Guild Wars 2

Catching forum bugs…

The whole problem wasn’t entirely on the “Condi vs Power”, but rather the implemented hole on the old “Risk vs Efficiency” balance.

Back in the pre-HoT days, the pursuit for triple damage stats (Power/Precision/Ferocity) sacrifices sustainability, therefore in the face of more challenging/tougher bosses, players will be required to re-think their stats and swap for more sustain in order to pass a certain situation.

With the introduction of Trailblazer and multiple buffs to condi skills, you can now output nearly same damage efficiency as a Berserker power class with the nearly highest numbers for vitality and toughness. Having a trailblazer condi Tempest, I can simply stay in one attunement, face tank damaging mechanics, and swiftly kill everything in lvl 80 map and living stories, this is simply not fun.

Furthermore, since condi build require 100% duration to maximize efficiency in PvE, Raids now require player to have full acended gear, apply even more expensive utility and food for entry. The whole environment is becoming more hostile to players who has limited resources, thus limits access to several game contents only to rich players.

So essentially, one boss out of 13 will clear condis 4 times a week and another one will convert them if you mess the fight badly. Great incentive to go power, huh? Especially compare the ele condi and power builds. One of them is way easier to play, can supply your subsquad with might and fury and has higher damage. Guess which one is it.

There are bosses with low armor or short burn phases that make power more effective than condi for the fight. You just asked for bosses clearing conditions.

Vilin.8056:

With the introduction of Trailblazer and multiple buffs to condi skills, you can now output nearly same damage efficiency as a Berserker power class with the nearly highest numbers for vitality and toughness.

That’s not true. Any comparisons to that effect actually use viper damage output.

Tornupto.2304:

There are bosses with low armor or short burn phases that make power more effective than condi for the fight. You just asked for bosses clearing conditions.

It was because somebody mentioned how many ways to deal with condi there are, I guess in an attempt to justify condi damage superiority. But aside from that, you probably only have a real edge with a power ele over a condi one at KC. Anywhere else the condi build is just so much simpler and reliable so you most likely will perform at least comparable to the sc/w or staff. Very likely on par. Likely better.

Astralporing.1957:

Incidentally, Ferocity similarily does nothing for condi damage.

You really have no idea how condi works… if you cut the condi duration by half, you cut the total damage from every condi skill by half. If you cut the condi duration, you make it harder to achieve higher condi stack numbers, and thus decrease the condi pulse damage. People don’t take viper gear over sinister for cc applications. They do it for damage.

As mentioned above, decreasing condi duration does enough of a fine job, and there’s quite a lot of options for that, if you just want to use them. And if you don’t use them, then you should not complain.

Ferocity is not close to the same becuse its a trigger effect off of crits. As in if you do not crit it dose nothing for you. Condi duration effects both the over all max dmg of a condi and the duration of soft cc. If ferocity effected say armor pin (something not in the game) or say stun duration you may have a point but it dose not ferocity only effect crit dmg when you crit. Condi duration effects dmg and total duration of soft cc.

Total dmg is very different from burst dmg. When you have a game like GW2 with every class having some type of heal on some level contestant dmg becomes weaker. The real dmg is burst dmg. A high tick of condis though stacking IS a burst dmg effect. It becomes worst when you have more then one type of condi. A duration – only going to stop that max dmg but that rarely going to happen or as a player you could apply one stack of condi dmg and simply walk away because its very easy to get duration much higher then any duration – in the game.

Condi is the utility for most power attks at least that how it was when the game first came out. Only 2 main condis where pure dmg burning and bleeds (burning was the very static dmg and bleeds the stacking condis) confusion was the punish condi poison was the anty heal and that was it. Torment was added in as a mean of counter to moment but it simply replaced bleeding. Once they added stacks for burning and poison you took mostly utility effects for attks and made them into there own dmg. So now you have added effect from attks become the only reason to do the attks.

Right now condi is the only important dmg in GW2. It has its own build in counter system, it has max share effects, and it even has combo that help out other effects. Anet has tried to fix this by making classes have more heals and stronger boons but its making the game into more of a have / have not for class comp. Its simply patching over a problem by making GW2 into something that it just not a class requirement build requirement benchmark game.

tl; dr version: Build diversity options has been increasing over time but could still use more attention.

As far as power versus condi, to me it should always be that power is quicker more upfront burst but condi should be more damage over time. Condi being slower to build but a heavier hitter over the duration. That also allows the players to create mix builds that have elements of both.

The same could be said about range versus melee, since range requires less risk it should produce less damage than those abilities that require the player to be closer to its target. Risk versus reward.

More defense already means less damage and we shouldn’t end up with builds that are both the most damage and defensive else something has gone wrong. ANet has been targeting that over time so its less of an issue.

Play both condi and power builds among alts on all classes, not sure I could define meta since I play builds that I experiment with all the time. At the same times changes should be considered across all three game types since some complaints come from one or another and then end up impacting the others.

OP is right there were threads all over the place about alternatives to zerk meta. In damage output condi is now up there with zerk. In PvP/WvW there are a lot of people that don’t want to spec to defend against condi since their defense against zerk was counter zerk and now they have to adjust. People don’t do well with adjusting in general which causes a lot of complaints. If there was zero reason to use defensive only abilities though then those should be replaced.

That still does not address the issue about diversity that was also in those threads. That won’t change in PvE until more boss logic is changed to target the weakest target. If you think about it, in a PvP environment you don’t hit the target that is taking the least damage (hopefully) but instead target something that drops faster. Since traditional trinity is still not the end goal there will not be a need for more gear diversity until the AI also follows logic that players do when choosing targets. Until defensive attributes play a bigger role you will not see changes in which gear is consider more desirable.

In PvP and WvW players spec more defensive gear based on the environment they are playing in. Would love to see stats from ANet but my beat is that the most gear diversity shows up in WvW, followed by PvP and then PvE.

Now that said we have seen over time a bigger role for CC with the introduction of break bars and that has filtered over to PvP and WvW with the additional changes to stability. In PvE that to me was a rather good change and made encounters more diverse and created more reasons to use skills that might not have been up to par compared to others. In WvW that was mixed since it changed it from a melee focused combat to a ranged environment and things are still evolving. That impacted gear selections to some degrees but was limited.

Additional changes that allowed one attribute to bolster another was also in line with encouraging changes and might have done some, but in a limited sense.

So are we there yet IMO, no. Is it a moving a target, yes. But this will cause issues since we do lose people as fast shifts change since they had toons they work longed on and built that suddenly became mote. We do need mechanisms to assist people in those fundamental shifts else we risk losing more over time. Not sure what form that assistance takes yet but have seen it enough to say it is needed.

Good hunting.

Jski.6180:

Total dmg is very different from burst dmg. When you have a game like GW2 with every class having some type of heal on some level contestant dmg becomes weaker. The real dmg is burst dmg.

I don’t know about pvp, but in pve power builds are still stronger than condi ones at burst. It’s in the long run that condi builds shine.

I think it’s just a lack of basic understanding. Meta builds are a constant determined by the player base. So it’s impossible to make a game that has none.

As soon as a change happens people look through all the builds until they find the one that produces the highest number, and they share. All the time I hear people blame the video company for the things they’re doing to themselves. Build diversity is there, you just don’t want to deal with people telling you you’re non meta.

For frac or raids? cuz it doesn’t matter anywhere else in PvE. Unless your guild wants to world first on the next boss.

Raids requires a mix to complete, and unless you are playing mesmer, you usually have a choice in role or damage. Frac is fine up to mid t4 with virtually any build, and after that you usually still have your choice.

If you’re talking PvP or WvW although it can be pretty unhealthy meta wise, there are specific sub-forms for that.

Wouldn’t just removing enrage timers help balance the meta? Then time becomes a convenience instead of a necessity. You could make the bosses do more damage with telegraphed attacks encouraging a variety of gear but not punishing you for taking your time. DPS will always be meta as long as timers exist. They are counterproductive to the thought of anything else.

Nonsense. DPS will be meta no matter whether timers exist or not. With all that active defense stuff, it’s built into the game’s very foundation.

DPS was meta before enrage timers were introduced to the game

Sure DPS was always meta when people would wait around for an hour for the right setup to shave 10 seconds off a run they could of done half an hour prior for being less picky. Players push it into the realm of unreasonable so even if mechanics change, they would have to change the way they think. Overcompensating has always been meta.

people complain about everything, if we get diversed specs, some will be saying “omg its too diverse, please just have 1 build, too complex, game no longer fun”.
it’s like the TD map, they complain, but when u get simple maps, others complain. cant plz them all.
then there are some of us who just play and have fun without worrying about this nonsense.

i mean if ppl want to try diverse traits, do wvw, it’s a mode that allows u to try anything. just imagine the other players as npcs. there are even gathering nodes in wvw now. wvw might just as well be pve.

Feanor.2358:

Too bad raid bosses do not use these much.

Does it really matter all that much what way your outgoing damage is displayed above the boss? Because frankly that’s all the ways in which condi and power differ in raids.

Astralporing.1957:

I don’t know about pvp, but in pve power builds are still stronger than condi ones at burst. It’s in the long run that condi builds shine.

That’s definitely true. And, it brings out my biggest problem with power builds: they’re expecting the enemy to die almost immediately.

That’s OK when there’s only one enemy. But, when you get more enemies, it’s the power builds that crash first, requiring the character to be revived. So, in large battles, power builds are a detriment to the other players involved.

UNLESS everybody is running power builds, and the crowd in the area is not in over their heads.

Daddicus.6128:

That’s OK when there’s only one enemy. But, when you get more enemies, it’s the power builds that crash first, requiring the character to be revived. So, in large battles, power builds are a detriment to the other players involved.

You forget, that condi damage doesn’t cleave. The only thing that keeps condi relevant in mass combat environment is epidemic.

Cercie.1025:

Wouldn’t just removing enrage timers help balance the meta? Then time becomes a convenience instead of a necessity. You could make the bosses do more damage with telegraphed attacks encouraging a variety of gear but not punishing you for taking your time. DPS will always be meta as long as timers exist. They are counterproductive to the thought of anything else.

Timers have zero relation to the meta. There are no timers in fractals or dungeons and people still play meta there and meta existed there before raids. Timers or no timers, people like to go the most efficient way. That’s not going to change. There will always be meta and it will always be dps-centric. Technically the developers can enforce a different type of meta by making players have to play defensively, but they won’t do it. Because for the most players the resulting gameplay will feel sluggish and outright bad.

Carighan.6758:

Feanor.2358:

Too bad raid bosses do not use these much.

Does it really matter all that much what way your outgoing damage is displayed above the boss? Because frankly that’s all the ways in which condi and power differ in raids.

No, but it does matter what I do to produce it. I actually have no issue with condi builds per se. My issue is with the rise of simple to play overpowered builds. They happen to be condi, because condi is what gets buffed recently.

Astralporing.1957:

Daddicus.6128:

That’s OK when there’s only one enemy. But, when you get more enemies, it’s the power builds that crash first, requiring the character to be revived. So, in large battles, power builds are a detriment to the other players involved.

You forget, that condi damage doesn’t cleave. The only thing that keeps condi relevant in mass combat environment is epidemic.

That is only kinda true, though. It doesn’t cleave, but many of the attacks that inflict conditions do hit multiple targets. (For which, as a necro, I’m glad, because otherwise pocket raptors would be even more kitten than they are already.)

I mean, yes, once it’s on someone you don’t cleave, but it’s easy to apply in an area, and about as effective as power cleave. (Since reaper has some cleave power attacks, I have a basis for direct comparison.)

Astralporing.1957:

Jski.6180:

Total dmg is very different from burst dmg. When you have a game like GW2 with every class having some type of heal on some level contestant dmg becomes weaker. The real dmg is burst dmg.

I don’t know about pvp, but in pve power builds are still stronger than condi ones at burst. It’s in the long run that condi builds shine.

So vs any boss type mob? Is it realty a thing to be best gear vs trash mobs that just seems silly and a waist of a person in your group.

Everybody missed the point.
This isn’t about crunching numbers, or game mechanics, or design/bad design.

Anet did nothing wrong. This is about player(US) mentality.

3 camps.

1. those who are in the “in” crowd, meta, go rabid when precious meta is challenged
2. those who are anti/counter culture(in this case the cool kids)
3. those who just play the freaking game without having to sperg out over minutiae.

Now don’t know about you, but I have not changed my gear stats post patch, and I main a warrior. Infact, I have actually salvaged all my ascended, and now wear full exotic armor from WvW merhcant. My trinkets? ulgoths tail and krytan bandit mark. kitten son I even still wear the green antique ascalonian ring from when I was level 20!

Noticed ZERO NOTICABLE DROP in any pve content, with sole exception of raids.
I can still run AC all paths naked, I can still solo Nightmare fractal t2, pve world mobs are not even a thing.

Help me understand why this is such a big deal.
I don’t understand.

Emmibolt.3928:

Everybody missed the point.
This isn’t about crunching numbers, or game mechanics, or design/bad design.

Anet did nothing wrong. This is about player(US) mentality.

3 camps.

1. those who are in the “in” crowd, meta, go rabid when precious meta is challenged
2. those who are anti/counter culture(in this case the cool kids)
3. those who just play the freaking game without having to sperg out over minutiae.

Now don’t know about you, but I have not changed my gear stats post patch, and I main a warrior. Infact, I have actually salvaged all my ascended, and now wear full exotic armor from WvW merhcant. My trinkets? ulgoths tail and krytan bandit mark. kitten son I even still wear the green antique ascalonian ring from when I was level 20!

Noticed ZERO NOTICABLE DROP in any pve content, with sole exception of raids.
I can still run AC all paths naked, I can still solo Nightmare fractal t2, pve world mobs are not even a thing.

Help me understand why this is such a big deal.
I don’t understand.

Just wanted to point out on number 3 many pick viable builds just not meta.

Ryou.2398:

Emmibolt.3928:

Everybody missed the point.
This isn’t about crunching numbers, or game mechanics, or design/bad design.

Anet did nothing wrong. This is about player(US) mentality.

3 camps.

1. those who are in the “in” crowd, meta, go rabid when precious meta is challenged
2. those who are anti/counter culture(in this case the cool kids)
3. those who just play the freaking game without having to sperg out over minutiae.

Now don’t know about you, but I have not changed my gear stats post patch, and I main a warrior. Infact, I have actually salvaged all my ascended, and now wear full exotic armor from WvW merhcant. My trinkets? ulgoths tail and krytan bandit mark. kitten son I even still wear the green antique ascalonian ring from when I was level 20!

Noticed ZERO NOTICABLE DROP in any pve content, with sole exception of raids.
I can still run AC all paths naked, I can still solo Nightmare fractal t2, pve world mobs are not even a thing.

Help me understand why this is such a big deal.
I don’t understand.

Just wanted to point out on number 3 many pick viable builds just not meta.

I know, I am lumped in no3.

Feanor.2358:

No, but it does matter what I do to produce it. I actually have no issue with condi builds per se. My issue is with the rise of simple to play overpowered builds. They happen to be condi, because condi is what gets buffed recently.

Yeah true, that makes sense. I mean playing a Mesmer nothing ever changes for me, granted. >.>

Astralporing.1957:

You forget, that condi damage doesn’t cleave. The only thing that keeps condi relevant in mass combat environment is epidemic.

AoE.

And, while cleave is valuable, it’s only three enemies at a time, and doesn’t help much once the power build is downed, which was my point.

Plus, cleaving is completely useless against a lone boss. (But, so is AoE condi, so that’s a wash.)