Guild Wars 2

Rather fascinating to read up on Prisoner’s Dilemma in another facet of the game. It’s also present else where:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/wuvwuv/Prisoner-s-dilemma/first#post585551

Graill.8596:

The first step to curing yourself is admitting your problem. Good for you. Now sit down in your chair…next person, state your name and why you are here…..

Did you just have a aneurysm? Or did you simply run out of arguments to support your case?

You do not bring skill into the equasion because it is uncertain and instead we go for the common denominator, which is, everyone is average, otherwise the argument turns into semantics. There’s bad MF players and there’s good; whatever the case is, the missing stat makes a difference no matter what.

TWMagimay.9057:

Gasoline.2570:

Whatever the case is;

Every set has 3 stats that help you fight and survive longer, mf does none of those and instead grants 1 person better loot instead of contribution to the rest of the team. This is why MF is a bad mechanic and awards selfish players for being more skilled than the rest.

There, fixed it for you. Now tell me what’s wrong with being rewarded for skill.

@above: True, if you can’t explain your point, there is no reason to keep talking.

Funny, you do not understand what I am saying, but instead of trying to understand it, you simply say NO.

It is not on me to explain the explanation to my previous explanation. If you do not even take half a minute to think about it.

BUTTERBLUME.3217:

Funny, you do not understand what I am saying, but instead of trying to understand it, you simply say NO.

It is not on me to explain the explanation to my previous explanation. If you do not even take half a minute to think about it.

Funny, I admit to not understanding you point but instead of trying to explain it better, you just say NO. I even googled “alternative loss”, because I figured that’s my problem. Google hasn’t heard of that phrase(unless you meant weight loss which I highly doubt).

Btw, just in case, my point is that you shouldn’t judge the gear but the performance. If nobody is lying on the floor all the time, the run is going smooth and fast it shouldn’t matter if 1 or more players have magic find because they are obviously doing it right. The only time you can feel like you are carrying smb or smb is leeching is if they are afk or on the floor half the time. Neither of those is a direct result of mfind gear though.

TWMagimay.9057:

BUTTERBLUME.3217:

Funny, you do not understand what I am saying, but instead of trying to understand it, you simply say NO.

It is not on me to explain the explanation to my previous explanation. If you do not even take half a minute to think about it.

Funny, I admit to not understanding you point but instead of trying to explain it better, you just say NO. I even googled “alternative loss”, because I figured that’s my problem. Google hasn’t heard of that phrase(unless you meant weight loss which I highly doubt).

Btw, just in case, my point is that you shouldn’t judge the gear but the performance. If nobody is lying on the floor all the time, the run is going smooth and fast it shouldn’t matter if 1 or more players have magic find because they are obviously doing it right. The only time you can feel like you are carrying smb or smb is leeching is if they are afk or on the floor half the time. Neither of those is a direct result of mfind gear though.

‘Alternative loss’ was not meant to be googled, that’s why I tried to explain it afterwards.
You can take MF gear and not get downed, but the alternative would be, taking berserker gear, not get downed, but deal more damage.

Taking MF over berserker makes you lose potential damage.

As I was saying before, I am not the kind of guy who does not run with people because they take MF, have green, white,yellow or blue gear, but there is no denial, that if you take MF gear, because you claim to be skilled enough to not die, you could take berserker gear instead, and perform better.

Comparing players has nothing to do with the problem of MF. The only thing you have to compare is different gear on your own character.

Edit: Thanks for posting that link, should make my example a little more understandable.

Since we’re already including some terminology from economics here, you can substitute ‘alternative loss’ with ‘opportunity cost (aka ’alternative cost’): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost.
It’s what you’re losing out on if you take MF gear.

BUTTERBLUME.3217:

Comparing players has nothing to do with the problem of MF. The only thing you have to compare is different gear on your own character.

Ermmm, no. Leeching is directly related to other players. Being a leecher doesn’t mean performing worse than you could, it means performing worse compared to everybody else in your group. I guess I should’ve started with that, but I assumed…since it’s in the topic title and all…

So your definition of a leeching player is him lying dead on the floor all the time.
Mine is not performing the best you could.

I guess our argument is done then.

BUTTERBLUME.3217:

So your definition of a leeching player is him lying dead on the floor all the time.
Mine is not performing the best you could.

I guess our argument is done then.

My definition would also be the actual meaning of the word. From:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leecher
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=leecher
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/leech
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/leech
It has a lot to do with where the word comes from.

Lold
You can not let me have the last post I guess?
Challenge accepted:

‘…or makes only token offerings in an attempt to avoid being called a leech’
taken from wikipedia.

Sounds like MF gear to me, eh?

Simple Solution

Allow only MF buffs to work in dungeons (MF Booster, MF food, MF banner, MF guild perk)

The effects of MF on weapons/gear/runes would be disabled – MF gear and runes would then only be used for open world farming

BUTTERBLUME.3217:

Lold
You can not let me have the last post I guess?
Challenge accepted:

‘…or makes only token offerings in an attempt to avoid being called a leech’
taken from wikipedia.

Sounds like MF gear to me, eh?

Why? Based on the calculations people did(and i think that was mw mfind vs exotic berserker?) mfind user does 2/3 of the dmg. I wouldn’t say that’s a token… And it’s, again, what a Knight set user would do. Does that make a Knight set user a leech as well?

And here’s smth else to chew on.
I assume that you have a lvl 80 char in full exotic and that you, at least once, killed a champion in one of the starter areas. Based on your definition, if I were to put on my mfind set and kill a champ in a lvl 1-15 area with a few lvl 3-10 players, I’ll be leeching, because I’m not wearing a berserker set.
And then the expression itself introduces another party, you are leeching -insert the correct preposition here- somebody. Which means you are contributing less compared to smb else. Thus if you are performing equally to the rest, you can’t be leeching, you are doing your share. If player B is equal to players A, C, D and E while player B is wearing mfind set, he’s doing his 20%. If that same player were to wear a berserker set, he’d obviously be doing more than the rest, namely 30%(based on the above mentioned calculations) while the rest would be contributing 17.5%. Wouldn’t then they be the leechers?

This is why I insist that leeching is based on performance not gear.

Your argument is broken because it is based in semantics, in this case a skill level of player which you cannot bring into equation as I have stated above.

Better skill doesn’t make up for lost 30% crit damage(or vitality, toughness, condition damage, you name it) no matter how you look at it. Good day.

FourTwenty.4268:

alcopaul.2156:

FourTwenty.4268:

Rezzet.3614:

MF does lower stats but even with lvl 80 exotic gear players still suck so it is not a matter of player wearing MF gear or not it is a matter of PLAYER’s skill and aid in dungeons or whatever

I’d agree here. I dont use MF, but I bet i could put out more DPS with full MF gear than noobie nooberson down the road can in full Exotic gear

while you’re at it, ill play along

ill take noobie nooberson wearing full appropriate exotics than noobie nooberson on full MF gear.

thats not how it works though. do you take a skilled player with an optimized build in full MF or do you take a noob with a gimp build in full exotics?

i promise you the noob wont know the optimal dps rotation nor will he have the reaction time to dodge when needed

noob vs. skill, who do you pick?

why couldn’t that skilled player be wearing appropriate exotics and that noob player wearing MF? the case could be your case or my case.

But let’s compare the gears as if they were worn by the same person/or 2 persons who have the same skill level

Berserkers (power, precision, +critical dmg) vs Explorers (power, precision, mf) = both are glass cannon but berserker wearer will do more dmg.

Knights (power, precision, toughness) vs Explorers (power, precision, mf) = i know for a certain who’s gonna be one shotted or die a lot.

I question the mindset of players, not their performance, because there is no point in doing that.
As I have already said two times now:

I play with anyone, ignoring all the things people do wrong ingame, or the gear they wear.

Everyone has a reason for choosing the gear he is wearing:

Knight set: You want damage, but you can not handle replacing the toughness in actual combat.

Berserker: You want damage and you CAN replace the toughness of a knight set.

MF: You want damage (if it is not just a byproduct of MF at least), but instead of choosing more damage with berserker, because you could handle it, you choose to get yourself more money.

I am not the guy, hating on all the people using MF.
But just from my personal point of view , going through the numbers, you do not make more, but LESS money, running dungeons in MF gear, except fractals.

I do not care about how who performs compared to whom, but getting MF gear for dungeons is a bad build to begin with.

If you want to call everyone who performs a little worse than others a leecher, go ahead, but that will not prove MF gear to be useful, nor the opposite. Arguing like that, I could tell you Power/Vit/Tough gear is uber bad and useless, yet you said it has its purpose some posts ago.

BUTTERBLUME.3217:

I am not the guy, hating on all the people using MF.
But just from my personal point of view, thinking about it, going through the numbers, you do not make more, but LESS money, running dungeons in MF gear, except fractals.

I do not care about how who performs compared to whom, but getting MF gear for dungeons is a bad build to begin with.

If you want to call everyone who performs a little worse than others a leecher, go ahead, but that will not prove MF gear to be useful, nor the opposite. Arguing like that, I could tell you Power/Vit/Tough gear is uber bad and useless, yet you said it has its purpose some posts ago.

I don’t know about how much gold/hour one gets with mf set or with normal set. By now I’m pretty convinced than mfind is a placebo. But, darn it, I’ll keep gathering in it because that little voice in my head keeps telling me I get more orbs with mfind set. I’ll also keep farming mobs with it, because of that same voice. It tries talking when I run dungeons, but there the I-want-to-impress-others-by-not-dying-all-the-time voice wins.

I’m not the one calling people in mfind gear leechers, that’d be you(I think) and the others I’m arguing against. Namely, the people saying that if you are running explorer instead of berserker, you are leeching. I didn’t say power/vit/toughness was useless or useful. I asked how that set factors in the “omg, 30% less crit dmg, n00bZ”-theme that’s going on here. And suddenly the dmg wasn’t an issue any more. And then the survival wasn’t an issue any more(I think somewhere we agreed that a glass cannon is stat-wise just as tanky as mfind). And since neither dmg nor survival are apparently a factor when it comes to contributing to the party…wait, what?! Oh, right, it was the “attitude” that made smb a leecher not the performance. That was when I realised the core of this topic is “mfind n00bZ because I don’t like the way they look at me.”

I will say it again:
I play with anyone Ran AC with a level 43 two days ago, so what?

I may have an edge here, because I do not think playing the game is how you make money. You play the TP if you want to do that.

So me playing the game is only for having fun doing it. I do not have some voice in the back of my head counting the gold I got per hour.

If someone wants to leech, he can do it in MF gear or without, would not make a difference.
But MF gear gives you some kind of ‘auto leech’ – aura, because your intent wearing it is more money for yourself, which results in not performing the best you could, no matter how well you play.
If you actually, by definition, leech in the end remains to be seen.

I think the OP made an interesting thread here.

Many of you are familiar perhaps with the so-called rules of the internet. Well I’ve got a rule for games as well:

Rule no. 1: If the game allows it, someone will do it.

The OP is doing it on purpose and why? Because not only does Anet allow it but worse they encourage people to play this way. The OP explains very well why he does it and even though I find it lacking character on his side, I cannot blame him at the same time for doing this.

alcopaul.2156:

why couldn’t that skilled player be wearing appropriate exotics and that noob player wearing MF? the case could be your case or my case.

But let’s compare the gears as if they were worn by the same person/or 2 persons who have the same skill level

Berserkers (power, precision, +critical dmg) vs Explorers (power, precision, mf) = both are glass cannon but berserker wearer will do more dmg.

Knights (power, precision, toughness) vs Explorers (power, precision, mf) = i know for a certain who’s gonna be one shotted or die a lot.

cause it’s a hypothetical question to find out whether or not it’s the gear/performance that you guys hate or if it’s the attitude behind MF in general.

to me it seems to be a stand on principal than performance in a dungeon. which is just humorous, and something the devs should know when they decide to change it or not.

Imagine the whole team would play high-lvl FOTM fully decked in MF-gear. It would be like playing with only four. Then someone got a disconnect, what would they do then? Change gear? Hell no, they would rather let the party wipe and go back to la before taking off their precious mf-gear.

digiowl.9620:

Do ANet have an economist on staff to manage and structure the in-game economy?

Yes they do actually.

FourTwenty.4268:

alcopaul.2156:

FourTwenty.4268:

Rezzet.3614:

MF does lower stats but even with lvl 80 exotic gear players still suck so it is not a matter of player wearing MF gear or not it is a matter of PLAYER’s skill and aid in dungeons or whatever

I’d agree here. I dont use MF, but I bet i could put out more DPS with full MF gear than noobie nooberson down the road can in full Exotic gear

while you’re at it, ill play along

ill take noobie nooberson wearing full appropriate exotics than noobie nooberson on full MF gear.

thats not how it works though.

What do you mean, that’s not how it works? When you’re pugging, that’s exactly how it works.

Pixelninja.6971:

Imagine the whole team would play high-lvl FOTM fully decked in MF-gear. It would be like playing with only four. Then someone got a disconnect, what would they do then? Change gear? Hell no, they would rather let the party wipe and go back to la before taking off their precious mf-gear.

Imagine a whole team of level 50 players in green level 40 gear. It would be like playing with only two. See how silly this is?

It’s pretty obvious the anti-MF crowd is anti-MF for emotional, not rational reasons. (btw, emotional is not negative…it’s just a descriptor) I’ve lost count of how many times I’ve pointed out that in the vast majority of dungeons and content in GW2, a player decked out in full MF exotics is overpowered versus the difficulty of the content. I’ve also questioned whether a player who did less to help the group would be more welcome than a player in MF would be, even though the MF player is providing more benefit, and it’s pretty obvious its the wearing of MF, not the contribution to the group, that matters.

That’s why I say this is an emotional argument for anti-MF people (and again, there’s nothing wrong with that as fun is tied to emotions as well, and games should be fun). I also suspect that’s why they choose the word ‘leech’ which has definite negative connotations even though it’s pretty obvious that a player doing at least 1/5 of the damage is doing at least their share, and hence, is not a parasite. They have negative emotions tied to seeing another player in MF gear and want a negative word to illustrate those feelings.

It’s also why this argument is going to go nowhere at this point. The pro-MF crowd can point out all the reasons why they’re wearing MF gear and how it has no significant impact on the group’s success and it won’t matter. The anti-MF crowd isn’t interested in group success as the ultimate goal. They are interested in everybody getting the same amount of reward for the same time invested.

The key part in that last statement being time, not skill, that matters to them.

skotie.2614:

What honestly would have been wrong with the suggestion to change magic find I said ages ago?

Change magic find to a passive effect on your character rewarded from doing things in game, map completion, pvp, dungeon completions, jumping puzzles etc. The more achievements you’ve done the higher your magic find would rise and the better loot you would get all the time. This would of course mean replacing current magic find gear stats to something else and food and other things which give boosts to magic find other buffs as well.

This system would give better rewards to those who have been doing more activities in game and give you overall better drops depending on how much time you’ve invested into your character. Best of all magic find would not be on gear, food, sigils or anything else, meaning you can actually gear for survival, burst damage in pvp, condition damage etc. Your magic find stat would be I say again a passive effect on your character meaning you would have it in effect no matter what you wear, even if you wore nothing at all.

This idea has potential; maybe the buff would last a limited time, but would refresh each time you did something. Even people who play infrequently do something when they play (presumably). But no MF buff for flipping items on the BLTP. >.>

It’s interesting how everyone who posted pro-MF on this thread had the exact same argument “I can pull my weight in a dungeon, I’m always the last to die even though I’m MF” etc how elitist is that? Are you serious?

Are you certain that everyone that runs MF is like you or is maybe using green/rare MF gear just to leech? The second is more prevalent IN THE GAME, apparently the forums are full of pro MF players who can compensate for their subpar gear with skill, the real world is obviously different and that’s the problem. A few vocal pro-MF players come on forums to show off their skills offering nothing on the issue at hand.

Continue being a “pro” who “rules with MF while others die” which can also mean running like a chicken, doing subpar damage so not aggroing anything and so on and so on. There are lots of ways NOT to die in a dungeon, and no way to judge your dps so posts “I’m in MF and do the most DPS” are garbage. Find some other argument this is getting very old and doesn’t offer anything, oh right out of every single thread on MF there is NO other argument for it… just “pros” posting how pro they are and MF doesn’t slow them down, find something else to say.

digiowl.9620:

Am i the only one that thinks they are just trolling us with a generic name when in reality they don’t have an economist on staff?

Yes.

maddoctor.2738:

It’s interesting how everyone who posted pro-MF on this thread had the exact same argument “I can pull my weight in a dungeon, I’m always the last to die even though I’m MF” etc how elitist is that? Are you serious?

Are you certain that everyone that runs MF is like you or is maybe using green/rare MF gear just to leech? The second is more prevalent IN THE GAME, apparently the forums are full of pro MF players who can compensate for their subpar gear with skill, the real world is obviously different and that’s the problem. A few vocal pro-MF players come on forums to show off their skills offering nothing on the issue at hand.

Continue being a “pro” who “rules with MF while others die” which can also mean running like a chicken, doing subpar damage so not aggroing anything and so on and so on. There are lots of ways NOT to die in a dungeon, and no way to judge your dps so posts “I’m in MF and do the most DPS” are garbage. Find some other argument this is getting very old and doesn’t offer anything, oh right out of every single thread on MF there is NO other argument for it… just “pros” posting how pro they are and MF doesn’t slow them down, find something else to say.

In other words, you don’t have a response to the points we’re making. You just have wild accusations to throw around.

Also, I’ve not once said “EVERY SINGLE MF PLAYER IN THE GAME IS MORE L33T THAN YOU LOSERS WHO DON’T LIKE MF SO L2P NOOB” cuz I don’t think that’s true. I do think there are leeches out there. I just don’t think they’re all in MF gear.

The point I, and most of the other pro-MF people have been trying to make is that MF should not be the end-all be-all of evaluating someone’s contribution to a group. If someone isn’t pulling their weight, you don’t need to see their gear to know it. You’ll know it because they’re lying on the ground dead during practically every fight. You’ll know it because no matter how many times you try to explain that rushing the boss before clearing trash mobs is bad, or that pulling the boss out from under the molten metal is a mistake, or that wasting time killing infinite respawning minions rather than focusing on the critter that’s spawning them, or any of the myriad other things that bad players do.

I look at being able to wear MF gear as a way to get better rewards for my better skill while running easy content. I don’t believe that I should have to do twice as much damage as everyone else by wearing zerker gear while running AC. The group doesn’t need me to, and it’s not going to save us more than a minute or two. I believe that as long as I’m contributing at the very least 1/5 of the damage or its equivalent (cuz bunker builds might not get to 1/5, but they can more than make up for it via boons, healing, tanking, etc) I’m valuable to the group and pulling my weight.

I also think that if you have such a strong negative response to the very idea that someone might be getting better rewards than you because they’re using MF gear, you should, you really should, not play with them. Simply announce when forming the group that you don’t want any MF users in your group. Problem solved.

(On the other hand, if you wait until the final boss before kicking them, then you are griefing, and you are wrong.)

I’ll play in groups that don’t mind skilled players getting better rewards. You’ll play in groups where everyone gets the same chance for reward for time invested. We’ll all be happy.

Xavori.3768:

In other words, you don’t have a response to the points we’re making. You just have wild accusations to throw around.

I already responded to everything anyone said on this thread and elsewhere. It all comes down to “pulling your weight in dungeons even with MF gear”, haven’t seen anything other than that. I’ve answered to that countless times and all I get is the same argument again.

Xavori.3768:

I also think that if you have such a strong negative response to the very idea that someone might be getting better rewards than you because they’re using MF gear, you should, you really should, not play with them. Simply announce when forming the group that you don’t want any MF users in your group. Problem solved.

I do, I always do. The problem is with the transmutations around there is no way to know that that full COF warrior is using full MF or not, and unfortunately people hide it so I cant’ really do anything unless the game gives me a way to find them and not group with them, until that day comes the problem is by no means solved.

Xavori.3768:

I look at being able to wear MF gear as a way to get better rewards for my better skill while running easy content. I don’t believe that I should have to do twice as much damage as everyone else by wearing zerker gear while running AC. The group doesn’t need me to, and it’s not going to save us more than a minute or two. I believe that as long as I’m contributing at the very least 1/5 of the damage or its equivalent (cuz bunker builds might not get to 1/5, but they can more than make up for it via boons, healing, tanking, etc) I’m valuable to the group and pulling my weight.

Again the typical “I’m a pro argument, therefore I can easily use MF gear”. Do you honestly believe that people start using MF gear AFTER they actually mastered their class/game and are now good players? No they don’t and as I’ve said countless times I have no problems teaching people both how to play and which gear to choose (offering advice) unfortunately MF gear player are beyond help, they think they are pro so they deserve better loot for their laughable “better” skills and talking about gear won’t go anywhere they already have their “pro” gear.
Why not use that zerker gear if you can, so as to finish the dungeon sooner? I still don’t get this, you say you don’t have to but I ask why not? You aren’t tanking, you aren’t supporting, you are simply damaging then why not go all the way to offer more to the group than be completely selfish?

Also, I’ve not once said “EVERY SINGLE MF PLAYER IN THE GAME IS MORE L33T THAN YOU LOSERS WHO DON’T LIKE MF SO L2P NOOB” cuz I don’t think that’s true. I do think there are leeches out there. I just don’t think they’re all in MF gear.

I read and reread all posts on this thread “proMF” they all talk about how they can pull their weight as if that alone justifies MF gear… Now you are taking it to another extreme, the middle ground is reality, there are bad players both with MF and without it. Those without can be taught and be better players, those with are not.

Xavori.3768:

The point I, and most of the other pro-MF people have been trying to make is that MF should not be the end-all be-all of evaluating someone’s contribution to a group. If someone isn’t pulling their weight, you don’t need to see their gear to know it. You’ll know it because they’re lying on the ground dead during practically every fight. You’ll know it because no matter how many times you try to explain that rushing the boss before clearing trash mobs is bad, or that pulling the boss out from under the molten metal is a mistake, or that wasting time killing infinite respawning minions rather than focusing on the critter that’s spawning them, or any of the myriad other things that bad players do.

But that’s the problem with MF I don’t care if you pull your weight or not, I’m happy with playing with noobs. I care that you could’ve done it a lot better but you chose not to. Simple.

Since loot is player based and not group defined, I don’t see any issue with a player wearing MF. Like nodes. Doesn’t affect me, good for them! BUT, If they are level 80 wearing level 80 gear and dying, then I would have to say they are playing too aggressively drawing aggro. At 80 now, I haven’t made any MF gear but I want to assume it’s way more of an adjustment to your character (skills, traits, play style) that just swapping out gear. Use the ole noggin people.

Which is why I said that it’s easily noticeable and why I vote/kick that person or leave immediately upon making it clear I wont carry someone else sporting MF

I really like when people like you start gear-checking me. I shift my knight/invaders/rabid exotics and then decline the party. Because sure as hell I am not going to run anything with people who are not sure of their own abilities to clear the dungeon to the point they have to rely it on others (thus gear-check).
I also have another knight+MF runes set and opal jewels handy. So if I see we clear a dungeon with no problems, I change my gear accordingly. When I run with my guild I always use my MF gear and I believe I got downed once in last couple of weeks or so when frostbite debuff bugged on me and I had 13 stacks for about 10 minutes. I only got down when we switched fractals and I had nothing to hit anymore (AH guardian).

MF is a pointless stat that should not have been in game to begin with, but I am not going to judge anyone running it for using valid game mechanic.

PS Also, set with traveller runes have might duration and due to traits I give a lot of might to my party. So for the party it is actually better if I run MF gear than if I run extra vit-runes gear as long as I don`t get downed, lol.

Ansultares.1567:

What do you mean, that’s not how it works? When you’re pugging, that’s exactly how it works.

but it’s not. if you’re in a guild and you ‘know’ what someone is wearing, then sure. but not in a pug. you have ZERO clue(if they choose to hide it) on whether or not they’re wearing MF or not. so you dont get to pick

I’ll say what I say to others,

MF gear doesn’t reduce your damage significant enough to lets say “significantly slow down your run”.

MF gear reduces your survivability so if you’re dying heaps then yes you’re slowing the run down for your teammates, but if you know timing and the dodges and you’re not the one downing all the time then you’re not being a liability.

Player skill and non-communicating players are the real culprits of inefficient runs.

If I’m not running with some magic find gear, for your benifit, should I expect you to give me your loot as recompense?

I run full exotic gear with 3 pieces of ascended. I have between 70-80% magic find through runes and 1 to 2 pieces of jewlery. I have a luck sigil on my Greatsword that I use almost exclusivly in the open world. And I rarely, if ever, feel like the weakest player in a group, in the open world or in WvW.

I would love to have another few points in stats here and there, and a gimmick or 2, but this was the most efficiant way of gaining a stat for MY character that is supposed to help towards my goals in this game, while maintaing a useful, durable role.

But, if any of you have trouble walking accross Orr, either killing mobs or just running to where you want to be, you really shoulden’t be worrying about me. If you think Lupi is OP, it’s ok, people like me can keep him engaged while everyone else runs back. Granted some people take a parasitic stance, like others don’t understand compromise. But trying to guilt players into giving up 1 stat for another so you can do as you please, seems more selfish than someone like me. But spiteful, spoiled and indignante players might not see it that way.

I would be happy if the MF stat disappeared, but as GW1 players will tell you, the drop rates stunk there, and I as one of those people, think it’s improved in GW2, but nowhere near enough.

FourTwenty.4268:

Ansultares.1567:

What do you mean, that’s not how it works? When you’re pugging, that’s exactly how it works.

but it’s not. if you’re in a guild and you ‘know’ what someone is wearing, then sure. but not in a pug. you have ZERO clue(if they choose to hide it) on whether or not they’re wearing MF or not. so you dont get to pick

Then you will dictate what sort of stats they should have on their gear, what sort of spec, which abilities to use and which weapons.

Darque Intent.1674:

If I’m not running with some magic find gear, for your benifit, should I expect you to give me your loot as recompense?

I run full exotic gear with 3 pieces of ascended. I have between 70-80% magic find through runes and 1 to 2 pieces of jewlery. I have a luck sigil on my Greatsword that I use almost exclusivly in the open world. And I rarely, if ever, feel like the weakest player in a group, in the open world or in WvW.

I would love to have another few points in stats here and there, and a gimmick or 2, but this was the most efficiant way of gaining a stat for MY character that is supposed to help towards my goals in this game, while maintaing a useful, durable role.

But, if any of you have trouble walking accross Orr, either killing mobs or just running to where you want to be, you really shoulden’t be worrying about me. If you think Lupi is OP, it’s ok, people like me can keep him engaged while everyone else runs back. Granted some people take a parasitic stance, like others don’t understand compromise. But trying to guilt players into giving up 1 stat for another so you can do as you please, seems more selfish than someone like me. But spiteful, spoiled and indignante players might not see it that way.

I would be happy if the MF stat disappeared, but as GW1 players will tell you, the drop rates stunk there, and I as one of those people, think it’s improved in GW2, but nowhere near enough.

Well said.

meh, what I read in the OP is that him and his groups still complete the dungeons. As long as it is fun and we complete the dungeons, I couldn’t give a rats butt what they are wearing.

ive done this many times. I got my mf gear transmuted to a dungeon set (exotic) so people don’t really take it for mf. I use it in most dungeons, to get better loot. I do the dungeons for loot, so why not bring mf ? 0o it’s farming. come on. and the dungeons are so easy anyway once you’ve done em a few times you could run them without armor if you had to. xD That’s how i feel about it. I bring mf to fractals as well. up to lvl 10, that is. Then it gets hard and it’s best to put on the strong gear. Same goes for dungeons like Arah where I dont bring mf gear. I dont think you’re a leecher for using mf gear when you do it in easy dungeons etc. I think the whole group should do it, then it would be great farming for all of them and hardly more challenging. (from my experience with full mf groups) MF is for farming and I farm dungeons. Just my opinion.

Lafiel.9372:

I’ll say what I say to others,

MF gear doesn’t reduce your damage significant enough to lets say “significantly slow down your run”.

MF gear reduces your survivability so if you’re dying heaps then yes you’re slowing the run down for your teammates, but if you know timing and the dodges and you’re not the one downing all the time then you’re not being a liability.

Player skill and non-communicating players are the real culprits of inefficient runs.

You have to assume all things equal (player skill, builds etc) with only difference being gear or the comparison between MF and non-MF gear is moot.

As for the speed of the runs…yeaaaah, you’re wrong. Take my stats for example:
MF gear: pow-2942, 34% crit, 52% crit dmg.
Non-MF: pow-3389, 44% crit, 116% crit dmg.

Using the formula from maddoctor and axes I use: Damage done = (weapon damage) * Power * (skill-specific coefficient) / (target’s Armor)

MF: 952*2942*1/2600=1077
Non-Mf: 952*3389*1/2600=1241

MF crit: 1077*1,52=1637
Non-MF: 1241*2,16=2680

Average MF: 1077*0,66+1637*0,34=1267
Average non-MF: 1241*0,56+2680*0,44=1874

So the BASE difference on my gear is 47,8% more DPS with damage gear.
Now, if I take in to account that I have perma fury (20% more crit), sigil of bloodlust, banner of discipline (10% crit dmg – perma on most bosses), self might of 5-8 stacks AND those stats for MF are from beserker weapons (so if I took MF weapons even less dmg right there)…the difference starts becoming ridiculously high even before accounting for other ppls buffs (mmm, dat timewarp and guardian quickness+might)…those axe autoattacks go up to 4,6-5k per crit hit.

Now, think of the same 5 ppl with MF gear and 5 ppl without. Massive massive difference in speed.

i can vouch for the above post. as condition necro, with mf gear i know im doing significantly less dmg then with proper stats. ( i build glass cannon either way so it doesnt affect my survivability).

I wouldn’t assume player skill is equal in any of this. There are far more people that don’t understand their build/profession than there is an issue with MF gear. You can do runs faster with better skilled players that know the challenges in full MF than you ever could with the prior.

Personally I don’t care either way, take it out or leave it in. I’d rather see better tutorials and better sorted info for newer players.

In any case, it’s not up to you telling people how they should play, period.

I think that anet kittened up with MF and it’s a stat that should not be in this game. I blame anet, not players.

I have to agree that the loot & drop system were not well planned.

@maddoctor

If I ran full zerker gear…like I do on my ranger…it wouldn’t change the speed of an AC run more than a minute. It wouldn’t change the run of even a fractal level 10 by more than a minute or two. And all it would take to more than offset that minute is one person in my group not knowing what they are doing. At that point, they’re slowing me down.

And the thing is, normally I’m hunky dory with that. I don’t expect people to be running dungeons for my benefit. I don’t expect them to be running perfect builds or perfect gear or even anything close. All I care about is that we’re going to finish the dungeon and have fun doing it.

That’s what I truly do not get. Why is it wrong for me to wear MF gear if I’m still pulling my weight in the group? And why do you care so much if you can shave a minute or two off of an AC or low level fractal run? You can only run them once a day for full reward anyway.

@Novalight,

You’re talking about a whole ‘nother subject than the one most of the pro-MF people are talking about. Speed runs and hard content…yes…I have 7 other toons in exotics to run those with depending on what would best benefit the group. Heck, give me another week and I’ll not only have 7 other classes to pick from with non-MF, I’ll even have a second warrior who won’t be wearing MF.

The point I’ve been making, repeatedly, is that for most content in the game, players are so seriously overpowered already, that I can nerf myself and STILL be overpowered. And the only places where I’m not overpowered you wouldn’t want a full-bore DPS build anyway because it’d just be dead.

Xavori.3768:

And why do you care so much if you can shave a minute or two off of an AC or low level fractal run? You can only run them once a day for full reward anyway.

The obvious answer is that its their time to “waste” or not waste as they see fit. This is nothing new in MMO’s. In other games groups will discriminate on knowing the dungeon, gear and builds. In this game, the rest is there, and magic find is just an added part of the gear issue. We live in an age where one’s own convenience is important to a lot of folks.

nofo.8469:

Am i the only one that thinks they are just trolling us with a generic name when in reality they don’t have an economist on staff?

Poor John xD

He certainly seems like he knows what he’s talking about, he’s actually very active on the BLTC forum and regularly answers people’s questions and discusses the game’s economics. I’ve found it quite enlightening :p

I think the loot system may not be his work, but rather a case of the left hand not knowing what the right is doing.

Novalight.7568:

Lafiel.9372:

I’ll say what I say to others,

MF gear doesn’t reduce your damage significant enough to lets say “significantly slow down your run”.

MF gear reduces your survivability so if you’re dying heaps then yes you’re slowing the run down for your teammates, but if you know timing and the dodges and you’re not the one downing all the time then you’re not being a liability.

Player skill and non-communicating players are the real culprits of inefficient runs.

You have to assume all things equal (player skill, builds etc) with only difference being gear or the comparison between MF and non-MF gear is moot.

As for the speed of the runs…yeaaaah, you’re wrong. Take my stats for example:
MF gear: pow-2942, 34% crit, 52% crit dmg.
Non-MF: pow-3389, 44% crit, 116% crit dmg.

Using the formula from maddoctor and axes I use: Damage done = (weapon damage) * Power * (skill-specific coefficient) / (target’s Armor)

MF: 952*2942*1/2600=1077
Non-Mf: 952*3389*1/2600=1241

MF crit: 1077*1,52=1637
Non-MF: 1241*2,16=2680

Average MF: 1077*0,66+1637*0,34=1267
Average non-MF: 1241*0,56+2680*0,44=1874

So the BASE difference on my gear is 47,8% more DPS with damage gear.
Now, if I take in to account that I have perma fury (20% more crit), sigil of bloodlust, banner of discipline (10% crit dmg – perma on most bosses), self might of 5-8 stacks AND those stats for MF are from beserker weapons (so if I took MF weapons even less dmg right there)…the difference starts becoming ridiculously high even before accounting for other ppls buffs (mmm, dat timewarp and guardian quickness+might)…those axe autoattacks go up to 4,6-5k per crit hit.

Now, think of the same 5 ppl with MF gear and 5 ppl without. Massive massive difference in speed.

i think the thing is that you dont ‘have’ to assume all things will be equal. I doubt you’re gonna pick 2 random pugs to do a dungeon and the both be equal across the board.

one will be better than the other. if a person can make up the difference between himself and the ‘average bad’ pugger with skill and reaction time/usefulness to the group, then i say let him wear MF.

ill take someone that knows what he’s doing, but does 10% less damage(because of MF gear) than the ‘average bad’ pugger that has no idea what he’s doing

I think if you want to define quite rigorously what kit other people in your party are using, you should join a dungeon running guild and get a party together regularly who you know and can trust to play by the same rules as you do.

If you go with PUGs, you should accept that you don’t get a say in the equipment they’re using and just get on with it, or ask for magic find to be removed from the game – but don’t blame others for trying to get the most they can out of the game. Complaining about the very existence of Magic Find is far more productive.

(for the record, I don’t run dungeons – largely because some of the ruthless analytics some people would be keen to do with the figures, should they be available, kills it for me. You should be doing it because you enjoy doing it; not because you’re trying to max out efficiency for every second you drag yourself over broken glass. If you feel you’re doing that, you should probably go do something else!!)

I wear full magic find armor and accessories ALL the time and no one has ever complained. I don’t care if I’m called a leech MF gives you a chance at better loot in a terrible loot system. Others are welcome to wear it I have no problem. Don’t be concerned with what gear someone’s wearing, as long as they aren’t dying every second you don’t get to tell them how to play. Seriously, this is a dumb conversation!

I agree that magic find needs to be changed in some fashion (like average it out among the party or remove it entirely or something else).