Guild Wars 2

anzenketh.3759:

The new one allows for greater build diversity as you can take what effects you want without sacrificing the stats you need.

I also personally find it easier to understand. I am actually paying more attention to traits now as I was not really before.

Except it actually huts build diversity by a proportionate amount, because you can’t readily get the stat combinations you need for non-focused builds. If you run all Zerks, this is about as simple as it gets.

But if you run hybrids, like my medi-guard who used zerks armor, Knights trinkets, and got the bulk of my toughness, healing and Vit off my traits, trying to rebalance that is impossible when the 2 stat types I want are both locked behind deep Achievements and the Living story rewards. I can’t even craft some of them due to discontinued recipes and general lack of materials.

I am all in favor of disconnecting those points from the trait lines; but shifting them directly to equipment (some of which have inaccessible crafting requirements) makes several defensive and hybrid builds nigh beyond difficult to properly replicate.

I’d much rather they had them as free distributed points (in blocks of 50) so we could effectively customize out builds, and get around the fundamental problem locked stat combos because of crafting.

ASP.8093:

Here’s the thing with the old system: a lot of the individual traits were pretty rubbish.

Here’s the thing with current system: lot of individual traits are still rubbish.

That saying, the previous way of unlocking the traits was really, really, really bad. Don’t want to return to that.

Don’t say we. I LOVE the new one. You may not like it, and that is fine. Don’t speak for me though.

I want the old system back. I WANT to be able to chose my path. I want to balance the characters my way. I had one character with 2 points in all 5 trees; I was searching for ‘balance’ [completely decked out in celestial gear, too]. As said in many places, The promise of GW2 was to be Different.
Compromise. Have some basic skills unlocked when you reach the proper skill level. Have some that you have to unlock/buy.
My thief was a Gunslinger; ricochet was its bread and butter. IF it was OP, then reduce the ricochet rate, don’t scrap it.
You remove the system that did make you unique among the bigger MMOs, remove abilities that are beloved, and then ask us to buy an upgrade. A very strange sales pitch.

TheGuy.3568:

Look I can’t do one of these 3 page post with lots of graphs, numbers, and charts. But I think I can keep it short and get he point across.

We liked it more, it had more diversity, and this one just isn’t really that much fun to explore.

That’s all I got. I know it likely won’t happen but……..

….. Nope… That all

“We”? Uh, no. The new system is superior in every way.

Everyone who “Loves” the new system is someone who already plays a op-meta build. People who dislike the meta are the serious players who stood by arenanets original morals of “Play what you want, how you want it” not “Play what we tell you to play, or dont play at all.”

The people who HATE the new trait system is because its BLARINGLY obvious why they killed build diversity. So that they could more easily manage what was overpowered and add things to the game without breaking too much. Its much easier to keep tabs on one to two builds per class, then a possible hundred that any one minor buff could easily make brokenly op.

Clearly arenanet is not good at thinking in advance what their changes will do, and their players are. Hence why this patch comes out and the whole game is a fiasco of mesmers running around nuking entire zergs in WvW.. I think that was the FASTEST i’ve ever seen anet patch/nerf something.. Ironicly after people were complaining and a moderator posted in the thread “I think its a bit too early to judge, the patch has only been out for 4 hours.”..

Its clear now that every class has a few options for builds, 1-3 max. And those builds are limited to what your doing with them. IE you have one PVE build, one WvW build, and one Spvp build. Theres no diversity in that.. Everyone in PVE will have the same build, everyone in WvW will have the same, etc.. Sure its easier to ballance, but at the expense of our FREEDOM.. They are doing EXACTLY what WoW did when they streamlined their game and everyone and their mothers quit.

In one patch, anet removed ALL of the builds that ALL of my characters used, by removing traits, merging them into random other trees, or outright just buffing the meta builds into making it utterly pointless to run anything else. Its stupid, and I hate THAT.

Aside from that, I love everything else in the game they added. Im just kittened I cant play any of this amazing new content because I have no built character to experience it on. I refuse to just go look up a meta and play what the internet tells me I have to play. That goes against EVERYTHING gw2 stands for.

/rant

binidj.5734:

Cambeleg.7632:

C’mon, really? Just two days with a new system, and you’re asking for going back to the old one?

Well yeah, there’s much to recommend the new one like getting rid of all the “improvements” we got in the last big update, and divorcing trait lines from stats; but what makes me hate it is that it has destroyed a few of my builds for no better reason than ANet thinks I should play a profession in a certain way. I miss the flexibility (and UI where I could see everything on one page) of the old system because contrary to popular belief, not all of us made characters according to the current meta. They may not have been super-efficient builds but they were fun.

An example of ANet deciding how I play is making all necro wells ground targeted thus getting rid of the trait that made them that way, I mean that’s an improvement right? Wrong. I would gladly spend a grandmaster trait, hell an entire trait line, just to make wells PBAE again. Before consolidation I had the choice, now I do not.

Prior to the change I was happy with the builds of almost all my characters, now I’m happy with just under half of them.

Maybe you’re not getting the point about how ‘young’ is the new system. Either about they’ll be adding new trait lines with time -the specs in HoT are trait lines-, so you’ll have more options to spread your choices.

Just telling the new system is ‘kitten’ after a couple of days running, is a bit ridiculous. And to give as excuse ‘my builds are broken and I can’t remake em with the new system’… you’ll apology me by the expression, but is childish. Builds change always, sooner or later, and they adapt with every new change. If a player can’t manage to remake a build for the new times, maybe this player should think about why this happens… and not just blaming the devs for changing the system.

Just for the record: where I used to find 2 valid builds in some classes, I already found 4 or 5 valid ones with the new system… and I’m not already an ‘expert’, but just a player who likes to explore every option. This should tell you something.

Raven.3957:

Everyone who “Loves” the new system is someone who already plays a op-meta build.

MEEEEEEC. Wrong answer, Raven.

I never followed ‘meta builds’, even I rage when someone ‘suggested’ me to check Metabattle for making my builds, just ‘cos they weren’t meta. And I love the new system.

Bad statement, Raven.

binidj.5734:

Out of curiosity, of those people who like the new system, how many played from launch? I ask because a lot of the “I love it” posts appear to be people who fell victim to the horrible trait acquisition changes made (relatively) recently.

Almost three years in GW2. Enough time for you for validating my opinion, or you request to play since GW1 for it?

I like the changes. kitten no do I want Anet to revert them. Also, think from it as a standpoint of the developers. They worked their kitten off to bring us this massive balance patch, they gave us SO much information months before it even came out, they took player feedback about the changes, and are working their kitten off post-release to fix the plethora of bugs employed in the patch, and you’re telling them to just.. Go back? Revert the changes? After all their work? Hell no.

I like this system better. It just takes some getting used to.

I have no strong feelings one way or another. I enjoyed aspects of the old system, and I enjoy aspects of this one. My feelings aren’t really important, though.

The simple fact of the matter is, they put a LOT of effort into this, and the entire design of the game going forward is based on this system, therefore there is absolutely no way they can go back, let alone would.

The new system seems over simplified with a pretty, yet completely non-intuitive interface slapped on it.

Oh yeah, and the circular progress graphic, exactly like the NGE craptasm.

At first blush, this does not excite me about this game, or make me want to learn a new system. Glad some like it. Time will tell. It seems more restrictive, with a pretty wrapper put on it that is functionally bleh. I’ll wait for a long time to see what falls out. I have better things to do than worry about this mess now. Its not fun, or entertaining.

binidj.5734:

Out of curiosity, of those people who like the new system, how many played from launch? I ask because a lot of the “I love it” posts appear to be people who fell victim to the horrible trait acquisition changes made (relatively) recently.

I’ve played since launch and I still prefer the new system. But I’m not a theory crafter or a min-maxer. This is easier to play without going nuts making a build. Some people love to build, some people love to get that over with so they can go kill stuff.

TheGuy.3568:

Look I can’t do one of these 3 page post with lots of graphs, numbers, and charts. But I think I can keep it short and get he point across.

We liked it more, it had more diversity, and this one just isn’t really that much fun to explore.

That’s all I got. I know it likely won’t happen but……..

Speak. For. Yourself.

Let’s be realistic even though the new system seems nice, me as a pvper and WvWer have noticed a huge inbalance between some of the classes, mainly if someone is a good thief you can’t touch them at all anymore and before you know it they have you backstabbed and down, engi’s f2 for grenade kit practically one shots people, necros get crushed under anything with high damage or condi, I could go on about other classes and how completely unbalanced the game has become for pvpers and wvwers but you get my point, they need to revise the new system and figure out how they can truly balance it out, otherwise the old system is technically better than the new do to the old system offered more of a balanced combat environment.

Shadow.1345:

Doghouse.1562:

I don’t feel it’s disastrous, but it most definitely lacks the scope for creativity and subtlety that the previous system had. By a HUGE margin.

Under the old system, I make it that there were no less than 30258000 different variations on allocating points on a 6/6/2 spread alone for players to choose from. (Yes, that really does say “Over 30 million”. And, yes, that’s combinations, not permutations, for anyone who thinks that I may have forgotten such things.) And that’s only one of many ways I could have chosen to spread my points out.

One pattern among many; 30 million variations. I’m not going to put the effort to work out the actual answer, because whilst the maths is trivial it’s also tedious, and I’d rather be playing; I only worked out the first number because I’m a maths nerd at heart. But the message is clear, and it wouldn’t surprise me at all if the final total were well over half a billion.

And, sure, most of those specs were probably obvious rubbish. And lots of good ones were near-identical. But what it meant was that there was a HUGE specification space out there for inventive, creative players to explore for something that suited their play style. That has now gone.

What are we left with? 270 distinct builds (27 different permutations of major trait per Core Specialization; 10 possible combinations of 3 Core Specializations. That’s yer lot).

270 versus maybe half a billion. In any profession, excluding incomplete builds, there are now exactly 270 different ways to fully spec your traits. That’s it. Probability that your “clever” new build is actually simply a carbon copy of lots of others running around out there – 100%. Room for creativity? Pretty much none. We’re going to be running cookie-cutter builds now, whether we want to or not. And, while I don’t dislike the new system per se – that’s a real shame.

(I’m sure that ANet are relying on HoT putting a little bit of variety back in. Undoubtedly it could, to some degree – but not to anything remotely resembling the scope we had before.)

Those ultra creative one of kind of those half-billion builds are what are referred to as “scrub builds”. Some build somebody made to be a special snowflake that is absolutely worthless because they thought it would be fun but spent most of the time in the downed state. Nobody in your dungeon party or on your sPvP team wants your special snowflake build bringing the team down.

Also a sizable portion of those builds that have one or more of those traits now as baseline or had the traits consolidated because they went well together. Keeping in mind that we only get three non-elite utility skills means that you are picking traits to support those you chose. It’s not like you’d take 20% reduced recharge on traps and not have any traps. Then if you are running with traps and did take that trait it’s likely you picked some other trait that made your traps better. Now those traits are consolidated.

With some traits made baseline + consolidated traits actually reduces those half-billion builds greatly because they get removed from the choices. Since combinations are C(n, r) = n!/[(n! – r!)r!] that means removing even 1 selection of a sizable enough group to give combinations in excess of even 1 million is going to result in a much smaller number due to the nature of factorials. So as impressive as 30+ million vs. 270 sounds it was done without taking in consolidation and traits being made baseline into consideration. That’s negligent math.

Also those traits being consolidated and baselined means getting those same traits plus choices in addition as well to what you would take for the synergy or even getting traits that people didn’t pick in favor of better choices, like extra downed state damage.

Shadow your mentality of scrub builds is the exact reason people probably don’t wvw or desire to play with you, because some people just play for fun, because aka its a game.

I’m finding it to be the biggest change for quite some time.
Larger than the first trait revamp and NPE. Granted many builds were killed and many options were reduced. How many of those trait options were never or rarely taken though? Thee max tier lines provides a large boost in most cases even when they’ve unfortunately nerfed a number of options by putting them in the same mutually exclusive line.

In the end it still feels like GW2. Still do miss GW1 at times, but it’s still there to hop on if the nostalgia gets too much. Would like to see more GW1 concepts brought over.

Didn’t read all because my eyes are burning (ointment, nvm) but here’s how I see it.

Old trait system had really only 1-2 viable options per slot. The rest was filler, stuff people rarely used. They must have seemed like a good idea at the time but a dev can’t really know for sure how something will end up being used. The GW1 55monk comes to mind.

So if one considers that in the old system there really only were about 1-2 viable options per slot, then it’s kind of the same as before.

I think it’s better.

Also, as they add more specialisations, more entire trait lines get added (right?) so there will be more diversity or potential diversity later on.

For me the problem with the new system is the interface. I feel lost when looking for a specific trait or deciding which trait lines to choose. What would make it better for me would be to have all trait lines visible like in the old system. Then the inactive ones would be greyed out. One could hover the mouse over the traits and read what they do and this way have an overall view of the system at all times.

Another veteran (2 months after launch) player pitching in and saying this patch pretty much has killed my interest in the game. I take it this is the direction of the mentality behind the expansion too, so I’m not getting that either.

Really disappointed you just roll out something like this without letting the community pitch in. I’m sure you’ll get enough new players from the marketing campaigns to make good bank though. A disappointed player isn’t too much to worry about in that sense.

Kal Spiro.9745:

I have no strong feelings one way or another. I enjoyed aspects of the old system, and I enjoy aspects of this one. My feelings aren’t really important, though.

The simple fact of the matter is, they put a LOT of effort into this, and the entire design of the game going forward is based on this system, therefore there is absolutely no way they can go back, let alone would.

If that is true, there is absolutely no way I’m going to pay for or play the expansion.

old system sucked

misterman.1530:

Maybe, just maybe, the OP didn’t mean the actual Traits. What he meant was the ability to pick traits in more than 3 lines? Just maybe that is what he meant. I don’t think OP was defending the old trait acquisition system, nor the actual Trait/Skill combinations.

I, for one, hate the fact I am locked into 3 trait lines. I also hate that I have to take a 3 of each level (adept, master, and grandmaster) – I can’t take 1 Adept and 2 Master traits, for example. So…those arguing that this new system has more diversity…I think you need to look up what “diversity” means.

You are correct I could have been clearer. I never cared about the stats myself I always compensated with gear (once givers came out I never cared at all).

What you have here is a system that is better for balance but by far more limiting. So many traits were retired and you are naturally locked out of some synergy. By dumbing it down they actually made it much less diverse. Yes we take more traits but the breakdowns are brutal.

Especially with the changes to condi they just kind of killed the art of building rather than finding the meta. I know some people won’t understand the difference but I am sure others will.

In the process of moving trait they additionally retired many off beat builds. Like turret for Engineer PP for thief and so on. They can still be used but their effectiveness (which was niche in the first place) was actually nerfed.

I played from launch so unlock etc I never payed attention. I have 4 toons over 2 years old and a fifth just shy of it. I had every skill unlocked forever ago.

binidj.5734:

Out of curiosity, of those people who like the new system, how many played from launch? I ask because a lot of the “I love it” posts appear to be people who fell victim to the horrible trait acquisition changes made (relatively) recently.

I’ve been around since launch (of GW1 and GW2), so I’ve experienced all the changes that have been made throughout the game. And yes, I like the most recent changes because I thought that the AFP was a godawful downgrade to how traits were unlocked. The unlocking part is much better now, and although the build diversification has been reduced, I personally don’t mind because it just means that I need to experiment and develop a new way to play my characters.

Raven.3957:

Everyone who “Loves” the new system is someone who already plays a op-meta build.

<snip>

In one patch, anet removed ALL of the builds that ALL of my characters used, by removing traits, merging them into random other trees, or outright just buffing the meta builds into making it utterly pointless to run anything else. Its stupid, and I hate THAT.

Aside from that, I love everything else in the game they added. Im just kittened I cant play any of this amazing new content because I have no built character to experience it on. I refuse to just go look up a meta and play what the internet tells me I have to play. That goes against EVERYTHING gw2 stands for.

I like the new changes, and I don’t use OP-meta builds when I play. And like you, I have never once visited those build database websites or taken build advice from anyone, because I don’t feel the need to play like other people. I make up my own builds whether they turn out to be effective or not. It’s part of the fun of experimenting with different combinations of skills/traits!

And while build diversity has been greatly reduced, I think that you’re overreacting. The game is still playable. You simply need to devise a new build. It doesn’t have to be meta, as long as you like how it works. It’ll take some time to mull things over, but you never know when you might discover a new build that totally suits your own play style!

To the ArenaNet Developers:

The new “Specialization” system that was introduced a couple of days ago is flawed in its concept. The new system drastically simplifies selection of “builds”, but in doing so, it destroys what was one of the most enjoyable elements of GW2 for many players — experimenting with not-so-obvious combinations of traits.

The trait system has undergone several positive changes since GW2 was introduced. Eliminating the fee for changes, and making it possible to change/adjust builds quickly from any location removed barriers to experimentation, and made the process very enjoyable. Unfortunately, the current Specialization system violates the rule that you should not “fix” something that is not broken.

The new system gives players fewer trait choices at each “tier” in a given specialization, it prevents players from choosing multiple traits from lower tiers in a given specialization (trait line), and it forces players to limit their selection of traits to three trait lines. THESE ARE SERIOUS LIMITATIONS, which together result in a HUGE reduction in available build combinations.

Do the math. If you look at the effect of these changes on a single specialization (trait line), the total possible trait combinations are now just 27 (3 × 3 × 3). Previously, if you chose to concentrate your points in a single trait line, you could select from 594 possible combinations (6 × 9 × 11).

This dramatic reduction in available build combinations is offset slightly by the ability to maximize a third trait line, but that change could just as easily have been incorporated into the old system.

Obviously, not all build choices are created equal, and it may be wiser to choose a trait from a higher tier, instead of a second (or third) trait from lower tiers in the same trait line, or lower-tier traits from a fourth or fifth trait line. On the other hand, by experimenting with lower tier combinations, many players have found that the synergies of certain combinations make the whole greater than the sum of its parts. (For example, “Fire’s Embrace” — which was eliminated a couple of days ago — made Signets far more useful for Elementalists, and the double dagger “signet build,” which is no longer very effective, was one of my favorites).

Even if that were not the case, there is no downside to giving players more choices — it makes the game far more interesting, mentally challenging, and enjoyable. Quite frankly, I’m very disappointed in the direction the game is taking with the new Specialization system. I hope that the developers at ArenaNet will reconsider their decision to “dumb down” the trait selection process, but I won’t wait forever for that to happen.

Damian.6978:

Another veteran (2 months after launch) player pitching in and saying this patch pretty much has killed my interest in the game. I take it this is the direction of the mentality behind the expansion too, so I’m not getting that either.

Really disappointed you just roll out something like this without letting the community pitch in. I’m sure you’ll get enough new players from the marketing campaigns to make good bank though. A disappointed player isn’t too much to worry about in that sense.

Kal Spiro.9745:

I have no strong feelings one way or another. I enjoyed aspects of the old system, and I enjoy aspects of this one. My feelings aren’t really important, though.

The simple fact of the matter is, they put a LOT of effort into this, and the entire design of the game going forward is based on this system, therefore there is absolutely no way they can go back, let alone would.

If that is true, there is absolutely no way I’m going to pay for or play the expansion.

I’m sorry that you feel this way.

However, they created this new patch using ideas from the months and months of complaints that culminated into thousands of replies on a single thread after the AFP-traits were rolled out. Thus, saying that they didn’t consult the players is simply unfair and untrue. All that happened was they took the game in a direction that you disagree with. Plain and simple.

It is a big game, and there is lots to do, so hopefully you can find at least one thing to appreciate if you continue playing. If not, then I hope the next game you find will be more suited to your tastes. Keep in mind, that game might change too.

People like the new system cause now they can play OP builds and one shot two shot someone. Fun.. pfff, of course unbalance is fun

I wonder who these “We” are the OP speaks of. He seems to – erroneously – want to include me in it.

The old system – Mesmer here – was stupid. The new one is far from perfect, but already a huge step in the right direction. Getting there.

I’ve also played since beta and I actually like the new system overall. Not happy about maybe needing to regear about half my toons but overall happy with it. It gives me something to do.

Someone else pointed out that this change is most likely due to the elite specialization that is coming. Anet would want you to go 6 in that elite instead of say keeping it the old way, putting 1 point in the elite to get the benefit of the new weapon type and using some old build with you new weapon type. Now don’t go saying if it was the old way you’d have to put 6 to get the new elite specialization weapon type because that’s the same argument people are having now about not being able to use more than 3 trait lines.

Either way play around with it. I found it is better then the old system but that’s just me.

agrante.2810:

For me the problem with the new system is the interface. I feel lost when looking for a specific trait or deciding which trait lines to choose. What would make it better for me would be to have all trait lines visible like in the old system. Then the inactive ones would be greyed out. One could hover the mouse over the traits and read what they do and this way have an overall view of the system at all times.

They are all visible. Go to your Build tab. Look at the top, there are three sub tabs. The right hand one is traits. Click that and the left column fills up with all five lines in a mini-grid format. Mouse hover over the icons in the grid and you see the info you want.

I would like some of the traits back (three is not enough of a range) but not all of them.

Umaru.2634:

People like the new system cause now they can play OP builds and one shot two shot someone. Fun.. pfff, of course unbalance is fun

I want to believe you’re not generalizing. You know, this is a very bad idea. If you’re too blind for getting the possibilities the new system offers… or for understanding the damage and effects still are being balanced and adjusted… well, it’s your problem.

I don’t “oneshot”. If something like this happens, I inmediately avoid it.

New system makes it harder to create completely useless builds. That’s probably why few people dislike it.

I actually like the new system and I’ve been playing since launch so I’m not a newbie (not that there’s anything wrong with newbies….welcome all newbies!)

Dyvim.8293:

The new system seems over simplified with a pretty, yet completely non-intuitive interface slapped on it.

Oh yeah, and the circular progress graphic, exactly like the NGE craptasm.

At first blush, this does not excite me about this game, or make me want to learn a new system. Glad some like it. Time will tell. It seems more restrictive, with a pretty wrapper put on it that is functionally bleh. I’ll wait for a long time to see what falls out. I have better things to do than worry about this mess now. Its not fun, or entertaining.

This sums up my feelings on it as well. Oversimplified, less build diversity, horrible UI. I will check in periodically to see if Anet improves on this system over time, but right now I’m just not interested. And forget spending 40-60 bucks on an expansion based on this new trait system.

New system is 100x better then old system.

the old system had 0 variation when it came to competitive, it just let in tons of not great casual builds which didnt function that well just was funny to kill noobs with.

the new system has less builds but WAY more viable competitive builds, its just the current meta cloaking that currently because how OP condis are at the moment, the new system is much better and now they have taken off stats from them they allow u to set up ur character more to your own wants rather then being forced to specific traits for stats.

Nope.. I’ve been playing this game since its Beta and this new Trait system is far superior to any of the older ones

Im sorry that some of you out there are just too used to the old system or just not good at making your own builds but im not going to avoid giving my opinion on this subject..

Changing this system back would be a big mistake and would undermine soo much work and time put into HoT as well..
its not going to happen thankfully

so you better just get used to the new system.. which Btw is a lot easier to use than the old one as well..

it took me less than a hour to learn this new system and create 3 new builds based on my old builds which are now far more powerful than they were before

I have a Zerker Ranger with actual support functionality without loosing any DPS potential
I have a Condition Necromancer who is more powerful and now has insane party support functionality on top of that
and I have a Warrior Tank who is more powerful than before.. just as tanky as he was before and now has easy access to condition removal to cover his biggest weakness..

Sorry but Im very much going to defend this new system because its amazing and I for one see soo much build potential

Jeez just removing the stats from the traits makes a massive difference..
Now Im not forced to take useless traits because I wanted that extra power boost..
and im not forced to take useless healing power because I wanted a bit more toughness.. or vitality..

the old system was very restrictive in this way.. thats just a fact