Guild Wars 2

Whoa. I knew hard leather was expensive. But thick leather? Never mind, something needs to be done about that!

Thanks for the heads up, folks.

I love it … if anything, T5 leather drops in SIGNIFICANT abundance in Doric lake. I mean, there is nothing less reasonable than complaining about the price of something you can farm hundreds of as a zerg. How lazy can people get? You wanted a leather farm to avoid the expensive prices on the TP for leather, then there is complaining about the price of T5 leather on the TP … and it’s the MOST frequent drop in Doric Light … no wonder these complaints can’t be taken seriously.

Obtena.7952:

I love it … if anything, T5 leather drops in SIGNIFICANT abundance in Doric lake. I mean, there is nothing less reasonable than complaining about the price of something you can farm hundreds of as a zerg. How lazy can people get? You wanted a leather farm to avoid the expensive prices on the TP for leather, then there is complaining about the price of T5 leather on the TP … and it’s the MOST frequent drop in Doric Light … no wonder these complaints can’t be taken seriously.

And despite all that, barely anyone farms thick leather and at most there is 1 group going during peak hours. Obviously you’re the only person in the game that knows how economically beneficial the thick leather farm is. It’s definitely the best use of time and also the most fun.

Obtena.7952:

I love it … if anything, T5 leather drops in SIGNIFICANT abundance in Doric lake. I mean, there is nothing less reasonable than complaining about the price of something you can farm hundreds of as a zerg. How lazy can people get? You wanted a leather farm to avoid the expensive prices on the TP for leather, then there is complaining about the price of T5 leather on the TP … and it’s the MOST frequent drop in Doric Light … no wonder these complaints can’t be taken seriously.

That may be true but it’s not accruing on the TP or stabilizing/lowering the price. So either nobody wants to farm Lake Doric in general, leather farm specifically, or the usual suspects farmers are all doing SAB.

Obtena.7952:

I love it … if anything, T5 leather drops in SIGNIFICANT abundance in Doric lake. I mean, there is nothing less reasonable than complaining about the price of something you can farm hundreds of as a zerg. How lazy can people get? You wanted a leather farm to avoid the expensive prices on the TP for leather, then there is complaining about the price of T5 leather on the TP … and it’s the MOST frequent drop in Doric Light … no wonder these complaints can’t be taken seriously.

Who wanted a leather farm? I want leather to show up more often the NORMAL way so that I can get it. I don’t want to wait around in Lake Doric to see if enough people want to do the centaur farm.

Obtena.7952:

I love it … if anything, T5 leather drops in SIGNIFICANT abundance in Doric lake. I mean, there is nothing less reasonable than complaining about the price of something you can farm hundreds of as a zerg. How lazy can people get? You wanted a leather farm to avoid the expensive prices on the TP for leather, then there is complaining about the price of T5 leather on the TP … and it’s the MOST frequent drop in Doric Light … no wonder these complaints can’t be taken seriously.

I think you’re misreading, or maybe I am, the problem people have is with the price of leathers other than T5. If anything T5 is in a great if somewhat slightly inflated position, where as the other tiers, T6 in particular, is in a really bad position

If you want the price of thick leather or hardened leather on the TP to come down, then sell all yours and increase the supply.
I really wonder if ppl understand how the TP actually works.
This very same argument occured about 4 months ago regarding the mystic coin price.

mauried.5608:

If you want the price of thick leather or hardened leather on the TP to come down, then sell all yours and increase the supply.
I really wonder if ppl understand how the TP actually works.
This very same argument occured about 4 months ago regarding the mystic coin price.

In order to sell ours, we have to have a supply to sell. And there’s no point in selling it if we’re just going to have to buy it up again to use on what we were saving for.

Right now, Leather is an Economic Bottleneck strangling and artificially deflating the prices of Mithril, especeially Cloth, and even Wood because of the difficulty in acquiring it.

Djinn.9245:

Obtena.7952:

I love it … if anything, T5 leather drops in SIGNIFICANT abundance in Doric lake. I mean, there is nothing less reasonable than complaining about the price of something you can farm hundreds of as a zerg. How lazy can people get? You wanted a leather farm to avoid the expensive prices on the TP for leather, then there is complaining about the price of T5 leather on the TP … and it’s the MOST frequent drop in Doric Light … no wonder these complaints can’t be taken seriously.

Who wanted a leather farm? I want leather to show up more often the NORMAL way so that I can get it. I don’t want to wait around in Lake Doric to see if enough people want to do the centaur farm.

Who wanted a leather farm? Is that a serious question? Well, if people don’t want a leather farm, how hypocritcal is this thread? I mean … leather prices are too high … but people don’t want to farm the leather to avoid paying for it on the TP? None of that makes sense does it? Besides, you know as well as I do you get lots of leather just from events and stuff … you don’t need to do centaur farm to get leather, but that doesn’t matter if you aren’t willing to do much to get leather in the first place.

Sartharina.3542:

mauried.5608:

If you want the price of thick leather or hardened leather on the TP to come down, then sell all yours and increase the supply.
I really wonder if ppl understand how the TP actually works.
This very same argument occured about 4 months ago regarding the mystic coin price.

In order to sell ours, we have to have a supply to sell. And there’s no point in selling it if we’re just going to have to buy it up again to use on what we were saving for.

Right now, Leather is an Economic Bottleneck strangling and artificially deflating the prices of Mithril, especeially Cloth, and even Wood because of the difficulty in acquiring it.

Hold on … DEFLATING mithiril and wood prices? You guys need to check your facts.

I have some constructive feedback on leather prices too … if it’s not a price you are willing to pay, you have a great opportunity to farm leather … as intended.

Obtena.7952:

Hold on … DEFLATING mithiril and wood prices? You guys need to check your facts.

I have some constructive feedback on leather prices too … if it’s not a price you are willing to pay, you have a great opportunity to farm leather … as intended.

Spending Mithril and Wood also requires leather in a lot of cases (Though not as badly as cloth). So, yes. Because the low supply for leather down, it has also reduced the demand for everything that would be eating more plentiful resources.

The price is not one we’re willing to pay in the quantities we want, so we don’t use leather. As such, Cloth, Metal, and Wood recipes with a leather component languish because nobody’s willing to pay for the leather.

Farming doesn’t provide a reasonable quantity in a reasonable amount of time, so we largely do without. Meanwhile, the materials we’d like to use but can’t because we’re unwilling to pay for the leather either stockpiles uselessly, or gets sold off for far less than it otherwise would because people aren’t as willing to buy at higher prices because they too are stuck on the leather supply.

Sartharina.3542:

Obtena.7952:

Hold on … DEFLATING mithiril and wood prices? You guys need to check your facts.

I have some constructive feedback on leather prices too … if it’s not a price you are willing to pay, you have a great opportunity to farm leather … as intended.

Spending Mithril and Wood also requires leather in a lot of cases (Though not as badly as cloth). So, yes. Because the low supply for leather down, it has also reduced the demand for everything that would be eating more plentiful resources.

OK … but again, I will repeat, mithril and wood prices aren’t deflating; in fact mithril prices have increased recently, by a not insignificant amount and wood is maintaining it’s high prices that it’s had for over a year now. That contradicts what are you claiming should be happening.

You can claim a whole bunch of things, but the fact remains that if you want leather, you can farm it instead of buying it off the TP. I doubt highly Anet cares if you or anyone else does without leather just because you think the options you have available to you aren’t reasonable. That’s not a compelling argument.

Theres currently 15K+ hardened leather for sale on the TP, so its not as if its hard to get.
Too many players treat the TP as a kind of shop where everything has got to be “reasonably priced”, whatever that means.
Far too much of the "I want everything now " mentality, but I dont want to pay for it.

Sartharina.3542:

Obtena.7952:

Hold on … DEFLATING mithiril and wood prices? You guys need to check your facts.

I have some constructive feedback on leather prices too … if it’s not a price you are willing to pay, you have a great opportunity to farm leather … as intended.

Spending Mithril and Wood also requires leather in a lot of cases (Though not as badly as cloth). So, yes. Because the low supply for leather down, it has also reduced the demand for everything that would be eating more plentiful resources.

The price is not one we’re willing to pay in the quantities we want, so we don’t use leather. As such, Cloth, Metal, and Wood recipes with a leather component languish because nobody’s willing to pay for the leather.

Farming doesn’t provide a reasonable quantity in a reasonable amount of time, so we largely do without. Meanwhile, the materials we’d like to use but can’t because we’re unwilling to pay for the leather either stockpiles uselessly, or gets sold off for far less than it otherwise would because people aren’t as willing to buy at higher prices because they too are stuck on the leather supply.

Sorry, not seeing that.

HoT dropped on Oct 23, 2015 which was when most of the leather sinks were introduced.

So comparing prices from Oct 9th, 2015 (2 weeks before HoT) to April 7, 2017

T5 Mithral Ore – 54c then – 61c now – up 13%

T1 Green Wood Log – 1s2c then – 61c now – down 40%
T2 Soft Wood Log – 2s17c then – 1s96c now – down 10%
T3 Seasoned Wood Log – 2s55c then – 2s70c now – up 6%
T4 Hard Wood Log – 1s90c then – 2s13c now – up 12%
T5 Elder Wood Log – 82c then – 1s88c now – up 129%
T6 Ancient Wood Log – 7s66c then – 6s88c now – down 10%

Other than T1 and T6 Wood Logs, which aren’t used crafting T7 Spiritwood Planks, only T2 Soft Wood Logs are down and only by 10%.

mauried.5608:

Theres currently 15K+ hardened leather for sale on the TP.

There is currently only 15k+ hardened leather for sale on the TP. There’s over 100k each of Orichalcum, Gossamer, and Ancient Wood. This is a critical shortage.

Obtena.7952

I love it … if anything, T5 leather drops in SIGNIFICANT abundance in Doric lake. I mean, there is nothing less reasonable than complaining about the price of something you can farm hundreds of as a zerg. How lazy can people get? You wanted a leather farm to avoid the expensive prices on the TP for leather, then there is complaining about the price of T5 leather on the TP … and it’s the MOST frequent drop in Doric Light…

This is funny :-). Let’s see:
1. T5 drops in SIGNIFICANT abundance in Lake Doric (well, I wanted the old times when the T5 dropped in GW2 and not only in Lake Doric – not in abundance, but enough for anything I wanted to craft).
2. You can farm hundreds of these leathers as a zerg. Not by yourself, but as a zerg :-))
3. How lazy can people get? You wanted a leather farm to avoid the expensive prices on the TP for leather, then there is complaining about the price of T5 leather on the TP (OMG – do you ever read what you write? The players complained about the high prices. A farm point was invented. And now the players complains that the prices are even higher. Your conclusion – lazy people!)
4. and (T5 leather) it’s the MOST frequent drop in Doric Light…

Let’s translate this. The players complained that the leather is too rare for the numerous uses it has and something to avoid the high prices on the TP is needed. ANet invented the “farming spot” to help the players. And although the T5 leather is dropping in a SIGNIFICANT abundance (not in the entire game, but only in Lake Doric and only if you are in a zerg), and despite the fact the T5 leather is the MOST frequent drop in Lake Doric, the prices in TP are higher now. We can safely conclude that all the “farming spot” invention was a failure. The things are not better, are worst than before.. So, I don’t think the players can be blamed for ANet’s failures.

Lazy people?? Hm, maybe you are a new player and you don’t know the game, but GW2 has more maps, not only Lake Doric. And also, in GW2 you can do many other things, not only to farm. In the old days, by playing in any other map and doing any other activities you had the leather required for your needs. Without using the TP. Now, you can achieve this only by playing Lake Doric and doing the farm, but only if you are in a zerg.

Still consider this as a successful measure?

And a last mention: I don’t think the players ever asked for a farming in the case of leather. Remember that GW2 always had strict rules against the farming. The players acknowledged these rules. And not the players but ANet broke these rules first. The players asked for a reliable way to get leather. This is entirely different.

So, to answer your question “Who wanted a leather farm? ".
ANet wanted a leather farm. By this they openly admitted they made mistakes in the methods used to manage the leather. But instead of adjusting these methods, they preferred to invent this leather farm. In a game advertised by ANet as being against farming.

leather prices have spiked due to demand, other things have dropped, this is normal. Whats changed is that people think this warrants a complaint thread. If you want to kitten prices you need to evaluate all products, not just the item at the top of the demand tree at any particular time.

Cristalyan.5728:

Obtena.7952

I love it … if anything, T5 leather drops in SIGNIFICANT abundance in Doric lake. I mean, there is nothing less reasonable than complaining about the price of something you can farm hundreds of as a zerg. How lazy can people get? You wanted a leather farm to avoid the expensive prices on the TP for leather, then there is complaining about the price of T5 leather on the TP … and it’s the MOST frequent drop in Doric Light…

This is funny :-). Let’s see:
1. T5 drops in SIGNIFICANT abundance in Lake Doric (well, I wanted the old times when the T5 dropped in GW2 and not only in Lake Doric – not in abundance, but enough for anything I wanted to craft).
2. You can farm hundreds of these leathers as a zerg. Not by yourself, but as a zerg :-))
3. How lazy can people get? You wanted a leather farm to avoid the expensive prices on the TP for leather, then there is complaining about the price of T5 leather on the TP (OMG – do you ever read what you write? The players complained about the high prices. A farm point was invented. And now the players complains that the prices are even higher. Your conclusion – lazy people!)
4. and (T5 leather) it’s the MOST frequent drop in Doric Light…

Let’s translate this. The players complained that the leather is too rare for the numerous uses it has and something to avoid the high prices on the TP is needed. ANet invented the “farming spot” to help the players. And although the T5 leather is dropping in a SIGNIFICANT abundance (not in the entire game, but only in Lake Doric and only if you are in a zerg), and despite the fact the T5 leather is the MOST frequent drop in Lake Doric, the prices in TP are higher now. We can safely conclude that all the “farming spot” invention was a failure. The things are not better, are worst than before.. So, I don’t think the players can be blamed for ANet’s failures.

Lazy people?? Hm, maybe you are a new player and you don’t know the game, but GW2 has more maps, not only Lake Doric. And also, in GW2 you can do many other things, not only to farm. In the old days, by playing in any other map and doing any other activities you had the leather required for your needs. Without using the TP. Now, you can achieve this only by playing Lake Doric and doing the farm, but only if you are in a zerg.

Still consider this as a successful measure?

And a last mention: I don’t think the players ever asked for a farming in the case of leather. Remember that GW2 always had strict rules against the farming. The players acknowledged these rules. And not the players but ANet broke these rules first. The players asked for a reliable way to get leather. This is entirely different.

So, to answer your question “Who wanted a leather farm? ".
ANet wanted a leather farm. By this they openly admitted they made mistakes in the methods used to manage the leather. But instead of adjusting these methods, they preferred to invent this leather farm. In a game advertised by ANet as being against farming.

Nothing I have said changes … if you want leather you can farm it or you can buy it. There is even LESS reason now to complain about the price now than before Doric Lake.

Obtena.7952:

Djinn.9245:

Obtena.7952:

I love it … if anything, T5 leather drops in SIGNIFICANT abundance in Doric lake. I mean, there is nothing less reasonable than complaining about the price of something you can farm hundreds of as a zerg. How lazy can people get? You wanted a leather farm to avoid the expensive prices on the TP for leather, then there is complaining about the price of T5 leather on the TP … and it’s the MOST frequent drop in Doric Light … no wonder these complaints can’t be taken seriously.

Who wanted a leather farm? I want leather to show up more often the NORMAL way so that I can get it. I don’t want to wait around in Lake Doric to see if enough people want to do the centaur farm.

Who wanted a leather farm? Is that a serious question?

Yes, it is serious. You claim “You wanted a leather farm” but I don’t recall anyone asking for a “leather farm”. People asked for leather to drop at a similar rate to everything else. It could drop in the normal manner that we all get leather, it doesn’t have to be a “leather farm”.

Obtena.7952:

I have some constructive feedback on leather prices too … if it’s not a price you are willing to pay, you have a great opportunity to farm leather … as intended.

And no, it’s not a “great opportunity to farm leather”.

yes it is, by default. If you don’t want to take that opportunity, complaining about prices on the TP is moot. I mean, unless you are going to petition Anet to simply mail you leather every day …

You seem to believe that you should be able to define what you are willing to do to get what you want in this game, and I suspect any other game. I’m afraid that’s not realistic. You can justify any reason why you should be able to do that you like but the game isn’t built around what you think things should be like.

mauried.5608:

Theres currently 15K+ hardened leather for sale on the TP, so its not as if its hard to get.
Too many players treat the TP as a kind of shop where everything has got to be “reasonably priced”, whatever that means.
Far too much of the "I want everything now " mentality, but I dont want to pay for it.

People want similar things to cost a similar amount or be available in similar ways. There is ZERO reason why I shouldn’t be able to get the same amount of leather by gathering / salvaging as I get everything else.

I have actually stopped gathering Mithril for A YEAR because my characters are overflowing with Mithril. Why? Because I can see it on my minimap and simply go get it. That is the problem with the GW2 system, you have certain crafting materials that you can simply pick up off the ground, and certain crafting materials that you have to kill a mob for. BUT even if you kill the mob you have no guarantee that you will get the mat that you want. So if I want to gather T5 leather / cloth, I spend time in maps with mobs that will drop those items, but end up with a huge inequity of mats from those maps. I get all the metal I want, almost all the wood I want, and very little of the cloth or leather that I want even though it takes me longer to get the cloth / leather in the first place (adding up slightly longer to kill, plus time to salvage).

Obtena.7952:

yes it is, by default. If you don’t want to take that opportunity, complaining about prices on the TP is moot. I mean, unless you are going to petition Anet to simply mail you leather every day …

You seem to believe that you should be able to define what you are willing to do to get what you want in this game, and I suspect any other game. I’m afraid that’s not realistic.

I disagree. It is an opportunity by default. It is not a great opportunity.

Obtena.7952:

You seem to believe that you should be able to define what you are willing to do to get what you want in this game, and I suspect any other game. I’m afraid that’s not realistic. You can justify any reason why you should be able to do that you like but the game isn’t built around what you think things should be like.

I never said that, I said that’s what people wanted. Don’t put words in my mouth.

There are two ways to get mats in the game and leather is exceptional in those regards … you’re opinion of how good those methods are doesn’t matter and how you want it implemented has no relevance. If you don’t want to use the sufficient ways that are available to obtain leather … you do without.

I think the concept of providing constructive feedback for pricing that someone thinks is too high on a mat that can be specifically farmed at anyone’s leisure is absolutely ridiculous; people are free to choose from all the ways available to get leather they want. I don’t get how this isn’t enough unless we appease the unreasonable thinking being demonstrated in this thread.

I’ll add this to the discussion:

A couple notes about farming.

We’ll have to fix Auric Basin multi-looting in a future release. Shocking, I know. It’s a fun farming spot, but there are lots of fun farming spots, and this one is exploity and is trashing the ecto market. So consider this fair warning.

We’re trying to be as hands-off as possible with item prices, recognizing that players ultimately drive item prices by hoarding things they perceive as cheap and by unloading or farming things they perceive as expensive. On the other hand, it’s kind of unfair for us to say that about hardened leather, because there’s not a good way to farm hardened leather. So we also want to give this early warning that we’ll introduce a way to farm leather in a future release.

Mo

I’ll post an answer, but understand that this is an open discussion, and this is just my current thought. My thought is that we should as much as possible give players the tools to balance prices themselves. When items are consciously farmable through a specific activity, players get to choose whether they’re worth farming, and that choice is a vote on the market price.

Mo

Mainly because changing crafting prices has a HUGE impact in supply vs demand. Where as creating a place where people can farm x item creates a resistance which can keep a price in check. This creates a more self balancing system where reduces the amount used in a recipe is a static drop in demand which doesn’t often balance itself out.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/5e6uxb/a_crack_in_the_ice_devs_here_ask_us_anything/daa4e1w/

When reading this, ask yourself the following:

• What was the intent of the leather farm?
• What was not the intent of the leather farm?

Too many people who don’t understand how economics work expected the farm to suddenly cause the price to plummet. But to do that players have to do the farm and sell the mats they get from it. If enough players expect others to do that for them, we get the current situation. Those doing it are doing it for their own leather needs first and when that need is satisfied, they stop. Even if they don’t, anything sold on the TP is bought instantly, no chance to get in an undercutting war and without that, prices aren’t going to drop for the non-farmer.

And like I’ve already said, adding a new sink with PvP and Fractal players needing to level leatherworking to 500 and craft grandmaster marks isn’t helping.

Mo is wrong there – People don’t just hoard thing they see as cheap – they also hoard thing they see as too expensive-but-critical to sell… like basic crafting materials. Such as Leather.

The “Leather Farm” produces little to no leather.

Sartharina.3542:

Mo is wrong there – People don’t just hoard thing they see as cheap – they also hoard thing they see as too expensive-but-critical to sell… like basic crafting materials. Such as Leather.

The “Leather Farm” produces little to no leather.

See Mystic Coins. And while true, you need players not interested in crafting at the moment to farm and sell mats other than when it’s a daily. But if they see the price is very high, it’s true, they may choose to save/hoard rather than sell so when they do decide to craft especially when the price keeps marching up.

Sartharina.3542:

The “Leather Farm” produces little to no leather.

These anecdotes are not useful or true. What do you mean by this? It’s produced me LOTS of leather, and as a result, gold. This is true for anyone doing the same who is willing to farm it. There will be no reasonable discussion as long as people spout off these absolute, sensational ideas as factual.

The fact is that there is a statistical volume of leather that one can get from farming in Doric Lake. Whether that’s “little to no leather” is simply a matter of opinion. For a farming area that the game isn’t even supposed to have based on the game’s concept and compared to the previous methods to get leather from the open world, I would argue you get LOTS of leather from this area by farming it.

Obtena.7952:

The fact is that there is a statistical volume of leather that one can get from farming in Doric Lake. Whether that’s “little to no leather” is simply a matter of opinion. For a farming area that the game isn’t even supposed to have based on the game’s concept and compared to the previous methods to get leather from the open world, I would argue you get LOTS of leather from this area by farming it.

You said it yourself then. The farm isn’t supposed to be in the game, so for general purposes the farm will never work for the general public as the general public never farms and is used to buying on the TP.

For something you and others have been advocating the use of the TP for pretty much everything, but as soon as something that is totally not GW2 and opposed to that you jump to defend it regardless is completely irrational to me.

I didn’t sat that the farm would never work for the general public so … dunno what you’re getting at. From where I sit, it’s working really well. GW2 conceptually wasn’t supposed to be a game where you farm your mats, that doesn’t mean Anet can’t add them if they think they are necessary for specific mats. Holding on to ideals … just because, makes no sense.

Again, look at the reason presented by someone above for why this exists; there is little reason to argue with me about it and think you ‘win’ somehow when you try to make me contradict myself. The words from Anet are right there … it’s them you want to argue with. I defend the desicion to add a leather farm because it the reasoning Anet presented to why they did it makes sense to me; it would be foolish to keep foisting up these ideals as claims to why things Anet does is wrong. I for one, am glad to see that Anet is willing to examine specific situations and implement solutions to those situations, even if it means we have exceptions to the ideals you hold so dear that make these solutions completely irrational to you.

I don’t argue with whatever their intention is, because the result is obviously not working for players who are complaining here. It is irrational to me that you expect that there is less reason to complain just because you understand Anets reasoning, but you have zero clue about player reasoning.

You can defend whatever the intention is and what it is supposed to be, but if that doesn’t line up with player expectations or enjoyment then it doesn’t necessarily fail in that intention but it does fail for the average player.

You say there is less reason to complain, but you don’t even understand why players complain.

“The cost of leatherworking going from 0-400 is ~30G which is roughly on par with the other crafts using the other two materials. The difference comes with T6 which makes it ~70G to go from 400 to 500. It’s a little misleading to lump all leather together when the issue is just one specific tier.”

Yes, but a good chunk of the 400-500 expenses come from the Insignia (and some armor parts). For Leathercrafting, the raw required leather material takes ~ 50% of all expenses. For Tailoring the raw clothes material take ~1,7g of 37g, and surprise surprise, the leather parts around 10-11g. Not to talk about Armorsmithing, where 400-500 is a ta little cheaper (3-4 gold) than Fast Leveling 0-400

FrizzFreston.5290:

I don’t argue with whatever their intention is, because the result is obviously not working for players who are complaining here. It is irrational to me that you expect that there is less reason to complain just because you understand Anets reasoning, but you have zero clue about player reasoning.

You can defend whatever the intention is and what it is supposed to be, but if that doesn’t line up with player expectations or enjoyment then it doesn’t necessarily fail in that intention but it does fail for the average player.

You say there is less reason to complain, but you don’t even understand why players complain.

That outlook is completely unrealistic. Anet’s goal with the game has nothing to do with making sure that everything they do ensures that no player complains; that’s an unrealistic goal and a meaningless way for them to decide if a fix is needed. I know there is less reason to complain because the options were added to get leather.

We had farms already in game, mainly for foraging but there were areas with higher densities of ore and lumber nodes.

But I understand where Frizz is coming from. Leather and cloth were suppose to be farmed from salvaged unwanted drops or bags. How many discard white/blue/green rather than sell on the TP or salvage them?

But it’s not like there wasn’t a glut of T5 and T6 leather before HoT. Something needed to be down to absorb that glut. It’s just even though the glut is now gone, demand is still high, even higher with the push to 500 leatherworking as a requirement to ascended gear, other than raiding. I think the salvage amounts or refinement recipe could be tweaked a tad for the new reality. But that’s a big step and it’s a knife edge to get the balance right between glut and scarcity. The farm is a stop gap method to acquire what you need from play rather than TP.

This threads keep popping up not without a reason. T6 leather price is broken and some fixes should be done. The only people who benefit from the situation are old players with fully geared characters, who make a profit on obnoxious leather prices. The thing that makes me a sad panda is how hard some of such traders try to persuade the community that everything is all right and as it should be. Its just absurd. “Disreguard what you see on trading post, disreguard that sells of T6 leather droped on 50% since January, the stocks are filled with leather, leather farm works and everything is great!”

Obtena.7952:

FrizzFreston.5290:

I don’t argue with whatever their intention is, because the result is obviously not working for players who are complaining here. It is irrational to me that you expect that there is less reason to complain just because you understand Anets reasoning, but you have zero clue about player reasoning.

You can defend whatever the intention is and what it is supposed to be, but if that doesn’t line up with player expectations or enjoyment then it doesn’t necessarily fail in that intention but it does fail for the average player.

You say there is less reason to complain, but you don’t even understand why players complain.

That outlook is completely unrealistic. Anet’s goal with the game has nothing to do with making sure that everything they do ensures that no player complains; that’s an unrealistic goal and a meaningless way for them to decide if a fix is needed. I know there is less reason to complain because the options were added to get leather.

Did I say Arenanet need to make it so that no one complains? /facepalm.

Ider.1276:

This threads keep popping up not without a reason. T6 leather price is broken and some fixes should be done. The only people who benefit from the situation are old players with fully geared characters, who make a profit on obnoxious leather prices

And as one of these old players (btw still need ascended on some toons), my opinion doesn’t matter? I don’t need gold? See that’s the problem. I don’t see why I should have to accomodate for these percieved problems.

And new players can benefit as well.

ArchonWing.9480:

Ider.1276:

This threads keep popping up not without a reason. T6 leather price is broken and some fixes should be done. The only people who benefit from the situation are old players with fully geared characters, who make a profit on obnoxious leather prices

And as one of these old players (btw still need ascended on some toons), my opinion doesn’t matter? I don’t need gold? See that’s the problem. I don’t see why I should have to accomodate for these percieved problems.

And new players can benefit as well.

How do the new players benefit from this?

OriOri.8724:

ArchonWing.9480:

Ider.1276:

This threads keep popping up not without a reason. T6 leather price is broken and some fixes should be done. The only people who benefit from the situation are old players with fully geared characters, who make a profit on obnoxious leather prices

And as one of these old players (btw still need ascended on some toons), my opinion doesn’t matter? I don’t need gold? See that’s the problem. I don’t see why I should have to accomodate for these percieved problems.

And new players can benefit as well.

How do the new players benefit from this?

Much like any other t6, they can sell them. It’s the same reason why the high prices of low-mid leather/cloth benefits them for the same reason. It’s very easy to collect up gold as such when they have little practical use for these materials.

Same goes for things like mystic coins and crafting materials they get from the daily rewards.

See, while exotic armors was less expensive in the past, the ability to earn gold has greatly increased for players just starting out thanks to dailies and log in rewards. Back when I started out, armor might have been 2-3 gold a piece (wait it still is), but it was a lot longer to get 2-3 gold. Heck, 30 gold would get you a bunch of gems already.

But wait…. there’s also a lot of exotic armor that’s gotten cheaper. At 70s they’re not even that much more expensive than rares. Sure, they’re not good stats, but they’re still level 80 exotics. You can get a set of medium exotic rampager armor for 1.5g a piece, less so if light/heavy.

But you want to be meta. Okay. You can get level 78 exotic berserker armor for less than 80s a piece. Level 80 Zhed’s Gloves has 133 defense, 45 power, 32 precision, 32 ferocity. The level 78 berserker’s gloves has 129 defense, 43 power, 31 precision, 31 ferocity. Yea, it’s not as good, but for a new player that enters 80 zones, I really doubt that’s going to make a difference.

Finally, armor is not as important as the weapon and trinkets. This doesn’t mean one shouldn’t wear armor, but it’s not as big as a deal, if say you use rare armor for light pve. This is also why ascended armor is of low priority as well.

Anyone that brings new players into this discussion literally doesn’t know what they’re talking about.

But it doesn’t benefit them to sell it, becaue then they would need to buy it back again just to craft anything!

There is zero benefit to new players with these high leather prices. Zero.

OriOri.8724:

But it doesn’t benefit them to sell it, becaue then they would need to buy it back again just to craft anything!

There is zero benefit to new players with these high leather prices. Zero.

Craft what?

I added this to my previous post while editing, so in case you missed:

“But wait…. there’s also a lot of exotic armor that’s gotten cheaper. At 70s they’re not even that much more expensive than rares. Sure, they’re not good stats, but they’re still level 80 exotics. You can get a set of medium exotic rampager armor for 1.5g a piece, less so if light/heavy.

But you want to be meta. Okay. You can get level 78 exotic berserker armor for less than 80s a piece. Level 80 Zhed’s Gloves has 133 defense, 45 power, 32 precision, 32 ferocity. The level 78 berserker’s gloves has 129 defense, 43 power, ,31 percision 31 ferocity. Yea, it’s not as good, but for a new player that enters 80 zones, I really doubt that’s going to make a difference."

edited: Corrected stats

ArchonWing.9480:

OriOri.8724:

But it doesn’t benefit them to sell it, becaue then they would need to buy it back again just to craft anything!

There is zero benefit to new players with these high leather prices. Zero.

Craft what?

I added this to my previous post while editing, so in case you missed:

“But wait…. there’s also a lot of exotic armor that’s gotten cheaper. At 70s they’re not even that much more expensive than rares. Sure, they’re not good stats, but they’re still level 80 exotics. You can get a set of medium exotic rampager armor for 1.5g a piece, less so if light/heavy.

But you want to be meta. Okay. You can get level 78 exotic berserker armor for less than 80s a piece. Level 80 Zhed’s Gloves has 133 defense, 45 power, 32 precision, 32 ferocity. The level 78 berserker’s gloves has 129 defense, 43 power, 41 ferocity. Yea, it’s not as good, but for a new player that enters 80 zones, I really doubt that’s going to make a difference."

In addition to this “craft what?” There’s level 80 karma armor. The last level 80 I made I fitted out with karma temple armor (with beserker stats). I did no armor crafting or buying of leather at all to get him geared up.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

ArchonWing.9480:

OriOri.8724:

But it doesn’t benefit them to sell it, becaue then they would need to buy it back again just to craft anything!

There is zero benefit to new players with these high leather prices. Zero.

Craft what?

I added this to my previous post while editing, so in case you missed:

“But wait…. there’s also a lot of exotic armor that’s gotten cheaper. At 70s they’re not even that much more expensive than rares. Sure, they’re not good stats, but they’re still level 80 exotics. You can get a set of medium exotic rampager armor for 1.5g a piece, less so if light/heavy.

But you want to be meta. Okay. You can get level 78 exotic berserker armor for less than 80s a piece. Level 80 Zhed’s Gloves has 133 defense, 45 power, 32 precision, 32 ferocity. The level 78 berserker’s gloves has 129 defense, 43 power, 41 ferocity. Yea, it’s not as good, but for a new player that enters 80 zones, I really doubt that’s going to make a difference."

In addition to this “craft what?” There’s level 80 karma armor. The last level 80 I made I fitted out with karma temple armor (with beserker stats). I did no armor crafting or buying of leather at all to get him geared up.

To be fair, Karma takes a while to farm if you’re starting from scratch. For a new player, they’d need to have some level of gear so they can comfortably farm it at a good place, as well as merely reaching the vendors in Orr.

Anyhow, I made a spreadsheet plan on how to set up a fresh 80 assuming that you are new to the game and don’t have anything in reserve. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1LhXRuxjD5L0CFfLmx_e_lPyrIl5_dC6DOy5sa2Xkz40/edit?usp=sharing

It accounts for medium armor atm, since it’s the most expensive by a bit. Other types will spend a bit less.

I didn’t include the cost for weapons as it is variable, though I would recommend people get the best weapon they can afford and then dump the rest into the suggested list. Particularly cool people can use ruby orbs, and you could use whatever the hell orbs/runes you want, but I figured there should be some degree of leeway for new players.

Edit: Updated the sheet to have some weapon examples. So pretty much for a little more than 20-25 gold, you can character geared with mostly exotics and a full compliment of consumables. That takes about 2 weeks of dailies, assuming you played entirely passively.

The only gap between a character geared in full exotics is entirely the difference between 78 and 80 gear for the armor and inferior rune/sigil choices. This gap is bridged by the food, of which I’ve noticed most people don’t even use anyways.

And they don’t have to worry about leather at all, besides selling it. The only time it will be an issue is when they craft ascended armor of which is a small portion of the cost, or if they want more advanced stats to hit more intense pve content, but that would occur a lot longer down the line until they get more established.

ArchonWing.9480:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

ArchonWing.9480:

OriOri.8724:

But it doesn’t benefit them to sell it, becaue then they would need to buy it back again just to craft anything!

There is zero benefit to new players with these high leather prices. Zero.

Craft what?

I added this to my previous post while editing, so in case you missed:

“But wait…. there’s also a lot of exotic armor that’s gotten cheaper. At 70s they’re not even that much more expensive than rares. Sure, they’re not good stats, but they’re still level 80 exotics. You can get a set of medium exotic rampager armor for 1.5g a piece, less so if light/heavy.

But you want to be meta. Okay. You can get level 78 exotic berserker armor for less than 80s a piece. Level 80 Zhed’s Gloves has 133 defense, 45 power, 32 precision, 32 ferocity. The level 78 berserker’s gloves has 129 defense, 43 power, 41 ferocity. Yea, it’s not as good, but for a new player that enters 80 zones, I really doubt that’s going to make a difference."

In addition to this “craft what?” There’s level 80 karma armor. The last level 80 I made I fitted out with karma temple armor (with beserker stats). I did no armor crafting or buying of leather at all to get him geared up.

To be fair, Karma takes a while to farm if you’re starting from scratch. For a new player, they’d need to have some level of gear so they can comfortably farm it at a good place, as well as merely reaching the vendors in Orr.

Anyhow, I made a spreadsheet plan on how to set up a fresh 80, assuming you came in with nothing: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1LhXRuxjD5L0CFfLmx_e_lPyrIl5_dC6DOy5sa2Xkz40/edit?usp=sharing

It accounts for medium armor atm, since it’s the most expensive by a bit. Other types will spend a bit less.

I didn’t include the cost for weapons as it is variable, though I would recommend people get the best weapon they can afford and then dump the rest into the suggested list. Particularly cool people can use ruby orbs, and you could use whatever the hell orbs/runes you want, but I figured there should be some degree of leeway for new players.

Edit: Updated the sheet to have some weapon examples. So pretty much for a little more than 20-25 gold, you a character geared with mostly exotics and a full compliment of consumables. That takes about 2 weeks of dailies, assuming you played entirely passively.

True, it does take a bit of karma. That’s why I made sure to do any daily vistas at 1k karma/day as well as doing one Tequatl a day which give a player around 15k karma for the first one done that day and can be started around level 60-65 and can be done on level appropriate masterwork gear.

But that doesn’t account for ascended gear at all. A lot of people will eventually want to go for ascended gear for various reasons (min/maxers, skins, character progression, bored, etc…), and this does include new players. Even ascended weapons can now require large-ish amounts of leather if you choose to go the route of crafting weaponsmith marks and then buying the weapons. And if you ever want to change the stats on your gear, it requires T6 leather in large quantities for how infrequently its obtained through regular gameplay.

It does nothing but give players who are done gearing up their characters a bit of extra gold, at the expensve of everyone else.

And the fact that there are still posts being upvoted to the top of the subreddit about once a week about leather shows that large communities in GW2 are not ok with the price of leather either.

OriOri.8724:

But that doesn’t account for ascended gear at all. A lot of people will eventually want to go for ascended gear for various reasons (min/maxers, skins, character progression, bored, etc…), and this does include new players. Even ascended weapons can now require large-ish amounts of leather if you choose to go the route of crafting weaponsmith marks and then buying the weapons. And if you ever want to change the stats on your gear, it requires T6 leather in large quantities for how infrequently its obtained through regular gameplay.

It does nothing but give players who are done gearing up their characters a bit of extra gold, at the expensve of everyone else.

And the fact that there are still posts being upvoted to the top of the subreddit about once a week about leather shows that large communities in GW2 are not ok with the price of leather either.

We’re talking about new players, and you’re talking about ascended gear?

I’ve been playing for a few thousand hours, and not all my characters are using ascended armor. It is a luxury. Plain and simple.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

ArchonWing.9480:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

ArchonWing.9480:

OriOri.8724:

But it doesn’t benefit them to sell it, becaue then they would need to buy it back again just to craft anything!

There is zero benefit to new players with these high leather prices. Zero.

Craft what?

I added this to my previous post while editing, so in case you missed:

“But wait…. there’s also a lot of exotic armor that’s gotten cheaper. At 70s they’re not even that much more expensive than rares. Sure, they’re not good stats, but they’re still level 80 exotics. You can get a set of medium exotic rampager armor for 1.5g a piece, less so if light/heavy.

But you want to be meta. Okay. You can get level 78 exotic berserker armor for less than 80s a piece. Level 80 Zhed’s Gloves has 133 defense, 45 power, 32 precision, 32 ferocity. The level 78 berserker’s gloves has 129 defense, 43 power, 41 ferocity. Yea, it’s not as good, but for a new player that enters 80 zones, I really doubt that’s going to make a difference."

In addition to this “craft what?” There’s level 80 karma armor. The last level 80 I made I fitted out with karma temple armor (with beserker stats). I did no armor crafting or buying of leather at all to get him geared up.

To be fair, Karma takes a while to farm if you’re starting from scratch. For a new player, they’d need to have some level of gear so they can comfortably farm it at a good place, as well as merely reaching the vendors in Orr.

Anyhow, I made a spreadsheet plan on how to set up a fresh 80, assuming you came in with nothing: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1LhXRuxjD5L0CFfLmx_e_lPyrIl5_dC6DOy5sa2Xkz40/edit?usp=sharing

It accounts for medium armor atm, since it’s the most expensive by a bit. Other types will spend a bit less.

I didn’t include the cost for weapons as it is variable, though I would recommend people get the best weapon they can afford and then dump the rest into the suggested list. Particularly cool people can use ruby orbs, and you could use whatever the hell orbs/runes you want, but I figured there should be some degree of leeway for new players.

Edit: Updated the sheet to have some weapon examples. So pretty much for a little more than 20-25 gold, you a character geared with mostly exotics and a full compliment of consumables. That takes about 2 weeks of dailies, assuming you played entirely passively.

True, it does take a bit of karma. That’s why I made sure to do any daily vistas at 1k karma/day as well as doing one Tequatl a day which give a player around 15k karma for the first one done that day and can be started around level 60-65 and can be done on level appropriate masterwork gear.

Right, which is why I always recommend https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Scoop_of_Mintberry_Swirl_Ice_Cream as an easy way to boost your karma as well as having other beneficial effects.

And indeed, Teq is a great prelude to people heading to Orr, to level up and build wealth.

Edit: Wait why did it suddenly go up in price?

ArchonWing.9480:

And as one of these old players (btw still need ascended on some toons), my opinion doesn’t matter? I don’t need gold? See that’s the problem. I don’t see why I should have to accomodate for these percieved problems.

And new players can benefit as well.

So, why leather only then? Lets skyrocket the prices on all T6 mats because we (old players) need gold. And new players will have to grind silverwastes for weeks just to level up their crafting or craft gear with the stats they need. Oh, wait, I tryed to be sarcastic but failed. Now a new player HAS to grind silverwastes for weeks to level his craft.

I’m constantly trying to drag my friends into GW2. Its all fine untill they level 80 and start gearing up. But when they open up TP and look at the prices (which are obnoxious because of h.leather) their reaction is “OMFG to hell with this game”. New players don’t know what the hell is Zhed’s armor. They search “berserkers” and see armor 15g a piece. Then they ask me if it is better to try and level crafting and make that armor themselves. And I reply: “no, its even more expencive, but you must level your crafting if you ever want to play fractals with me, cause this 75g armor set (or 20g for Zhed’s, as I tell them) on TP is trash, and you need ascended”. And my friends leave the game, frustrated and fully convinced that its some kind of korean MMO where you have to grind countless hours to get the bare minimum to start playing (or donate real money and convert them to gold).

I might be okay with that whole situation. But when I start playing, there was no leather bottlenecking of craft. I was just playing, having fun and getting all materials I need to level crafting and get my gear. Now, for the new players, it is impossible.

So, sir, I can understand position of yours and Obtena. I do not respect it though. Mostly because I love this game, I want it to prosper, I want its community to prosper, and I want new players (and my friends) not to be scared away and frustrated. For me the health of community outweighs virtual profit of the few. But please, by the Six, don’t talk bulls*** about how current leather situation benefits anyone besides traders. Lets at least be honest.

If tomorrow hardened leather in gossamer patched will be nerfed to 2 squares, none of the traders will drop the game. You will just find some other thing to profit on, like mystic coins. But the new players will have a chance to start playing and enjoying the game as we, old players, did pre-HoT. And they will benefit the whole game thousand times more than your virtual, non-existant in reality profit.

Ider.1276:

ArchonWing.9480:

And as one of these old players (btw still need ascended on some toons), my opinion doesn’t matter? I don’t need gold? See that’s the problem. I don’t see why I should have to accomodate for these percieved problems.

And new players can benefit as well.

So, why leather only then? Lets skyrocket the prices on all T6 mats because we (old players) need gold. And new players will have to grind silverwastes for weeks just to level up their crafting or craft gear with the stats they need. Oh, wait, I tryed to be sarcastic but failed. Now a new player HAS to grind silverwastes for weeks to level his craft.

I agree, leave it to other people.

I’m constantly trying to drag my friends into GW2. Its all fine untill they level 80 and start gearing up. But when they open up TP and look at the prices (which are obnoxious because of h.leather) their reaction is “OMFG to hell with this game”. New players don’t know what the hell is Zhed’s armor. They search “berserkers” and see armor 15g a piece. Then they ask me if it is better to try and level crafting and make that armor themselves. And I reply: “no, its even more expencive, but you must level your crafting if you ever want to play fractals with me, cause this 75g armor set (or 20g for Zhed’s, as I tell them) on TP is trash, and you need ascended”. And my friends leave the game, frustrated and fully convinced that its some kind of korean MMO where you have to grind countless hours to get the bare minimum to start playing (or donate real money and convert them to gold).

So being a friend, why not just tell them there’s Zed’s armor? Problem solved. Or tell them about filters.

Or if they don’t want to do that, they can use level 78 exotic armor as I suggested above.

I’m really glad you decided to tell your friends to not even think of doing fractals with you unless they crafted ascended and exotic gear was trash for this game. (I’m sure you meant fractals?)There weren’t anything like low level fractals, and of course the fractals themselves were intended to be a grind. Maybe walk before running, do other stuff, etc.

See, when I tell friends, I assure them that they should gear as cheaply as possible while remaining effective in level 80 zones, with 2 gold a daily, selling materials whenever they get them, and most importantly just to play the game without any dedicated attempt at farming. Eventually, they’ll save up enough to pick their content of choice. I warn people up and ahead that certain content is grindy and they should avoid it, and we can do something else.

Most importantly, I tell them ascended armor is a marginal stat increase and a lot of work. Having that in mind, it is their choice to attempt for it. No crying.

No wonder why they left. It’s not the leather.

So, sir, I can understand position of yours and Obtena. I do not respect it though. Mostly because I love this game, I want it to prosper, I want its community to prosper, and I want new players (and my friends) not to be scared away and frustrated. For me the health of community outweighs virtual profit of the few. But please, by the Six, don’t talk bulls*** about how current leather situation benefits anyone besides traders. Lets at least be honest.

I wish you understood it.

See, unlike you, I speak for myself, instead of speaking on behalf of new players. And as indicated above, you don’t seem to be able to deal with them very well or understand what they need. I don’t think you should be acting on behalf of them for their interests. You’re probably going to do more harm than good.

Drop the sentimental downpour. I’m all for improving leather farms. But that’s with a purpose and not carried by guilt tripping people.

Ider.1276:

So, sir, I can understand position of yours and Obtena. I do not respect it though. Mostly because I love this game, I want it to prosper, I want its community to prosper, and I want new players (and my friends) not to be scared away and frustrated. For me the health of community outweighs virtual profit of the few. But please, by the Six, don’t talk bulls*** about how current leather situation benefits anyone besides traders. Lets at least be honest.

People like me can see that this is not JUST about benefits to traders. In fact, this leather farm is FAR more friendly to new players to obtain leather than anything else that has ever been ingame. How you can’t see how that fits in with exactly what you say you want, I can’t begin to understand. If you want people to start being honest in their discussions, then YOU can start by acknowledging this.

Do not attempt to create the illusion that the leather drops in Doric Lake has been implemented solely for the benefit of traders. That’s simply untrue for a few reasons:

1. Because Anet told us why they did it and had nothing to do with filling traders pockets.
2. Because the things that traders do has a profoundly important role in moderating prices on the TP and that’s REALLY important for new and veteran players.
3. Traders don’t farm mats to sell them to ply their trade.

Sentiments, especially false ones, do not make any point you are trying to make any stronger. If you are a leather farm hater, I have good news for you … you can ignore it’s existence and it will be completely transparent to your gameplay.

Obtena.7952:

People like me can see that this is not JUST about benefits to traders. In fact, this leather farm is FAR more friendly to new players to obtain leather than anything else that has ever been ingame. How you can’t see how that fits in with exactly what you say you want, I can’t begin to understand. If you want people to start being honest in their discussions, then YOU can start by acknowledging this.

Thread upon thread you are ignoring a simple fact: lake Doric centaur farm gives almost none T6 leather. So, being honest with each other, do you object this fact?

ArchonWing.9480:

Drop the sentimental downpour. I’m all for improving leather farms. But that’s with a purpose and not carried by guilt tripping people.

Anet should improve recipes or salvage rates, not the farm. In 3 weeks that farm will be locked behind another paywall (when LS ep5 comes in) from new players. There is no reason for leather to be more rare, expensive and obtained by farming in comparison with cloth.

See, unlike you, I speak for myself, instead of speaking on behalf of new players

I also speak for myself. I want reasonable leather aquisition or prices. I speak for my friends that are still playing this game. They want tha same. Should we make a poll or something?

Ider.1276:

Obtena.7952:

People like me can see that this is not JUST about benefits to traders. In fact, this leather farm is FAR more friendly to new players to obtain leather than anything else that has ever been ingame. How you can’t see how that fits in with exactly what you say you want, I can’t begin to understand. If you want people to start being honest in their discussions, then YOU can start by acknowledging this.

Thread upon thread you are ignoring a simple fact: lake Doric centaur farm gives almost none T6 leather. So, being honest with each other, do you object this fact?

I dunno … what OTHER farm are you comparing that to? Almost none compared to …? Correct me if I’m wrong but unless there is some other secret T6 leather farm Anet hasn’t told us about that you have discovered, the idea that Doric Lake gives ‘almost none’ is a completely meaningless thing to say without some kind of REAL comparison? Being ambiguous doesn’t support any argument you want to make here.

You come here and try to vilify traders for the reason that Doric leather farm exists, claims it doesn’t help new players. When you are trounced on those ideas as being ridiculous, you make some completely unquantifiable statement that can’t be proven or disproven either way … and that’s your approach to honesty?

This is HONESTLY what I think; ‘Almost none’ or ‘lots’, the amount of leather you get is rather irrelevant; it’s COMPLETELY subjective to the individual farming it. I think that if you can get enough leather to get you started crafting something from a run, that’s a good amount. Maybe you think you should have a whole ascended armor’s amount of leather from a single run. No one is wrong here. The fact is that, as Anet said (which you aren’t really educating yourself with here), that …

When items are consciously farmable through a specific activity, players get to choose whether they’re worth farming, and that choice is a vote on the market price.

That can’t be more clear to players … you can CHOOSE how you get leather as well as any other player. It’s not about volume or price. So every single time you complain it’s ‘almost none’, it’s an argument that make no sense in the context of why Anet has put this in place; it’s completely irrelevant.