have been written by somebody who is anti-MF and probably had an MF leech in the party.
I have MF gear and I have PVT gear. I do more damage on with my MF armor than I do my PVT armor. As long as I don’t go down then I keep MF armor on.
I don’t agree with MF. I feel like it’s a crappy system and anet should get rid of it and just up ALL drops overall. However, I don’t think people should get mad at other people for using MF. This game is more about coordination and party synergy than one person having 300 more power.
Absolutely agree, I think magic find is broken! and it would be alot nicer to increase the drop rate of EVERYTHING by a reasonable overall amount.
Meh, I don’t even think they need to increase the droprate. You can roll a new toon, get them to 80, and have them in full exotic gear in 2-3 weeks from scratch, if you know what to do. Heck, you could do it in a DAY if you wanted to spend $50 on gems to convert to gold. Craft to 80, buy all the gear you need/want. :-P
The only thing that seems to need a bit of a boost is the precursor drop rate. Either that or precursors need to have predictable paths to attainment.
you can also blame berserker’s gear for not having good survivability… i had runs in dungeon with people who do high damage once in a while when they are not too busy being downed because they don’t have toughness or vitality…
i sometimes wear my carrion exotic armor with superior runes of traveler in it and i do damage and don’t die because i have an high amount of health, and i don’t want to be blamed because i don’t die.
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As I’ve said before which a lot of you are clearly choosing to ignore. People can not go with travelers gear but berserkers/knights/etc and not sacrifice that third stat for 18% MF.
How much damage is not mitigated with a loss of 100 toughness? How much damage is lost with a loss of 100 precision? How much damage is lost with a loss of 100 power?
You’re assuming that everyone does an all or nothing with MF.
I’ve yet to meet a MF stacker who DIDN’T go all or nothing. I’m guessing you don’t run more than one or two pieces of gear that don’t have MF.
We’re also not talking “100” of a particular stat here. We’re talking a net ~1000 total loss of stat points by stacking that crap. It’s not like the big 6 gear pieces are the main source of stats….
It was an example. I guess from now on I will have to spell out everything. Not directed at you but just in general.
you can also blame berserker’s gear for not having good survivability… i had runs in dungeon with people who do high damage once in a while when they are not too busy being downed because they don’t have toughness or vitality…
i sometimes wear my carrion exotic armor with superior runes of traveler in it and i do damage and don’t die because i have an high amount of health, and i don’t want to be blamed because i don’t die.
zerker gear isn’t that bad if you know how to dodge and bring traits/utilities that help you survive
you can also blame berserker’s gear for not having good survivability… i had runs in dungeon with people who do high damage once in a while when they are not too busy being downed because they don’t have toughness or vitality…
i sometimes wear my carrion exotic armor with superior runes of traveler in it and i do damage and don’t die because i have an high amount of health, and i don’t want to be blamed because i don’t die.
zerker gear isn’t that bad if you know how to dodge and bring traits/utilities that help you survive
Also, High DPS is one of the best ways to avoid dying. The faster you can burn the mobs, the less chance they kill you. The quicker the fight, the higher the survivability.
