Constructive Feedback on Leather Prices
Well, that feedback was nicely written. From my stance, all they need to do is change the refinement requirement from 3 back to 2 again. Simple tweaks that go a long way, but as you pointed out, they did too many changes at once.
Oh, well.
PET PRECISION & DPS TESTS -OUTDATED-
Will update once Path of Fire releases.
Will update once Path of Fire releases.
Suggested Improvement: Change drop rates of the Bloodstone-Warped Hide. Current rates look awful, heavily skewed towards T5 leather, at least according to the gw2 wiki droprate page: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bloodstone-Warped_Hide/Drop_rate
The point of the leather farm was to reduce the price of leather in the market place and it failed. Change the drop rates in the loot tables to skew further towards T6 and taper off towards T1, something like 40%→20%→10%→10%→10%→10% from T6 down to T1.
This way T6 is guaranteed to lower in price after a period of settlement, T5 leather still remains relatively high and the drops don’t undercut the getting of lower leather from low level maps.
Bonus points if the bloodstone-warped hide rates are updated every X hours according to availability and demand on the TP.
The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.
The leather farm has introduced a lot more leather to the market, enough that guilds etc are buying it for upgrades, and or people are buying it now waiting for the legendary armor etc etc,
The problem is, Anet did add a way to get leather, but 90% of people don’t use it, they want the 10% to farm it, and hope they flood the market for them so it drops in price, and all this just plays into the hands of the TP flippers, so yea if more ppl farmed leather, the prices to drop as supply would outstrip demand.
(edited by Ok I Did It.2854)
Adding a farm for Leather will not result in a quick drop in the price, due to the fact that the people who are using the farm are not selling it, but rather using it.
It won’t be until a large amount of demand has been sated through self-farming that TP prices will start to see a decline.
Server: Devona’s Rest
For the people who think the leather farm is working, I will tell you, as someone with over 15 years of experience in finance, it is absolutely not working.
1) Increased supply should decrease cost for several reasons aside from direct selling into the market but also from reduced buy orders in the market.
2) Markets do not trade on what is going on now, they trade on where people expect things to go. For example, the leather market traded down before the farm even came out, then traded up when people realized the farm wasn’t going to impact pricing. So the idea we need to “wait and see” is false.
3) The other argument I often hear is “this was meant to stop leather prices from getting higher”. Well we’re at 2.70s on thick leather sections which is the most prevalent drop from the leather farm. If the leather farm can’t put a ceiling on the leather it produces, the ceiling theory clearly was wrong. Economically we will eventually hit a ceiling but considering thick leather is 2.70s and silk scraps are 0.75s, the ceiling needed to be 2 silver ago.
@Torso:
Well, that’s what you will mostly get from here. Every time this comes up, people keep thinking adding more will solve issues. Look at class balancing suggestions, for example. Fix core issues? Nah. Just add more power creep.
Fun times.
PET PRECISION & DPS TESTS -OUTDATED-
Will update once Path of Fire releases.
Will update once Path of Fire releases.
@Torso:
Well, that’s what you will mostly get from here. Every time this comes up, people keep thinking adding more will solve issues. Look at class balancing suggestions, for example. Fix core issues? Nah. Just add more power creep.
Fun times.
Exactly. The obvious solution to do things slowly is to just increase salvage rates until prices get to a “normal” level. The fast solution is to change refinement ratios.
The leather farm isn’t working very well. You MUST have an organized group, or at least a zerg with a commander to follow. A “farm”, by definition, doesn’t require that kind of input.
I found it extremely difficult to farm that “farm”. There are just too many bad guys. Perhaps they could scale it better. When there are only 2-3 people in the area, scale the bad guy count down. A lot.
Cloth & metal are now super cheap relative to their peak prices, with e.g. silk running below 70 copper today and below 45 copper just 6 months ago, down from peak prices of over 320 copper per scrap. Thick leather is running at 280 copper, up from its nadir of vendor +18% (i.e. under 20 copper) in Sep of 2015. It is still cheaper than its peak of 290 copper in June of 2016.
There’s nothing economically “wrong” with leather prices. People (including me) dislike leather prices, with good reason; that’s not the same as proving that there’s a “problem” that needs to be solved, let alone one that is urgent.
I can, as always, find all the leather I need on the TP. I just can’t pay the same price for leather as I do for cloth or metal.
I’m not against ANet changing the supply or the demand; I just don’t think we should use an economic argument to justify it.
If they do change it, I personally favor reducing the sections required for patches and perhaps increasing the scraps required. Currently we need 10 thicks and 4 silks per patch; that could be adjusted to e.g. 8-9 thicks + 5 silks. Prices would drop a lot for leather, but eventually stabilize at a decent price for sellers.
John Smith: “you should kill monsters, because killing monsters is awesome.”
But I make gold selling it. What’s in it for me?
For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards,
for there you have been and there you will long to return.
for there you have been and there you will long to return.
The cost of leatherworking going from 0-400 is ~30G which is roughly on par with the other crafts using the other two materials. The difference comes with T6 which makes it ~70G to go from 400 to 500. It’s a little misleading to lump all leather together when the issue is just one specific tier.
Speaking of misleading, expand the graph out more than immediately before the update that brought the farm. Account for increased players playing as well as the announcements of the leather farm. These all contributed to the temporary downward spike in prices with the latter having the greater effect. Prices have more of less been stable.
The leather farm works fairly well if you intend to use the leather. When I farmed it, I usually got all of the leather I needed for the daily T7. It’s not intended to be a gold farm which is why not many players bother with it. I think I was making about 14G/hr from it if I sold everything.
With so few people doing the farm, you’re not going to see a noticeable impact on the leather market. So much leather gets exchanged on a daily impact which easily outweighs how much that is being brought in from it. The number of players farming with the intention of using leather further reduces how much eventually ends upon the TP.
(edited by Ayrilana.1396)
The leather farm works fairly well if you intend to use the leather.
Which I do, and that leather farm is working great for me.
Since it was introduced, I haven’t bothered looking for leather on the Trading Post.
Asura characters: Zerina | Myndee | Rissa | Jaxxi | Feyyt | Bekka | Sixx | Akee | Tylee | Nuumy
| Claara
Your skin will wrinkle and your youth will fade, but your soul is endless.
| Claara
Your skin will wrinkle and your youth will fade, but your soul is endless.
Bonus points if the bloodstone-warped hide rates are updated every X hours according to availability and demand on the TP.
I would love to see more dynamic sinks and material exchanges based on current market spreads. They’re not making full use of the once/day vendor idea, and if they used their own API, there could be daily/weekly vendors that show up to trade different goods.
Too much T5 on the market? Barter for T2/3/4/6 in a direct material flip, proportional with its presence on the trading post.
Need linen and have gobs of silk? Same thing.
Even metal and wood could exchange this way.
And the best part would be, it’s a self-regulating system and determined by player action. As long as there’s a limit to how much can be traded in a day, the market can stay in control of itself while buoying weak materials and taming ornery ones.
My current mind on it is to have a trading collective (Consortium? ;3) take inspiration from the Zephyrite traders. Their various vendor folks take 100 of one material and trade it for a number of the other proportional with what’s on the market. If it’s off by more than a factor of 10, limit to that: T5 at 540k units vs T6 around 10k units, the barter would take 100 T5 for 10 T6. (Yeah, at onset, trading would go bonkers, but the market would settle out.) Allow this vendor to do so once per day, probably with a small transaction fee (10s?) for the conversion.
Then we can finally undo the buggery that is the silk/leather refinement, since they would have value elsewhere.
Many alts; handle it!
“I’m finding companies should sell access to forums,
it seems many like them better than the games they comment on.” -Horrorscope.7632
“I’m finding companies should sell access to forums,
it seems many like them better than the games they comment on.” -Horrorscope.7632
The cost of leatherworking going from 0-400 is ~30G which is roughly on par with the other crafts using the other two materials. The difference comes with T6 which makes it ~70G to go from 400 to 500. It’s a little misleading to lump all leather together when the issue is just one specific tier.
It’s not misleading because the only reason to craft is legendaries or ascended. Basically every exotic can be bought except things like viper’s but if you’re going to craft viper’s you might as well craft the ascended version. Also, from 0-400 it is still 24% and
13% more expensive.
Speaking of misleading, expand the graph out more than immediately before the update that brought the farm. Account for increased players playing as well as the announcements of the leather farm. These all contributed to the temporary downward spike in prices with the latter having the greater effect. Prices have more of less been stable.
Do you have stats that show increased players playing? I have never seen Anet publish population numbers. Also I did mention pre-patch pricing. My point is that the prices have now exceeded the price that they were pre-patch announcement.
The leather farm works fairly well if you intend to use the leather. When I farmed it, I usually got all of the leather I needed for the daily T7. It’s not intended to be a gold farm which is why not many players bother with it. I think I was making about 14G/hr from it if I sold everything.
I’m going to pretty much call BS here unless you were farming for hours and swapping characters to offset the DR at which point you should have just been farming SW, fractals, or something else for 1/2 the time and then buying the leather on the TP.
With so few people doing the farm, you’re not going to see a noticeable impact on the leather market. So much leather gets exchanged on a daily impact which easily outweighs how much that is being brought in from it.
The number of players farming with the intention of using leather further reduces how much eventually ends upon the TP.
So few people do it because, as I mention above, it makes no rational or economic sense to do the leather farm unless the content there is something you really like (which is doubtful for the majority of the population and is evidenced by how few people do it). Players doing the leather farm and then using that leather would impact prices because they are no longer buying leather in the open market. That in itself should cause lower prices. The only way it wouldn’t is if all of those people never bought leather in the first place which is incredibly unlikely.
But I make gold selling it. What’s in it for me?
I hate it when people bring this up in these discussions, because they focus on themselves over retaining new players.
The exhorbitant price of leather drives away newer players to the game. Its literally only a good thing for those people who don’t have any more crafting to do to gear up their toons, and can afford to sell off all of their leather. For everyone else, the price is so out of line that it hurts their experience in this game.
And I say this as someone who either has all of my toons decked out in at least full exotics or have exotics for them for when they get to level 80. I don’t have a hidden agenda here. I just genuinely, 100% believe that the absurd cost of leather is ruining the experience of GW2 for thousands upon thousands of players.
Its way out of line with other base mats. On top of needing more leather than any other mat to craft anything, its also the most expensive mat you need (so you get hit by it twice in essence). And, quite honestly, the fact that you can buy an entire set of exotic gear for less gold than it would cost to make a single intricate gossamer inscription, which would let you craft a single piece of exotic gear, should tell every single person in this game that this is a kittened up market. I’m not trying to argue that it should be cheaper to craft exotics than to buy them, but the price difference most definitely should not be anywhere near as high as it currently is.
Also, to bring some numbers to this. The laurel vendor sells pieces of exotic gear. 5 laurels will get you 2 chests of gear for any specific class, which means each chest is 2.5 laurels. Rouding up to 4 laurels to chest due to the RNG nature (eg you could get items not at level 80, or 2 items for the same slot), this still means that Anet “values” exotic gear at approximately 4 laurels each.
You can buy crafting bags for 1 laurel each, and then sell the mats for direct gold. Which means that based on the vendors they implemented, ANet values 1 piece of exotic gear at around the cost of 4 crafting bags. That’s not 10 gold worth of mats. Anet themselves don’t think exotics are worth that much. So why the hell are they ok with artificially forcing the price up to over 10 gold per exotic piece due to the asinine cost of leather?
Also, to bring some numbers to this. The laurel vendor sells pieces of exotic gear. 5 laurels will get you 2 chests of gear for any specific class, which means each chest is 2.5 laurels. Rouding up to 4 laurels to chest due to the RNG nature (eg you could get items not at level 80, or 2 items for the same slot), this still means that Anet “values” exotic gear at approximately 4 laurels each.
You can buy crafting bags for 1 laurel each, and then sell the mats for direct gold. Which means that based on the vendors they implemented, ANet values 1 piece of exotic gear at around the cost of 4 crafting bags. That’s not 10 gold worth of mats. Anet themselves don’t think exotics are worth that much. So why the hell are they ok with artificially forcing the price up to over 10 gold per exotic piece due to the asinine cost of leather?
Great point on a back end way of mathing out an alternate price for exotics.
But I make gold selling it. What’s in it for me?
I hate it when people bring this up in these discussions, because they focus on themselves over retaining new players.
Give me a break. At least, I’m honest and stand for my own intrests. You are speaking on behalf of new players that you may or may not know, in order to justify why your self interest is more important than mine.
The exhorbitant price of leather drives away newer players to the game. Its literally only a good thing for those people who don’t have any more crafting to do to gear up their toons, and can afford to sell off all of their leather. For everyone else, the price is so out of line that it hurts their experience in this game.
Proof? Why should new players craft to get exotic gear when they can buy the named exotic armors? Don’t forget crafting itself costs a lot, and I would never recommend new players to craft.
Even when I was new running around Cursed Shore in green, I avoided crafting like the plague due the complexity and potential to waste money and materials. If we weren’t forced to craft with ascended gear, I would never do it at all.
I never tell new players to craft, because I feel they are wasting their time. And I’ve helped people plan how to get up. You know, I actually help newer players that you claim to want to help, so I know this is nonsense.
What I think the failing of this whole issue is regardless of changes, it’s going to affect someone. But a lot of you have taken it on yourselves to decide that you need it more than them. Well, I don’t agree.
For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards,
for there you have been and there you will long to return.
for there you have been and there you will long to return.
(edited by ArchonWing.9480)
The cost of leatherworking going from 0-400 is ~30G which is roughly on par with the other crafts using the other two materials. The difference comes with T6 which makes it ~70G to go from 400 to 500. It’s a little misleading to lump all leather together when the issue is just one specific tier.
It’s not misleading because the only reason to craft is legendaries or ascended. Basically every exotic can be bought except things like viper’s but if you’re going to craft viper’s you might as well craft the ascended version. Also, from 0-400 it is still 24% and
13% more expensive.Speaking of misleading, expand the graph out more than immediately before the update that brought the farm. Account for increased players playing as well as the announcements of the leather farm. These all contributed to the temporary downward spike in prices with the latter having the greater effect. Prices have more of less been stable.
Do you have stats that show increased players playing? I have never seen Anet publish population numbers. Also I did mention pre-patch pricing. My point is that the prices have now exceeded the price that they were pre-patch announcement.
The leather farm works fairly well if you intend to use the leather. When I farmed it, I usually got all of the leather I needed for the daily T7. It’s not intended to be a gold farm which is why not many players bother with it. I think I was making about 14G/hr from it if I sold everything.
I’m going to pretty much call BS here unless you were farming for hours and swapping characters to offset the DR at which point you should have just been farming SW, fractals, or something else for 1/2 the time and then buying the leather on the TP.
With so few people doing the farm, you’re not going to see a noticeable impact on the leather market. So much leather gets exchanged on a daily impact which easily outweighs how much that is being brought in from it.
The number of players farming with the intention of using leather further reduces how much eventually ends upon the TP.
So few people do it because, as I mention above, it makes no rational or economic sense to do the leather farm unless the content there is something you really like (which is doubtful for the majority of the population and is evidenced by how few people do it). Players doing the leather farm and then using that leather would impact prices because they are no longer buying leather in the open market. That in itself should cause lower prices. The only way it wouldn’t is if all of those people never bought leather in the first place which is incredibly unlikely.
In regards to leatherworking, it’s misleading because you’re claiming the total cost is out of line and blaming all tiers of leather when the primary cause is from only one tier. The difference to reach 400 is roughly 4-5G. It’s not that large of a gap.
As far as player stats, isn’t it widely accepted that new LS content doesn’t cause players to not play the game but instead bring back those that do not, even if only for a couple days? Your pre-patch pricing is misleading because you’re using numbers that are impacted by the return of people onto the maps and most importantly which include the effects of speculators in regards to the announcements of the leather farm.
I get enough leather within about two hours of farming. DR doesn’t take affect until about five hours or so in which you can just hop off to another maps and do some things to reset it. You could also hop onto another character as well. Had you paid attention to my post, I said that it was not intended as a gold farm. It provides a direct source for leather which had been requested by players for years.
You’re completely ignoring how much leather gets exchanged on the TP. The amount farmed by players are but a drop in an ocean. I place orders for to make 210 elonian leather and they easily get filled within a few hours depending on how often I get outbid. The amount farming the leather are not large enough to impact demand. Demand which fluctuates throughout the day.
Edit:
Thin and coarse leather prices since November have been flat.
Rugged leather prices were flat since November with the price level increased by about 20 copper in March along with some spikes. Supply has greatly increased recently so price could fall.
Thick leather was trending down until they had more sinks for it. It also has a farm that produces quite a lot of it.
Only hardened leather has had an upwards trend and it’s a very small one.
So yeah, you were being misleading by lumping all of leather together.
(edited by Ayrilana.1396)
The leather farm has introduced a lot more leather to the market, enough that guilds etc are buying it for upgrades, and or people are buying it now waiting for the legendary armor etc etc,
The problem is, Anet did add a way to get leather, but 90% of people don’t use it, they want the 10% to farm it, and hope they flood the market for them so it drops in price, and all this just plays into the hands of the TP flippers, so yea if more ppl farmed leather, the prices to drop as supply would outstrip supply.
The problem with the “leather farm” is the same as for HoT metas: you need a group, and there isn’t a group 24h/d. The difference is that unlike HoT metas, you don’t know when there will be a group for “leather farm”. So you can sit around and wait for one or go actually play the game.
it’s this luck based mystic toilet that we’re all so sick of flushing our money down. -Salamol
Cloth & metal are now super cheap relative to their peak prices, with e.g. silk running below 70 copper today and below 45 copper just 6 months ago, down from peak prices of over 320 copper per scrap. Thick leather is running at 280 copper, up from its nadir of vendor +18% (i.e. under 20 copper) in Sep of 2015. It is still cheaper than its peak of 290 copper in June of 2016.
There’s nothing economically “wrong” with leather prices. People (including me) dislike leather prices, with good reason; that’s not the same as proving that there’s a “problem” that needs to be solved, let alone one that is urgent.
There’s only a “problem” if you think that equivalent gear should cost an equivalent price.
it’s this luck based mystic toilet that we’re all so sick of flushing our money down. -Salamol
In regards to leatherworking, it’s misleading because you’re claiming the total cost is out of line and blaming all tiers of leather when the primary cause is from only one tier. The difference to reach 400 is roughly 4-5G. It’s not that large of a gap.
Which sounds low until you put a % around it and then you realize it’s off.
As far as player stats, isn’t it widely accepted that new LS content doesn’t cause players to not play the game but instead bring back those that do not, even if only for a couple days? Your pre-patch pricing is misleading because you’re using numbers that are impacted by the return of people onto the maps and most importantly which include the effects of speculators in regards to the announcements of the leather farm.
Can you prove any of the above statement with actual facts?
I get enough leather within about two hours of farming. DR doesn’t take affect until about five hours or so in which you can just hop off to another maps and do some things to reset it. You could also hop onto another character as well. Had you paid attention to my post, I said that it was not intended as a gold farm. It provides a direct source for leather which had been requested by players for years.
Got it, so the leather farm is a success because you only have to mindlessly farm for 2 hours a day to make 1 time gated leather item… Are you arguing for or against the leather farm?
You’re completely ignoring how much leather gets exchanged on the TP. The amount farmed by players are but a drop in an ocean. I place orders for to make 210 elonian leather and they easily get filled within a few hours depending on how often I get outbid. The amount farming the leather are not large enough to impact demand. Demand which fluctuates throughout the day.
You’re missing the point that prices have gone higher DESPITE the farm existing. If you want to make a counter-factual argument that “it would be worse without the farm” you can, but that isn’t the point. If the farm was at all useful it would have at least put a ceiling on T5 leather prices which is the vast majority of the leather farm output.
Edit:
Thin and coarse leather prices since November have been flat.
Rugged leather prices were flat since November with the price level increased by about 20 copper in March along with some spikes. Supply has greatly increased recently so price could fall.
Thick leather was trending down until they had more sinks for it. It also has a farm that produces quite a lot of it.
Only hardened leather has had an upwards trend and it’s a very small one.
So yeah, you were being misleading by lumping all of leather together.
I have no idea why you are measuring since November considering the patch announcement is from Jan 27 but Thick Leather is up by an entire silver (50%) and Hardened Leather is up from 31s to 34s (10%). All the rest are basically flat. Unfortunately, the leather people most care about, Thick (for elonian cord) and Hardened (for gossamer patches) are both up, one of which significantly up.
The cost of leatherworking going from 0-400 is ~30G which is roughly on par with the other crafts using the other two materials.
That’s because the cost of leather for the components are insignificant to the cost of leather for the patches. It’s depressing cloth prices.
Frankly, I think they need to have Patches take 3-5 in equal amounts Cloth and Leather (Instead of 4 cloth and 10 leather), and all refinements should be 3:1. Then drop and salvage rates would be the only things they need to work on.
As long as other areas of the game can produce higher gold per hour returns, the majority of players will skip the leather farm and do those activities instead. This will continue to result in ever-climbing leather prices, until such time as farming becomes profitable enough to warrant large-scale attention.
As I already mentioned, the players farming now are doing so to satisfy personal demand, thus they are not impacting the transactions on the Trading Post (other than a very minor drop in demand due to those players no longer buying any).
Server: Devona’s Rest
As long as other areas of the game can produce higher gold per hour returns, the majority of players will skip the leather farm and do those activities instead. This will continue to result in ever-climbing leather prices, until such time as farming becomes profitable enough to warrant large-scale attention.
As I already mentioned, the players farming now are doing so to satisfy personal demand, thus they are not impacting the transactions on the Trading Post (other than a very minor drop in demand due to those players no longer buying any).
That seems to work fine. General farming is when you just want gold to buy whatever you want, and specific farming if you want a specific thing.
For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards,
for there you have been and there you will long to return.
for there you have been and there you will long to return.
Gotta surf different forums for different sources of information
How about a reddit link as everyone loves numbers
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/63f85n/data_salvage_results_of_7700_bloodstonewarped/
This guy salvaged tons of bloodstone hides from the so called leather farm and recorded his results.
In the end a full stack of blood hides doesn’t even give enough leather to make a single exotic insignia and that there is a higher salvage of the overabundant leather and not the one with the sky rocketing prices.
The leather farm is a farce people abandoned other farming areas to go to the so called leather farming spot. In the old methods you’d farm all sorts of additional material in addition to the leather in the new one your basically farming nothing but hides with few other pieces. You couple farmers bringing in less leather with the new farming spot in addition to the death of AB Meta and all the salgae materials those people brought into the market. Then your left with the current situation of rising prices that will only get worse as time goes on.
In regards to leatherworking, it’s misleading because you’re claiming the total cost is out of line and blaming all tiers of leather when the primary cause is from only one tier. The difference to reach 400 is roughly 4-5G. It’s not that large of a gap.
Which sounds low until you put a % around it and then you realize it’s off.
As far as player stats, isn’t it widely accepted that new LS content doesn’t cause players to not play the game but instead bring back those that do not, even if only for a couple days? Your pre-patch pricing is misleading because you’re using numbers that are impacted by the return of people onto the maps and most importantly which include the effects of speculators in regards to the announcements of the leather farm.
Can you prove any of the above statement with actual facts?
I get enough leather within about two hours of farming. DR doesn’t take affect until about five hours or so in which you can just hop off to another maps and do some things to reset it. You could also hop onto another character as well. Had you paid attention to my post, I said that it was not intended as a gold farm. It provides a direct source for leather which had been requested by players for years.
Got it, so the leather farm is a success because you only have to mindlessly farm for 2 hours a day to make 1 time gated leather item… Are you arguing for or against the leather farm?
You’re completely ignoring how much leather gets exchanged on the TP. The amount farmed by players are but a drop in an ocean. I place orders for to make 210 elonian leather and they easily get filled within a few hours depending on how often I get outbid. The amount farming the leather are not large enough to impact demand. Demand which fluctuates throughout the day.
You’re missing the point that prices have gone higher DESPITE the farm existing. If you want to make a counter-factual argument that “it would be worse without the farm” you can, but that isn’t the point. If the farm was at all useful it would have at least put a ceiling on T5 leather prices which is the vast majority of the leather farm output.
Edit:
Thin and coarse leather prices since November have been flat.
Rugged leather prices were flat since November with the price level increased by about 20 copper in March along with some spikes. Supply has greatly increased recently so price could fall.
Thick leather was trending down until they had more sinks for it. It also has a farm that produces quite a lot of it.
Only hardened leather has had an upwards trend and it’s a very small one.
So yeah, you were being misleading by lumping all of leather together.
I have no idea why you are measuring since November considering the patch announcement is from Jan 27 but Thick Leather is up by an entire silver (50%) and Hardened Leather is up from 31s to 34s (10%). All the rest are basically flat. Unfortunately, the leather people most care about, Thick (for elonian cord) and Hardened (for gossamer patches) are both up, one of which significantly up.
Percentages are percentages which are meaningless without context. Something costs 1 silver and then increases to 2 silver. That’s an increase of 100% but the amount itself insignificant. The 4-5G is fairly insignificant with how easy gold is to earn and how much prices fluctuate.
You don’t need to use numbers to show that the active game population increases upon release of living story updates. The only thing that can’t be proven is by how much. Regardless, however much it increases by is insignificant to the effect that speculation had on prices. Whether or not you get your facts doesn’t dispute what I said.
Players asked for a direct way to farm leather. Anet provided a direct way to farm leather. Whether it’s more efficient than farming gold wasn’t the point. Is that really hard to grasp?
Prices haven’t gone higher. Other than thick leather because of new sinks and hardened leather which has had a small upward trend. Both of these I had already mentioned. The rest have been flat. Well rugged did see like a 20 copper price level increase during March.
The problem is that you’re making the mistake of using a data point right before the update that gave the leather farm. You’re essentially cherry picking the low point while completely ignoring exactly why it was low in the first place despite me telling you numerous times. It’s no different than the price of oranges going up because of a supply scare, going back down where nothing happened, and then you using the price difference to argue that orange prices were out of line because they were dropping.
The problem is that you’re making the mistake of using a data point right before the update that gave the leather farm. You’re essentially cherry picking the low point while completely ignoring exactly why it was low in the first place despite me telling you numerous times. It’s no different than the price of oranges going up because of a supply scare, going back down where nothing happened, and then you using the price difference to argue that orange prices were out of line because they were dropping.
OMG WTF are you even talking about. Leather prices fell because of the announcement of the leather farm area which nobody knew what it was going to be. They speculated it would be good for players and lower prices so they fell. I am taking prices from THE DAY BEFORE THE PATCH WAS ANNOUNCED.
Here’s me: Fact: the patch notes came out on 1/27, I am taking prices from the day before.
Here’s you: Making up some player numbers and making up what is going on with no facts whatsoever.
You want an apples and oranges argument? Here’s my analogy using what you’re doing. The news comes out on 1/27 that a GMO orange is going to hit the market and yields are going to be huge. People start selling orange futures because they think prices will go down. You say “I haven’t taken any measurements, and I have no proof whatsoever, but people might be eating less oranges maybe”. Orange prices go down but it turns out the GMO orange doesn’t increase yields and causes cancer. Prices for oranges go back up. I am measuring prices from 1/26 when nobody realized the GMO orange existed. You are saying that’s not valid because of your super scientific opinion that “maybe people were like, eating less oranges or something”.
The problem is that you’re making the mistake of using a data point right before the update that gave the leather farm. You’re essentially cherry picking the low point while completely ignoring exactly why it was low in the first place despite me telling you numerous times. It’s no different than the price of oranges going up because of a supply scare, going back down where nothing happened, and then you using the price difference to argue that orange prices were out of line because they were dropping.
OMG WTF are you even talking about. Leather prices fell because of the announcement of the leather farm area which nobody knew what it was going to be. They speculated it would be good for players and lower prices so they fell. I am taking prices from THE DAY BEFORE THE PATCH WAS ANNOUNCED.
Here’s me: Fact: the patch notes came out on 1/27, I am taking prices from the day before.
Here’s you: Making up some player numbers and making up what is going on with no facts whatsoever.You want an apples and oranges argument? Here’s my analogy using what you’re doing. The news comes out on 1/27 that a GMO orange is going to hit the market and yields are going to be huge. People start selling orange futures because they think prices will go down. You say “I haven’t taken any measurements, and I have no proof whatsoever, but people might be eating less oranges maybe”. Orange prices go down but it turns out the GMO orange doesn’t increase yields and causes cancer. Prices for oranges go back up. I am measuring prices from 1/26 when nobody realized the GMO orange existed. You are saying that’s not valid because of your super scientific opinion that “maybe people were like, eating less oranges or something”.
Of course leather prices fell because of the announcement. I’ve stated this numerous times with you not ever mentioning it or addressing it when I brought it up. I don’t know why all of a sudden you’re turning it around as if I knew nothing about it.
You’re cherry picking. You don’t just pick one data point from before, and then another after, to argue that prices are “worse”. You use multiple points over a time period to analyze the trend. Something that I thought someone with years of experience in finance would know to do.
You’re cherry picking a price point the day before the patch came out? Really? The announcement of the patch occurred well before then and the impact from speculators already had an impact causing prices to be lower. That price point is a poor choice to use as a baseline as to whether prices have gotten worse.
I never made up any player numbers. Please point out where I gave player numbers. All I said was that content releases tend to bring back players temporarily. There’s also increased player activity on those maps which drop the salvageable items that produce various tiered materials. I’ve also said that this impact was minor compared to the speculation.
Poor analogy which had nothing to do with what I was saying. You’re also over-emphasizing my statement about player population despite saying it was minor in its effect on the downward price compared to the farm announcements.
The problem is that you’re making the mistake of using a data point right before the update that gave the leather farm. You’re essentially cherry picking the low point while completely ignoring exactly why it was low in the first place despite me telling you numerous times. It’s no different than the price of oranges going up because of a supply scare, going back down where nothing happened, and then you using the price difference to argue that orange prices were out of line because they were dropping.
OMG WTF are you even talking about. Leather prices fell because of the announcement of the leather farm area which nobody knew what it was going to be. They speculated it would be good for players and lower prices so they fell. I am taking prices from THE DAY BEFORE THE PATCH WAS ANNOUNCED.
Here’s me: Fact: the patch notes came out on 1/27, I am taking prices from the day before.
Here’s you: Making up some player numbers and making up what is going on with no facts whatsoever.You want an apples and oranges argument? Here’s my analogy using what you’re doing. The news comes out on 1/27 that a GMO orange is going to hit the market and yields are going to be huge. People start selling orange futures because they think prices will go down. You say “I haven’t taken any measurements, and I have no proof whatsoever, but people might be eating less oranges maybe”. Orange prices go down but it turns out the GMO orange doesn’t increase yields and causes cancer. Prices for oranges go back up. I am measuring prices from 1/26 when nobody realized the GMO orange existed. You are saying that’s not valid because of your super scientific opinion that “maybe people were like, eating less oranges or something”.
you are putting in way too much effort for that guy lol, there will always be those who say “hurr durr I get all the leather I need after x hours of farming every day”.
Proof? Why should new players craft to get exotic gear when they can buy the named exotic armors? Don’t forget crafting itself costs a lot, and I would never recommend new players to craft.
Even when I was new running around Cursed Shore in green, I avoided crafting like the plague due the complexity and potential to waste money and materials. If we weren’t forced to craft with ascended gear, I would never do it at all.
I never tell new players to craft, because I feel they are wasting their time. And I’ve helped people plan how to get up. You know, I actually help newer players that you claim to want to help, so I know this is nonsense. .
I think this is the crux of the issue, though—should crafting be only an obligation for high level gear, not a reasonable (or even enjoyable) part of the game itself? Should new players be effectively barred from this part of the MMO experience, due to the cost? Is it good for the game that one major aspect of it is something that players generally avoid like the plague?
I don’t really have an answer to what role crafting should play in the game, but I’d say that the advice that you give new players to stay away from it and the fact that experienced players hate it enough to never want to do it except when they have to—well, these things are indicative that something is out of whack, that this is an aspect of the game that has a negative effect on players, and the leather price situation is the most egregious offender.
Proof? Why should new players craft to get exotic gear when they can buy the named exotic armors? Don’t forget crafting itself costs a lot, and I would never recommend new players to craft.
Even when I was new running around Cursed Shore in green, I avoided crafting like the plague due the complexity and potential to waste money and materials. If we weren’t forced to craft with ascended gear, I would never do it at all.
I never tell new players to craft, because I feel they are wasting their time. And I’ve helped people plan how to get up. You know, I actually help newer players that you claim to want to help, so I know this is nonsense. .
I think this is the crux of the issue, though—should crafting be only an obligation for high level gear, not a reasonable (or even enjoyable) part of the game itself? Should new players be effectively barred from this part of the MMO experience, due to the cost? Is it good for the game that one major aspect of it is something that players generally avoid like the plague?
I don’t really have an answer to what role crafting should play in the game, but I’d say that the advice that you give new players to stay away from it and the fact that experienced players hate it enough to never want to do it except when they have to—well, these things are indicative that something is out of whack, that this is an aspect of the game that has a negative effect on players, and the leather price situation is the most egregious offender.
mmorpg’s raison d’être is an offer of long term goals and the possibility of developing a character that will last for years, that is the genre. Crafting is part of this, you are offered long term crafting goals that you can aim for, aspire to and progress towards. The only thing out of whack is players who don’t understand this and want everything they can see when they think they are entitled to it, they demand it! Ultimately they try to bite their own noses of to spite they face – for short term exclusionary gain (pixels and numbers).
“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize
Proof? Why should new players craft to get exotic gear when they can buy the named exotic armors? Don’t forget crafting itself costs a lot, and I would never recommend new players to craft.
Even when I was new running around Cursed Shore in green, I avoided crafting like the plague due the complexity and potential to waste money and materials. If we weren’t forced to craft with ascended gear, I would never do it at all.
I never tell new players to craft, because I feel they are wasting their time. And I’ve helped people plan how to get up. You know, I actually help newer players that you claim to want to help, so I know this is nonsense. .
I think this is the crux of the issue, though—should crafting be only an obligation for high level gear, not a reasonable (or even enjoyable) part of the game itself? Should new players be effectively barred from this part of the MMO experience, due to the cost? Is it good for the game that one major aspect of it is something that players generally avoid like the plague?
I don’t really have an answer to what role crafting should play in the game, but I’d say that the advice that you give new players to stay away from it and the fact that experienced players hate it enough to never want to do it except when they have to—well, these things are indicative that something is out of whack, that this is an aspect of the game that has a negative effect on players, and the leather price situation is the most egregious offender.
The main reason I disliked crafting from the get go even when materials were cheaper and had actual uses like gaining levels when tomes were uncommon was simply the sheer complexity of the system, with all those components and things that can’t be deposited. And the prices on the TP were not that far off, so as a new player, I just can’t see they should have to deal with that sort of complexity for minimal gain.
Crafting is ultimately endgame content as it works. Mostly for those that choose to craft high end items which are too expensive for even casual, much less new players. And those looking to squeeze profits out and play the TP.
So are players really barred from crafting? Entry level crafting does exist in chef, after all. (And Jeweler to a small extent). And the weapons crafts. These things except for jeweler have great endgame paths if one were to partake in them. Leather is not going to stop a person from crafting. I don’t recommend people take that course, but that is just me.
When I was gearing my 4th to 6th toons— they were the last of mines that I traditionally leveled— I simply salvaged everything that dropped. That was enough for the characters to gear themselves. This was the time where mid-level leather/cloth went up in price thanks to ascended gear. With every equipment drop salvaging mats worth a few silver a piece, it was quite profitable given the effort.
This is why people have mid-level characters solely to open champion bags. They get more expensive mats!
tl;dr New players don’t need expensive mats. They in fact, stand the greatest chance of making gold off them relative to their current standings. Once they hit level 80 and start hitting 80 zones, they can just sell their leather, and all t6 things and get whatever they need.
Add in 2g dailies, and you may start to realize it’s easier now for new players to self gear.
Someone does 3 dailies and it’s a new piece of equipment with a good rune. That simply allows me to conclude that people that push the "think of the new players’ argument as at best misinformed and then it really becomes clear why people don’t have things.
For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards,
for there you have been and there you will long to return.
for there you have been and there you will long to return.
(edited by ArchonWing.9480)
mmorpg’s raison d’être is an offer of long term goals and the possibility of developing a character that will last for years, that is the genre. Crafting is part of this, you are offered long term crafting goals that you can aim for, aspire to and progress towards. The only thing out of whack is players who don’t understand this and want everything they can see when they think they are entitled to it, they demand it! Ultimately they try to bite their own noses of to spite they face – for short term exclusionary gain (pixels and numbers).
If people hate every minute of having to do a thing and it’s completely ill-matched for new players in spite of being nominally matched by level, then it’s out of whack.
MMO’s have to balance a certain measure of time commitment (which includes expense) and boredom versus player fun in order to make the game perpetual (and make the most money). Tip the scales too far in the direction of the player’s fun and the whole system falls apart, yes, but tip the scales too far in the direction of time/boredom and it’ll fall apart just as surely.
If crafting is only “endgame,” and people avoid it whenever possible (and it only makes sense for people to avoid it, economically speaking), then very likely it is out of whack in the direction of time/boredom.
no, people need to do what they enjoy. if you dislike something, take responsibility for your own tastes and do something you do enjoy. Mmorpg are not single player games where the game world rotates around you and a long term goal cant be a short term goal at the same time. a short term goal in crafting is simply a fast progress bar.
“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize
I would suggest taking a sledgehammer to the Gossamer Patch recipe before looking at any further changes.
no, people need to do what they enjoy. if you dislike something, take responsibility for your own tastes and do something you do enjoy. Mmorpg are not single player games where the game world rotates around you and a long term goal cant be a short term goal at the same time. a short term goal in crafting is simply a fast progress bar.
Reaching 400 in crafting should not be any longer-term goal than reaching level 80.
no, people need to do what they enjoy. if you dislike something, take responsibility for your own tastes and do something you do enjoy. Mmorpg are not single player games where the game world rotates around you and a long term goal cant be a short term goal at the same time. a short term goal in crafting is simply a fast progress bar.
Reaching 400 in crafting should not be any longer-term goal than reaching level 80.
then its not a long term goal in a mmorpg is it (ignoring the fact you can get to max level in a crafting discipline in less than an hour)
put it this way, if a player spends thousands of hours in a game, what should a long term goal be? (clue – not instant gratification)
“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize
(edited by vesica tempestas.1563)
HoT increased the sinks for leather with the introduction of patches. While the intention may have been to “level” the cost to craft ascended gear by raising the cost for everybody, the sink without a corresponding added source simply caused the price to climb as more players reach level 80 and want to go on and get ascended gear.
Now since they added the leather farm in LWS3E4, (which required HoT to access) it doesn’t appear to be helping. Now that can simply be players who run the farm using the mats themselves rather than sell them on the TP. Self interest over making a buck. But with the prices still increasing, not enough entrepreneurs have stepped up to farm yet.
However when one hand gives the other takes away, the “equalization” of cost of ascended gear in PvP and Fractals forces more players to level leathercrafting to 500 and then consume even more leather to make the needed grandmaster marks. What’s the point in adding a source if you are just going to add another sink?
My solution is to tweak the base refinement costs by adjusting the recipe for squares to get more than one square for a fix number of sections. Getting two or three squares out would allow finer than the 33% increase T5 and the 50% T6 had in refinement costs that happened because the output was one.
We are heroes. This is what we do!
RIP City of Heroes
RIP City of Heroes
For the people who think the leather farm is working, I will tell you, as someone with over 15 years of experience in finance, it is absolutely not working.
1) Increased supply should decrease cost for several reasons aside from direct selling into the market but also from reduced buy orders in the market.
2) Markets do not trade on what is going on now, they trade on where people expect things to go. For example, the leather market traded down before the farm even came out, then traded up when people realized the farm wasn’t going to impact pricing. So the idea we need to “wait and see” is false.
3) The other argument I often hear is “this was meant to stop leather prices from getting higher”. Well we’re at 2.70s on thick leather sections which is the most prevalent drop from the leather farm. If the leather farm can’t put a ceiling on the leather it produces, the ceiling theory clearly was wrong. Economically we will eventually hit a ceiling but considering thick leather is 2.70s and silk scraps are 0.75s, the ceiling needed to be 2 silver ago.
I think all of that is wrong. Increased supply doesn’t necessarily mean prices are affected (which wasn’t Anet’s goal anyways) and their is no desire for Anet to control market prices … they are exactly where they should be given the people that want to farm and sell leather and those than can’t be botherd. The idea that Anet implement changes as the game evolves in order to react to other changes they have made makes little sense, whether it’s the market or class balance.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
the actual real calculation is % of cost of an ascended item earned per hour all sources considered, then look at the player base and evaluate the ascended gear progression. That means looking at all sources of income and cost, not just items spiking.
“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize
(edited by vesica tempestas.1563)
no, people need to do what they enjoy. if you dislike something, take responsibility for your own tastes and do something you do enjoy. Mmorpg are not single player games where the game world rotates around you and a long term goal cant be a short term goal at the same time. a short term goal in crafting is simply a fast progress bar.
Reaching 400 in crafting should not be any longer-term goal than reaching level 80.
then its not a long term goal in a mmorpg is it (ignoring the fact you can get to max level in a crafting discipline in less than an hour)
Considering that leveling crafting is supposed to complement the leveling process itself (evidenced by the fact that the crafting system is tiered based on level), it’s not supposed to be a “Long Term Goal”
Yes, you can level a crafting skill in less than an hour – if you have the money and a guide. But that’s just catching up to competency if you’re an experienced player.
put it this way, if a player spends thousands of hours in a game, what should a long term goal be? (clue – not instant gratification)
Not Leveling Crafting. The game has plenty of other long-term goals that require leveled crafting (Acquisition of full ascended gear with stats tailored to taste, crafting legendary items, obtaining unique rewards like Mawdry, filling out collections), that fully unlocking the ability to craft should be no more a “Long Term Goal” than fully unlocking a character’s power (ie. reaching maximum level)
The problem is that you’re making the mistake of using a data point right before the update that gave the leather farm. You’re essentially cherry picking the low point while completely ignoring exactly why it was low in the first place despite me telling you numerous times. It’s no different than the price of oranges going up because of a supply scare, going back down where nothing happened, and then you using the price difference to argue that orange prices were out of line because they were dropping.
OMG WTF are you even talking about. Leather prices fell because of the announcement of the leather farm area which nobody knew what it was going to be. They speculated it would be good for players and lower prices so they fell. I am taking prices from THE DAY BEFORE THE PATCH WAS ANNOUNCED.
Here’s me: Fact: the patch notes came out on 1/27, I am taking prices from the day before.
Here’s you: Making up some player numbers and making up what is going on with no facts whatsoever.You want an apples and oranges argument? Here’s my analogy using what you’re doing. The news comes out on 1/27 that a GMO orange is going to hit the market and yields are going to be huge. People start selling orange futures because they think prices will go down. You say “I haven’t taken any measurements, and I have no proof whatsoever, but people might be eating less oranges maybe”. Orange prices go down but it turns out the GMO orange doesn’t increase yields and causes cancer. Prices for oranges go back up. I am measuring prices from 1/26 when nobody realized the GMO orange existed. You are saying that’s not valid because of your super scientific opinion that “maybe people were like, eating less oranges or something”.
Of course leather prices fell because of the announcement. I’ve stated this numerous times with you not ever mentioning it or addressing it when I brought it up. I don’t know why all of a sudden you’re turning it around as if I knew nothing about it.
You’re cherry picking. You don’t just pick one data point from before, and then another after, to argue that prices are “worse”. You use multiple points over a time period to analyze the trend. Something that I thought someone with years of experience in finance would know to do.
You’re cherry picking a price point the day before the patch came out? Really? The announcement of the patch occurred well before then and the impact from speculators already had an impact causing prices to be lower. That price point is a poor choice to use as a baseline as to whether prices have gotten worse.
I never made up any player numbers. Please point out where I gave player numbers. All I said was that content releases tend to bring back players temporarily. There’s also increased player activity on those maps which drop the salvageable items that produce various tiered materials. I’ve also said that this impact was minor compared to the speculation.
Poor analogy which had nothing to do with what I was saying. You’re also over-emphasizing my statement about player population despite saying it was minor in its effect on the downward price compared to the farm announcements.
Yeah but…hes talking about before the announcement…before…before…omg BEFORE this is driving me nuts reading this convo BEFORE BEFORE BE-FO
So why the hell are they ok with artificially forcing the price up to over 10 gold per exotic piece due to the asinine cost of leather?
Trying to fix a price for commodities always … ALWAYS … causes unintended consequences. That’s because markets (like the TP or the Dow Jones) operate under chaos mathematics. In other words, they can’t be controlled in a small way.
They CAN be controlled in a large way, and doing so just happens to have had the unintended consequence of high-priced leather materials we see today. They upped the requirements from 2 to 3 for most things.
But, they also upped the requirements for most of the other leather items, so that (and your post) gives me an idea:
They COULD try reducing just one tier of leather crafting costs, and see if there’s a migration towards upgrading materials at the Mystic Forge (due to having excess available at the next-lower tier). I would think dropping thick leather from 4 to 3 would have a small impact on hard leather prices, but without destroying the economy in the process.
What neither they (nor we, if we’re honest) want is a return to levels where the best thing you could do is sell leather to merchants.
(edited by Daddicus.6128)
Yeah but…hes talking about before the announcement…before…before…omg BEFORE this is driving me nuts reading this convo BEFORE BEFORE BE-FO
OMG thank you. I am so glad someone on here knows how to read.
If you do the AB Meta regularily and salvage all the greens and blues with an upmarket salvager, you get heaps of leather, and you can sell whats left to buy more leather.
Of course leather prices fell because of the announcement. I’ve stated this numerous times with you not ever mentioning it or addressing it when I brought it up. I don’t know why all of a sudden you’re turning it around as if I knew nothing about it.
You’re cherry picking. You don’t just pick one data point from before, and then another after, to argue that prices are “worse”. You use multiple points over a time period to analyze the trend. Something that I thought someone with years of experience in finance would know to do.
You’re cherry picking a price point the day before the patch came out? Really? The announcement of the patch occurred well before then and the impact from speculators already had an impact causing prices to be lower. That price point is a poor choice to use as a baseline as to whether prices have gotten worse.
I never made up any player numbers. Please point out where I gave player numbers. All I said was that content releases tend to bring back players temporarily. There’s also increased player activity on those maps which drop the salvageable items that produce various tiered materials. I’ve also said that this impact was minor compared to the speculation.
Poor analogy which had nothing to do with what I was saying. You’re also over-emphasizing my statement about player population despite saying it was minor in its effect on the downward price compared to the farm announcements.
Yeah but…hes talking about before the announcement…before…before…omg BEFORE this is driving me nuts reading this convo BEFORE BEFORE BE-FO
They cherry picked one point to use as a baseline. They said patch notes and not before the announcement. Going off the date that they gave, thick leather price had been stable and flat since 12/21. The price of hardened leather had been stable and flat since 12/29. All other leather had been stable since November. Again, this is from those dates up to the date that they gave.
So their argument that the leather price situation has gotten worse is wrong. Had they done their checking correctly, and not cherry picked a single point as a baseline, they would have seen this.
(edited by Ayrilana.1396)
this is hopeless.