Guild Wars 2

Hey everyone, let’s try that again. And remember, stay positive.

The proposition

If you actually wan’t to see some new features in the game (GUILD WARS 2) that allow players to select a game mode where the gameplay is harder than usual (Not necessarily insanely hard, Just harder.) then I encourage you to participate in this thread and share your idea’s.

The request
If you don’t, then please, you are welcome to read along, but I implore you to keep any opinions about how you don’t like the idea, to a minimum; Because that’s annoying and when people are annoying, people get annoyed.

Of course I invite everyone to discus, but please remember to be constructive.
Don’t just talk about how you don’t like every idea you see.

The reason

So, as I play the game, sometimes I feel like I am being challenged a little, but a lot of the time there really is either no challenge or not much of it. I don’t want to be faced with veteran mobs everywhere I go. I just want the normal mobs to be more challenging, more interesting, less predictable, more random, funnier, something different.

Division of the game population is not necessary. Not at all.
All that is really needed is an option for players who want to play a harder game (like a check box) and strength potions for every creature in the game. If the creature see’s that you are playing “hard mode” then they will drink a strength potion. If they see that you are playing hardcore mode, then they will drink three strength potions.

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EDIT START
— So then how do hardmode players play amongst normal mode players?
It’s simple.

• Creatures will have magical potions (metaphorically speaking) that make them STRONG and will work against hardmode players before the player is even able to make a hit against the creature. If anything “undesirable” happens, such as a player being defeated, the hard-mode creature will brew some green tea and go back to being a normal creature.

• Normal mode players will be able to come along and help the hardmode player defeat the EXTRA TOUGH monster. If the extra tough monster unleashes an AOE attack, worry not, continue reading!

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The following is just a ‘floating idea’.

• Hardmode players will be given a special MAGICAL BEACON that will HELP to protect NORMAL-mode players by blocking some of the damage that the normal-mode player receives, so that basically it will be as if the normal-mode player is being hit by a normal creature.

• When a hard-mode player is fighting a hard-mode creature and a normal-mode player comes along and starts attacking the hard-mode creature, It makes sense that the normal-mode players attacks will be less effective against the hard-mode creature, compared to normal.

EDIT END
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Random dungeon roles

I think it was LEO, who in the previous thread mentioned the idea of being able to select a certain MODE before entering dungeons, where GROUPS will be given a random set of roles. This means that groups can DECIDE if they want to do a dungeon the normal way, or if they want the game to decide for each player what character they will play. Nobody is being FORCED into doing anything.

I’m going to elaborate on what I think could work well towards this idea.
Most people in the game have more than one character.
Imagine that you want to play a dungeon where upon entering, the game will randomly select for your whole group a set of 5 characters; one for each person, (from the characters that you actually have).
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Now imagine that you are able to select a difficulty setting for this mode. And the easier the setting, the more likely that the set of characters that your group gets will complement each other and make it easier to take down creatures together as a team.
— > But if you select a harder setting, the game won’t bother trying to find a set of 5 characters that work together synergistically, and instead will just give your group a set of 5 characters with roles that do not necessarily work very well together.

In a natural scenario, no body is going to force you to play this mode if you don’t want to. And if you are given a role that you don’t like, the challenge is to bear the pain.

What I like about Guild Wars 2 is that although its within the “MMO genre” it takes heavily from action console and pc games, examples of course are downstate akin to gears of war, border lands, etc, the fact that projectiles have physical properties, you can completely side step a sword swing, etc.

The toxic tower was I think a pretty neat start into sort of going deeper and making those types of systems a little more pronounce. Toxic Sylvari go into downstate and their allies res them, they do things that us players can also do, some of the boss mechanics as you climb the tower had some behaviors that detoured cheddar tactics.

What I’d like to see in a Hard Mode is applicable modular gameplay elements that is relevant across the board in the entirety of the game. We players are capable of having various different trait setups, stat variances, weapons for each profession, utility skills etc. I would like to see this applied to mobs using a procedural method.

Example:

Bandit Catpurse in CM are known to be a “thief” archetype due to their use of dagger abililties like death blossom. How about we expand on that by giving them a “lore friendly” rune set to go with a stat amulet that is procedurally generated so they can go anywhere from a support nomads shadow arts p/p support thief all the way to a mug/sleight of hands d/p thief with scholar runes, or a higher sustain celestial d/d thief with runes of the pirate (lore friendly) all of which can be clearly analyzed in combat by the players to help them situationally paradigm shift on the spot based on how they’ve unfolded/analyzed their opposition on the battle field. An encounter that can never be fully absoluted because it will always be different for everyone and the only thing that players can really depend on is their firm grasp of CQC, and their ability to critically think and act on that thinking before someone gets killed.

Now that is just builds and stats. The next thing I would love to have in dungeons is AI akin to the opposition in games like KillZone 2 and 3. For those of you who never played those games, the AI moves around like people, when they take rounds they react to it. I would love to see mobs that really react to what you have done to them or what you are doing to their friends or anything on your side. Maybe Rifleman can actually line of sight, wait off the sniper shot cooldown and pop back out for another shot.

Dungeon, or other instanced content, sure some sort of hard mode is fine. Other than the idea of the game selecting which toon you will play. I play a character for a reason and the game should not dictate which I play. What if, even if level 80, their gear is not up to snuff? Traits still locked? Or I simply don’t want to play the assigned role?

In open world, you are rarely alone. How is that level 25 toon supposed to deal with the 3X Strength Potion enemy that has spawned because another open-world toon has hard-mode engaged? How is that fair? It’s bad enough when a swarm of level 80’s blow through early zones because of dailies.

And sorry, this is a discussion forum and you made a post. Expect opinions.

As much as I can understand the desire to not split the playerbase: I don’t think having hard mode players play alongside on the same map as normal mode players is possible. The reason for that is, that if you buff the enemy and it accidentally hits someone who’s not prepared for hard mode (eg a low lvl player) that player is most likely dead. This is bound to happen because there are enough mobs that use aoe-attacks and even melee-attacks hit everything in front of them.

Nerfing the hard mode player also isn’t going to provide challenging content. It’s just making the content tedious. The only viable solution I can see is making a separate hard mode map.

What I’d like to see for a hard mode map:
- Give every mob a series of characteristical attacks that you’d expect from such a mob, but that can really put a player in a dangerous situation (eg Centaurs having permanent +50% movement-speed and using a trample-attack, Ettins being able to knock you down and hold you there if you don’t have stunbreakers, Skelks having such a high regeneration that they’re almost impossible to kill without poison or a hard burst, etc)
- Give events a fairly high chance to fail if not everyone participating puts all their efford into it
- Make it possible to reach 100% World-completion in hard mode with appropriate rewards (skins, titles, mats)
- Make hard mode only available for lvl 80 characters (we don’t want new players to stumble through the gates of hell)
- Since hard mode is for lvl 80 only there’s no need for downscaling (hard mode Queensdale would be a lvl 80 area)

Hardcore mode (for those that can’t get enough pain)
- Same map as hard mode, but if you die you are forced to leave the map and your progress on that map is reset (except if you already had 100%)
- Unique rewards for achievements and map completion (possibly upgraded skins from hard mode)

Hard Mode dungeons would be fun, but it really matters how they handle it. To an extent higher level fractals are more fun and more challenging than lower level ones because of how hard the bosses hit. But the reason why so many people enjoy fractals even with the horrible loot, is the interesting boss mechanics. Hard Mode should not just be about mobs taking longer to kill and hitting harder, in fact it should not be about time at all. Instead it should be about mechanics.

Lupi is well known to be the most interesting to fight boss in the game. Sure part of it is because he isnt super fast to kill (In pugs without cheese mode) but its also because he makes you stay awake when you fight him.

Id like to see them add new mechanics to bosses in the game so when you activate hard mode they do new things as well as hitting hard. Make the spider queen spit out an unreflectable ranged attack that bounces between party members and makes them frozen for 3s. Give Lupi all of his attacks throughout all phases including locusts and make them hit harder and in melee range.

Hard mode will probably not get put into the game this way, or at least not for a very long time. They dont have a dedicated dungeon team and it seems like they are focusing on harder open world content rather than instanced. Also people would somehow conflate people wanting a challenge to excluding and dividing the community (blech).

Anyways i hope to see this but i doubt it will happen.

My guess is that hard mode would be just like GW1. Monsters are just stronger, more health, so just take longer to bring down. Otherwise, if Anet came up with new mechanics, why wouldn’t they apply them to the normal mode version as well?

But still, instanced hard mode with better rewards for completing would be a good thing.

@ Illegal chocolate, ill have to spend a little more time on your post before replying to it; it’s long =P and includes stuff I’m not so familiar with.

@ Dean BB. Do you understand the concept of the (Random role dungeon mode) idea?
The idea is that people WANT the game to select a random set of roles for their party.
If you don’t want that, then you won’t enter a group who is planning to play such a mode. It’s just the same as, if you don’t want to play fractals, then you won’t.
If a player is not up to snuff, then that’s tough. Although, players could also be afforded the opportunity to select which of their characters they want to be included and which ones they don’t want to be included, in case one of their toons aren’t up to snuff.

@Dean BB & BunjiKugashira

As for the hardmode mobs…. Every creature will be a normal creature. If someone who is playing hardmode runs up and attacks a creature, the creature will drink some potions and those potions will be effective immediately. If the creature defeats the player, the creature will brew some green tea, it will drink it, and the effects of the potions will wear-off immediately.

If a hardmode player is attacking a creature, there could possibly be some kind of visual indication for other players, warning them that they should approach with greater care. OR Maybe people who are playing hard-mode will be given special PROTECTIVE BEACONS that offer a shield for non-hardmode players, so that when a creature does an AOE attack, that SPECIAL shield will absorb some of that damage and prevent too much damage being inflicted upon the normal mode players. However, it probably shouldn’t make it easier for the normal mode player to kill the creature. The creature should probably be much harder for the normal mode player to kill, Unless the hardmode player dies and the hardmode creature brews some green tea and settles down.

If somebody dies in the game, then? There is nothing I can really say other than to offer my sincerest condolences. I am a well practiced violinist, perhaps you would like me to play my tiny violin for you to cheer you up? =D

Notorious Dog.1043:

@ Illegal chocolate, ill have to spend a little more time on your post before replying to it; it’s long =P and includes stuff I’m not so familiar with.

@ Dean BB. Do you understand the concept of the (Random role dungeon mode) idea?
The idea is that people WANT the game to select a random set of roles for their party.
If you don’t want that, then you won’t enter a group who is planning to play such a mode. It’s just the same as, if you don’t want to play fractals, then you won’t.
If a player is not up to snuff, then that’s tough.

@Dean BB & BunjiKugashira

As for the hardmode mobs…. Every creature will be a normal creature. If someone who is playing hardmode runs up and attacks a creature, the creature will drink some potions and those potions will be effective immediately. If the creatures defeats the player, the creature will brew some green tea, it will drink it, and the effects of the potions will wear-off immediately.

If a hardmode player is attacking a creature, there could possibly be some kind of visual indication for other players, warning them that they should approach with greater care.

If somebody dies in the game, then? There is nothing I can really say other than to offer my sincerest condolences. I am a well practiced violinist, perhaps you would like me to play my tiny violin for you to cheer you up? =D

If a hardmode player is attacking a creature depending on the gear there is no creature left to drink any potions. Also hard mode means that every creature you run past is harder, not only the one you’re primarily attacking. I’d even go as far as making mobs see hard mode players earlyer and over a greater range.

And while it might be acceptable for a hard mode player to die over and over again, the typical casual normal mode player doesn’t want to stress anything. And if you have an event with 50 harpies, 3 or 4 players and one of them is hard mode and aoe-attacks every harpie, then the other players are going to have a problem. There should never come a situation in witch a normal mode player is forced to fight a hard mode mob. And that’s just impossible if normal mode player and hard mode player are fighting against the same mob.

As for the random-dungeon mode: I wouldn’t play it and I don’t think many players like being forced to play their mesmer that they only have to port some jps. Then again, if this mode ever becomes a thing, I’m just going to ignore it.

There is no creature left to drink any potions? Do you mean like “there is no spoon”? -> referenced from the matrix movie.
Or do you mean to say that a hardmode player is so strong that he will one shot all mobs before they’re able to get their potion out of their pockets? If that is what you mean, then worry not. The potions are MAGIC potions that are drunk before the creatures are able to sustain a heavy blow from a player who has good gear.
It’s MAGIC.

Why exactly do you say that EVERY creature must be hard? What’s the point in that?
If we are to avoid splitting the population, then every creature must be normal. And when a hardmode player is engaged in combat with a creature, the magical potions begin working immediately.

Bunji The thing I said about “mobs drinking potions”, that is only a metaphor. But sure, they could make an animation showing mobs actually drinking potions, why not.

Mobs able to see hardmode players from further away? That’s probably a good idea.

Bunji I have edited my previous post a little bit. What you have just stated as being IMPOSSIBLE, has been proven to be possible, Just re-read my previous post.
… Look for the part with the protective beacon.

And can we please all agree on something.
You can’t be forced into doing something which you agree to do.
Why are people saying that they don’t want the game to FORCE them into a certain role? If you are going to play the mode, it means that you SHOULD have accepted the fact that the game might give you a role which you REALLY hate.
But if you can’t accept that, then just don’t play that mode.

dropped this idea out a couple of months ago (dont necro it, just post on this topic)

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/suggestion-Elite-Map-Completion/first#post4694846

here is another topic from about 3 months ago that had several very nice suggestions with various hard mode ideas (its at least 3 pages worth of posts)(also, dont necro this one, its an infractable offense IIRC)

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/The-Case-for-a-PvE-Hard-Mode/first

The problem still persists: Have one hard mode player tag every mob in an event and it will be much harder to complete for all normal mode players that just want a relaxed post-work farm.

Now from the direction I see you going I’d guess your next solution would be making the same attack affect hard mode players and normal mode players in different ways. That way the normal mode player won’t see any difference while the hard mode player has a challenge. This however is no different to nerfing the hard mode player. You can already have that by playing naked. Once you start editing the mob’s skillset the normal mode players will be affected and they most likely won’t like it.

And always remember: If there is a possibility to make life harder for someone else, then the trolls emerge from their caves and start making the game miserable for everyone. (Yes, I’ve lost faith in humanity a long time ago)

Drinking potions is a daft idea, not sure you actually meant it quite literally. After all the idea of a wolf or crab drinking a potion is quite ridiculous.

There are plenty of players that don’t find it easy as it is (world content) as I have to res them on occasions. Even die myself on occasions usually due to multiple mobs.

Although I’m against anything that involves better loot. Better loot and gear focused is one of the major failings in WoW imo. One of the things I like about GW2 is its not really gear focused I also hope that they keep characters at level 80.

So any hard mode should not reward better gear. But I don’t think they actually need a hard mode as you can make it more challenging by fighting harder mobs or just more of them.

@ Azala Yar Yep, the strength potion idea is a metaphor.
Fighting more mobs? that’s exactly what I do.
And I agree about the loot comment. I don’t think that receiving better loot should be the motivator here, the motivation for people should be the desire for more challenge.
Or rather, not necessarily more CHALLENGE, MORE RISK

It’s “RISK” that makes us feel like we’re living on the edge. That’s what’s exciting.

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BunjiKugashira.9754:

The problem still persists: Have one hard mode player tag every mob in an event and it will be much harder to complete for all normal mode players that just want a relaxed post-work farm.

Now from the direction I see you going I’d guess your next solution would be making the same attack affect hard mode players and normal mode players in different ways. That way the normal mode player won’t see any difference while the hard mode player has a challenge. This however is no different to nerfing the hard mode player. You can already have that by playing naked. Once you start editing the mob’s skillset the normal mode players will be affected and they most likely won’t like it.

And always remember: If there is a possibility to make life harder for someone else, then the trolls emerge from their caves and start making the game miserable for everyone. (Yes, I’ve lost faith in humanity a long time ago)

Hard-mode players won’t be nerfed.

Hard-mode (lets call it HM)

HM mobs will simply have strength potions and they will hit harder. Normal mode players wont
be affected because the hardmode players are responsible and they will carry protective beacons that will protect normal mode players from extra damage.

As for events, and how to solve the problem of HM players tagging every mob and changing the situation for NM players.. hmm, I haven’t thought of that yet.
Maybe the solution for this could simply be that, in events, the only change for HM players is that the mobs hit them harder, making it much more likely for a HM player to be defeated, forcing them to be much more careful, and LESS likely to foolishly run in and TAG every monster.
So then if the only change in events (for HM players) is that creatures hit HM players harder, everything stays the same for NM players.

Right?

Although, maybe that should be the way it works all round? I can imagine how certain people might want to make life harder for other people by running around and tagging creatures before a NM players attack them, to make it harder for them.

So yes, maybe the only change for HM players should be that the creatures drink strength potions when engaging in combat with them. (remember, NM players can come and play like normal, because the protection beacons that HM players would wear will protect them)

I do want some challenging content, I love doing content that pushes me. However… not all the time, and I feel safe saying that’s the normal take on it. Challenge is fun, but not ALL the time. That’s where things get tricky.

I like the analogy of challenging content in an MMO being like a vegetarian/vegan option at a steakhouse. It’s surely not what brings customers in the door but having it there allows people to have fun without excluding people who aren’t there for the bulk of it.

If you like a challenge, here we have it, but it’s not our main goal.

That’s the take I think games need to have, it needs to exist but spending a bunch of time on it simply doesn’t make sense.

With that and this “potion” idea, I’m curiuos if they could do something a bit reverse of the OP’s thoughts. We take potions, if we have “hard mode” activated (potions to swap purchased in any city) we get greatly increased magic find from kills but enemies would have additional effects on their attacks that only activate when hard mode is on. So say Lupi in addition to his normal attacks if you get clipped by a Frenzied Blast hit you’d get a long duration chill. If you get hit by a lifesuck a locust would form. Get kicked and it’d do double damage ensuring a death. /shrug just a thought at something that might be less work and a bit more reasonable to implement without sucking other players into it who might not want the hard mode.

As for the “just play naked” /shrug your defenses are already very low with zerk, you’re basically just making things last longer which isn’t much fun IMO. Larger HP pools and simply harder hits generally don’t promote a fun challenge nearly as much as increased effects and making you react differently than just the standard “don’t get hit, and hit it” that you’re alraedy doing.

If you plan to increase the mobs damage and decrease it again by giving a shield you can simply leave the mob normal. No need for any fancy potions or buffs. Make hm players take more damage and deal less damage and you have the same result. Still that isn’t what I’d call hardmode. Sure, other games with dynamic difficulty-settings have gone that way, but only adjusting incoming and outgoing damage is the lazyest way I can imagine to implement different difficulties.

Risk is the best incentive to creating challenging content.

Going to be lazy with this, tired.

*Perma death or perma death penalty(level/stat reduction),
*Gear having perma durability(IE when it is destroyed it is gone),
-Can be repaired so many times before destroyed.
-Repairing costs money(or requires a Crafting discipline but still costs mats).
*Player scaled lower than normal within a map,
-3-7 Levels below current scaling
*WPs are unusable, however Asura gates still active.
-Can allow limited “teleportation ability”. To avoid stuck situations.
-Give HM players 2-3 stones that they can set and teleport to. Obvious long CD or limitations.
*Negative Conditions last longer for HM players.
-Self condi removals have longer CD.
-Group condi condi removals have less effect.
*Group Buffs have less effect on a HM player.
-Self buffs have a short duration.
*HM characters being “disconnected” from account links,
*Limitations on TP use, mail, and trading(to avoid abuse)
*Traits are open from start but locked after being set.
-Resetting costs money
-Switching individual traits cost less or nothing.

BunjiKugashira.9754:

If you plan to increase the mobs damage and decrease it again by giving a shield you can simply leave the mob normal. No need for any fancy potions or buffs. Make hm players take more damage and deal less damage and you have the same result. Still that isn’t what I’d call hardmode. Sure, other games with dynamic difficulty-settings have gone that way, but only adjusting incoming and outgoing damage is the lazyest way I can imagine to implement different difficulties.

Sometimes the laziest way is the best way.

Also, this topic is here to let the developers know that there ARE indeed people who want more challenge. And it’s here for those people who want this, but didn’t necessarily want to start their own topic about it.

There could be NUMEROUS other ways of making mobs harder.
They could simply hit harder, they could hit faster, they could be more sneaky, they could call their friends and gang up on you, they could throw honey at you and have an angry swarm of bees attack you.

Well, I’d suggest for hardmode:
Make them use an updated skill set, with a regular autoattack and normal combat speed, half telegraph duration.
Make them downable, with need to finish, and make them ressable by allies.
Make them evade, move out of AOE’s but more vulnerable to CC’s
Make them worthwhile. each day looting white, blues a couple of greens, a sporadic yellow and a scarce orange could be lifted 1 step.
Make them use agony, not lvl 50 fractals like, but 30-ish.

If you want an über level go 2 level higher and make it lvl 50 fractals like agony,
Add all bosses full cc-able, but counter CC-ing and cleaning, buffing and resable/healable/regenable so the party must remain alive.
Add multiple random heavy attacks instead of 1 or 2 normal chained attacks. Quarter duration telegraphs
-20% CD on skills…
random/added bosses: AC gravling burrow room with The Spider King?

Make the character have +50% endurance regen in both modes, a dodge for every 6,5s. and even this modifiable by vigor for a dodge every 4,5 seconds, and a 33% faster recharge on cleanses and heals. leave traits and skills as is.

For world… I already hope we will see higher toughness enemies and condition requiring bosses mixed in. I hope the HoT meta will ask for an inclusion of condition/hybrid classes in parties, mixed with DPS, this will reduce the DPS platform, especially in instances and will create more difficulty… I hope.

Why not adapt the Gambit system from the Pavilion?

For example, at Waypoints you’re able to add / remove a number of Gambits to your character. For example:

• Exahustion – Reduces Endurance regen by x%.
• Frailty – Increases incoming damage by x% and condition duration by x%.
• Cursed – Reduces Boon Duration by x%.
• Diseased – For the duration of a fight, you’re inflicted with Potent Poison, reducing incoming healing by 60% .
• Blindsided – Critical hits against you stun you for 1 second.
• Unprepared – Increases skill cooldown by x%.

and so on.

Also upon death – not Downed – your event contribution gets reset to 0 in order to help prevent players stacking Gambits for the bonuses, getting their contribution in and then dying because they aren’t playing safe.

I feel suggestion posts for certain ideas don’t get enough attention consider a lot of the complaints that drown the forums. I start to think that people mainly just like to whine or argue. You can criticize ideas without being argumentative, it’s not hard people. I mean, considering all the people that go out of their way to challenge themselves, utter how easy the game is, and the like seems to describe a necessity for discussions into solving such things.

Notorious Dog.1043:

EDIT START
— So then how do hardmode players play amongst normal mode players?
It’s simple.

~snip~

EDIT END

Going to try to bounce an idea off of this.

Ditch the whole “strength potions” analogy. People are getting caught up on it and it’s causing difficulty with expanding the idea. I know the idea is only a generalized springboard but I think you’re boxing yourself in to get feedback.

How about this? Let’s say you go to a zone who has kind of boss who’s trying to kill you (maybe he’s stuck in the mists and needs sacrifices to swap places with) so he curses you (upon choosing hardmode, you become cursed). This alters certain mobs when they encounter you. What does that alteration do? I dunno, but it’s hardmode so it’ll be harder. Players that aren’t cursed? They will experience the mob change to AI but the tough part would be the moves they use have particular effects against “cursed” players. The results meant by that idea are:

- cursed players would have a harder time dealing with these mobs’ attacks and these players’ attacks would have certain affects either to mobs or other players around them not cursed.
- players that aren’t cursed will occasionally witness a boost in the effectiveness of the mobs’ AI and attack patterns when a cursed player is present which might be slightly countered by the fact they do not get the same harsh effects from the enemy attacks and might even get buffed by cursed player attacks connecting with mobs. Regardless, these non-hardmode players might see an increase in difficulty but that isn’t a bad thing!
- to limit how often normal players can aid cursed players, there would be areas or even shards of a map that only cursed players can pass through to face difficult Champions and World Bosses.

The idea incorporates both open-world and instance portions of the map for certain challenges as well as the various mechanics one might witness in Silver Wastes.

Random dungeon roles
~snip~

As an aside, I didn’t quite suggest this as a mode for dungeons. It was actually ambiguous as the idea wasn’t quite developed but was merely a building block. It could simply be a mode for a group jumping puzzle that has various objectives and limits the types of skills to retain some of the challenge…or it could be an open world guild-type event (they already have these that do this very thing! I just suggest having the skills given be random sets of your own skills rather than whatever gimmick specific to the challenge). You could then make a short laundry list of things your guild has to do on the map while maintaining that build. Or yeah, it could be a dungeon mode implemented over current dungeons, perhaps with a few added encounters or challenge objectives.

The idea isn’t so much to put you in a role, but to force you to adapt to changing situations and circumstances. Consider that dungeons can actually be kind of tough when you first do them. What makes them easy is after you learn them, you can thus optimize your strategy to overcome it more efficiently. You can still do that if you’re given a random Elementalist build on your Ele…you might even be given Ice Bow!…but it might come along with Earth Shield and Flame Axe and your heal skill being Ether Renewal.

I guess to some, that sounds like a bummer but I do it all the time. I mean, those skills can be used in encounters and accomplish the same goals…might not be optimized but they are my skills and knowing how to use them is about as important as other players and my teammates knowing and understanding my skills.

The venerable CoX had a system whereby mobs could be faced by characters of any level, and be appropriately tough for each in turn. They did damage to you and took damage from you as if they were mobs appropriate to your level, whether that was 5 or 50. it seems to me that it would be possible to use such a system and apply it to a normal/hard mode toggle selected by the player. Pick normal, face one set of stats, pick hard, face a much less forgiving set.

Adjusting mob numbers (passive) in this fashion would allow for players to play together whether they’ve selected normal or difficult (sigh, kitten filter). Once you get into mob behaviors or skill sets being different based on mode, you’re talking splitting the player base into normal and hard versions of instances. I don’t have a problem with that, but I suspect ANet does.

Notorious Dog.1043:

BunjiKugashira.9754:

If you plan to increase the mobs damage and decrease it again by giving a shield you can simply leave the mob normal. No need for any fancy potions or buffs. Make hm players take more damage and deal less damage and you have the same result. Still that isn’t what I’d call hardmode. Sure, other games with dynamic difficulty-settings have gone that way, but only adjusting incoming and outgoing damage is the lazyest way I can imagine to implement different difficulties.

Sometimes the laziest way is the best way.

Also, this topic is here to let the developers know that there ARE indeed people who want more challenge. And it’s here for those people who want this, but didn’t necessarily want to start their own topic about it.

There could be NUMEROUS other ways of making mobs harder.
They could simply hit harder, they could hit faster, they could be more sneaky, they could call their friends and gang up on you, they could throw honey at you and have an angry swarm of bees attack you.

As far as I understood this thread is about how we’d like to have hardmode implemented (which ofc doesn’t mean ANet has to listen to any of this).

Also in this case the easyest method isn’t the best. It doesn’t really make the game much harder, it just makes hardmode players more useless. You deal less damage and take more. Try removing your armor and see what it’s like. That’s not what I’d want to see as a hard mode. Also what’s the point of increasing the damage you take from an ettin if you never get hit by it?

Try playing Skyrim first on insane difficulty and then with the requiem mod installed. That’s the difference between tanky, harder hitting mobs and truly challenging content. Hard content means you need a strategy for each encounter (one that is not hit harder and more often yourself to compensate the difficulty settings). It means learning about your opponents strengths and weaknesses and utilizing what you have to exploit them. And that’s something you can’t do while on the same map as normal mode players (for reasons that were already stated).

Good input everyone

@ Bunji .. Thanks, but I must say one thing. First of all, As most (or rather, some) people I’m pretty intelligent, especially if I put a lot of focus on something. (This is not an insult or anything)
I say this because I want you to know that these things you’re telling me are generally things which I have pretty much already glanced over in way of thought. The problem is that I don’t consider it a day job to come up with ideas for a game that aren’t necessarily going to be used. Do you know what I’m saying? I’m not a developer.

Sure, I could spend a whole day, or week, thinking about it, thinking of how it could be done in a proper way with lots of details, but just as you said that you have lost faith in humanity, I have also learned something, that it’s not nice to waste energy.
It sucks when you work kitten something and then you find out it was all for nothing.
Anyway, don’t lose complete faith in humanity, a lot of people out there may be lacking a little bit, but not everyone is. It truly is a fight. (For power, unfortunately)

Anyway, A good way to describe what I think a lot of other people might agree with when talking about a “Hard mode”, is to say that we want something that makes us think before jumping into battle. Harder mobs that force us to pause for a moment before initiating combat, to see if starting a fight with that mob is going to be worth it, or if we’re possibly about to bite off more than we can chew.

We wan’t to feel like we are on the edge, like we are risking LIFE OR Defeat.
We want stuff that invokes feelings, And not bad feelings (we can go and talk to trolls on youtube for that) We want a greater sense of adventure, and that comes with greater risk (or at least perceived risk)

How about a mob that has some hidden dog kennels, and when they are close to death, a pack of dogs run at you, and most likely kill you?
Death isn’t all that great, but this is a game, you don’t die here..

If the game had a lot more rare mobs, these rare mobs could have unique attacks which would possibly introduce more challenge for some players, because when something is unique, it is unknown and players will most likely be unprepared for whatever it is that is waiting for them.

Maybe some mobs could have special identifiers (letting players know that they have some special kind of loot, Maybe a skill point?) and for example, a unique combat tactic could be that this mob runs away and leads you into a sophisticated trap of some sort?

UPDATE

Hi, In the interest of not letting this thread die… and so on, I thought id add an update.

First of all, I must admit that I haven’t played the game (barring the previous week or so) for the last 5+ months, possibly longer.

And I see now that the game does actually provide a lot of challenge and when I said in the first post that it seems like there is no challenge, that only really applies to some areas. (possibly level appropriate areas).

Also

I also wanted to mention that upon reflection of my own play-style, users can indeed play hard mode in this game as it is. All you have to do is go to a higher level map.
That’s what I’ve been doing with a few of my characters. For example right now I am sneaking my level 70 thief through ‘Cursed shore’ aiming for 100% map completion, with the previous two maps 100% completed, at level 70. (this would be near impossible using a character that isn’t a thief and solo)

However, the helper arrow (in the game) doesn’t help you when you are on a map that is too high for you. It seems kind of contradictory to complain about that, but I thought id mention it anyway.

Another idea

I don’t like it how sometimes in dungeons, groups will lure a boss into a corner and the whole fight plays out there, literally in the corner. They do this to make the fight easier.
I know that sometimes it is a good and normal tactic to hide from the boss in order to avoid damage, but this tactic which groups are using is cheap and it diminishes the game-play imo.

This is just a thought.
Maybe there could be some kind of “proper completion zone” (only in some places)
where players wishing to get a proper completion bonus would have to stay inside a highlighted zone while fighting a boss?
Although I can understand how this might not be a good idea, but I am just putting some thoughts out there, because I don’t like it how people “RUSH” through dungeons in a cheap play-style manner. It bothers me.

Just upscale all the zones to level 80+ by placing “hard mode” in slices of the megaserver. Players can join the hard mode server while in the zone of their choice. Scale the rewards appropriately and problem solved…

This would give the veterans a reason to return to these neglected zones. As it stands now, I only engage in PvE in sub-80 zones for dailies, world bosses, dungeons and literally nothing more. Such a shame that the beauty of these zones cannot be fully appreciated and enjoyed by the vets.

Second what Carabidus said — use the ‘hard mode’ model from GW1. Same content, everything hits harder and lasts longer, better loot if you bring your A-game. Oodles of replay’ability AND more BL key sales, as folks try to stock up on their combat boosters.
Easy.

For simplicity’s sake, separate the HM players from the NM players by giving HM its own instance of the zone.

carabidus.6214:

Just upscale all the zones to level 80+ by placing “hard mode” in slices of the megaserver. Players can join the hard mode server while in the zone of their choice. Scale the rewards appropriately and problem solved…

This would give the veterans a reason to return to these neglected zones. As it stands now, I only engage in PvE in sub-80 zones for dailies, world bosses, dungeons and literally nothing more. Such a shame that the beauty of these zones cannot be fully appreciated and enjoyed by the vets.

How are mobs that are higher level the same as “hard mode”. Harder mobs don’t just need higher hit points and more damage, that’s how they “tried” to increase difficulty in Fractals and it failed. Is Fractals 50 the most challenging level? No, because the extra hit points and damage don’t make content more challenging, just more boring and tedious.

Instabilities on the other hand really make you think of your build and tactics. Instabilities offer a real “challenge” to players because some of them are created in a way to change the usual tactics. It’s no secret that players are doing level 38 in the 30+ bracket, because it has by far the easiest instability. While levels like 35, 39 and 41 are way harder because their instabilities make it so.

By adding instabilities on all maps, that affect only those who want to be affected, the rest of the game can be the same and there is no need to split. For example, 10 players do an event, 5 of them use the “Lethargic” instability that makes Endurance regenerate much slower, while the other 5 are playing in “normal” mode without the instability. The game will be harder for those that have it on, and easier for those without it, without changing the mobs.

As for the rewards part, they are adding material rewards from events on all zones, that will change depending on zone. So for example Brisban Wildlands might reward Linen today, while Mount Maelstrom might reward charged cores today. It’s an excellent way to make all maps relevant and replayable, I believe when this change goes live, certain maps will be full of people (those that reward cloth materials for example)

Litani.1432:

Second what Carabidus said — use the ‘hard mode’ model from GW1. Same content, everything hits harder and lasts longer, better loot if you bring your A-game. Oodles of replay’ability AND more BL key sales, as folks try to stock up on their combat boosters.
Easy.

For simplicity’s sake, separate the HM players from the NM players by giving HM its own instance of the zone.

If “hits hard and lasts longer” is how you remember HM in GW1 then we were playing a different game.

Aside from some extra hit points (not too much higher than normal mode) Hard Mode mobs in GW1:

- have much higher attributes, or even extra attributes, which makes their skills more effective (all of them)
- have 33-50% higher attack speed and move speed
- have reduced activation times for skills with higher than 2 sec casting time
- have an elite skill, some of them get other non-elite extra skills too
- have a much better AI:

Respond more quickly to area damage over time.
Are more likely to fight for longer periods of time.
Are less likely to ball around a single target if more targets are available.
Are more likely to kite for long periods of time.
Will not activate skills that increase attack speed with no other benefit.

There are way more ways to increase the difficulty with a “Hard Mode” than adding some extra hit points and damage. Any of the above changes can be used in GW2 as well.

More skills available for mobs, few GW2 mobs have utility and elite skills or use weapon swapping, give them more utility skills, give them elites and a second weapon set. Mobs can also use a better AI, higher attack and movement speeds etc

carabidus.6214:

Just upscale all the zones to level 80+ by placing “hard mode” in slices of the megaserver. Players can join the hard mode server while in the zone of their choice. Scale the rewards appropriately and problem solved…

This would give the veterans a reason to return to these neglected zones. As it stands now, I only engage in PvE in sub-80 zones for dailies, world bosses, dungeons and literally nothing more. Such a shame that the beauty of these zones cannot be fully appreciated and enjoyed by the vets.

So .. use a zerg of 40 instead of 20 to kill them as fast as in normal, but get better loot .. yay ^^

There is a hard mode already, plain and simple, go play naked.

Manu.6078:

There is a hard mode already, plain and simple, go play naked.

But that doesn’t give you that phat lootz .. and thats in the end always the main
reason about all these threads.

I’m such a great gamer .. and so i deserve to get 10 times more loot at least than
all these casual noobs ^^

Beldin.5498:

Manu.6078:

There is a hard mode already, plain and simple, go play naked.

But that doesn’t give you that phat lootz .. and thats in the end always the main
reason about all these threads.

I’m such a great gamer .. and so i deserve to get 10 times more loot at least than
all these casual noobs ^^

as it should be, as it should be…

Notorious Dog.1043:

Good input everyone

@ Bunji .. Thanks, but I must say one thing. First of all, As most (or rather, some) people I’m pretty intelligent, especially if I put a lot of focus on something. (This is not an insult or anything)
I say this because I want you to know that these things you’re telling me are generally things which I have pretty much already glanced over in way of thought. The problem is that I don’t consider it a day job to come up with ideas for a game that aren’t necessarily going to be used. Do you know what I’m saying? I’m not a developer.

Wow, and here I was thinking, man, this thread does not display a histrionic personality disorder at work like that first thread. Should have known better.

Algreg.3629:

Wow, and here I was thinking, man, this thread does not display a histrionic personality disorder at work like that first thread. Should have known better.

That seems to be a requisite for internet interaction, these days…

“Hits harder, lasts longer” was an over-simplification to make a point. It isn’t necessary to trot out all the nuts and bolts if a few words can suffice. Here, this is clearer:

ANET, please give us hard mode like GW1! We want to revisit all the beautiful beginning areas and have new challenges/achievements to complete! And yes, we like loot. (Why is that a bad thing, again?)

Did somebody take offence to me saying that I’m intelligent?