Guild Wars 2

This was posted on reddit by an actual magic find user who disagrees with the system, hopefully this reaches the game designers and finally makes them change their philosophy at least regarding MF gear in dungeons.

Here’s the post.

I am a magic find leech. I don’t expect this post will be very popular, but I just want the issue to be brought to light. Being a magic find leech means that I wear full magic find gear ( with pirate runes, opal jewelry, the works) in dungeons, specifically I run a lot of Fractals of the Mists, even at high fractal levels. I’m a leech because I do significantly less damage when I run my magic find gear compared with my non-MF normal exotic gear, so I slow down the run for everyone else, meaning less money per hour for them, but more money per hour for me. My MF gear isn’t even all exotic (some of the pieces are even green, since they give the same amount of magic find).

I’m not the only one. There are others like me, although you’d never know unless they’re blatant enough to run Sigil of Luck. I at least have the tact to run a different sigil, unless I see someone else running SoL, in which case I feel justified switching to my SoL weapon. There are no damage or healing or tanking meters in this game, and there’s no way to inspect, so with transmutating a magic find leech is identical to a respectable player.

Why do I leech? Because even though I slow down the dungeon run by wearing MF gear, I get much better drops. So let’s say I get loot 15% slower, but the loot is 60% better, well overall that’s a win for me, even if it’s a lose for the rest of my party.

This is exactly the set-up of the prisoners dilemma. I don’t know what thought-process led the designers to create a game where leeching is the dominant strategy, but I imagine there wasn’t much thinking involved at all when the designers created the loot system.

I think the system is stupid, but until it’s fixed I will keep on leeching. Why should I forgo better loot when there could be other people in the party who are leeching and I wouldn’t even know? It makes me a bad person, yes, and I’ll probably get downvoted for speaking the truth, but why does the game even allow people to be leeches? Much less ENCOURAGE them to leech? Even diablo III at least averages the MF stat for your party. Magic Find is one of the many aspects of the game where it seems that Anet didn’t bother learning from history, or they would have discovered what a horrible idea the magic find stat is.

Given that he brings up the prisoners dilemma (a questionable structure outside of a paranoid baseline) i suspect the whole thing is rigged based on “neoclassical” economic thinking. Do ANet have an economist on staff to manage and structure the in-game economy?

This is very interesting. I am about to put my MF set together, and was already wondering when I should or should not wear it. I definitely intend to wear it as I work on world completion, and when I farm Cursed Shore.

What’s the MF etiquette when grouped for dungeons or Fractals? Can I wear some pieces, like a mixed set? Half normal gear, half MF? What about food. If I’m not supposed to wear MF gear for the dungeon, can I still eat a Peach Tart (26%MF) while doing the dungeon?

I know people’s opinions will differ, I’m just testing the waters with this question, before I mistakenly turn into a leecher.

digiowl.9620:

Given that he brings up the prisoners dilemma (a questionable structure outside of a paranoid baseline) i suspect the whole thing is rigged based on “neoclassical” economic thinking. Do ANet have an economist on staff to manage and structure the in-game economy?

Yes, John Smith is the Anet “resident economist”: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/john-smith-on-the-guild-wars-2-virtual-economy/

Rainu.6871:

digiowl.9620:

Given that he brings up the prisoners dilemma (a questionable structure outside of a paranoid baseline) i suspect the whole thing is rigged based on “neoclassical” economic thinking. Do ANet have an economist on staff to manage and structure the in-game economy?

Yes, John Smith is the Anet “resident economist”: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/john-smith-on-the-guild-wars-2-virtual-economy/

Am i the only one that thinks they are just trolling us with a generic name when in reality they don’t have an economist on staff?

The “issue” of MF has been brought up a thousand times so far, especially on the Suggestions forum. Unfortunately all we got from Anet was NEW MF gear (with Wintersday) Halloween items also had MF in them, so it’s pretty obvious that Anet wants us to wear all Magic Find armor, it’s the next step after Exotic. Even Ascended gear has +MF in it (why shouldn’t it)

Make MF partywide and you’ll not leech anymore.

This is a great post to discussion argumentation, aka, how to better put together posts that are persuasive.

First up, 15% and 60% are completely pulled out of the kitten. Unless you have hard numbers, avoid numbers at all. If you want hard numbers in your magic find, look at comparable pieces and do that math. The difference between Explorer’s and Berserker’s is trading crit damage for magic find and small reduction in power on some pieces. There is a definite answer to how much it affects a player’s DPS and income, and the answer isn’t 15% and 60%.

Which brings up the second big problem in the post. The author is comparing exotic gear to green gear. This means any comparison between magic find and not magic find is going to be watered down by the addition of other variables. How much worse are the overall stats of the author’s magic find gear versus his exotic gear?

Bringing up Sigil of Luck actually works against his argument. Like all charge building sigils, if you can make effective use of SoL, that means you aren’t getting faceplanted regularly. I’d be perfectly happy with any party member that is on their feet fighting throughout the dungeon as opposed to players who are needing constant rezzing. And if the price that party member wants to ‘charge’ for their skill is a bump in their income, I think they’re earning it.

The prisoner’s dilemma is a fun toy for analyzing that aspect of game theory. And right now, the majority people reading this have no idea what I’m really talking about including a fair number who think they do. This is the problem with bringing up jargon-like terms. Prisoner’s dilemma is a very specific thing with very specific conditions. It’s actually somewhat appropriate here except that the author misuses it. Oh, and prisoner’s dilemma doesn’t always apply to reality as humans have a strong tendency towards cooperation which is why things like the tragedy of the commons don’t always come to pass even in situations where the prisoner’s dilemma indicates it should.

The last, and perhaps most important argument problem that the original author runs into. He’s assuming the goal of all players is efficiency. As soon as you start assuming things about your audience without evidence to support those assumptions, you off kitten knows where in terms of the effectiveness of your communication. Now, there are certainly some players who read the original post and agreed with the conclusion the author wanted them to make because they do place a high value on efficiency. The problem is that we’re talking about a game, and for a whole lot more players, the goal isn’t efficiency, it’s fun. In fact, quite a few players are actively seeking to avoid maximizing efficiency since that’s too much like work which escapist activities like gaming serve as a distraction from.

This brings me to my only point on the topic at hand rather than argumentation. There is no way to ‘win’ this argument. Efficiency oriented players already agree with everything the author said and don’t need to be persuaded. Fun oriented players don’t really care at all what gear other players are wearing. You can’t bring those two groups of players to a consensus without changing the goals of the players. Since I’m firmly in the ‘games are fun’ category, as long as I can complete whatever it is I’m doing, I don’t care if it takes me a few minutes longer than someone else.

Mura.8673:

This is very interesting. I am about to put my MF set together, and was already wondering when I should or should not wear it. I definitely intend to wear it as I work on world completion, and when I farm Cursed Shore.

What’s the MF etiquette when grouped for dungeons or Fractals? Can I wear some pieces, like a mixed set? Half normal gear, half MF? What about food. If I’m not supposed to wear MF gear for the dungeon, can I still eat a Peach Tart (26%MF) while doing the dungeon?

I know people’s opinions will differ, I’m just testing the waters with this question, before I mistakenly turn into a leecher.

Well the more MF you wear the more you’ll affect your group so it’s up to you and how good the group is, I’m totally against MF gear, I tried leeching but just couldn’t bring myself to it knowing how much I could contribute with my actual set.

I’d probably kick people with MF gear that die a lot(easiest way to know they have some) or if they have sigil of luck I’d probably kick right away as soon as I find out and find another, MF food itself is fine since plenty of pugs don’t even use food for stat boost however this will put an eye on you having possible MF gear.

This is of course speaking about dungeons, Don’t really care what people wear any other place.

Xavori.3768:

First up, 15% and 60% are completely pulled out of the kitten. Unless you have hard numbers, avoid numbers at all. If you want hard numbers in your magic find, look at comparable pieces and do that math. The difference between Explorer’s and Berserker’s is trading crit damage for magic find and small reduction in power on some pieces. There is a definite answer to how much it affects a player’s DPS and income, and the answer isn’t 15% and 60%.

Numbers from a post I made some time ago on another thread about MF:

Exotic MF is WORSE than Masterwork non-MF so you are indeed holding the group back when you are using MF gear
Masterwork armor: 623 stat boosts
Masterwork jewelry: 739 stat boosts
Total: 1362
Exotic MF armor: 448 stat boosts
Exotic MF jewelry: 510 stat boosts
Total: 958 stat boosts
Now take into account that the vast majority of players is using Rare armor and Green jewelry and you can easily see the problem. We are talking about 404 more stat points on the MASTERWORK set compared to an MF set, an EXOTIC set is:
Exotic armor: 763 stat boosts
Exotic jewelry: 868 stat boosts
Total: 1631
673 more stat points! It’s ridiculous amount no matter how you see it and it DOES affect a build. Also, I’m not adding Runes and THEIR abilities compared to the useless %MF that MF Runes give.

I think that those 404 more points that Masterwork gear has over Exotic MF are enough to make a difference in both damage and survivability, while the 673 point difference with Exotic is even higher and if the player is using green or rare MF the difference is ridiculous… I didn’t add the Weapon in my calculations above, but a weapon adds 179 more points (Magic Find on weapons is “Major” stat)

I can’t “test” how much more income someone makes while using MF gear, I’ll let some other forumer to do that.

I always thought all this magic Find is shady business and it should be remvoed from the game. Thats just my opinion though.

and it’s very easy in a dungeon to notice who it is that’s leeching. Which is when I dropout and LFG.

As to the comparisson between Explorer’s and Berserker’s gear (Weapons included this time):

Explorer’s:
Power: 698 = 1614 Total (916 is base)
Precision: 698 = ~33% crit chance

Berserker’s:
Power: 1003 (30% more power) = 1919 Total (~16% higher power)
Precision: 698 = ~33% crit chance
Crit Damage: 62% = 212% crit damage

Let’s take a dagger for the calculation with an average weapon damage of 952. Also let’s attack a target with 2600 armor (the armor that tooltips compare damage against). Also, let’s take a skill with 1.0 coefficient for easier calculations.

Damage: Damage done = (weapon damage) * Power * (skill-specific coefficient) / (target’s Armor)

Damage with MF = 952*1614*1/2600=590 damage
Damage with Berserker = 952*1919*1/2600=702 damage

Now both have 33% chance of being critical so our total average damage is:
(<Non-critical*2>+<critical>) / 3

MF Critical: 590*150%=885
Berserker Critical: 702*212%=1488

Total Average damage with MF: (590*2+885)/3=688,3 dps
Total Average damage with Berserker: (702*2+1488)/3=984 dps

So the OP is incorrent it’s not 15% difference in damage but the damage with MF is 69,9% of Berserker damage… a tiny bit higher than 2/3

I hope we ALL agree that doing 2/3 of the damage of another “similar” set with the same survivability is a HUGE differnce.

No sigils, traits or runes were taken into account above, but the difference is quite stunning, 688.3 compared to 984 damage with the exact same defensive capabilities. Sigils and Runes would make this a lot harder for poor MF gear…

Xavori.3768:

This is a great post to discussion argumentation, aka, how to better put together posts that are persuasive.

First up, 15% and 60% are completely pulled out of the kitten. Unless you have hard numbers, avoid numbers at all. If you want hard numbers in your magic find, look at comparable pieces and do that math. The difference between Explorer’s and Berserker’s is trading crit damage for magic find and small reduction in power on some pieces. There is a definite answer to how much it affects a player’s DPS and income, and the answer isn’t 15% and 60%.

Which brings up the second big problem in the post. The author is comparing exotic gear to green gear. This means any comparison between magic find and not magic find is going to be watered down by the addition of other variables. How much worse are the overall stats of the author’s magic find gear versus his exotic gear?

Bringing up Sigil of Luck actually works against his argument. Like all charge building sigils, if you can make effective use of SoL, that means you aren’t getting faceplanted regularly. I’d be perfectly happy with any party member that is on their feet fighting throughout the dungeon as opposed to players who are needing constant rezzing. And if the price that party member wants to ‘charge’ for their skill is a bump in their income, I think they’re earning it.

The prisoner’s dilemma is a fun toy for analyzing that aspect of game theory. And right now, the majority people reading this have no idea what I’m really talking about including a fair number who think they do. This is the problem with bringing up jargon-like terms. Prisoner’s dilemma is a very specific thing with very specific conditions. It’s actually somewhat appropriate here except that the author misuses it. Oh, and prisoner’s dilemma doesn’t always apply to reality as humans have a strong tendency towards cooperation which is why things like the tragedy of the commons don’t always come to pass even in situations where the prisoner’s dilemma indicates it should.

The last, and perhaps most important argument problem that the original author runs into. He’s assuming the goal of all players is efficiency. As soon as you start assuming things about your audience without evidence to support those assumptions, you off kitten knows where in terms of the effectiveness of your communication. Now, there are certainly some players who read the original post and agreed with the conclusion the author wanted them to make because they do place a high value on efficiency. The problem is that we’re talking about a game, and for a whole lot more players, the goal isn’t efficiency, it’s fun. In fact, quite a few players are actively seeking to avoid maximizing efficiency since that’s too much like work which escapist activities like gaming serve as a distraction from.

This brings me to my only point on the topic at hand rather than argumentation. There is no way to ‘win’ this argument. Efficiency oriented players already agree with everything the author said and don’t need to be persuaded. Fun oriented players don’t really care at all what gear other players are wearing. You can’t bring those two groups of players to a consensus without changing the goals of the players. Since I’m firmly in the ‘games are fun’ category, as long as I can complete whatever it is I’m doing, I don’t care if it takes me a few minutes longer than someone else.

I completely agree, i don’t believe the poster either because I’ve learned not to trust the words he’s using. He wants to say that he’s one of those people yet downs his own practice. that’s not typical of anything other then a reverse psych manipulation post.

I’m not a dungeoneer. I would have to say that people running these dungeons were the reason most of us came to this title. Let me explain. Originally this title was supposed to be all open world metas added every month and dungeons would be an afterthought. If people wanted to dungeon crawl they could but no importance was placed on them. Then Nov 16th came along and suddenly the entire game was shifted. We kept seeing requests for things like dpsmeters, and gearscore, and cross server lfg. The game was never the same again and many people just up and left because they knew what we’ve all experienced.

That people who make up the majority of the dungeoneer crowd tend to be the time till complete crowd. smh. not worth it imo.

maddoctor.2738:

So the OP is incorrent it’s not 15% difference in damage but the damage with MF is 69,9% of Berserker damage… a tiny bit higher than 2/3

I hope we ALL agree that doing 2/3 of the damage of another “similar” set with the same survivability is a HUGE differnce.

Which is why I said that it’s easily noticeable and why I vote/kick that person or leave immediately upon making it clear I wont carry someone else sporting MF

Seems to me this is easy for a concerned player base to police this kind of behaviour out of the game.

as i ve said many times sure you have less stats but you guys are forgetting traits play a big role if the player has a power/crit%/crit damage% build he/she will still deal some decent damage. another thing is not everything is about dealt damage support is vital in dungeons sometimes. MF does lower stats but even with lvl 80 exotic gear players still suck so it is not a matter of player wearing MF gear or not it is a matter of PLAYER’s skill and aid in dungeons or whatever. hell im an engineer and im the one who ends up tanking hordes at melee range that is a good example i believe.

good numbers, maddoctor. I had just put together a comparison between my mf and pvp set (all exotics) and they show a similar difference (though my pvp isn’t berserkers). It’s totally relevant to this, so I’ll copy/paste it here (these are the totaled values in the hero panel):

well, here’s the comparison between my mf and pvp gear. you’ll notice my mf isn’t complete yet, and I do leave a tad of mf on my pvp. sometimes it’s too much sacrifice for that last 5%, and too easy to throw in 10% because the rest of it is nice. This is not including omnomnberry bar or any banner boosts, but does include maxed sigil of luck on mf gear.

_ ___________mf___________pvp________pvp-mf_________(pvp/mf-1)*100%
Power_______1909_________2097________188____________9.85
Weapon_dmg_1,080________1,080________0______________0
Cond_dmg____75__________135_________60_____________80
Precision_____1,742________1,822_________80____________4.59
Toughness____1,133________1,404________271____________23.9
Vitality_______1,127_______1,119_________-8_____________-0.7
Attack_______2,989________3,177________188____________6.29
Critical_%_____43_________47___________4______________9.3
Critical_dmg___33_________78___________45_____________24.59
Average_Attack_4,055______5,088_________1,033___________25.47
Armor________2,197______2,468_________271____________12.3
Defense_______1,064______1,064__________0_____________0
Health________17,192_____17,112_________-80___________-0.47
Healing________25________85___________60____________240
mf___________132________17___________-115__________-49.57
_____________luck sigil____fire sigil
_____________mf runes____divinity rune
for the Average attack I used this formula: (1-Crit%/100) * Attack + (Crit%/100) * Attack * (1.5 + Crit dmg)

Conclusions I see: mf gear provides 98.2% more “items” (better, maybe? iuno, the mechanics are besides the point), while requiring 25.47% more attacks to kill something, and can take only 80.69% as many hits.
As you can tell, my mf is pure glass cannon, while my pvp focuses on adding toughness and more dmg.
From these numbers, I would expect mf to find 232 “items” from killing 100 grubs in the same time as my pvp would find 147 “items” from killing 126 grubs.
sigil of fire would also make an impact, but it depends on mob density, and I have no idea how much damage it deals. I doubt it makes up that difference, though.

So, as far as taking a hit on how well I kill things and a leach on a group: mf absolutely impacts your usefulness. Is it worth it? yes.
Final advice: pvp gear when others depend on you, mf gear in your own time. mix it up if you can’t afford both.

Now, as far as ethics go and how I feel playing with a mf user: I wouldn’t care so long as they didn’t drag the team down. dying drags the team down far more than 33% less effect. If someone dies, that’s 40% of the team that is useless. Not to mention the likelihood of a second one dying when trying to rez. Skill is a major factor here. I would much rather a skillful mf user than high damage noob that doesn’t know what dodge is. I’ve run dungeons with people that later said they used full mf, and those were some of the quickest runs I’ve done. I’ve also been in dungeons with people using non-mf gear that we had to give up the dungeon because they kept dying.

Masaki.2153:

maddoctor.2738:

So the OP is incorrent it’s not 15% difference in damage but the damage with MF is 69,9% of Berserker damage… a tiny bit higher than 2/3

I hope we ALL agree that doing 2/3 of the damage of another “similar” set with the same survivability is a HUGE differnce.

Which is why I said that it’s easily noticeable and why I vote/kick that person or leave immediately upon making it clear I wont carry someone else sporting MF

Seems to me this is easy for a concerned player base to police this kind of behaviour out of the game.

It’s still un-fun for many people to watch others in party like a hawk. Majority of the players will not do this. So even if the leech got kicked from your party, he could just LFG for a few more minutes and get another one.

Rezzet.3614:

as i ve said many times sure you have less stats but you guys are forgetting traits play a big role if the player has a power/crit%/crit damage% build he/she will still deal some decent damage. another thing is not everything is about dealt damage support is vital in dungeons sometimes. MF does lower stats but even with lvl 80 exotic gear players still suck so it is not a matter of player wearing MF gear or not it is a matter of PLAYER’s skill and aid in dungeons or whatever. hell im an engineer and im the one who ends up tanking hordes at melee range that is a good example i believe.

I can’t believe whenever there is a discussion on magic find we get posts about player skill… Are people just blind? There is a huge difference between someone that uses MF and someone that is a bad player or has subpar gear. The latter doesn’t have a choice, the former has all the choice in the world, that’s the huge difference you are forgetting and it is the most important one for me.

I have no issues partying with a noob, in fact I will party with him and even try to “teach” them. I never run dungeons quickly, I always try to explain everything so if those guys try the dungeon later they can do it on their own… even the skipping. I have no problems partying with people using subpar gear or those who are of lower levels, I’ve done CM with a level 38 and AC with a level 30, both succeeded and I have no issues with that.

The real problem comes from players who intentionaly lower their gear quality. They have all the luxury/money/tokens to buy gear that is useful to everyone in the party and instead they CHOOSE to get selfish gear that offers nothing to the group. That’s the problem, I don’t care if you can pull yourself in a dungeon because you are pro, that’s not the issue or the problem, it’s the fact that you are laughing on my face as you get more loot while doing less.

Player skill > gear is true in this game, but that only means that bad players shouldn’t even use MF gear. Have you ever considered just to think about same skill level players? I’m sick of reading bragging posts “I was in full MF and didn’t die while the rest of the group with full defensive gear died” SO WHAT? Maybe you were just pew pewing from afar and never got aggro or entered combat… maybe your dps was so pitiful that all the mobs ignored you, ever thought of that genious? How about comparing equally skilled players and see what difference MF does there. In that case numbers don’t lie.

You are saying that traits are playing an important role… seen by the numbers alone a traitless nonMF person has more stats than someone with MF Exotic Gear… it’s because traits are far more important right?

i used to play necro, and with crappy healing, i learned to stay alive without ever healing basically. i use heal to remove conditions, not for healing sake. now i’ve made a new lvl80 mesmer, and using a full MF set and can still do dungeons fine without dying. however, i do admit my dmg is pretty much insignificant. thing is, in a PUG dungeon party, ppl arent going to notice how much dmg you do, but only how often you die. and since i rarely die, i get away with it. im sure there are other MF users like this. personally, im against MF, or make it average in party, but the way it is, i’ll keep “leeching”.

Mystic.5934:

So, as far as taking a hit on how well I kill things and a leach on a group: mf absolutely impacts your usefulness. Is it worth it? yes.
Final advice: pvp gear when others depend on you, mf gear in your own time. mix it up if you can’t afford both.

True. Problem is there is no way in the game to “enforce” this. Hopefully once we get that long awaited Dungeon patch (with Ascended gear, changes to encounters etc) they’ll add an easy way to see the MF of everyone in the group (to kick as appropriate) but only MF no full inspections

Rezzet.3614:

as i ve said many times sure you have less stats but you guys are forgetting traits play a big role if the player has a power/crit%/crit damage% build he/she will still deal some decent damage.

Best i can tell, the numbers you get out of a full armor set outstrip the points you can get out of traits.

Good way to get another point out about how much some people hate MF. I don’t believe a word of it, as it’s a little too obvious.

How about everyone use MF so everyone gets better drops at the cost of a slightly slower dungeon run? It solves all the issues people are complaining about.

So, everyone stack your MF and get your loot!

Rustypipes.6238:

Good way to get another point out about how much some people hate MF.

And there are good reasons for it.

nofo.8469:

Am i the only one that thinks they are just trolling us with a generic name when in reality they don’t have an economist on staff?

1:44 – may be a common name, nothing wrong with that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clyvEMEJE50

One thing y’all are forgetting in this discussion:

A good level 80 player, even in full MF gear, is overkill versus the difficulty of most dungeons and fractals till about level 20 or so. I’m pretty sure 5 good players in full MF gear would tear through any dungeon in the game no problem, and do so faster than 5 mediocre players in the perfect gear for their build.

Then, of course, we get back to fun. If you truly care about efficiency, you should avoid playing with players running MF, and when you’re calling out for groups or members, make sure to announce that you don’t want MF-geared players in your group. That way, you and the other group members are of a like mind and hence, should have more fun.

Conversely, if like me, you don’t care as long as you actually finish the dungeon, then go ahead and run with whoever and whatever. Since there is only one run per day at full reward anyway, I’m totally okay with that.

@maddoctor,
You’re not done with the numbers, just the easy part. You then have to translate that back into damage output and damage resistance. Sure, those big numbers look like they make a huge difference, but once you factor in the actual damage formulas, not so much, and nowhere near as big a hit as getting downed in a fight which reduces your DPS to zero as well as that of anyone who stops to rez you.

Also, it’s pretty easy to ‘fix’ most of the DPS loss by building in some condition damage which ignores mob armor. That’s why my bleed-build warrior runs MF gear, but my direct damage elementalist does not. My necro could run MF given the condition spam they have available, but she’s a wells/marks bunker, and you can’t really do bunker using MF gear.

Xavori.3768:

One thing y’all are forgetting in this discussion:

A good level 80 player, even in full MF gear, is overkill versus the difficulty of most dungeons and fractals till about level 20 or so. I’m pretty sure 5 good players in full MF gear would tear through any dungeon in the game no problem, and do so faster than 5 mediocre players in the perfect gear for their build.

I think I anwsered this one already… those same 5 good players without full MF would tear through that same dungeon faster, that’s no point.

Then, of course, we get back to fun. If you truly care about efficiency, you should avoid playing with players running MF, and when you’re calling out for groups or members, make sure to announce that you don’t want MF-geared players in your group. That way, you and the other group members are of a like mind and hence, should have more fun.

And then you get people with full MF that “ping” their non-MF to get aboard the group. Transmuting makes liars very happy.

Conversely, if like me, you don’t care as long as you actually finish the dungeon, then go ahead and run with whoever and whatever. Since there is only one run per day at full reward anyway, I’m totally okay with that.

That used to be true before the advent of Ascended gear and the impossible grind they require, I could care less about cosmetics and legendaries and I was of the belief “whatever gear he uses or whatever drops he is having, it doesn’t affect me” since I could get the gear anyway, now it’s completely different, those 250 tier 6 mats don’t come so easily, therefore “pushing” is more annoying now. Perhaps it will change again once they give us other non-super grind ways of gettign gear.

@maddoctor,
You’re not done with the numbers, just the easy part. You then have to translate that back into damage output and damage resistance. Sure, those big numbers look like they make a huge difference, but once you factor in the actual damage formulas, not so much, and nowhere near as big a hit as getting downed in a fight which reduces your DPS to zero as well as that of anyone who stops to rez you.

They are the actual damage formulas if you didn’t notice… Also I used a Berserker set which has the same stats as Explorer’s + SOME MORE, the argument about getting downed is invalid… same skill players have the exact same probability of getting downed, both sets don’t give tough/vitality.

Also, it’s pretty easy to ‘fix’ most of the DPS loss by building in some condition damage which ignores mob armor. That’s why my bleed-build warrior runs MF gear, but my direct damage elementalist does not. My necro could run MF given the condition spam they have available, but she’s a wells/marks bunker, and you can’t really do bunker using MF gear.

Wrong again. Last I checked there was a stat called Condition Damage that increases your damage with conditions, since I’ve done those calculations in the past too (see attachment) With 850 Condition Damage you DOUBLE your condition damage.

Let’s do the math again:

Explorer’s:
Power: 698
Precision: 698

Rampager:
Power: 698
Precision: 1003
Condition Damage: 698

With 698 more condition damage (instead of MF) your bleeding is dealing 82% more damage… at 25 stacks that 82% more damage is very significant so your Warrior would’ve been dealing 82% more damage than he is using now if he was wearring Rampager instead of Explorer (also 14% more crit chance)

Do you know how many necros with wells/marks I’ve seen with MF sigil and gear in Fractals? Or Staff Elementalists? too many to count so you might be “thinking” of your build but the majority isn’t.

Some players actually rely on skill than gear im not the most skilled but being a glass cannon engi i still am able to tank groups at times and cripple/bleed/knock/poison/chill/burn the hell out of them while setting up 3 healing fields so my allies swarm them afterwards easily.

maddoctor.2738:

Xavori.3768:

One thing y’all are forgetting in this discussion:

A good level 80 player, even in full MF gear, is overkill versus the difficulty of most dungeons and fractals till about level 20 or so. I’m pretty sure 5 good players in full MF gear would tear through any dungeon in the game no problem, and do so faster than 5 mediocre players in the perfect gear for their build.

I think I anwsered this one already… those same 5 good players without full MF would tear through that same dungeon faster, that’s no point.

Then, of course, we get back to fun. If you truly care about efficiency, you should avoid playing with players running MF, and when you’re calling out for groups or members, make sure to announce that you don’t want MF-geared players in your group. That way, you and the other group members are of a like mind and hence, should have more fun.

And then you get people with full MF that “ping” their non-MF to get aboard the group. Transmuting makes liars very happy.

Conversely, if like me, you don’t care as long as you actually finish the dungeon, then go ahead and run with whoever and whatever. Since there is only one run per day at full reward anyway, I’m totally okay with that.

That used to be true before the advent of Ascended gear and the impossible grind they require, I could care less about cosmetics and legendaries and I was of the belief “whatever gear he uses or whatever drops he is having, it doesn’t affect me” since I could get the gear anyway, now it’s completely different, those 250 tier 6 mats don’t come so easily, therefore “pushing” is more annoying now. Perhaps it will change again once they give us other non-super grind ways of gettign gear.

@maddoctor,
You’re not done with the numbers, just the easy part. You then have to translate that back into damage output and damage resistance. Sure, those big numbers look like they make a huge difference, but once you factor in the actual damage formulas, not so much, and nowhere near as big a hit as getting downed in a fight which reduces your DPS to zero as well as that of anyone who stops to rez you.

They are the actual damage formulas if you didn’t notice… Also I used a Berserker set which has the same stats as Explorer’s + SOME MORE, the argument about getting downed is invalid… same skill players have the exact same probability of getting downed, both sets don’t give tough/vitality.

Also, it’s pretty easy to ‘fix’ most of the DPS loss by building in some condition damage which ignores mob armor. That’s why my bleed-build warrior runs MF gear, but my direct damage elementalist does not. My necro could run MF given the condition spam they have available, but she’s a wells/marks bunker, and you can’t really do bunker using MF gear.

Wrong again. Last I checked there was a stat called Condition Damage that increases your damage with conditions, since I’ve done those calculations in the past too (see attachment) With 850 Condition Damage you DOUBLE your condition damage.

Let’s do the math again:

Explorer’s:
Power: 698
Precision: 698

Rampager:
Power: 698
Precision: 1003
Condition Damage: 698

With 698 more condition damage (instead of MF) your bleeding is dealing 82% more damage… at 25 stacks that 82% more damage is very significant so your Warrior would’ve been dealing 82% more damage than he is using now if he was wearring Rampager instead of Explorer (also 14% more crit chance)

Do you know how many necros with wells/marks I’ve seen with MF sigil and gear in Fractals? Or Staff Elementalists? too many to count so you might be “thinking” of your build but the majority isn’t.

Pst you forgot its the Traveler set wich actually boosts Power and Condition

Rezzet.3614:

Pst you forgot its the Traveler set wich actually boosts Power and Condition

Traveler’s is even worse, it doesn’t add 33% to crit… it adds exactly 0. Rampager adds 44%, at the same level of power. It will increase the bleeding damage but you’ll lose half your direct damage, awesome!

maddoctor.2738:

Rezzet.3614:

Pst you forgot its the Traveler set wich actually boosts Power and Condition

Traveler’s is even worse, it doesn’t add 33% to crit… it adds exactly 0. Rampager adds 44%, at the same level of power. It will increase the bleeding damage but you’ll lose half your direct damage, awesome!

however you cant make an argument about condition damage in 2 diferent sets if you deliberatedly choose a set without condition to compare it with a condition set that made your argument invalid the comparison was about condition not crit rate as it doesnt improve condition damage and theres several factors that increase crit rate wich should help players keep it at 40-50% even with a non precision set.

At Fractal-level >30 you will need all the Stats you can get. Even with 3000 Armor and over 20k health, some Mobs will kill you almost instanstly. If you play in Full-MF-gear and die alot and the group often wipes because of you, they wont invite you again. The Fractal-community is not that big, you will meet the same people again.

besides, to get loot from a mob, you have to do enough damage to tag the mob.

No matter how you put it, you always lose out on a good stat that potentially benefits your survival/damage/group for a selfish stat that only benefits your drops.

Pixelninja.6971:

At Fractal-level >30 you will need all the Stats you can get. Even with 3000 Armor and over 20k health, some Mobs will kill you almost instanstly. If you play in Full-MF-gear and die alot and the group often wipes because of you, they wont invite you again. The Fractal-community is not that big, you will meet the same people again.

besides, to get loot from a mob, you have to do enough damage to tag the mob.

precisely what i meant its not about the MF gear its about Skills and how good you are at dodging supporting your team and dealing damage and clearing objectives even with a fully tanky build you can go down instantly at fractals so its not really a matter of gear its about SKILL if you got a skillless player using MF gear then please by all means kick him about if hes just gonna stand in front of the mobs and not even dodge.

Rezzet.3614:

Pixelninja.6971:

At Fractal-level >30 you will need all the Stats you can get. Even with 3000 Armor and over 20k health, some Mobs will kill you almost instanstly. If you play in Full-MF-gear and die alot and the group often wipes because of you, they wont invite you again. The Fractal-community is not that big, you will meet the same people again.

besides, to get loot from a mob, you have to do enough damage to tag the mob.

precisely what i meant its not about the MF gear its about Skills and how good you are at dodging supporting your team and dealing damage and clearing objectives even with a fully tanky build you can go down instantly at fractals so its not really a matter of gear its about SKILL if you got a skillless player using MF gear then please by all means kick him about if hes just gonna stand in front of the mobs and not even dodge.

I don’t see you are saying the same here. If not the complete opposite (that you shouldn’t play with MF gear at Fractals above 30. Reading previous posts will make you understand what’s the issue, hint: it’s not player skill.

maddoctor.2738:

Rezzet.3614:

Pixelninja.6971:

At Fractal-level >30 you will need all the Stats you can get. Even with 3000 Armor and over 20k health, some Mobs will kill you almost instanstly. If you play in Full-MF-gear and die alot and the group often wipes because of you, they wont invite you again. The Fractal-community is not that big, you will meet the same people again.

besides, to get loot from a mob, you have to do enough damage to tag the mob.

precisely what i meant its not about the MF gear its about Skills and how good you are at dodging supporting your team and dealing damage and clearing objectives even with a fully tanky build you can go down instantly at fractals so its not really a matter of gear its about SKILL if you got a skillless player using MF gear then please by all means kick him about if hes just gonna stand in front of the mobs and not even dodge.

I don’t see you are saying the same here. If not the complete opposite (that you shouldn’t play with MF gear at Fractals above 30. Reading previous posts will make you understand what’s the issue, hint: it’s not player skill.

i ve never made it that high in fractals so i ll have to agree there i dont really think 150% MF is gonna be of any good i think any good gear with superior runes giving 50% MF is pretty good 66% including MF trinkets(without amulet as it gives decent stats usually) and that way you wont sacrifice your armor stats . but then again the higher the fractals the more prepare you got to be. forgot theres food that gives 30-40% MF too

Rezzet.3614:

MF does lower stats but even with lvl 80 exotic gear players still suck so it is not a matter of player wearing MF gear or not it is a matter of PLAYER’s skill and aid in dungeons or whatever

I’d agree here. I dont use MF, but I bet i could put out more DPS with full MF gear than noobie nooberson down the road can in full Exotic gear

FourTwenty.4268:

Rezzet.3614:

MF does lower stats but even with lvl 80 exotic gear players still suck so it is not a matter of player wearing MF gear or not it is a matter of PLAYER’s skill and aid in dungeons or whatever

I’d agree here. I dont use MF, but I bet i could put out more DPS with full MF gear than noobie nooberson down the road can in full Exotic gear

while you’re at it, ill play along

ill take noobie nooberson wearing full appropriate exotics than noobie nooberson on full MF gear.

I’ll participate, I’ll take a good player with full appropriate exotics over a good player with full mf gear.

I wouldn’t mind MF if MF applied to the entire party. I wouldn’t mind if it was left as it was if Anet gave us an inspect feature and allowed us to boot people unethical enough to run MF in a group setting. However, the way it works now is probably my single least favorite thing about the game.

@maddoctor,

Again, most players are overkill versus most dungeons stat wise. And again, it doesn’t matter what stats a player has even in a dungeon like AC if the player isn’t very good and ends up getting knocked down every time the Howling King looks at them funny. They are a much bigger drain on your team than anything I’d ever be. Heck, I’d bet in most PUG’s, my head-to-toe magic find gear warrior puts out more damage than any other member.

That said, I wouldn’t run that warrior in a fractal above 20. My experience is that at that point the loss in stats actually starts to matter in how effective I can play. I also don’t run that warrior in WvW for the same reason.

Ironically, I’m actually in favor of the people who get upset by MF gear being able to know if someone is running with it. I’m a big, big fan of fun, and if they’re of the perception (regardless of the fact that the difference is meaningless in most cases) that MF gear is bad, it’s going to reduce their fun which I’m opposed to.

I do wonder about the people who stress so much over efficiency in a game tho. I mean, I spend lots of hours theorycrafting builds because I see it as a puzzle. I also have a seriously bad altaholicism problem which my theorycrafting feeds into. Based on that experience, I’m way beyond sure that there are ‘perfect’ builds for maximizing damage or defense or whatnot.

So, maddoctor, are you planning on kicking people who aren’t running those perfect builds as well? I’m not being snarky in asking. I’m trying to get a feel for why one aspect of inefficiency, magic find gear, is so upsetting when another, builds, does not seem to be.

I think ANet should only leave MF as a food buff + gemstore item, it’s enough, and balance loot tables accordingly.
What do you guys think?

turning up in MF is basically said player being a selfish kitten. No matter about skill, builds or whatever. Its them basically kitten up the other 4 players backs for their own gain. People like that dont deserve for others to party with em. They could be the most skilled played GW2 has ever known its still total disrespect of their fellow party members.

The solution is rather simple in my opinion. Allow magic find stats to affect the party as a whole(so long as they are in the same map/instance.) This will give benefit to those who are wearing gear that is best for combat as well as possibly encourage community farming on maps.

I’m sure some will disagree but this would be my solution to this issue.

alcopaul.2156:

FourTwenty.4268:

Rezzet.3614:

MF does lower stats but even with lvl 80 exotic gear players still suck so it is not a matter of player wearing MF gear or not it is a matter of PLAYER’s skill and aid in dungeons or whatever

I’d agree here. I dont use MF, but I bet i could put out more DPS with full MF gear than noobie nooberson down the road can in full Exotic gear

while you’re at it, ill play along

ill take noobie nooberson wearing full appropriate exotics than noobie nooberson on full MF gear.

thats not how it works though. do you take a skilled player with an optimized build in full MF or do you take a noob with a gimp build in full exotics?

i promise you the noob wont know the optimal dps rotation nor will he have the reaction time to dodge when needed

noob vs. skill, who do you pick?

One thing seriously bugs me about this topic…do you also consider everybody who runs power/vit/toughness a leecher? Or power/precision/toughness? Or any set that includes toughness/vitality?

If they wanted to copy diablo they could have done it right and make high quality gear have MF on it without affecting other stat’s, MF being a “major” is just silly as hell. It’s way too much of a stat reduction.

Xavori.3768:

So, maddoctor, are you planning on kicking people who aren’t running those perfect builds as well? I’m not being snarky in asking. I’m trying to get a feel for why one aspect of inefficiency, magic find gear, is so upsetting when another, builds, does not seem to be.

Already answered that:

I have no issues partying with a noob, in fact I will party with him and even try to “teach” them. I never run dungeons quickly, I always try to explain everything so if those guys try the dungeon later they can do it on their own… even the skipping. I have no problems partying with people using subpar gear or those who are of lower levels, I’ve done CM with a level 38 and AC with a level 30, both succeeded and I have no issues with that.

I hope the above is enough…

TWMagimay.9057:

One thing seriously bugs me about this topic…do you also consider everybody who runs power/vit/toughness a leecher? Or power/precision/toughness? Or any set that includes toughness/vitality?

Nope he is doing his best to survive and in the end he is actually helping his party. If you’ve played any dungeons you should know that at various points you need to defend npcs/objects or simply survive waves of mobs. Having people with survival and/or support gear is optimal for the group. Unfortunately MF gear doesn’t offer ANY survivability AND it doesn’t compare with damage gear… so it’s inferior in any way imaginable.

TWMagimay.9057:

One thing seriously bugs me about this topic…do you also consider everybody who runs power/vit/toughness a leecher? Or power/precision/toughness? Or any set that includes toughness/vitality?

Except that people running vitality and toughness are far less likely to die, which means they are doing damage because they are standing rather than in a permanent downed state. Further, if they are standing, they are also able to rez, bringing even more to the party. The person in full MF, on the other hand, is like the individual who shows up to a group lunch in a restaurant and “forgets” to bring their wallet. They take, but they contribute nothing.

Do I have an MF set? Sure I do. But, I only wear it while farming easy DE’s like Pen/Shelter, or while running around solo sometimes. If I end up in a dungeon group I immediately replace it with my good gear.

MF should never have been a baseline stat on items, and instead have been part of the crafting system

Example:
Buff food,Small armor patches or blessings which can be temporarily stamped onto armor to give short term buffs, it would certainly do a lot of add something of repeated value to crafting professions, which right now are “craft stuff for legendary weps or gt-o”

placing in full sets of MF was stupid at best, and downright detrimental to the game at it’s core due to it’s effect warranting drop nerfs overall at worst.

I’ve yet to see a decent justification for this lame stat from an A-Net employee in fact, and it’s been complained about for months. What the heck?