Guild Wars 2

I know this will be an unpopular topic for people who run condition builds so bare with me please.
When it comes to conditions in pvp game modes confusion and torment are the two I dislike the most, simply cause they feel cheap and over the top compared to what they actually do in comparison to other conditions.
Basically what bugs me the most about these two is that they still have a DOT on them even though they have super strong active effects. It’s not about being able to cleanse them or not, or how many times it can be applied on certain builds.

Confusion should do one thing and one thing only, if you keep using your skills when you have it, you should get punished.
Torment should do one thing and one thing only, if you keep moving you’ll get punished.
It’s simple. But currently one gets punished twice with these two conditions, while all the other conditions mostly do one thing.

I don’t know, I might be in the wrong, but like I said they feel very cheap compared to other conditions and IMO, need their DOT removed.

Without the dot, both of them could become close to being useless, especially in pve.

I won’t comment on confusion as I don’t use it that often.
But torment seems fine to me, it does roughly 0.75x the damage of bleeding when standing still and 1.5x when moving and is a bit harder to apply than bleeding.

Also, torment has always damaged whether the target moved or not while confusion used to only only damage on skill use.

Torment at least (and probably confusion as well) would probably have to be increased in damage if it were ever changed in this way.

How does someone get punished twice from confusion?

Stiofan.6720:

How does someone get punished twice from confusion?

1: For using a skill.
2: It has a DoT whether you use a skill or not.

Loosmaster.8263:

Stiofan.6720:

How does someone get punished twice from confusion?

1: For using a skill.
2: It has a DoT whether you use a skill or not.

this is also way worse in WvW

where mesmers can equip perplexity runes and sigils of torment effecively keeping perma 11+ stacks of confusion on target at all times as well as 4+ stacks of torment

altho to be fair that goes for anyone who can interrupt spam so basically all condition builds running perplexity are broken

I don’t know; condition cleanse or redistribution builds seem to be pretty strong counters. I have seen both druids and tempest simply eat this type of problem right up. Though they give up a lot of their damage to do this.

Ah, yes. I can see what’s happening here. “I keep getting beaten by people running condition builds. Yes it must be the torment and confusion killing me.”

This is a L2P issue. I play warrior mostly, I have 4 of them. So if I can beat condition builds, and I’m not that good, anyone can, with some practice.

BrotherBelial.3094:

Ah, yes. I can see what’s happening here. “I keep getting beaten by people running condition builds. Yes it must be the torment and confusion killing me.”

This is a L2P issue. I play warrior mostly, I have 4 of them. So if I can beat condition builds, and I’m not that good, anyone can, with some practice.

why dont you go ahead on your warrior put up your confuse on interrupt trait and get the perplexity runes and wanderer gear with hammer and mace and shield and see how much of a fight your enemies put when you activate your signed and slam them with unblockable interrupts

some of us actually play more than 1 profession

The dot is what makes them not useless in PvE. If this does need adjusting (dunno if it does, don’t not care about PvP balance enough to say), I do hope they just split the effects for PvP/PvE and not nerf it wholesale.

BrotherBelial.3094:

Ah, yes. I can see what’s happening here. “I keep getting beaten by people running condition builds. Yes it must be the torment and confusion killing me.”

This is a L2P issue. I play warrior mostly, I have 4 of them. So if I can beat condition builds, and I’m not that good, anyone can, with some practice.

Agreed. Torment is a L2NotMove condition. Confusion is a L2NotHit condition. Or you can use condition removal skills/traits as well.

The DOT on Confusion was added not too long ago, and was a welcome change, especially for PvE players but probably for PvP/WvW players too (as long as they were the ones doing the inflicting, of course!)

penelopehannibal.8947:

BrotherBelial.3094:

Ah, yes. I can see what’s happening here. “I keep getting beaten by people running condition builds. Yes it must be the torment and confusion killing me.”

This is a L2P issue. I play warrior mostly, I have 4 of them. So if I can beat condition builds, and I’m not that good, anyone can, with some practice.

Agreed. Torment is a L2NotMove condition. Confusion is a L2NotHit condition. Or you can use condition removal skills/traits as well.

The DOT on Confusion was added not too long ago, and was a welcome change, especially for PvE players but probably for PvP/WvW players too (as long as they were the ones doing the inflicting, of course!)

I’d like to see you not move in WvW. You’re saying “Just stand there and eat my Confusion stacks because you will die from both if even think about dodging?” Cleansed, dodge, boom. WTH, I got stacks on me again.

I agree these need different effects in PvP, WvW, and PvE.
Main issue in PvE was that enemies didn’t use skills as often and some didn’t move very much if at all, so the passive DoT was needed.
PvP, I honestly don’t notice them much when playing against condi builds.

WvW though, is where it is noticeable, due to the existence of things like Perplexity Runes, food buffs, and probably other variables.
Torment: L2NotMove, except all around you are probably hard hitting AoE’s or AoE’s applying even more condi’s. So, you stand still, you die, you move, you take considerable damage.
Confusion combined with Blind is particularly annoying: You can cleanse, but how many of us have enough cleanses for how many condis a condi build can apply? So easiest way to clear blind is an autoattack, except then you take damage. You can’t really wait it out.

On that note though, out of all the condis, I hate bind the most. I used to run blinding ashes, but that was nerfed, which would’ve been fine, except anet left thief and Mesmer blinds alone, and thieves in particular, can keep you blinded pretty much indefinitely if they’re good.

Rezzet.3614:

BrotherBelial.3094:

Ah, yes. I can see what’s happening here. “I keep getting beaten by people running condition builds. Yes it must be the torment and confusion killing me.”

This is a L2P issue. I play warrior mostly, I have 4 of them. So if I can beat condition builds, and I’m not that good, anyone can, with some practice.

why dont you go ahead on your warrior put up your confuse on interrupt trait and get the perplexity runes and wanderer gear with hammer and mace and shield and see how much of a fight your enemies put when you activate your signed and slam them with unblockable interrupts

some of us actually play more than 1 profession

So do I. Most professions have condition clears. If you need to clear alot, take alot. If you are dropping in WvW, ever stopped to think, maybe there are more of them than me? If it’s a 1vs1 fight some classes are meant to counter others. Then there is the old adage of, “there is always someone better than you out there”

In a WvW setting, your not supposed to survive everything. The more I read the more I see, “I want to be immortal! I should never die to conditions or anything else ever!”

As I said, this is a L2P issue with a sprinkle of not understanding you can not survive every blob fight in WvW, if you are the focus of the enemy’s hate, you are going down no matter what you do.

Loosmaster.8263:

penelopehannibal.8947:

BrotherBelial.3094:

Ah, yes. I can see what’s happening here. “I keep getting beaten by people running condition builds. Yes it must be the torment and confusion killing me.”

This is a L2P issue. I play warrior mostly, I have 4 of them. So if I can beat condition builds, and I’m not that good, anyone can, with some practice.

Agreed. Torment is a L2NotMove condition. Confusion is a L2NotHit condition. Or you can use condition removal skills/traits as well.

The DOT on Confusion was added not too long ago, and was a welcome change, especially for PvE players but probably for PvP/WvW players too (as long as they were the ones doing the inflicting, of course!)

I’d like to see you not move in WvW. You’re saying “Just stand there and eat my Confusion stacks because you will die from both if even think about dodging?” Cleansed, dodge, boom. WTH, I got stacks on me again.

Each player on the opposing team have the same chance of getting the same conditions on them as you do as well.

L2Cry > L2P

niea.7504:

L2Cry > L2P

+1

Sindex.9520:

I don’t know; condition cleanse[snip]

You get killed by confusion damage when you try to cleanse.

BrotherBelial.3094:

Ah, yes. I can see what’s happening here. “I keep getting beaten by people running condition builds. Yes it must be the torment and confusion killing me.”

This is a L2P issue. I play warrior mostly, I have 4 of them. So if I can beat condition builds, and I’m not that good, anyone can, with some practice.

I don’t think that is what they are saying anymore then what you’re saying is “Please don’t nerf my builds, I need this cheese to win”

STIHL.2489:

BrotherBelial.3094:

Ah, yes. I can see what’s happening here. “I keep getting beaten by people running condition builds. Yes it must be the torment and confusion killing me.”

This is a L2P issue. I play warrior mostly, I have 4 of them. So if I can beat condition builds, and I’m not that good, anyone can, with some practice.

I don’t think that is what they are saying anymore then what you’re saying is “Please don’t nerf my builds, I need this cheese to win”

Everyone needs some build to win. What makes one build cheese and another one not?

STIHL.2489:

BrotherBelial.3094:

Ah, yes. I can see what’s happening here. “I keep getting beaten by people running condition builds. Yes it must be the torment and confusion killing me.”

This is a L2P issue. I play warrior mostly, I have 4 of them. So if I can beat condition builds, and I’m not that good, anyone can, with some practice.

I don’t think that is what they are saying anymore then what you’re saying is “Please don’t nerf my builds, I need this cheese to win”

So someone using a condition build is a cheeser.? Next thing you’ll tell me is anyone who uses traits is a cheeser. The only condition heavy class I play is a Necro. I don’t really play my Engi, thief or Ele.i don’t have a mesmer. So my power ranger, my herald rev, trap guard and my tank warriors are cheese. Ok then. I’ll bet money you run meta builds as soon as they hit Meta Battle or what ever site people get there builds from.

One mans cheese is another mans wine.

Sartharina.3542:

Sindex.9520:

I don’t know; condition cleanse[snip]

You get killed by confusion damage when you try to cleanse.

This. This is what absolutely irks me about confusion.

If it didn’t damage on dodge or cleanse activation, it wouldn’t be so bad. The fact that you literally will die and get punished from trying to counter an effect directly because it also counters the counter is absurd.

Really, it’s just perplexity runes that are the biggest offender (passive proc 3 stacks from being hit, passive CC reflection/CC, AoE CC and CC overload from elite specs makes it VERY easy to stack huge confusion just from runes). Get rid of those runes and most of the issues vanish. Get rid of these and dire gear together and all WvW-related condition issues for the most part vanish, too.

These sets aren’t even useful in PvE and aren’t accessible in sPvP because they’ve been labeled as too objectively OP since their release, so I see little reason to object.

DeceiverX.8361:

Sartharina.3542:

Sindex.9520:

I don’t know; condition cleanse[snip]

You get killed by confusion damage when you try to cleanse.

This. This is what absolutely irks me about confusion.

If it didn’t damage on dodge or cleanse activation, it wouldn’t be so bad. The fact that you literally will die and get punished from trying to counter an effect directly because it also counters the counter is absurd.

Really, it’s just perplexity runes that are the biggest offender (passive proc 3 stacks from being hit, passive CC reflection/CC, AoE CC and CC overload from elite specs makes it VERY easy to stack huge confusion just from runes). Get rid of those runes and most of the issues vanish. Get rid of these and dire gear together and all WvW-related condition issues for the most part vanish, too.

These sets aren’t even useful in PvE and aren’t accessible in sPvP because they’ve been labeled as too objectively OP since their release, so I see little reason to object.

If you get killed when using the cleanse, chances are you where dead ready. Unless you watch who’s attacking you and what skills/condition to the most damage to you. As I’ve said earlier in the thread, in a blob fight the chances of you going down are high. If for what ever reason you are singled out, you are going to die. When 3-4 players take a fancy to you, you are going down, no matter how good you are.

hobotnicax.7918:

I know this will be an unpopular topic for people who run condition builds so bare with me please.
When it comes to conditions in pvp game modes confusion and torment are the two I dislike the most, simply cause they feel cheap and over the top compared to what they actually do in comparison to other conditions.
Basically what bugs me the most about these two is that they still have a DOT on them even though they have super strong active effects. It’s not about being able to cleanse them or not, or how many times it can be applied on certain builds.

Confusion should do one thing and one thing only, if you keep using your skills when you have it, you should get punished.
Torment should do one thing and one thing only, if you keep moving you’ll get punished.
It’s simple. But currently one gets punished twice with these two conditions, while all the other conditions mostly do one thing.

I don’t know, I might be in the wrong, but like I said they feel very cheap compared to other conditions and IMO, need their DOT removed.

COnfusion and torment are a combo meant to shutdown a character.

Confusion should make your choice to use a skill difficult, and severly punished
Torment should make your choice to run difficult, and severly punished

The 2 combined will lock you in a situation where you cannot stay or do anything. so cleanse them or reflect them (tends to be epic)

These 2 conditions I use mostly on mesmer (viper PU condition, Sc/T & Sc/P (using nightmare here) and thief (interrupt viper condi build with perplexity runes) but tend to work very well in WvW.

Only way to counter is cleanse, or be cleansed or send it to another. Self cleans couyld be risky. And If I did it well you should have confusion, poison, torment, bleeding and some more before you notice you are suffering, causing the cleanse to probably remove the wrong conditions. In which case I only need to reup my stealth invisibility and stomp you.

Next time do not run alone. I might be hiding

Powerful counters vs condi thieves & PU mesmers are DUO groups of for example

Generally found in Zergs:

• Shout cleaners: warriors, guardians and other shout cleaners (ele’s/druids))
  Generally found in Havoc Squads
• condi necro’s with suffer and other ways to return conditions, or revenants
• condi builds in general….which outright kill me, cause I do not run any condition removal (do not have the slots).

^perplexity runes are nothing more then a tool, having a ranger trapper with 3 firefields and runes of the krait can be very painful as well. or any other build wich an be execuuted easily and provide a spike of somesorts (still hate DH trap stack when running back to zerg/ havoc team…)

Lastly the recharge on the runes effects is long, so you are not likely to have it dropped on you 2 times in a fight, and if it does happen you have been fighting for quite some time .

“COnfusion and torment are a combo meant to shutdown a character.”

This is exactly what’s wrong. The only thing that should shutdown a character is stun/daze and that’s it, and we all know how limited that is.

hobotnicax.7918:

“COnfusion and torment are a combo meant to shutdown a character.”

This is exactly what’s wrong. The only thing that should shutdown a character is stun/daze and that’s it, and we all know how limited that is.

Never been stun locked have you.

BrotherBelial.3094:

STIHL.2489:

BrotherBelial.3094:

Ah, yes. I can see what’s happening here. “I keep getting beaten by people running condition builds. Yes it must be the torment and confusion killing me.”

This is a L2P issue. I play warrior mostly, I have 4 of them. So if I can beat condition builds, and I’m not that good, anyone can, with some practice.

I don’t think that is what they are saying anymore then what you’re saying is “Please don’t nerf my builds, I need this cheese to win”

Ok then. I’ll bet money you run meta builds as soon as they hit Meta Battle or what ever site people get there builds from.

I could use some money, how much would you like to lose on that bet?

One mans cheese is another mans wine.

Thank you for admitting you need it, honesty is a rare find.

penelopehannibal.8947:

STIHL.2489:

BrotherBelial.3094:

Ah, yes. I can see what’s happening here. “I keep getting beaten by people running condition builds. Yes it must be the torment and confusion killing me.”

This is a L2P issue. I play warrior mostly, I have 4 of them. So if I can beat condition builds, and I’m not that good, anyone can, with some practice.

I don’t think that is what they are saying anymore then what you’re saying is “Please don’t nerf my builds, I need this cheese to win”

Everyone needs some build to win. What makes one build cheese and another one not?

I believe the OP outlined that, where they explained that these conditions had dual effects, which is what made them Cheesy in comparison to other Conditions.

DeceiverX.8361:

Really, it’s just perplexity runes that are the biggest offender (passive proc 3 stacks from being hit, passive CC reflection/CC, AoE CC and CC overload from elite specs makes it VERY easy to stack huge confusion just from runes). Get rid of those runes and most of the issues vanish. Get rid of these and dire gear together and all WvW-related condition issues for the most part vanish, too.

4 piece effect has a 25 second cooldown with a 25% chance of 3 stacks for 5 seconds. Full set is 5 stacks for 8 seconds with a 15 second cooldown. Cooldowns exist in wvw too. So…. Yea, get good.

Aidan Savage.2078:

DeceiverX.8361:

Really, it’s just perplexity runes that are the biggest offender (passive proc 3 stacks from being hit, passive CC reflection/CC, AoE CC and CC overload from elite specs makes it VERY easy to stack huge confusion just from runes). Get rid of those runes and most of the issues vanish. Get rid of these and dire gear together and all WvW-related condition issues for the most part vanish, too.

4 piece effect has a 25 second cooldown with a 25% chance of 3 stacks for 5 seconds. Full set is 5 stacks for 8 seconds with a 15 second cooldown. Cooldowns exist in wvw too. So…. Yea, get good.

Those runes apply 30% Confusion Duration, so that’s 5 stacks for 10.4 Seconds, with a 15 second cool down, at the full set, and 3 stacks 6.5 Seconds on the 4 runes with a 25 second cool down. Since they can dual pulse as well, which means you can get tagged for 5 stacks of 10.5 seconds of Confusion, then another 4 stacks of 6.5 seconds of Confusion, which can give you 16.9 seconds of Confusion, and then get tagged for another 5 stacks of Confusion, while still under the 4 Stacks, for 9 stacks of Confusion, for roughly 2.9 seconds, and that is above and beyond any other effects that the player is using on you.

In short, So for next 30 seconds of a fight, you can maintain no less then 3 stacks of confusion you, and go as high as 8 stacks, just from the runes alone.

It’s a cheesy crutch for the players that need them… which is always the people that defend them.

DeceiverX.8361:

Sartharina.3542:

You get killed by confusion damage when you try to cleanse.

This. This is what absolutely irks me about confusion.

If it didn’t damage on dodge or cleanse activation, it wouldn’t be so bad. The fact that you literally will die and get punished from trying to counter an effect directly because it also counters the counter is absurd.

Really, it’s just perplexity runes that are the biggest offender (passive proc 3 stacks from being hit, passive CC reflection/CC, AoE CC and CC overload from elite specs makes it VERY easy to stack huge confusion just from runes). Get rid of those runes and most of the issues vanish. Get rid of these and dire gear together and all WvW-related condition issues for the most part vanish, too.

These sets aren’t even useful in PvE and aren’t accessible in sPvP because they’ve been labeled as too objectively OP since their release, so I see little reason to object.

I would still say the right condition cleanse and redistribution builds can still be hard counters to these two types of conditions. Nevertheless I would somewhat agree with the sentiment that both of you are trying to get across. Only if we did not get some of these new “easy to manage,” support builds we have from HoT. Everyone talks about how easy it is to play the Reaper in order to rack up damage. However the abilities that the Druid and Tempest have at their disposal makes it harder to see this line of logic. Furthermore we have a new boon called Resistance as well. Not to mention that Sigil of Generosity is so dirt cheap after last Wintersday. Even somewhat advance players know how to utilize light fields properly in order to wipe out their conditions.

In my opinion Confusion and Torment conditions are no where near as powerful as their GW1 counterparts (Hex’s Backfire and Empathy). Due to them being having a smaller amount of ways to counter them as hex spells. Even the daze condition felt drastically more powerful in GW1 then it does in GW2 (in a pure CC form). Especially when it used to paired with GW1 epidemic skill. I digress though.

Finally if they did nerf these two conditions, by removing their passive damage over time function. Then they will have to increase it’s base damage function overall. Which in turn would make things worse, then what you believe they are now.

BrotherBelial.3094:

DeceiverX.8361:

Sartharina.3542:

Sindex.9520:

I don’t know; condition cleanse[snip]

You get killed by confusion damage when you try to cleanse.

This. This is what absolutely irks me about confusion.

If it didn’t damage on dodge or cleanse activation, it wouldn’t be so bad. The fact that you literally will die and get punished from trying to counter an effect directly because it also counters the counter is absurd.

Really, it’s just perplexity runes that are the biggest offender (passive proc 3 stacks from being hit, passive CC reflection/CC, AoE CC and CC overload from elite specs makes it VERY easy to stack huge confusion just from runes). Get rid of those runes and most of the issues vanish. Get rid of these and dire gear together and all WvW-related condition issues for the most part vanish, too.

These sets aren’t even useful in PvE and aren’t accessible in sPvP because they’ve been labeled as too objectively OP since their release, so I see little reason to object.

If you get killed when using the cleanse, chances are you where dead ready. Unless you watch who’s attacking you and what skills/condition to the most damage to you. As I’ve said earlier in the thread, in a blob fight the chances of you going down are high. If for what ever reason you are singled out, you are going to die. When 3-4 players take a fancy to you, you are going down, no matter how good you are.

We are watching. The condition that does the most damage is Confusion, because it’s killing us when we try to counter it, because it does that. And we’re not being focused by 3-4 players – Just one mesmer and its clones. But I think he’s right about the issue being the Perplexity runes.

Though – I don’t have a problem with Confusion’s damage-over-time. I think it’s on-skill-use may be overtuned with the underlying DoT, though. But it might just be the perplexity runes.

STIHL.2489:

BrotherBelial.3094:

STIHL.2489:

BrotherBelial.3094:

Ah, yes. I can see what’s happening here. “I keep getting beaten by people running condition builds. Yes it must be the torment and confusion killing me.”

This is a L2P issue. I play warrior mostly, I have 4 of them. So if I can beat condition builds, and I’m not that good, anyone can, with some practice.

I don’t think that is what they are saying anymore then what you’re saying is “Please don’t nerf my builds, I need this cheese to win”

Ok then. I’ll bet money you run meta builds as soon as they hit Meta Battle or what ever site people get there builds from.

I could use some money, how much would you like to lose on that bet?

One mans cheese is another mans wine.

Thank you for admitting you need it, honesty is a rare find.

penelopehannibal.8947:

STIHL.2489:

BrotherBelial.3094:

Ah, yes. I can see what’s happening here. “I keep getting beaten by people running condition builds. Yes it must be the torment and confusion killing me.”

This is a L2P issue. I play warrior mostly, I have 4 of them. So if I can beat condition builds, and I’m not that good, anyone can, with some practice.

I don’t think that is what they are saying anymore then what you’re saying is “Please don’t nerf my builds, I need this cheese to win”

Everyone needs some build to win. What makes one build cheese and another one not?

I believe the OP outlined that, where they explained that these conditions had dual effects, which is what made them Cheesy in comparison to other Conditions.

What? Where did I say I needed it? You read things completely wrong. But then you seem to think anyone using conditions need them to win. What do you use harsh language? But then all you seem to be doing is complaining that your getting beatten by people who use conditions. I smell L2P.

BrotherBelial.3094:

STIHL.2489:

BrotherBelial.3094:

STIHL.2489:

BrotherBelial.3094:

Ah, yes. I can see what’s happening here. “I keep getting beaten by people running condition builds. Yes it must be the torment and confusion killing me.”

This is a L2P issue. I play warrior mostly, I have 4 of them. So if I can beat condition builds, and I’m not that good, anyone can, with some practice.

I don’t think that is what they are saying anymore then what you’re saying is “Please don’t nerf my builds, I need this cheese to win”

Ok then. I’ll bet money you run meta builds as soon as they hit Meta Battle or what ever site people get there builds from.

I could use some money, how much would you like to lose on that bet?

One mans cheese is another mans wine.

Thank you for admitting you need it, honesty is a rare find.

penelopehannibal.8947:

STIHL.2489:

BrotherBelial.3094:

Ah, yes. I can see what’s happening here. “I keep getting beaten by people running condition builds. Yes it must be the torment and confusion killing me.”

This is a L2P issue. I play warrior mostly, I have 4 of them. So if I can beat condition builds, and I’m not that good, anyone can, with some practice.

I don’t think that is what they are saying anymore then what you’re saying is “Please don’t nerf my builds, I need this cheese to win”

Everyone needs some build to win. What makes one build cheese and another one not?

I believe the OP outlined that, where they explained that these conditions had dual effects, which is what made them Cheesy in comparison to other Conditions.

What? Where did I say I needed it? You read things completely wrong. But then you seem to think anyone using conditions need them to win. What do you use harsh language? But then all you seem to be doing is complaining that your getting beatten by people who use conditions. I smell L2P.

What? Where did I say any of that… Well pots and kettles as it were.

STIHL.2489:

penelopehannibal.8947:

Everyone needs some build to win. What makes one build cheese and another one not?

I believe the OP outlined that, where they explained that these conditions had dual effects, which is what made them Cheesy in comparison to other Conditions.

I’m not asking the OP, I’m asking you what makes a build ‘cheese’ since it was you who said it!

If having more than one effect on a condition means it should be nerfed, then they should nerf might as well, because it increases both power and condition damage. Let it only increase condition damage. Would you like that?

What I don’t get is why they keep nerfing power based attacks to the ground while allowing conditions to go on like this with impunity..

for power.. to work, people need to invest in 3 stats, Power, Precision and Ferocity, lacking in any would take its toll in either damage or consistency, allowing little room for survivability in stats.. meanwhile condition builds dish out competitively similar amounts of damage while only having to invest in Condition Damage, dumping the rest into survivability stats like Toughness and Vitality..

A person in PVT or even Knights gear can hardly dent a glass cannon while a person in Dire can down someone with 20k+ hp in 3 counts or less.. while having around 3k toughness and 20k+ hp themselves.. absurd.

Its not even a comparison.

As for cleanses, most cleanses are weak and are often on a long cooldown.. people who know what they’re doing will force you to cleanse and they’ll simply reapply a huge stack and there is simply no counterplay to this, you don’t cleanse you die, you cleanse its as expected and you still die.. unless of course you run a very very specific cleansing build with a full bar of cleanses and traits to spare in which case good for you.. thats how you play gw2.. oh so fun..

Sindex.9520:

DeceiverX.8361:

Sartharina.3542:

You get killed by confusion damage when you try to cleanse.

This. This is what absolutely irks me about confusion.

If it didn’t damage on dodge or cleanse activation, it wouldn’t be so bad. The fact that you literally will die and get punished from trying to counter an effect directly because it also counters the counter is absurd.

Really, it’s just perplexity runes that are the biggest offender (passive proc 3 stacks from being hit, passive CC reflection/CC, AoE CC and CC overload from elite specs makes it VERY easy to stack huge confusion just from runes). Get rid of those runes and most of the issues vanish. Get rid of these and dire gear together and all WvW-related condition issues for the most part vanish, too.

These sets aren’t even useful in PvE and aren’t accessible in sPvP because they’ve been labeled as too objectively OP since their release, so I see little reason to object.

I would still say the right condition cleanse and redistribution builds can still be hard counters to these two types of conditions. Nevertheless I would somewhat agree with the sentiment that both of you are trying to get across. Only if we did not get some of these new “easy to manage,” support builds we have from HoT. Everyone talks about how easy it is to play the Reaper in order to rack up damage. However the abilities that the Druid and Tempest have at their disposal makes it harder to see this line of logic. Furthermore we have a new boon called Resistance as well. Not to mention that Sigil of Generosity is so dirt cheap after last Wintersday. Even somewhat advance players know how to utilize light fields properly in order to wipe out their conditions.

In my opinion Confusion and Torment conditions are no where near as powerful as their GW1 counterparts (Hex’s Backfire and Empathy). Due to them being having a smaller amount of ways to counter them as hex spells. Even the daze condition felt drastically more powerful in GW1 then it does in GW2 (in a pure CC form). Especially when it used to paired with GW1 epidemic skill. I digress though.

Finally if they did nerf these two conditions, by removing their passive damage over time function. Then they will have to increase it’s base damage function overall. Which in turn would make things worse, then what you believe they are now.

That’s the irony, though; they used to deal more damage before when activated properly. Confustion damage per skill use before it was made DoT was way more than it is now. Even torment’s on-movement effect got nerfed substantially because its no-movement DoT got massively buffed. In essence, you used to be able to pretty much tank a condi mesmer by playing smart and taking few actions and movements. There wasn’t enough uptime on their conditions and cooldowns were high enough which opened windows of opportunity. Of course, this still destroyed small-scale since you could permanently maintain an impossible-to-deal-with level of confusion and torment from two sources.

Viper’s and Expertise paired with skill power creep as a whole have led to the ability for these builds to not have an effective counter, though, and corresponding cleanses haven’t been buffed to reflect this.

You need a stunbreak for power burst mitigation, a cleanse for condition application, and maybe an intermediate or combo-oriented skill for your own build’s function, and elites are typically just overall utility for the profession. People making claims which more cleanses need to be run clearly either run very passive builds with lots of auto-proc effects or simply don’t run balanced builds which get shut down by the absurdity that currently is the condition game.

I’d also like to mention they removed Antitoxin heal, which was one of the best ways to deal with these two conditions.

Confusion & Torment are super hard to balance between PvE and PvP. Originally, both types were effect only (no DoT) and too strong. There didn’t seem to be a happy medium, even after a nerf and even when the condition effects were split between the modes. Torment & confusion are still too weak in PvE to be that useful.

In PvP… I’d like to say that the old confusion was a sort of “pay attention” effect: players that couldn’t stop using skills died and those that could didn’t. Torment was trickier, because it’s dangerous to completely stop moving.

However, apparently a lot of players were simply unable to control their twitchy fingers and so these conditions are hybrid.

I’m not sure that anyone’s happy with the current set up, but I’ve yet to see a proposal that pleases anything close to most people.

Both of them are obsolete mechanics. Their concept stems from GW1 Mesmer skills, which would trigger on the enemy taking a certain action. A skilled mesmer could use these skills to manipulate their foes offensively, a gameplay style that hasn’t been repeated anywhere else, including GW2. Casting Backfire (dmg when spell cast) on a Monk (healer) forces the Monk to make a choice – use their hex removal cooldown (if they have one), soak the damage, or use a clever build to avoid it (since it only affects spells, they could still use Attacks, Skills, Traps, Signets, etc, if their build included any).

However, in GW2, that kind of manipulation/action forcing isn’t possible. Conditions are too easily spammable, too short duration, and too easily countered, and there are no longer selective counters or selective triggers. Conditions go up, come off, and go up again in the space of seconds. All skills count as a trigger for Confusion. All movement counts as a trigger for Torment. There’s no time for active counterplay and inadequate tools to make that counterplay with. Skill use and moving are core aspects of GW2 gameplay that you can’t realistically stop doing, so they aren’t really things that can be effectively punished. This means Confusion and Torment are nothing more then just another dps condition, and the only counter is to bring more condi cleansing.

If they want to revive punishment gameplay, Anet has to separate the PVP and PVE mechanics. The gameplay requirement of the two modes are too different. Confusion should trigger on non-AA skills, and Torment should trigger on Dodging and Mobility Skills. This would bring back the old GW1 gameplay they are poorly imitating. But that wouldn’t work in PVE, since mobs don’t dodge and rarely use skills. So PVP and PVE mechanics need to be separated for this to work.

I find it amusing that people say l2p when it comes to confusion/torment.

It is really, really simple. It is a matter of quantity and that’s why it OP. A single PU mesmer can reach 15-18 stacks of confusion and the only defense against that is condicleanse in less than one second or you are already dead. That’s not l2p, that’s pure luck. Similar reason why 8K burn ticks are OP or 25 might stacks for zerker builds get them insane damage. Put two of these together in a duo and well… you will die. Simple as that.

penelopehannibal.8947:

Everyone needs some build to win. What makes one build cheese and another one not?

It seems to mean any build the person calling it so doesn’t use and/or loses to.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Originally, both types were effect only (no DoT) and too strong.

That’s not true for torment, it always did damage regardless of movement, and more with movement.

And for anyone complaining about conditions in general:

Conditions take time to kill, when the equivalent damage on a power build would already have your opponent dead a condition build may still be taking damage.

Conditions can be cleansed thereby reducing the damage they’ll do.

If conditions are so overpowered why doesn’t everyone use them?
Quick check on a build site: Out of 6 PvP builds listed as “meta” 2 use a hybrid amulet (any amulet with equal power and condition damage) and the remaining 4 a power one (any amulet with power but no codition damage); the 6 builds listed as “great” are 3 power and 3 hybrid.

STIHL.2489:

penelopehannibal.8947:

STIHL.2489:

penelopehannibal.8947:

STIHL.2489:

penelopehannibal.8947:

Everyone needs some build to win. What makes one build cheese and another one not?

I believe the OP outlined that, where they explained that these conditions had dual effects, which is what made them Cheesy in comparison to other Conditions.

I’m not asking the OP, I’m asking you what makes a build ‘cheese’ since it was you who said it!

If having more than one effect on a condition means it should be nerfed, then they should nerf might as well, because it increases both power and condition damage. Let it only increase condition damage. Would you like that?

With a name like “Might” it would make more sense thematically if it only affected power, with that put out, If you’re not dealing with what the OP said, then you’re just derailing the discussion.

Eh? Derailing the discussion? How? I was responding to a comment you said originally. You responded to BrotherBelial and not the OP, so does that mean you’re derailing the conversation too?

But if you’re not going to answer, then whatever. To me it just sounds like you’re saying “Build that works for me is a good build. Build that works for them is a cheese build” by responding in your way to BrotherBelial originally, and by not answering me questioning your reply to BrotherBelial. /shrug.

Ok, let’s recap, because honestly, I don’t understand where you got lost. This entire discussion is about two Conditions, Torment and Confusion ergo, it should have be painfully clear that any mention of cheese in this discussion, would be directed at those the two conditions confusion and torment and how they are utilized. So to make this clear, and say it for the sake of having said it, because it was outright demanded by you, that I say this, any discussion of builds in this topic, would mean builds that depend on the use of confusion and torment.

I do not understand why the confusion in your part in regards to this, or why you demanded from me to say that, but, just to provide it you again, so that there is no question in the future, in case you are wondering if this entire topic is about the conditions confusion and torment allow me this moment to hold your hand and say “this entire topic is about Confusion and Torment”

Now, I am not sure how we have come to this, or why your post is so confrontational, or why you feel the need to endlessly demand that I say on a topic about confusion and torment that any mention of builds, would be exclusive to builds that use or depend on confusion and torment. I would have thought, that it would have been self evident, but it seems I am wrong on that one.

At this point, I am not even sure why or how we ever got to this point, or what you hoped to accomplish by your demand, but, I have to ask… and no offence intended, but what answer did you expect on a discussion about confusion and torment? Quaggen Hats?

So A warrior has a cheese build if he uses torment and confusion. Thank for letting me know, seeing as the only way I can get confusion with my build is if I interrupt a skill, as for torment, my build of sword Torch and mace shield do not have access to it. seeing as I play warrior, and I survive 1 vs 1 or 2 vs 1 fight quite often, against mesmers and the like, they are fine. it’s a L2P issue and people need to get on with it.

BrotherBelial.3094:

STIHL.2489:

penelopehannibal.8947:

STIHL.2489:

penelopehannibal.8947:

STIHL.2489:

penelopehannibal.8947:

Everyone needs some build to win. What makes one build cheese and another one not?

I believe the OP outlined that, where they explained that these conditions had dual effects, which is what made them Cheesy in comparison to other Conditions.

I’m not asking the OP, I’m asking you what makes a build ‘cheese’ since it was you who said it!

If having more than one effect on a condition means it should be nerfed, then they should nerf might as well, because it increases both power and condition damage. Let it only increase condition damage. Would you like that?

With a name like “Might” it would make more sense thematically if it only affected power, with that put out, If you’re not dealing with what the OP said, then you’re just derailing the discussion.

Eh? Derailing the discussion? How? I was responding to a comment you said originally. You responded to BrotherBelial and not the OP, so does that mean you’re derailing the conversation too?

But if you’re not going to answer, then whatever. To me it just sounds like you’re saying “Build that works for me is a good build. Build that works for them is a cheese build” by responding in your way to BrotherBelial originally, and by not answering me questioning your reply to BrotherBelial. /shrug.

Ok, let’s recap, because honestly, I don’t understand where you got lost. This entire discussion is about two Conditions, Torment and Confusion ergo, it should have be painfully clear that any mention of cheese in this discussion, would be directed at those the two conditions confusion and torment and how they are utilized. So to make this clear, and say it for the sake of having said it, because it was outright demanded by you, that I say this, any discussion of builds in this topic, would mean builds that depend on the use of confusion and torment.

I do not understand why the confusion in your part in regards to this, or why you demanded from me to say that, but, just to provide it you again, so that there is no question in the future, in case you are wondering if this entire topic is about the conditions confusion and torment allow me this moment to hold your hand and say “this entire topic is about Confusion and Torment”

Now, I am not sure how we have come to this, or why your post is so confrontational, or why you feel the need to endlessly demand that I say on a topic about confusion and torment that any mention of builds, would be exclusive to builds that use or depend on confusion and torment. I would have thought, that it would have been self evident, but it seems I am wrong on that one.

At this point, I am not even sure why or how we ever got to this point, or what you hoped to accomplish by your demand, but, I have to ask… and no offence intended, but what answer did you expect on a discussion about confusion and torment? Quaggen Hats?

So A warrior has a cheese build if he uses torment and confusion. Thank for letting me know, seeing as the only way I can get confusion with my build is if I interrupt a skill, as for torment, my build of sword Torch and mace shield do not have access to it. seeing as I play warrior, and I survive 1 vs 1 or 2 vs 1 fight quite often, against mesmers and the like, they are fine. it’s a L2P issue and people need to get on with it.

Yup, total cheese, in case you were wondering, with that put out, if you have any confusions about if this topic is about confusion and torment, feel free to not torment me with them.

this whole thread is kinda cheesy. it torments me that people are confused about this

STIHL.2489:

Yup, total cheese, in case you were wondering, with that put out, if you have any confusions about if this topic is about confusion and torment, feel free to not torment me with them.

Ok, so back to my original question, and please no politician’s answer this time:

What makes that build a cheese build?

My point is, why does it warrant name-calling a certain way of defeating an enemy, but another way of defeating an enemy is ok?

STIHL.2489:

BrotherBelial.3094:

STIHL.2489:

penelopehannibal.8947:

STIHL.2489:

penelopehannibal.8947:

STIHL.2489:

penelopehannibal.8947:

Everyone needs some build to win. What makes one build cheese and another one not?

I believe the OP outlined that, where they explained that these conditions had dual effects, which is what made them Cheesy in comparison to other Conditions.

I’m not asking the OP, I’m asking you what makes a build ‘cheese’ since it was you who said it!

If having more than one effect on a condition means it should be nerfed, then they should nerf might as well, because it increases both power and condition damage. Let it only increase condition damage. Would you like that?

With a name like “Might” it would make more sense thematically if it only affected power, with that put out, If you’re not dealing with what the OP said, then you’re just derailing the discussion.

Eh? Derailing the discussion? How? I was responding to a comment you said originally. You responded to BrotherBelial and not the OP, so does that mean you’re derailing the conversation too?

But if you’re not going to answer, then whatever. To me it just sounds like you’re saying “Build that works for me is a good build. Build that works for them is a cheese build” by responding in your way to BrotherBelial originally, and by not answering me questioning your reply to BrotherBelial. /shrug.

Ok, let’s recap, because honestly, I don’t understand where you got lost. This entire discussion is about two Conditions, Torment and Confusion ergo, it should have be painfully clear that any mention of cheese in this discussion, would be directed at those the two conditions confusion and torment and how they are utilized. So to make this clear, and say it for the sake of having said it, because it was outright demanded by you, that I say this, any discussion of builds in this topic, would mean builds that depend on the use of confusion and torment.

I do not understand why the confusion in your part in regards to this, or why you demanded from me to say that, but, just to provide it you again, so that there is no question in the future, in case you are wondering if this entire topic is about the conditions confusion and torment allow me this moment to hold your hand and say “this entire topic is about Confusion and Torment”

Now, I am not sure how we have come to this, or why your post is so confrontational, or why you feel the need to endlessly demand that I say on a topic about confusion and torment that any mention of builds, would be exclusive to builds that use or depend on confusion and torment. I would have thought, that it would have been self evident, but it seems I am wrong on that one.

At this point, I am not even sure why or how we ever got to this point, or what you hoped to accomplish by your demand, but, I have to ask… and no offence intended, but what answer did you expect on a discussion about confusion and torment? Quaggen Hats?

So A warrior has a cheese build if he uses torment and confusion. Thank for letting me know, seeing as the only way I can get confusion with my build is if I interrupt a skill, as for torment, my build of sword Torch and mace shield do not have access to it. seeing as I play warrior, and I survive 1 vs 1 or 2 vs 1 fight quite often, against mesmers and the like, they are fine. it’s a L2P issue and people need to get on with it.

Yup, total cheese, in case you were wondering, with that put out, if you have any confusions about if this topic is about confusion and torment, feel free to not torment me with them.

Lol, ok then I see you have no idea what your talking about. So you have no problem with being hit with any other condition, other than Confusion and/or torment. And anyone who uses them is using a cheese build.

You heard it here first folks, if we follow this guys thinking if a rev uses any weapon skill that inflicts torment he’s a cheeser, if a warrior have confusion traited and interrupts a skill, he is a cheeser.

As far as I can see, your inability to play is the problem. If you can’t learn when to use your damage mitigation skills to survive. Try a different class. The one you are playing is not working for you.

BrotherBelial.3094:

STIHL.2489:

BrotherBelial.3094:

STIHL.2489:

penelopehannibal.8947:

STIHL.2489:

penelopehannibal.8947:

STIHL.2489:

penelopehannibal.8947:

Everyone needs some build to win. What makes one build cheese and another one not?

I believe the OP outlined that, where they explained that these conditions had dual effects, which is what made them Cheesy in comparison to other Conditions.

I’m not asking the OP, I’m asking you what makes a build ‘cheese’ since it was you who said it!

If having more than one effect on a condition means it should be nerfed, then they should nerf might as well, because it increases both power and condition damage. Let it only increase condition damage. Would you like that?

With a name like “Might” it would make more sense thematically if it only affected power, with that put out, If you’re not dealing with what the OP said, then you’re just derailing the discussion.

Eh? Derailing the discussion? How? I was responding to a comment you said originally. You responded to BrotherBelial and not the OP, so does that mean you’re derailing the conversation too?

But if you’re not going to answer, then whatever. To me it just sounds like you’re saying “Build that works for me is a good build. Build that works for them is a cheese build” by responding in your way to BrotherBelial originally, and by not answering me questioning your reply to BrotherBelial. /shrug.

Ok, let’s recap, because honestly, I don’t understand where you got lost. This entire discussion is about two Conditions, Torment and Confusion ergo, it should have be painfully clear that any mention of cheese in this discussion, would be directed at those the two conditions confusion and torment and how they are utilized. So to make this clear, and say it for the sake of having said it, because it was outright demanded by you, that I say this, any discussion of builds in this topic, would mean builds that depend on the use of confusion and torment.

I do not understand why the confusion in your part in regards to this, or why you demanded from me to say that, but, just to provide it you again, so that there is no question in the future, in case you are wondering if this entire topic is about the conditions confusion and torment allow me this moment to hold your hand and say “this entire topic is about Confusion and Torment”

Now, I am not sure how we have come to this, or why your post is so confrontational, or why you feel the need to endlessly demand that I say on a topic about confusion and torment that any mention of builds, would be exclusive to builds that use or depend on confusion and torment. I would have thought, that it would have been self evident, but it seems I am wrong on that one.

At this point, I am not even sure why or how we ever got to this point, or what you hoped to accomplish by your demand, but, I have to ask… and no offence intended, but what answer did you expect on a discussion about confusion and torment? Quaggen Hats?

So A warrior has a cheese build if he uses torment and confusion. Thank for letting me know, seeing as the only way I can get confusion with my build is if I interrupt a skill, as for torment, my build of sword Torch and mace shield do not have access to it. seeing as I play warrior, and I survive 1 vs 1 or 2 vs 1 fight quite often, against mesmers and the like, they are fine. it’s a L2P issue and people need to get on with it.

Yup, total cheese, in case you were wondering, with that put out, if you have any confusions about if this topic is about confusion and torment, feel free to not torment me with them.

Lol, ok then I see you have no idea what your talking about. So you have no problem with being hit with any other condition, other than Confusion and/or torment. And anyone who uses them is using a cheese build.

You heard it here first folks, if we follow this guys thinking if a rev uses any weapon skill that inflicts torment he’s a cheeser, if a warrior have confusion traited and interrupts a skill, he is a cheeser.

As far as I can see, your inability to play is the problem. If you can’t learn when to use your damage mitigation skills to survive. Try a different class. The one you are playing is not working for you.

You insults and snide attitude aside, I have to ask, did you miss that this topic is about confusion and torment? I ask this, because you seem to be really be struggling with this concept that this topic is about solely about confusion and torment being cheap conditions and in need of adjustment … nothing else.

Now, I don’t know if you understand this either, but, If you are trying to change the direction of this discussion to be about anything else, that is directly against the forum policy.

Now, the problem here is not my ability to play, it seems to be your ability to stay on topic. You should work on that.

Nonsense, Taquito proved years ago that confusion / Perplexity runes are balanced and that’s still true kappa

https://youtu.be/umKuvv_d-4o

STIHL.2489:

BrotherBelial.3094:

STIHL.2489:

BrotherBelial.3094:

STIHL.2489:

penelopehannibal.8947:

STIHL.2489:

penelopehannibal.8947:

STIHL.2489:

penelopehannibal.8947:

Everyone needs some build to win. What makes one build cheese and another one not?

I believe the OP outlined that, where they explained that these conditions had dual effects, which is what made them Cheesy in comparison to other Conditions.

I’m not asking the OP, I’m asking you what makes a build ‘cheese’ since it was you who said it!

If having more than one effect on a condition means it should be nerfed, then they should nerf might as well, because it increases both power and condition damage. Let it only increase condition damage. Would you like that?

With a name like “Might” it would make more sense thematically if it only affected power, with that put out, If you’re not dealing with what the OP said, then you’re just derailing the discussion.

Eh? Derailing the discussion? How? I was responding to a comment you said originally. You responded to BrotherBelial and not the OP, so does that mean you’re derailing the conversation too?

But if you’re not going to answer, then whatever. To me it just sounds like you’re saying “Build that works for me is a good build. Build that works for them is a cheese build” by responding in your way to BrotherBelial originally, and by not answering me questioning your reply to BrotherBelial. /shrug.

Ok, let’s recap, because honestly, I don’t understand where you got lost. This entire discussion is about two Conditions, Torment and Confusion ergo, it should have be painfully clear that any mention of cheese in this discussion, would be directed at those the two conditions confusion and torment and how they are utilized. So to make this clear, and say it for the sake of having said it, because it was outright demanded by you, that I say this, any discussion of builds in this topic, would mean builds that depend on the use of confusion and torment.

I do not understand why the confusion in your part in regards to this, or why you demanded from me to say that, but, just to provide it you again, so that there is no question in the future, in case you are wondering if this entire topic is about the conditions confusion and torment allow me this moment to hold your hand and say “this entire topic is about Confusion and Torment”

Now, I am not sure how we have come to this, or why your post is so confrontational, or why you feel the need to endlessly demand that I say on a topic about confusion and torment that any mention of builds, would be exclusive to builds that use or depend on confusion and torment. I would have thought, that it would have been self evident, but it seems I am wrong on that one.

At this point, I am not even sure why or how we ever got to this point, or what you hoped to accomplish by your demand, but, I have to ask… and no offence intended, but what answer did you expect on a discussion about confusion and torment? Quaggen Hats?

So A warrior has a cheese build if he uses torment and confusion. Thank for letting me know, seeing as the only way I can get confusion with my build is if I interrupt a skill, as for torment, my build of sword Torch and mace shield do not have access to it. seeing as I play warrior, and I survive 1 vs 1 or 2 vs 1 fight quite often, against mesmers and the like, they are fine. it’s a L2P issue and people need to get on with it.

Yup, total cheese, in case you were wondering, with that put out, if you have any confusions about if this topic is about confusion and torment, feel free to not torment me with them.

Lol, ok then I see you have no idea what your talking about. So you have no problem with being hit with any other condition, other than Confusion and/or torment. And anyone who uses them is using a cheese build.

You heard it here first folks, if we follow this guys thinking if a rev uses any weapon skill that inflicts torment he’s a cheeser, if a warrior have confusion traited and interrupts a skill, he is a cheeser.

As far as I can see, your inability to play is the problem. If you can’t learn when to use your damage mitigation skills to survive. Try a different class. The one you are playing is not working for you.

You insults and snide attitude aside, I have to ask, did you miss that this topic is about confusion and torment? I ask this, because you seem to be really be struggling with this concept that this topic is about solely about confusion and torment being cheap conditions and in need of adjustment … nothing else.

Now, I don’t know if you understand this either, but, If you are trying to change the direction of this discussion to be about anything else, that is directly against the forum policy.

Now, the problem here is not my ability to play, it seems to be your ability to stay on topic. You should work on that.

No, no, no. I know it’s about those two. But you, yes you said that people who use said conditions are using cheese builds. My self and others have asked for clarification on what constitutes a cheese build. You have yet to answer. And as for people derailing, your post is also a good attempt, maybe take your own advice from time to time.

But anytime you want to tell us why a build that uses/has access to said conditions is a chees build I and others would love to know, seeing as some normal weapon skills have access to said conditions, are these weapons then considered OP? As you think said conditions are OP.

Personally I think the conditions passive effect of confusion is a good one… FOR PvE

It was placed to make confusion viable for PvE, as the mobs hit once every 3-10 seconds and you could try your hardest to stack 13 stack of confusion, but you would get no return whatsoever if you times it only a little bit off. This was due to the duration nerf the runes had before going from 45% to 30% duration, to allow them to be more usable in PvP.

In PvP perplexity runes have been removed (if I’m correct) leaving perplexity rtunes only for WvW now where they still find use on
Hammer CC builds of (partially condition) warriors, other melee CC builds,
Necro fear builds (perplexity, terror, chill, and bleeds?)
Interupt Thieves and
Interupt Mesmers.

Which are ALL roaming builds and used for 1vs1 or few vs few as they are USELESS in zergs.

I think perplexity could be reinstated in PvP but with the CONFUSION base effect of x DOT dmg p sec removed and only the CONFUSION spike remaining, which should be returned to it’s old UNNERFED form. it would be good cause it still is a interesting condition, and TBH with most builds running perplexity there is little room for condition management.

The shutdown part shows itself in PvE where most perplexity stacks will fade after 3-7 seconds, and your best option is to wait it out or clean it. In PvP the effect will be mre pronounced and the effects way more dangerous, though confusion should be survivable when “not taking any actions.”

As for torment , the condition is used to keep people fro running and just stnding to fight, you will not get toirment procs on doidge as far as I know so when stationary you should be good.as long as you can defend…

Also a thief trying to headshot can get perplexity procced on himself if you reflect ’m… which should be nice for auramancers, mesmers, guardians

Confusion & perplexity had 3 nerf rounds and the effect is nowhere as agressive as it once was.

1. perplexity was reduced by 15% duration
2. confusion itself was nerfed by 50% for PvP AND WvW
3. when the base lingering effect was introduced the SPIke was nerfed once again.

I think we should be good at this point.

5 confusions stacks proccing used to do 8k dmg at the start in PvP, WvW and PvE, now only 600-3.5k remain. Please do not say it’s impossible. also do not blame everything on perplexity runes.

Thief gets 5 stacks of confusion on stealing, mesmer gets 6 stacks on scepter 3 and loads & loads of stacks on shatters, warrior can get 4 stacks on any daze/stun (interupt even?)

As for torment. Torment is easily cleansed, or send back, torment should provide no real problems.

Thief: (viper)
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAsaVnsMBtNhdmCOmC0PhFZCTbPNFCAebhD1HaeDOCLhA-TxRFQBBb/h+p+T70HAgTBQDV+tvnAwIVCSKg7WWB-e

Mesmer
CONDI (2041 condition dmg, 3128 armor, 1606 vitality, 6% crit chance, 100% condi duration)
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQRArf7ansICVohNoB2oBcrhlXDycFDfElVo3BHNA5sJA-TxhbABldSAQb/BAUCKq6Pyq8jsnAgk6HIFwiKrA-e
HYBRID (2121 power, 1861 condi dmg, 32% crit, 100% condi duration)
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQRArf7ansICVohNoB2oBcrhlXDycFDfEoBInNpsC9O4A-Txh0wAE2fIwJBwsSQgq/A4JAAV5HM9DkCYRlVA-e

Warrior
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vJAQNApeSnMdA9kitdAmdAkigFiA7t4+cnuHPgGQQzIA8B7ZA-Txh0wAAeCAAV/BqyPfnCAzKBJs/AM9BkCwulVA-e

They are rough sketches, don’t run interupt warrior, but… it should give an idea.

Torment isn’t as problematic due if you have a ranged weapon and a fair amount of cleanses you still can deal with, specially if your ranged weapon has sigil of generosity.

Confussion on the other hand… Well, first must be explained that confussion as a concept is a monumental mistake: a damage source designed to prevent your foe to use any skills while inexorably dies. Could be acceptable if where a single tool to aply in mid to long cooldown or if stacks of confussion didn’t exist, but the game have some builds capable to spam it and stack up to 18-19 confussion, constantly. Any skill designed to perma-lock your foe in a unescapable chain of damage shouldn’t exist. Is just a bad game design. An example:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQNAW7ansIClphVoBOoBMrhlTDCdMJtLllo5RnMApIoA-TBCCABVcQAWR3DAXAggU/x59H4S5HjKBR/JAEAABgZOzhOzhO0SBsoyK-e

This Mesmer build is utterly broken; it does confuse you any time interrupts you, but is not only like has a few interrupts: due traits it also interrupts you with a passive proc the first time you hit him, it interrupts you any time you get dazed and also interrupts you any time it blinds you. Once is paired with Perplexity runes (3 stacks of confussion any time you get interrupted/dazed/blinded) and the sigil of Mieschief (you blind on weapon swap) plus a tank passive condition stats (Dire) it can beat 1 vs 1 every class and build in the game outside a tailored condi transfer necro.

A friend in the guild was using this one in the guild arena hall against my power Rev and I got demolished (which is fine due conditions are one of the weakness of that class), but then I swap to a meditrap guard full of cleanses and still got beated every time. Then He destroyed a fellow player which was using a Druid… Later our Mesmer player swiched to a Daredevil (His other main) and I defeated him 90% of the matches with my Rev.

So my thoughts are: this build is broken, it makes a bad players able to beat average ones and average players to beat good ones in rollstomp facerroll fashion. Of course doesn’t work in PvP due A) lack of Perplexity runes, lack of Dire stats and C) teamplay fights. Also doesn’t work very well in PvE due the slow pace of foe’s attacks and because is more a 1 vs 1 build.

And this is the fun part: due Anet refuses to balance the game diferently based on the parts (PvE, WvW and PvP) properly and instead just deletes any troublesome thing they find in PvP the rest of the game keeps evolved into a disjointed mesh. But is fine: isn’t likeI play WvW anymore anyway…