Guild Wars 2

…help me understand

lately I have been seeing comments like ‘condi is stale’ ‘condi meta forced’ ‘boring’ ‘requires no skills/gimmicky’ ‘11111111111’ ‘condi condi condi(Cooonnnndiii)’ ‘condi meta needs to change’ etc etc etc…

But… But it did.

From zerk.

you all asked for this
you all BEGGED for this
you all cried, frothed at the mouth, and whined for the death of Power, Precision, and Ferocity.

You got exactly what you wanted. To the letter.
Why are you upset?

No one wanted the death of zerker gear. People wanted/ want stat diversity.

If players find condition gameplay boring or not is a completely different matter.

the sheer number of threads created solely for the purposes of condemning zerk meta say different. One year ago this day, we had the SAME kind of threads, only replace condi with ‘zerk’.

forget my dramatic “death” comment, it’s still ‘wahhh, X meta is evil and must be changed’
BAM CHANGED

Seems to me like you (yall, generalisation) just like to hate whats “in”. Whis is okay, it truly is. …but like, you asked, anet delivered.

Just not in the way you would have liked

Come join us in PvE where we’re not nearly as obsessed with these things. It’s fun, I swear.

Emmibolt.3928:

…help me understand

lately I have been seeing comments like ‘condi is stale’ ‘condi meta forced’ ‘boring’ ‘requires no skills/gimmicky’ ‘11111111111’ ‘condi condi condi(Cooonnnndiii)’ ‘condi meta needs to change’ etc etc etc…

But… But it did.

From zerk.

you all asked for this
you all BEGGED for this
you all cried, frothed at the mouth, and whined for the death of Power, Precision, and Ferocity.

You got exactly what you wanted. To the letter.
Why are you upset?

Nobody asked for the condi meta to replace the zerker meta. Ppl asked for diversity between the play style and with this update they just went back in 2013 but now its just with condis.

dude you had to be blind not to see the 5+ new threads a DAY crying in one way shape or form about about berzerker meta. People were going out of their way to show rage and contempt over berzerker stats and all and any implications therein.

GOOD NEWS EVERYONE

Svennis.3852:

Come join us in PvE where we’re not nearly as obsessed with these things. It’s fun, I swear.

Oh I am mainly in pvp. Only reason i started this thread is because I looked at front page of forums and saw 7 anti-condi threads and was like…

“wait”
“this is familiar”

“I have seen this before!”

The anti zerk sentiment wasn’t about making it unviable, but rather, to make condi a credible alternative. The current sentiment is that they went too far. Instead of an alternative, it has become the new Zerker meta.

The argument sounds familiar because it is the same argument. It was never about anti zerk or anti condi. It’s about pro diversity. Just because some people saturate their argument in hyperbole doesn’t mean the main argument isn’t sound.

Pretty Pixie.8603:

The anti zerk sentiment wasn’t about making it unviable, but rather, to make condi a credible alternative. The current sentiment is that they went too far. Instead of an alternative, it has become the new Zerker meta.

The argument sounds familiar because it is the same argument. It was never about anti zerk or anti condi. It’s about pro diversity. Just because some people saturate their argument in hyperbole doesn’t mean the main argument isn’t sound.

True enough.
When will people learn. Anet is the living embodiment of “be careful what you wish for”

You are forgetting the entire reason there was a “zerk or gtfo” meta in the first place. It had nothing to do with diversity, it had nothing to do with anti-condition sentiment. The entire reason for a zerk meta was the poor implementation that condition damage originally had in this game.

During the early years of this game condition damage was 1) limited in stacks and 2) did not always scale with the appliers condition damage stat. If someone else put bleeding on the target and they had a low condition damage stat, when you applied your bleeding and your condition damage was maxed out you would still only tick at the condition damage of the original application.

This lead to the zerk meta since the bosses in pve are hit point sinks and any more than one condition using class became redundant and greatly slowed the overall progress of the dungeon, fractal, whatever. People desired the ability to finish the desired objective faster which is the same as to why you drive at or over the speed limit on the way home from work, you could drive at 1 mph and still make it home but why waste the time? Same thing was happening in dungeons, etc. At the time zerker gear was the highest damaging stat combination that was not influenced by anyone else except their application of vulnerability unlike condition damage so people advertised for “zerk only”

Anet listened to the feedback (and rightfully so) and proceeded to change the way condition damage worked in the game. They made condition damage have unlimited stacks (or virtually so) and made it so that each person’s condition damage was based on their condition damage stat in other words making condition damage viable in group based situations.

During the time since the change to the working of condition damage Anet has consisitantly reduced the damage output of power based (or zerk builds) and increased not only the damage but also the application rate of condition damage.

The overall problem and the reason for most of these complaint threads is that for every build type there should be a risk/reward in using that particular stat combination. Zerk always emphasized this in the fact that to get the most damage you had to forgo vitality and toughness to achieve the higher levels of damage. If you didn’t dodge right or postion yourself right you paid the price and were downed (hence the risk) while the reward was the quicker killing of the target.

With the introduction of new stat combinations over the time since the condition change Anet has continually lowered the risk in running a condition build thereby increasing the reward. Since the reward is increasing more people are gravitating to these condition builds.

In PvE it really makes no difference which type of build you run now days except for high level fractals and raids but in pvp and wvw there is a big difference in what build you run due to the increasing viability of condition builds and the fact that more and more people are using condition builds. You only have so many cleanses and the rate of condition application far outpaces these cleanses.

Both types of builds need to be viable but each one needs to have some risk/reward in using that particular build. Currently the risk/reward gap between the two types of builds greatly favors condition damage. Anet needs to figure out how to close that gap so that both types are closer in their risk/reward.

People just like to complain.

Welcome to forums though!

I just came back recently to play and this is a bit confusing to me too… I love playing GW2 because it let me break away from the “Class Trinity” and most Meta’s now its like chaos… with Raids and PvP… everyone has an opinion over how you should play to do the best…

So my question is: How does Anet decides when and how to put down the “Hammer” on content? Does the data to make changes comes from the need to balance PvP or PvE (Specially Raids)?

Because it’s just confusing, now it’s Condi this and Condi that… Right now I just refuse to submit myself to “ANY” Meta or whatever other rotations with specific weapons, “keyboard warrior master GW2 players” of the so many post out there… But If I don’t I basically can’t Pug any higher content without being kick, or bullied out of it because I don’t do said thing…Thank god for Mature Guilds…even Pro players that play this content don’t pug it unless most are guildies or friends! Just to make it clear I get that team effort is key in PvP and PvE… but RNGesus when does it stop, what the “trigger” that brings this nightfall of changes!? Has the freedom and options to play any class anyway you wanted, just suddenly disappeared from GW2 or is this the effects of Elites player influx slowly infiltrating GW over time?

Honestly, I just want to burn it (all metas) with fire and just have fun with everyone again not stress over the dps meter and all this techy stuff players talk about! KIll it all with all its eggs and breeds! KILL it all before it’s keeps spreading LOL! (Rant over sorry, its been to annoying lately)

DiogoSilva.7089:

No one wanted the death of zerker gear. People wanted/ want stat diversity.

If players find condition gameplay boring or not is a completely different matter.

I learn that if your build is not “meta” or has no meta heritage, Anet will do little to support your playstyle. I gave up making builds when I realize those issues.

The only way to support build diversity is to add more game modes. Different problems needs different solutions. The most optimal solution have a tendency to destroying all other solutions which mean that the only way to get another solution is to change the problem

Before the revamp, conditions were really uneffective as a damage source, some niches put aside. Everyone was still about “zerk zerk zerk”.

Now, conditions come to be really effective, but I’m not sure power builds aren’t viable anymore. In PvE, it doesn’t change much to have one or the other, and, given the few times I browsed metabattle or qtfy, I’m still seeing zerk+scholar runes as the most frequent suggestion.

In WvW, that’s another deal, for more reasons that’d be too long to disclose here, and maybe off topic a bit.

I’ve got two thoughts on this :

• Play what suits you. In most cases, you’ll be as affective with condis than with power. You may only take a little more time or skill to perform. You don’t need to enforce the new trendy build to have fun.
• The one and only true “meta” in GW2 is “just deal damage as fast as possible”. Any kind of sustain build is useless in vast parts of the game. Condi or power doesn’t really matter in the end of the day.

First of all, the current threads are overstating situation to the much greater degree than zerker panic then. Condi builds on average may be slightly better for many classes, but in no way is the difference as big as it was then.

Second, if you read carefully, you will see that those threads are mostly written by power-dps buils users that feel a bit threatened by the fact that the comparison between those two approaches is no longer as one-sided as it was before. In other words, they are written by people that were likely defending the zerker meta then.

Sooo, it’s like there were two different group of people complaining about two different things. Who would have thought something like that might happen.

Emmibolt.3928:

dude you had to be blind not to see the 5+ new threads a DAY crying in one way shape or form about about berzerker meta. People were going out of their way to show rage and contempt over berzerker stats and all and any implications therein.

GOOD NEWS EVERYONE

Dude you had to be blind not to see that what these ppl asked for was stat diversity and not having one stat type being supperior to the others. Kinda like what they did now with nerfing the power classes and not even touching the condi ones.

Emmibolt.3928:

You got exactly what you wanted. To the letter.

Nope.

It would appear that you are correct, in that you are confused.

Emmibolt.3928:

you all asked for this
you all BEGGED for this
you all cried, frothed at the mouth, and whined for the death of Power, Precision, and Ferocity.

You got exactly what you wanted. To the letter.
Why are you upset?

Because you are not my president.

I prefer power damage because it’s more hands on – the damage I do is dealt by the actions I am about to take, not because my aoe fields can cook up to 5 things with 9+ burnstacks. I’ve never liked cooking my meals; I like eating them fresh.

I won’t pretend my views are for everybody, but I DO object to how condi’s are flung around willy nilly on a rediculous scale while power is toted as the problem. As people have said above, people likely wanted stat diversity, not a full condi meta.

Emmibolt.3928:

…help me understand

lately I have been seeing comments like ‘condi is stale’ ‘condi meta forced’ ‘boring’ ‘requires no skills/gimmicky’ ‘11111111111’ ‘condi condi condi(Cooonnnndiii)’ ‘condi meta needs to change’ etc etc etc…

But… But it did.

From zerk.

you all asked for this
you all BEGGED for this
you all cried, frothed at the mouth, and whined for the death of Power, Precision, and Ferocity.

You got exactly what you wanted. To the letter.
Why are you upset?

Not true. Just try a new thread asking “What’s the best gear stats for <profession>?” You’ll get berserk from at least half the people, even if you specify “don’t tell me about berserker gear”. I know; I’ve done it.

TL:DR – Condi builds are easier to play, and give off a higher reward than Power builds currently and that is the problem.

Daddicus.6128:

Not true. Just try a new thread asking “What’s the best gear stats for <profession>?” You’ll get berserk from at least half the people, even if you specify “don’t tell me about berserker gear”. I know; I’ve done it.

That is more because it is easier to get Berserker gear and is the only real choice if you don’t have HoT.

Now concerning the problem with the condi specs. I personally have a problem because of the following:

1. Condi builds pull more damage with less effort. Crangers pull insane damage even if they screw up their rotation a ton. This is also shown when you look at the new condi ele, you pull amazing damage for a “spam stuff off cool down” build, meanwhile when you play power you get “pull of these 7356 steps to be 10% lower than that Cranger who spammed buttons.”
2. All power builds got a nerf because “seaweed salad was unhealthy.” Sorry Anet, but the shuffle required you to actually be able to do it in addition to your rotations (lots of people couldn’t pull the uptime in order to actually make it the better food), and condi food is even more over stat’d than SwS was. SwS was a max of a 10% buff in damage while pizza is ~13% and requires you to do nothing for it.
3. Power builds require you to be above 90% health in order to pull the most out of them while condi doesn’t have threshold on it.
4. Not all classes have a condi build. Guardians just need like 1 change to have a viable build but Anet refused to do it. Yes I know Firebrand is rumored to be a condi spec, but I should not have to buy/wait for an expansion in order to be brought up to par with other classes.
5. The problem with Zerker meta before was never the fact that it was condi is trash, it was because people wanted to play their healers, buffers, tanks, but the game was designed to be played with active defenses making toughness/vitality/healing power all trash. Yes condi was bad because of how it was built, but Anet shouldn’t have swung the pendulum so hard. The idea is to not punish something for how good it was in the past, but to make it so both are usable.

Azoqu.8917:

1. Condi builds pull more damage with less effort. Crangers pull insane damage even if they screw up their rotation a ton. This is also shown when you look at the new condi ele, you pull amazing damage for a “spam stuff off cool down” build, meanwhile when you play power you get “pull of these 7356 steps to be 10% lower than that Cranger who spammed buttons.”

I mostly agree with that one. I’d add that once conditions are up, it’s possible to kite and doge a bit, so it provides more flexibility than a flawless rotation.

Azoqu.8917:

1. Power builds require you to be above 90% health in order to pull the most out of them while condi doesn’t have threshold on it.

So you’re running scholar runes… This is what amazes me the most. Power build = glass canon zerk+scholar in everyone’s mind. You know that running a, say, knight+cavalier would still be a power build ? With only more sustain.
I know, in GW2 non-raid PvE, sustain means nothing because of the insane smashes any mob can deal, that demands fights to be terminated the quickiest. But in other game modes, sustain matters.
Unless of course you’re asking to be able to clear any enemy with your 3 sec opening burst rotation. In which case, please refrain yourself from saying anything is OP.

Azoqu.8917:

1. The problem with Zerker meta before was never the fact that it was condi is trash, it was because people wanted to play their healers, buffers, tanks, but the game was designed to be played with active defenses making toughness/vitality/healing power all trash. Yes condi was bad because of how it was built, but Anet shouldn’t have swung the pendulum so hard. The idea is to not punish something for how good it was in the past, but to make it so both are usable.

I’m honestly not sure power builds are “punished”. Maybe berserker ? I haven’t tried it, but even if I play it, I admit that stunlock burst rotation was OP.
Likewise, I don’t think power builds aren’t usable at all now. Maybe conditions are doing better in some cases, but power builds don’t seem to be a total crap now. Of course, it depends the game mode and the encounters…

Astralporing.1957:

First of all, the current threads are overstating situation to the much greater degree than zerker panic then. Condi builds on average may be slightly better for many classes, but in no way is the difference as big as it was then.

Second, if you read carefully, you will see that those threads are mostly written by power-dps buils users that feel a bit threatened by the fact that the comparison between those two approaches is no longer as one-sided as it was before. In other words, they are written by people that were likely defending the zerker meta then.

Sooo, it’s like there were two different group of people complaining about two different things. Who would have thought something like that might happen.

The amount of people who put all their stock into test dummies is baffling.

I think it’s more the fact that, condi is a heavy burst and damage over time, where berserk is just a heavy burst. Plus you can sacrifice a little condi for some defence and still hit harder than a berserk. Which is mostly anets fault for not balancing bursts and damage over time.

Condi will still need some ramp up… even with high burst condi , you cannot do without it…

Cleaning condi’s is easy… light field and blast, or whirl or projectlie?
Or utilty condi cleanses? Condi mitigation food. Mitigation through trinkets, or runes or sigils?

Conditions do make META more difficult… cause META is not about clansing and negating, it’s about the timed dodge and the fast DPS and it cannot stay afloat in heavy conditions..

It is however a good way to break both max dps and MAX condi builds… and get a usage for a large part of the game, passed by by the Meta, not seen worthy of attention.

Condi’s are fine. DPS is fine, but the other side exists…

Svennis.3852:

Come join us in PvE where we’re not nearly as obsessed with these things. It’s fun, I swear.

Actually, the complain started from pve.

Azoqu.8917:

Daddicus.6128:

Not true. Just try a new thread asking “What’s the best gear stats for <profession>?” You’ll get berserk from at least half the people, even if you specify “don’t tell me about berserker gear”. I know; I’ve done it.

That is more because it is easier to get Berserker gear and is the only real choice if you don’t have HoT.

See what I mean?

Emmibolt.3928:

When will people learn. Anet is the living embodiment of “be careful what you wish for”

This.

This so much.

Community: “We want capes.”

Anet: “Okay.” Puts capes on Black Lion weapon skins

Community: “Not like this.”

Anet: “You didn’t say how you wanted the capes.”

It does provide for a fair bit of amusement though. :’)

Emmibolt.3928:

you all asked for this

No I didn’t. Also I don’t mind condi being a viable alternative. I mind mindless builds being the top dps specs.

SkyShroud.2865:

Svennis.3852:

Come join us in PvE where we’re not nearly as obsessed with these things. It’s fun, I swear.

Actually, the complain started from pve.

That’s a weird way to spell WvW =P

ThomasC.1056:

Before the revamp, conditions were really uneffective as a damage source, some niches put aside. Everyone was still about “zerk zerk zerk”.

Now, conditions come to be really effective, but I’m not sure power builds aren’t viable anymore. In PvE, it doesn’t change much to have one or the other, and, given the few times I browsed metabattle or qtfy, I’m still seeing zerk+scholar runes as the most frequent suggestion.

In WvW, that’s another deal, for more reasons that’d be too long to disclose here, and maybe off topic a bit.

I’ve got two thoughts on this :

• Play what suits you. In most cases, you’ll be as affective with condis than with power. You may only take a little more time or skill to perform. You don’t need to enforce the new trendy build to have fun.
• The one and only true “meta” in GW2 is “just deal damage as fast as possible”. Any kind of sustain build is useless in vast parts of the game. Condi or power doesn’t really matter in the end of the day.

Before the update condi was the utility of the game and utility for power dmg attks. Now its both the utility for the game and the main dmg for the game.

Its also a big cause to the lags in wvw maybe even pve. Condi dmg keeps getting updated so its like having many more players attk the same target for each condi type and condi from players going off at the same time. So an ele who doing burn / bleed is doing there attk power dmg the current tick of there burning and the current tick of there bleed. The ele data becomes 3 fold.

For me they didn’t go far enough they sort of half did the job. Sure they removed the burst meta but they didn’t follow any of the examples we gave for improving the condi meta in fact they simply deleted the entire suggestions folder and didn’t save any of it months and months of posts about how to improve it.

Emmibolt.3928:

…help me understand

lately I have been seeing comments like ‘condi is stale’ ‘condi meta forced’ ‘boring’ ‘requires no skills/gimmicky’ ‘11111111111’ ‘condi condi condi(Cooonnnndiii)’ ‘condi meta needs to change’ etc etc etc…

But… But it did.

From zerk.

you all asked for this
you all BEGGED for this
you all cried, frothed at the mouth, and whined for the death of Power, Precision, and Ferocity.

You got exactly what you wanted. To the letter.
Why are you upset?

Plus he gearing aspect.

The ONLY viable Condition Stat combination is Viper. The ONLY one. With Zerk it was the same, but since Viper sets are HoT’s, that means you can’t just find them anywhere, buy them off the TP or Karma: You must craft them (and they are highly expensive), find them as ascended gear (and don’t go saying converting is cheap, for players who didn’t level crafting before it’s gonna be one hell of a ride anyways) OR make incredibly weird stuff like finishing HoT story on 3 characters, then farming map achievements for the rest…

So, it’s not only better than zerk, it’s also way more inaccessible to the general population.

Aldath.1275:

Plus he gearing aspect.

The ONLY viable Condition Stat combination is Viper. The ONLY one. With Zerk it was the same, but since Viper sets are HoT’s, that means you can’t just find them anywhere, buy them off the TP or Karma: You must craft them (and they are highly expensive), find them as ascended gear (and don’t go saying converting is cheap, for players who didn’t level crafting before it’s gonna be one hell of a ride anyways) OR make incredibly weird stuff like finishing HoT story on 3 characters, then farming map achievements for the rest…

So, it’s not only better than zerk, it’s also way more inaccessible to the general population.

You are mistaken regarding Viper being the only viable condi stat combo. Did you mean optimal or something of the sort rather than viable?

Rashagar.8349:

SkyShroud.2865:

Svennis.3852:

Come join us in PvE where we’re not nearly as obsessed with these things. It’s fun, I swear.

Actually, the complain started from pve.

That’s a weird way to spell WvW =P

No, really. My complaints are strictly PvE based.

People simply love to complain. They will always complain and about pretty much anything in this game.

This current balance is what you get when people refuse to see the difference between DPS and burst, when they refuse to see a point in more complex rotations providing higher numbers, when they refuse to understand DPS uptime, when they insist on their class being the best choice for everything and many other factors.

your Build will define your stats…

So it’s not just:

Pure max DPS?
- Berserker
Pure max Condi+DPS?
- Viper
Pure max healing?
- Magi

This is valid only for PvE. Only for that limited meta scope…
cause people will pass by WvW meta, PvP meta, and other options cause they foirget about other options ingame

But it is wider if you check it well:
Need DPS?
- zerk or assassin
need DPS and durabiliy?
- commander, soldiers, marauder
need healing?
- magi
need healing and dps?
- zealot
need healing and toughness?
- Minstrel
need healing toughness and power?
- Clerics
need condi?
- Viper’s, sinister, rampager, carrion
need condi and toughness?
- Trailblazer
Need Everything??
- Celestial…
Need boon duration?
Commander’s
Need Boon duration and toughness?
Minstrel..

All have uses. All have places. All provide options..

True in theory, but in practice all those uses and places are not equal.

Astralporing.1957:

True in theory, but in practice all those uses and places are not equal.

Equal doesn’t mean a thing… Of course a ministrel build does not “equal” a marauder build, because it doesn’t serve the same purpose.

Which shows that the issue may not be conditions or gears, but “Does GW2 provide such varied gameplay that all those uses can be relevant, and a player can have fun fulfilling the purpose he decided for himself ?”

Honestly, I’m truly not sure about that, because that requires organized teamwork and coordination. So it could work in instancied content, or with guilds activities including sPvP or even WvW. For the average casual PvE-er, the only purpose is to stack damage (direct or condi doesn’t matter so much). There’s some improvement though… I hope that the recent focus on healing stats is a sign the next X-Pac will allow for more roles to become enjoyable and fulfilling.

Henry.5713:

People simply love to complain. They will always complain and about pretty much anything in this game.

This current balance is what you get when people refuse to see the difference between DPS and burst, when they refuse to see a point in more complex rotations providing higher numbers, when they refuse to understand DPS uptime, when they insist on their class being the best choice for everything and many other factors.

Its much more then simple complain at this point this is a death dealer for the game of gw2 to push to condi dmg base for all game types. If spvp wvw and pve (open and raids) go over to condi only the game is effectively over.

Condi has the best food best gear best sigils best utility and for the most part the “best” skills. Power has fallen behind nearly at all points of the game.

The problem behind condi is a few things mostly that it makes a passive game. It lets players spam that one skill and get the most out of it. It dumb downs rotation for most classes to the point of bot viable level. It a great deal more taxing to ppl pc and gw2 servers causing more and more lag. It comply destroys any thoughts of build divisively.

There are other games coming out “soon” and condis are going to push ppl from playing gw2. There going to be a major mass movement soon if Anet dose not do something about this. You can say its all fine all you want but its not going to stop what real going to happen here.

Jski.6180:

Henry.5713:

People simply love to complain. They will always complain and about pretty much anything in this game.

This current balance is what you get when people refuse to see the difference between DPS and burst, when they refuse to see a point in more complex rotations providing higher numbers, when they refuse to understand DPS uptime, when they insist on their class being the best choice for everything and many other factors.

Its much more then simple complain at this point this is a death dealer for the game of gw2 to push to condi dmg base for all game types. If spvp wvw and pve (open and raids) go over to condi only the game is effectively over.

Condi has the best food best gear best sigils best utility and for the most part the “best” skills. Power has fallen behind nearly at all points of the game.

The problem behind condi is a few things mostly that it makes a passive game. It lets players spam that one skill and get the most out of it. It dumb downs rotation for most classes to the point of bot viable level. It a great deal more taxing to ppl pc and gw2 servers causing more and more lag. It comply destroys any thoughts of build divisively.

There are other games coming out “soon” and condis are going to push ppl from playing gw2. There going to be a major mass movement soon if Anet dose not do something about this. You can say its all fine all you want but its not going to stop what real going to happen here.

“Condi has the best food best gear best sigils best utility and for the most part the “best” skills. Power has fallen behind nearly at all points of the game."

Well condi can be countered… hardcountered and softcountered, as opposed to DPS

Meta builds do not bring

• condi cleanses,
• resistance,
• trooper runes,
• generosity and purity sigils sigils
• condition duration removal food (sweet bean buns anyone?)
• condition duration removal runes (melandru? hoelbrak, antitoxin…. it was a thing in WvW?)
• plague signet and condition transference (necro’s?)
• light fields and blast, whirl and projectiles?
  and
• => CONDITION CLEANSE SKILLS <=

_Until we are at a point where you need to bring all this in your meta build I do not think ppl have any right to say condi’s are stronger. _

People do not want to invest in countering conditions, so:
Please do not start about them being overpowered if you do NOTHING to avoid them.

Being a former player of a Shout Heal cleaning Warrior with Warhorn trait and sigil of purity on a clerics set with trooper runes…. No conditions… conditions will be a minor hindrance.

Warrior (for example) can carry 4 shouts (single or double AOE cleanses (single w heal, double without)) and a res banner; warhorn are 2 times double cleanses auto has 60% chance of cleaning self…. of the 4 shouts 1 is a condition cleanse itself cleaning 2 base so it can be used to AOE cleanse 3 conditions.

SO

• Autoattack with purity 1 cleanse 60% on hit 10s CD
• 3 shouts cleansing 1 or 2 conditions on 20-30 s (AoE)
• 1 condi cleanse shout cleansing 3 or 4 conditions on 20s (AoE)
• 2 warhorn uses cleaning 2 conditions on 12s and 16s (AoE)

Now try trooper runes on your ranger, guardian, elementalist, necro…. and there you go AoE condi cleanse. Lightfields are available through gurardians and necro’s… at least…

Condi reducing food or condi removing food:

• 20% reduced condition duration, +70 vitality
• remove a condition on heal
• 20% reduced condition duration, 20% reduced stun duration
• 20% reduced incoming condition duration ,15% outgoing duration
• 10% dmg reduction , 5% condition dmg reduction

Just theory craft. and you’ll be destroying a condition user’s options in AoE even and I’d say you can hold for quite some time vs any condi build…

For a dmg build you could look into:
Cleanses,
Rune of Hoelbrak
Loaf of Saffron Bread

for a 40% reduction and -20% stun duration…

I do agree reduction food should be calculated over the total duration IMHO to balance it a bit (so vs a 200% condi duration build It should remove 40% of the full duration leaving 120%).

I expect a lot of enemies to start using condi reflects and serious condi’s themselves…
I do not mean the 1-2 bleed dangers I mean flurry enemies, so they resemble mai trin, Necro’s with plaguelands and Sc/D… Condi ele’s, condi thieves, better grenade engi’s… PU condi mesmers…

And we will have no other choice then to run condi cleanses and focus on self or group cleansing… And the META will adapt. that’s why it’s meta.

Jski.6180:

The problem behind condi is a few things mostly that it makes a passive game. It lets players spam that one skill and get the most out of it. It dumb downs rotation for most classes to the point of bot viable level. It a great deal more taxing to ppl pc and gw2 servers causing more and more lag. It comply destroys any thoughts of build divisively.

Say, how exactly is using skill X to deal Y damage different for condi than for power again? You even dodge it to avoid the damage.

Carighan.6758:

Jski.6180:

The problem behind condi is a few things mostly that it makes a passive game. It lets players spam that one skill and get the most out of it. It dumb downs rotation for most classes to the point of bot viable level. It a great deal more taxing to ppl pc and gw2 servers causing more and more lag. It comply destroys any thoughts of build divisively.

Say, how exactly is using skill X to deal Y damage different for condi than for power again? You even dodge it to avoid the damage.

Condi keep calculating your condi dmg and duration every tick so once applied to a target its as if your making another use doing an attk. It becomes worst if you doing different types of condis. If your attking with a skill to do y dmg as you put it that the end of it right there. What i am saying condis are causing lag.

@ PaxTheGreatOne.9472
Condi duration has no equal for power dmg. That along of gear sigil runes and food makes it much better then any thing power dmg could get.

I am not sure if you can clear as a counter then say an effect that is a clear as another point any way clears are on much longer cd then condi application that and the way the web works as in ping you never can get a perfic clear out side of auto clears so i would not call that a hard counter.

Duration -% is not dmg -% taking from condi dmg (duration -% tends to be a conter to soft cc not the dmg) and there realty not much general condi dmg -% out side of some clases who have it.

Pretty Pixie.8603:

The anti zerk sentiment wasn’t about making it unviable, but rather, to make condi a credible alternative. The current sentiment is that they went too far. Instead of an alternative, it has become the new Zerker meta.

The argument sounds familiar because it is the same argument. It was never about anti zerk or anti condi. It’s about pro diversity. Just because some people saturate their argument in hyperbole doesn’t mean the main argument isn’t sound.

What everyone crying failed to understand was that condi already was a viable alternative in PvE. Prior to HoT when conditions started getting totally out of control, there weren’t even raids. The notions of the “zerk meta” only existed in PvE dungeoning (condi was still dominant in WvW even then because stat-wise the sets are and have been mathematically stronger than power on a number of builds/classes). And the “zerk meta” only existed because it was part of the “optimal” clear speed in high-end speed-clear groups. People just copy-pasted what “pros” did because they either lacked the understanding the content could be done nearly as quickly and more consistently with any other gear setup, or simply got so bored of the same dungeons that they wanted to optimize their time to not spend as much time doing chores to grind gold.

The entire push for “fixing” the “zerk meta” is unfounded and baseless, and ANet’s decision-making towards attempting to resolve this in the name of Raids is equally irresponsible in terms of handling its game.

In most dungeon runs, players would never see the difference between Berserker and condition-based gear. It seriously came largely down to how players understood the content the traits they picked.

There will ALWAYS be an optimum. There never won’t be. Period. No game is or ever will be perfectly balanced to that level where two massively different approaches and formulae work in terms of a constant of time (which is based on many other factors, too) yield identical results. Speed clear groups will push hard for .01 seconds of increased efficiency. It’s that same pursuit that leads to metas to begin with.

As feared, buffing condition builds without major changes to gear stats and the builds themselves has completely demolished almost all integrity of PvP in the game. No matter what happens, there will be community-set PvE metas.

WvW is just doubly-kittened for having PvE balance, which is kind of ironic, because two years ago, it had the most diversity of all the formats because it had PvE balance which enabled way more builds than before.

ANet’s entire handling of professions, skills, gear, and so on are a sad joke at this point. It’s one of the worst mishaps of a triple-A western-made game title I’ve ever seen. The sPvP and WvW communities alike recognize there is no future in this company for those styles of play as it is, and despite GW2 being an amazing game, the combat is so borked right now almost everything on the market in regards to PvP is more enjoyable.

DeceiverX.8361:

What everyone crying failed to understand was that condi already was a viable alternative in PvE. Prior to HoT when conditions started getting totally out of control, there weren’t even raids

Prior to the specialization patch that also revamped the way conditions worked, conditions weren’t viable at all. No, that’s an understatement, the game actually punished you for using them because of the way multiple sources interfered with each other.

Jski.6180:

@ PaxTheGreatOne.9472
Condi duration has no equal for power dmg. That along of gear sigil runes and food makes it much better then any thing power dmg could get.

Incidentally, Ferocity similarily does nothing for condi damage.

Jski.6180:

Duration -% is not dmg -% taking from condi dmg (duration -% tends to be a conter to soft cc not the dmg)

You really have no idea how condi works… if you cut the condi duration by half, you cut the total damage from every condi skill by half. If you cut the condi duration, you make it harder to achieve higher condi stack numbers, and thus decrease the condi pulse damage. People don’t take viper gear over sinister for cc applications. They do it for damage.

Jski.6180:

and there realty not much general condi dmg -% out side of some clases who have it.

As mentioned above, decreasing condi duration does enough of a fine job, and there’s quite a lot of options for that, if you just want to use them. And if you don’t use them, then you should not complain.

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

Well condi can be countered… hardcountered and softcountered, as opposed to DPS

Meta builds do not bring

• condi cleanses,
• resistance,
• trooper runes,
• generosity and purity sigils sigils
• condition duration removal food (sweet bean buns anyone?)
• condition duration removal runes (melandru? hoelbrak, antitoxin…. it was a thing in WvW?)
• plague signet and condition transference (necro’s?)
• light fields and blast, whirl and projectiles?
  and
• => CONDITION CLEANSE SKILLS <=

Too bad raid bosses do not use these much.

Bunter.3795:

You are forgetting the entire reason there was a “zerk or gtfo” meta in the first place. It had nothing to do with diversity, it had nothing to do with anti-condition sentiment. The entire reason for a zerk meta was the poor implementation that condition damage originally had in this game.

During the early years of this game condition damage was 1) limited in stacks and 2) did not always scale with the appliers condition damage stat. If someone else put bleeding on the target and they had a low condition damage stat, when you applied your bleeding and your condition damage was maxed out you would still only tick at the condition damage of the original application.

This lead to the zerk meta since the bosses in pve are hit point sinks and any more than one condition using class became redundant and greatly slowed the overall progress of the dungeon, fractal, whatever. People desired the ability to finish the desired objective faster which is the same as to why you drive at or over the speed limit on the way home from work, you could drive at 1 mph and still make it home but why waste the time? Same thing was happening in dungeons, etc. At the time zerker gear was the highest damaging stat combination that was not influenced by anyone else except their application of vulnerability unlike condition damage so people advertised for “zerk only”

Anet listened to the feedback (and rightfully so) and proceeded to change the way condition damage worked in the game. They made condition damage have unlimited stacks (or virtually so) and made it so that each person’s condition damage was based on their condition damage stat in other words making condition damage viable in group based situations.

During the time since the change to the working of condition damage Anet has consisitantly reduced the damage output of power based (or zerk builds) and increased not only the damage but also the application rate of condition damage.

The overall problem and the reason for most of these complaint threads is that for every build type there should be a risk/reward in using that particular stat combination. Zerk always emphasized this in the fact that to get the most damage you had to forgo vitality and toughness to achieve the higher levels of damage. If you didn’t dodge right or postion yourself right you paid the price and were downed (hence the risk) while the reward was the quicker killing of the target.

With the introduction of new stat combinations over the time since the condition change Anet has continually lowered the risk in running a condition build thereby increasing the reward. Since the reward is increasing more people are gravitating to these condition builds.

In PvE it really makes no difference which type of build you run now days except for high level fractals and raids but in pvp and wvw there is a big difference in what build you run due to the increasing viability of condition builds and the fact that more and more people are using condition builds. You only have so many cleanses and the rate of condition application far outpaces these cleanses.

Both types of builds need to be viable but each one needs to have some risk/reward in using that particular build. Currently the risk/reward gap between the two types of builds greatly favors condition damage. Anet needs to figure out how to close that gap so that both types are closer in their risk/reward.

Good Summary. I’d also like to add how damage is applied in both Zerk and Condi. In Zerk, most of the high damage skills, with a few exceptions, are applied in close range. In Condi, most of the damage is applied from range and worse, most of the AoE is condi.

This fosters a different play style for condi where you can safely bomb from a distance and run around like a chicken with your head cut off letting your dots do their work. In most cases, you don’t even need to target your opponent as you can just Aoe large areas and it will usually hit. Whereas in Zerk, you have to actively engage your target consistently to do damage.

When you take this ‘feature’ with the mechanisms Bunter described where condi does not need to sacrifice survivability for max damage like Zerk has too, you end up with a very lazy play style. Low Risk, High Reward = Condi. High Risk, High Reward=Zerk.

And human nature has folks gravitating to the Highest reward with the least amount of risk. Hence the lazy condi world we now live in.

mulzi.8273:

Bunter.3795:

-Snip-

Good Summary. I’d also like to add how damage is applied in both Zerk and Condi. In Zerk, most of the high damage skills, with a few exceptions, are applied in close range. In Condi, most of the damage is applied from range and worse, most of the AoE is condi.

This fosters a different play style for condi where you can safely bomb from a distance and run around like a chicken with your head cut off letting your dots do their work. In most cases, you don’t even need to target your opponent as you can just Aoe large areas and it will usually hit. Whereas in Zerk, you have to actively engage your target consistently to do damage.

When you take this ‘feature’ with the mechanisms Bunter described where condi does not need to sacrifice survivability for max damage like Zerk has too, you end up with a very lazy play style. Low Risk, High Reward = Condi. High Risk, High Reward=Zerk.

And human nature has folks gravitating to the Highest reward with the least amount of risk. Hence the lazy condi world we now live in.

I agree with both these answers, which leads to me to the conclusion that condition damage is actually in a good place. The issue is more that power damage is underperforming, hence the need to rely on heavy DPS, food, buffs, bursts, and stunlocks.

I also agree with :

Well condi can be countered… hardcountered and softcountered, as opposed to DPS

Meta builds do not bring

• condi cleanses,
• resistance,
• trooper runes,
• generosity and purity sigils sigils
• condition duration removal food (sweet bean buns anyone?)
• condition duration removal runes (melandru? hoelbrak, antitoxin…. it was a thing in WvW?)
• plague signet and condition transference (necro’s?)
• light fields and blast, whirl and projectiles?
  and
• => CONDITION CLEANSE SKILLS <=

All of this is also true, but why don’t players use them ? Why don’t players use knight, cavalier, sentinel or cleric’s stats ? My answer is : players are looking for max damage output in the shortest amount of time (highest possible DPS). Some possible explanations :

• Players are lazy jotuns that can be bothered to handle a fight longer than 4 seconds.
• The general fight system doesn’t provide interesting fights, hence a wish to close them as fast as possible.
• The risk of having a long-lasting fight is too high to be affordable.

Or it’s a mix of all this.

Anyway, I’m still wondering : let’s take for granted that it’s now impossible to burst a prepared opponent down in one rotation, and that current glassy burst builds are now non-viable excerpt for some hardcore people. The logical consequence would be power damage would have to shift towards less bursty more bunky stats. Would that actually be such a bad thing ? From a PvP point of view, I’m honestly not sure of it. From a PvE point of view, as long as encounters will be swarm of mobs smashing like giants with an insane HP pool, it may be troublesome.

Emmibolt.3928:

…help me understand

lately I have been seeing comments like ‘condi is stale’ ‘condi meta forced’ ‘boring’ ‘requires no skills/gimmicky’ ‘11111111111’ ‘condi condi condi(Cooonnnndiii)’ ‘condi meta needs to change’ etc etc etc…

But… But it did.

From zerk.

you all asked for this
you all BEGGED for this
you all cried, frothed at the mouth, and whined for the death of Power, Precision, and Ferocity.

You got exactly what you wanted. To the letter.
Why are you upset?

I didn’t?

Feanor.2358:

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

Well condi can be countered… hardcountered and softcountered, as opposed to DPS

Meta builds do not bring

• condi cleanses,
• resistance,
• trooper runes,
• generosity and purity sigils sigils
• condition duration removal food (sweet bean buns anyone?)
• condition duration removal runes (melandru? hoelbrak, antitoxin…. it was a thing in WvW?)
• plague signet and condition transference (necro’s?)
• light fields and blast, whirl and projectiles?
  and
• => CONDITION CLEANSE SKILLS <=

Too bad raid bosses do not use these much.

Ever heard of Xera and Sloth?
Sloth cleares ALL conditions every 20%.
Xera converts conditions to boons while standing in the AoE of her bloodstone shards.
You can prevent Xera from doing so, but the fact stands: She can remove all conditions. While she is standing in the range of a shard she is basically immune to conditions.