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Posted by: LostInSmoke.2590

LostInSmoke.2590

Making changes like this because of “technical limitations” is a cop-out. Its bad enough we have such small limitations on the number of people in map. Upgrade your servers or something.

I mean, the thing about Fire Eles, is they don’t last long at all. There is hardly any point to them with a 30m cooldown. And why jump from ZERO cooldown to 30 MINUTES? Thats ridiculous. If the servers was really what you’re worried about, a 1 minute cooldown would already cut the fire ele use down by thousands per an event like teq. Its not like using them before was crashing the servers, so any cooldown should have been enough to have an effect.

(edited by LostInSmoke.2590)

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Posted by: Jester.6293

Jester.6293

The duration of the Fire ele is 5 min but they rarely last that long in most cases.

I would trade the 30 min cooldown for 1 min duration and being able to use them every 5 minutes. It would be nice if they left everything the same on them except for those two attributes.

I never personally spammed mine but I guess I could see people doing this because of how fragile they are. What if you changed the actual skill effects and avatar to be something a bit less intense to help with issues? For me I could care less if a giant flapping fiery orange elemental was flying around me. Also get rid of the graphic that pools the lava field on the ground and have it be something extremely basic.

I need Mas DPS! When it boils down to it that’s all we mostly care about.

My question to the devs would be can we have some kind of trade off that we can get this missing DPS back without putting the hurt on the servers?

Maybe something like getting a buff to strength when you have the timer debuff?

Blackgate – Imperial Coalition [ICoa]

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Posted by: Bugabuga.9721

Bugabuga.9721

On cooldown length:

  • The 30 minute length is based on the effective duration of the items (5 minutes). Compared with the Glyph of Lesser Elementals (Elemenatlist utility skill, 1 minute duration), 5 minutes is quite long.
  • It’s possible that we could go to something more like 1 minute duration, 5 minute cooldown, but that’s getting back into re-balancing the item. With a re-balance we stand to raise equal or more controversy. Currently you can at least continue using the item to whatever end it was used before, albeit in a more limited fashion. Had we changed it completely, you may have been able to use the item more frequently but no longer in the same capacity as before.
    /snip/

Wait wait wait. For elementalist the duration is one minute. The recharge is 45 seconds after expiration. So it’s 60s + 45 seconds if the elemental survives (ha-ha). Multiplying by 5 we get 525 seconds. I’m sure most people would be just fine if cooldown was 9 or even 10 minutes. But 30? I don’t see how the length of elemental’s life (theoretical, I might add) could be translated into 30 minutes (or more, as you’ve written) long cooldown. Also, does it mean that if everyone bring their elementalist to Tequatle fight the whole server will melt down again? Because they can spam those things on less than a minute cooldown. That’s very confusing.

If you have to do this (despite performance improvements coming as per other dev posts) couldn’t you just change the item to be exactly as elementalist’s skill then, if that’s the template for performance estimation? Introduce a different version so it lasts a minute and goes onto 45 seconds (fine, 120 seconds) cooldown?

Giant cooldown impacts players’ quality of life a lot. Especially with new fights introduced in LS patch that give no loot but have tons and tons and tons of adds. Doesn’t having gazillion things spawn during Lyssa event affect performance? Why not tone that down as well?

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Posted by: Sariel V.7024

Sariel V.7024

Uh.
Honestly, we found a way around that last night on Teq, and I’m not going to say what it was for fear that THAT will be nerfed, too. We actually beat her in less time than we usually do using embers.

It’s a good thing the balance team can’t identify you or look up how you did it…. by, say, your game login, which is completely different from your forum login….

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Posted by: Im Mudbone.1437

Im Mudbone.1437

Uh.
Honestly, we found a way around that last night on Teq, and I’m not going to say what it was for fear that THAT will be nerfed, too. We actually beat her in less time than we usually do using embers.

It’s a good thing the balance team can’t identify you or look up how you did it…. by, say, your game login, which is completely different from your forum login….

Funny, my forum login is identicle to the game login.

Blackgate Megaserver – [LaZy] Imperium of LaZy Nation
Mud Bone – Sylvari Ranger

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Posted by: reapex.8546

reapex.8546

I could give a rip about what Anet “giveth” and what Anet “taketh away”, however what I do give a rip about is what I spend on it. I had just finished loading my toons with 30 gold worth of pets and potions {adds up when you have 8 toons} and now they have become worthless. GIVE ME A REFUND NOW! I am sick of spending my hard earned gold on gear, weapons, pets, and tonics that become worthless soon after I buy them.

….why 30 gold worth x.x isn’t that over 250??

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Posted by: ChaosKirin.1328

ChaosKirin.1328

It’s a good thing I’m not the one who performed the action enabling us to beat Tequatl.

I think we should argue about my earlier post summore rather than staying on topic, though.

(edited by ChaosKirin.1328)

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Posted by: Jester.6293

Jester.6293

I could give a rip about what Anet “giveth” and what Anet “taketh away”, however what I do give a rip about is what I spend on it. I had just finished loading my toons with 30 gold worth of pets and potions {adds up when you have 8 toons} and now they have become worthless. GIVE ME A REFUND NOW! I am sick of spending my hard earned gold on gear, weapons, pets, and tonics that become worthless soon after I buy them.

….why 30 gold worth x.x isn’t that over 250??

well:
250 eles + 250 ogre pet whistles + 250 experimental rifles + potions/tonics/food x 8 characters = a lot of gold
i have 9 characters, so i understand completely {: (

Blackgate – Imperial Coalition [ICoa]

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Posted by: Lunacy Solacio.6514

Lunacy Solacio.6514

It’s a good thing the balance team can’t identify you or look up how you did it…. by, say, your game login, which is completely different from your forum login….

Funny, my forum login is identicle to the game login.

That…. was the point. It was sarcasm, which granted, doesn’t translate well in text. (Which, I could be missing your sarcasm?)

I too agree, 30 minutes is far too long, and it acts just like any buff, even if you log off for 5 minutes or 5 days, it waits to punish you when you come back. I mean, I understand not allowing a quick log off and back to get around timers, but, even using as ‘intended,’ they die fast, and if you wait to use it at the hardest part of, say a story instance, that instance is likely to end seconds after, and you are punished to continue on.

I remember when I did an early story mission on my Sylvari Thief, just over a year ago. Mortar seeds were just enough to allow me to solo it, without having to wait for someone to help me, which I tend to not ask for anyways.

(edited by Lunacy Solacio.6514)

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Posted by: MithranArkanere.8957

MithranArkanere.8957

Ideally, instead a cooldown you would not be able to summon another one while you have one, or summoning another one would kill the previous one (like GW2’s illusions or GW1’s minions).

Still, a 30-min cooldown is sbetter than having people spamming them like crazy. Even without the lag issues, getting a bunch of NPCs to do your job does not deserve the rewards people were getting by using these tactics.

[…]
Honestly, we found a way around that last night on Teq, and I’m not going to say what it was for fear that THAT will be nerfed, too. We actually beat her in less time than we usually do using embers.[…]

That’s another reason to change the cooldown to a “enforce one at a time” mechanic. No matter what a player does, they should be able to have only one consumable creature summoned at a time, which should despawn when the character logs out or summons another one, even if it’s a different creature from another consumable.

SUGGEST-A-TRON says:
PAY—ONCE—UNLOCKS—ARE—ALWAYS—BETTER.
No exceptions!

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Posted by: Allisa Wonderland.8192

Allisa Wonderland.8192

As someone who does the Tequatl event on a daily basis: ember consumables shorten the time it too to kill her, but are not an essential component in the capacity they are currently used. Perhaps they play a greater role in a smaller group, but I haven’t experienced less than a full (or nearly so) map for the event.

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Posted by: Xtreme Light.2098

Xtreme Light.2098

The only reason I see you did this nerf is to force the players to go into ascendend crap! There was no real “problem” with the consumables except the fact that they make it easier to get an monster down.
And here we come to the path of ruin GW2 is following – why does Anet think that there is fun in playing longer a game to get some stuff? It’s pure materialism, boring and stupid.

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Posted by: Allisa Wonderland.8192

Allisa Wonderland.8192

The only reason I see you did this nerf is to force the players to go into ascendend crap! There was no real “problem” with the consumables except the fact that they make it easier to get an monster down.
And here we come to the path of ruin GW2 is following – why does Anet think that there is fun in playing longer a game to get some stuff? It’s pure materialism, boring and stupid.

You can’t see because you didn’t read, did you?

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Posted by: Rafahil.2857

Rafahil.2857

Then at the very least change it to a reusable item then.

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Posted by: morrolan.9608

morrolan.9608

As someone who does the Tequatl event on a daily basis: ember consumables shorten the time it too to kill her, but are not an essential component in the capacity they are currently used. Perhaps they play a greater role in a smaller group, but I haven’t experienced less than a full (or nearly so) map for the event.

I have and I think you’re right. The essential components are numbers and organisation.

Jade Quarry [SoX]
Miranda Zero – Ele / Twitch Zero – Mes / Chargrin Soulboom – Engi
Aliera Zero – Guardian / Reaver Zero – Necro

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Posted by: Eternal.9148

Eternal.9148

harpy feathers nerfed…. rip chances to do dredge with only 1 thief ç_ç

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Posted by: Dystopiq.5218

Dystopiq.5218

It’s possible that we could go to something more like 1 minute duration, 5 minute cooldown, but that’s getting back into re-balancing the item. With a re-balance we stand to raise equal or more controversy.

No. Nothing is going to cause more controversy than what has been done already. I don’t know if you have personally ever used them but they don’t last very long in battle.
30 minutes is absurd.

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Posted by: Tken.1986

Tken.1986

If there’s something that caused so many problems, it should be deleted.
Now, this consumable will stay in game where probably only 1% of the players are going to use it. It feels like I work for 30min, but get pay with a 5min wage.
Yes, you are certain that the summoned creature can stay for 5min.
But I’m also very sure that it couldn’t survive for more than 1min.

Is this why necro minions are so weak and have a very long cool down?
Sounds like the game servers are in a very bad condition, so this kind of measure has to be taken.

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Posted by: Zaxares.5419

Zaxares.5419

Thank you for your informative and professional response, Anthony. And tell Bill not to get too disheartened by the angry responses to his post either. I understood perfectly what he was getting at; he just could have worded it better.

So basically, we have a situation where you don’t want to remove the Pet Whistles/Fire Elementals completely because a) they’re fun, and b) some players DO need just that little bit of extra help to beat some content (e.g. an experienced player with all Exotics is usually capable of soloing a Champion all by himself, but a newbie player cannot unless he majorly stacks the odds in his favour with consumables).

At the same time, aside from the technical strain being placed on the servers, I think we as players also acknowledge that abuse of the summoned monster items also trivialises certain game content, which is not something intended as part of the game’s design.

Therefore, Anthony, I strongly urge you and the ANet team to consider looking at tweaking the balance of some of the game’s most difficult encounters (namely, Tequatl and now the Great Jungle Wurm). Players have basically adopted this strategy because the risks of failure are unacceptably high to us otherwise; we often spend up to 2 hours camping out in the map beforehand, meticulously planning out strategies and using voicechat software. To have it all end in failure with little or nothing to show for our efforts is basically driving us to adopt any edge we can get.

You said yourself that you don’t want to create a game culture where players are expected to use consumables to succeed. I urge you therefore to consider easing the difficulty of the encounters where players are often compelled to use them. Some suggestions I recommend:

1. Ease or even eliminate the time restriction for Tequatl and the GJW. 15 mins is very, very tight for these bosses with HP probably in the millions (billions?). Extending it to 20 or even 30 minutes would give players more margin for error.

2. Adjust the scaling of the bosses so they can be completed by much smaller groups. Currently Tequatl is in a situation where, if you zone in and don’t see a massive zerg waiting for him, you leave immediately because you know you don’t stand a chance of beating him. This has resulted in situations where Tequatl is only tackled after reset (on very populated servers), and only specialised guilds like TTS manage to take him down outside these rare windows. This is rather unfair to people on smaller servers, or whose play hours are outside of these windows. I predict the same thing will happen to the GJW too.

In contrast, look at the other World Bosses like the Shatterer or the Maw Shaman. These bosses remain quite popular because players know that, even if they show up late, they still have a decent chance to contribute and earn full credit. And if they’re stuck in an overflow, they can still have a decent chance to kill them, or just try again later because you know there’s enough interest that people are always tackling them all day long.

Obviously, we don’t want to have Tequatl or the Wurm able to be soloed, or even 5-manned, but it should be possible for a group of, say, 10 – 20 people, to beat their events if they are experienced and know what they are doing. Any extra players beyond that is just icing on the cake. You have a great thing going with your Dynamic Scaling system; it’s possibly one of the greatest selling points of Guild Wars 2. Bring it back to the fore with the ultra-hard bosses! Make Tequatl and the GJW fun for smaller groups AND zergs. I know you guys have the talent and ability to pull it off.

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Posted by: Lishtenbird.2814

Lishtenbird.2814

Maybe just invest in better/more servers then. You made a fortune with the gemshop already looking at the ncsoft finance reports.

And now tell me which scenario you’d prefer once the servers are upgraded:

  • A population cap increase from 100 people to 120 for every map. More people finally get a chance to fight Tequatl and map-specific release content on their own servers without turning up in random overflows.
  • The same 100 people population cap, but once a week some random guild you know nothing of on a random map can pop up 100 elementals. Same overflows and a complete waste of resources for 99% of time.
20 level 80s and counting.

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Posted by: Kain Francois.4328

Kain Francois.4328

Hello ArenaNet. Thank you for the clarification on Summon-consumable nerfs.

But why was Charrzooka also affected? I would like to speak for the community who enjoy and use such weapons, as toys, so to speak. (They make it possible to play “as” a Skritt or Baby Quaggan using a Frost Gun, for example…)

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Posted by: Godzilla.7629

Godzilla.7629

Thanks for the responses Anthony

Few other thing i would like you to answer:

-Where does the charzooka come into play in all of this? Why was the change made for this particular item but none other consumable weps

-Will this be a permanent change for the cooldown or will it be temporary until further solutions come into play

-Why wasnt the healing tree nerfed? I understand none of us want this but i am curious as it is a consumable which summons quite a large tree with much more graphics than a turret or mortar (please dont nerf it, just merely curious)

Thanks in advance if you happen to answer these

(edited by Godzilla.7629)

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Posted by: Lishtenbird.2814

Lishtenbird.2814

Why wasnt the healing tree nerfed? I understand none of us want this but i am curious as it is a consumable which summons quite a large tree with much more graphics than a turret or mortar (please dont nerf it, just merely curious)

Unlike sylvari or mortars the healing tree has no AI:) Thus server performance-wise it is pretty much a coordinate with an AoE tied to it. No targeting, no skill usage, no projectiles with trajectories. As for the charrzooka, that was most probably an oversight.

20 level 80s and counting.

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Posted by: Mistx.7204

Mistx.7204

Even the kittenty taiwan/china/korea made game have their pet AI without problem. I never even heard a game will have server issue with “too much pet”.

If u want to nerf it, just say so.

If u have an server issue, u should code it right to solve it, not punishing players.

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Posted by: Knighthonor.4061

Knighthonor.4061

you all on the first 2 pages are forgetting what the term “Bug” means.

its a design in the software that wasnt intended. thats what a Bug is. they never intended people to use these items for series forms of PvE, but mainly for small PvE stuff and added role play.

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Posted by: Mimizu.7340

Mimizu.7340

-snip-

Anthony,

will you be offering refunds to those of us who have enjoyed using these consumables to enhance roleplaying/soloing? This “fix” hits us the hardest and is most unwelcome. These items made the game tolerable.

Anthony,

you said you would answer our questions about this change,
you have ignored my question so far,
please answer.

I have never done and will never do this “Teq”, Dungeons, PvP, WvW, Fractals or any of these new bosses or any of the content you seem to have nerfed this because of.
You seem to be under the false impression that every single player is using these items to abuse content.
If you will not allow me to use these items in the same state i purchased them in,
please refund all gold spent on them so i can purchase something useful.
Your team has knowingly allowed “bugged” content to be sold ingame for a year and a half now, then altered without notice, the onus is on you.

Mimizu Heavy Industries [Doll] – Underworld

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Posted by: Buttercup.5871

Buttercup.5871

I have never seen such candor and patience with devs in any MMO explaining what is essentially a change to a minor component in the game that only affects 5% of the player base, at most. Personally, I think they made the right decision and explained it well and were very honest what the reason was. Please let it go or, alternatively, be reasonable in your arguments taking the bigger picture into account.

(edited by Buttercup.5871)

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Posted by: rQurry.3249

rQurry.3249

I have never seen such candor and patience with devs in any MMO explaining what is essentially a change to a minor component in the game that only affects 5% of the player base, at most. Personally, I think they made the right decision and explained it well and were very honest what the reason was. Please let it go or, alternatively, be reasonable in your arguments taking the bigger picture into account.

Their reasoning is irrelevant to the fact that myself and many others are owed a refund.

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Posted by: Warcry.1596

Warcry.1596

So why let it ruin your day? They are still strong, just used more slowly

“He shall make whole that which was torn asunder.
Restore that which was lost. And all shall be as one.”

(edited by Moderator)

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Posted by: rQurry.3249

rQurry.3249

A developer once said:
“If we gave people a magic hat that allowed them to play the perfect MMO, they would complain about the color of the hat.”

There is no comparison what so ever, they had useful items that some people stocked up on, and then they made them thousands of times less useful without offering a refund.

You cannot rule out perfectly reasonable complaints, by pointing out trivial ones.

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Posted by: rQurry.3249

rQurry.3249

So why let it ruin your day? They are still strong, just used more slowly

Because they are no longer worth what I paid for them.

(edited by Moderator)

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Posted by: ChaosKirin.1328

ChaosKirin.1328

you all on the first 2 pages are forgetting what the term “Bug” means.

its a design in the software that wasnt intended. thats what a Bug is. they never intended people to use these items for series forms of PvE, but mainly for small PvE stuff and added role play.

A “Bug” is actually an unexpected and unknown problem in the system that was uncoded. The term “Bug” comes from a literal bug – a moth – trapped in a Harvard project back in the 1940s, which caused a glitch in the system.

A “bug” can never be an intentionally-coded object. Now, a bug can arise from MISUSE of intentionally coded objects, but cannot ever be, as the dev implied, the intentionally coded object itself.

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Posted by: Frans.7930

Frans.7930

you all on the first 2 pages are forgetting what the term “Bug” means.

its a design in the software that wasnt intended. thats what a Bug is. they never intended people to use these items for series forms of PvE, but mainly for small PvE stuff and added role play.

A “Bug” is actually an unexpected and unknown problem in the system that was uncoded. The term “Bug” comes from a literal bug – a moth – trapped in a Harvard project back in the 1940s, which caused a glitch in the system.

A “bug” can never be an intentionally-coded object. Now, a bug can arise from MISUSE of intentionally coded objects, but cannot ever be, as the dev implied, the intentionally coded object itself.

It’s a feature that ended up being used in a unintended way, causing more stress on servers than expected. We could call it a misfeature or we will just have to think of a new word for that. Regardless, it was a issue the developers feel needed to be addressed.

I think the developer explained clearly what the problem was and there is no reason to doubt that. Instancing a 100 extra creatures with full mob AI are going to cause extra stress.

I know it sucks, because it means we all will have to develop new strategies for dealing with the big Raids. But then again, that is part of the fun of Raids.

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Posted by: Malediktus.9250

Malediktus.9250

Maybe just invest in better/more servers then. You made a fortune with the gemshop already looking at the ncsoft finance reports.

And now tell me which scenario you’d prefer once the servers are upgraded:

  • A population cap increase from 100 people to 120 for every map. More people finally get a chance to fight Tequatl and map-specific release content on their own servers without turning up in random overflows.
  • The same 100 people population cap, but once a week some random guild you know nothing of on a random map can pop up 100 elementals. Same overflows and a complete waste of resources for 99% of time.

Our server kills tequatl on average 6 times per day without the help of guilds. All organized by pugs.
I dont recall ever seeing a single large guild show up.

1st person worldwide to reach 35,000 achievement points.

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Posted by: khani.4786

khani.4786

I still love my Orgre pet whistles. I have runes of the orgre on my ranger so I can have three pets running around with me when I need them as I roam by myself. I don’t use them in large zerg fights because they just die too quickly, but in open world stuff they’re amazing.

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Posted by: Father Grimm.8467

Father Grimm.8467

Regarding the resource issue – why not change the functionality of the consumables so that they replicate other items that don’t create these system problems?

I’m thinking of pets that spawn from server-side generated procs, e.g., #6 from Superior Rune of the Pirate or the Jagged Horrors from the Necromancer trait “Reanimator.”

The consumables could grant a buff giving a similar effect to the runes, etc., such as “5% chance to spawn Pet X when struck in combat.” The buff could be short or long, depending on how often you want someone to slap it on in combat situations. And, you could limit it to one such buff active at a time, though runes, traits, etc. would still function.

Honestly, there are probably other workarounds like the one above that would 1) serve the purpose of the casual user of these items, and 2) be far less painful than a 30 minute cooldown. As the runes, traits, etc haven’t been described as game-busting, there’s no good reason why a change in mechanics to a proc wouldn’t work. Unless, of course, the resource/server justification that has been put forth is not the only reason …

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Posted by: Flintgold.5761

Flintgold.5761

First, sorry to necro a old post but I’m just returning to the game after a month of not playing.

I have stacks of these elemental powders, not because I used them all the time but because when I did use them, they would die in a matter of seconds and I would go through a ton of them.

Would like to add my suggestion to make them viable again as I am sure the use & purchase of them is practically non existent now. Buff them up a bit so they survive a little while in the situations that you need them. Not asking to make them invincible but it would be nice if they could take more than one hit.

There are other suggestions I would make but I see that others have already made them.

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Posted by: Figment.9356

Figment.9356

They are a still necessity on teq and the 2nd phase of the ancient jungle wurm, you just have to be more strategic with them because of the 30 min cooldown. They are actually quite powerful.