Could we get a new trait and skill overhaul?

Could we get a new trait and skill overhaul?

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Posted by: InsaneQR.7412

InsaneQR.7412

A lot of players, with or without expansion, will have noticed that core specs are lacking behind E-Specs in a lot of ways.
I know Elite Specs should be in some way “Elite” but there are base profession traits and skills which are totally outdated in the current state they are.
Just improving QoL of skills and Traits to improve Build diversity of all kinds of professions would be fantastic.
I can live with the fact that E-Spec will still be meta but the core classes have to be a better foundation for the current and future E-Specs in this game.

I would gladly here some opinions.

Pale Raiders united.
9 Sylvari, 9 unique Builds.

(edited by InsaneQR.7412)

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Posted by: Warcry.1596

Warcry.1596

Elite in this case isn’t supposed to mean better or superior. Elite just means the specialization does more than a base one does. Elite ones change the profession mechanic, bring new skills, new weapon type.

“He shall make whole that which was torn asunder.
Restore that which was lost. And all shall be as one.”

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Posted by: OriOri.8724

OriOri.8724

We don’t even need an overhaul so much as just a proper balance patch. Give the balance team enough time, and enough devs, to balance all skills, all traitlines, in all classes, along with runes and sigils.

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Posted by: Xenesis.6389

Xenesis.6389

Just buy the expansion, problems solved.
Don’t worry I got yo back Anet.
/winkshinysmilethumbsup

Another derailing post. ^^
North Keep: One of the village residents will now flee if their home is destroyed.
“Game over man, Game Over!” – RIP Bill

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Posted by: RedDeadFred.1256

RedDeadFred.1256

We don’t even need an overhaul so much as just a proper balance patch. Give the balance team enough time, and enough devs, to balance all skills, all traitlines, in all classes, along with runes and sigils.

This. So many traits probably just require some numbers tweaks or maybe added functionality. We don’t need a rework. We just need a very large balance patch.

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Posted by: Paulytnz.7619

Paulytnz.7619

Elite in this case isn’t supposed to mean better or superior. Elite just means the specialization does more than a base one does. Elite ones change the profession mechanic, bring new skills, new weapon type.

Which is exactly the problem to a lot of people, they consider that the Elites specs currently ARE superior. Which I am gathering is the reason this post was made, so all your reply does really is support this thread, in a kind of round about way lol.

Since when did this business of being a hero become being a business?

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Posted by: Jski.6180

Jski.6180

Elite in this case isn’t supposed to mean better or superior. Elite just means the specialization does more than a base one does. Elite ones change the profession mechanic, bring new skills, new weapon type.

Which is exactly the problem to a lot of people, they consider that the Elites specs currently ARE superior. Which I am gathering is the reason this post was made, so all your reply does really is support this thread, in a kind of round about way lol.

For a lot of classes they are because they did not take any thing away from the core class they only added more effects. They need to re-look at the core classes by making the core class line its own elite spec or simply take away something for the current elites spec that only the core class can use.

Main : Jski Imaginary ELE (Necromancer)
Guild : OBEY (The Legacy) I call it Obay , TLC (WvW) , UNIV (other)
Server : FA

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Posted by: Paulytnz.7619

Paulytnz.7619

Actually tbh I think the best start forward for any balancing is to look at PvP in general, that is the main mode – conquest.

I think that is the BIGGEST problem right there. You have points (specific areas – small circles) that people have to fight over. This if you ask me brings in the cancer of the “meta’s”.

Just imagine if instead we had other options such as straight up death match or team death matches. You wouldn’t have to focus on small circles, you wouldn’t have the “fight on point!” issues. You would be ALLOWED to have the fight move away from any specific area and have those fights spill over to anywhere.

More build diversity could open up in my mind, just look at the issues which cause the current problems.

Not only that but I think the biggest problem PvP has for attracting PVERS to PvP is the PVE elements! Think about it, if I am a PVER and I want a break from PvE and just want to fight people in PvP I don’t want to stand in circles, that’s what I do in PVE!

Just give me what I want – straight up fighting people and countering what they throw at me….

I dunno maybe I should take this into another thread, sorry if I went off topic.

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Posted by: SlippyCheeze.5483

SlippyCheeze.5483

We don’t even need an overhaul so much as just a proper balance patch. Give the balance team enough time, and enough devs, to balance all skills, all traitlines, in all classes, along with runes and sigils.

This. So many traits probably just require some numbers tweaks or maybe added functionality. We don’t need a rework. We just need a very large balance patch.

To actually say that we do really need this, we need large scale performance numbers — something that only anet have at this point in time.

Given that arcdps is now permitted enough, and can record combat traces, though, it’s something that someone in the community could work on.

Build a system like the various raid logging tools over in WoW that gather those traces, and can provide aggregate statistics on real world performance of classes, as well as information on builds, and when we have multiple thousands of performance records … we have a convincing base on which to build our case that balance is wrong.

It’s entirely possible that traits that look “out of balance” to you and I are actually performing just fine in the real world, either in some area we don’t see, for playing using a different combination of gear, stats and rotation that has better synergy with it, or simply is actually fine in the real world and is just believed to be poor.

We can assert that balance sucks across the board all we want, but without some actual facts to back that up, all we end up with is a vaguely insulting “the balance team sucks”, and no actionable results.

If you have individual cases where something performs poorly, that’s maybe got a lower burden of proof, but … remember that at the end of the day mechanical performance has to be significant enough to matter.

A concrete example of that is the reaper greatsword auto-attack chain. Technically the third attack causes a very small drop in power output per second in damage. Practically, I’m pretty sure that difference is actually small enough that it is lost in the noise — mistime one single action in a fight, and you lost more DPS than you could possibly gain by cancelling the AA chain after two swings and avoiding the third.

Without concrete real world numbers, though, I can’t prove that. It’s a theory that I would have to get evidence to support, if I wanted to convince someone. I would especially not expect someone who did have numbers to be convinced by my assertion … and the only people who do, right now, have those numbers are the anet developers.

A second concrete series of examples can be found all over these forums, and reddit, from the time when DPS meters were first “permitted” by anet. Suddenly, posts about the fact that the average elementalist in a pug performing at 1/3 or less of the theoretical DPS golem rotation in the real world were everywhere, shocking everyone except people who know from places like WoW that, yes, theory is great and all, but the real world is never so simple.

That certainly supports the thesis that player perception of balance, compared to actual balance, is … not as accurate as you might hope.

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Posted by: Paulytnz.7619

Paulytnz.7619

Elite in this case isn’t supposed to mean better or superior. Elite just means the specialization does more than a base one does. Elite ones change the profession mechanic, bring new skills, new weapon type.

Which is exactly the problem to a lot of people, they consider that the Elites specs currently ARE superior. Which I am gathering is the reason this post was made, so all your reply does really is support this thread, in a kind of round about way lol.

For a lot of classes they are because they did not take any thing away from the core class they only added more effects. They need to re-look at the core classes by making the core class line its own elite spec or simply take away something for the current elites spec that only the core class can use.

The problem there is they can’t make the core lines their own Elites because then we would be stuck with just one trait line…..

Remember we can only ever have 1 Elite active in our builds at a time. Unless they removed that rule they really can’t make cores their own elites.

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Posted by: Jski.6180

Jski.6180

Elite in this case isn’t supposed to mean better or superior. Elite just means the specialization does more than a base one does. Elite ones change the profession mechanic, bring new skills, new weapon type.

Which is exactly the problem to a lot of people, they consider that the Elites specs currently ARE superior. Which I am gathering is the reason this post was made, so all your reply does really is support this thread, in a kind of round about way lol.

For a lot of classes they are because they did not take any thing away from the core class they only added more effects. They need to re-look at the core classes by making the core class line its own elite spec or simply take away something for the current elites spec that only the core class can use.

The problem there is they can’t make the core lines their own Elites because then we would be stuck with just one trait line…..

Remember we can only ever have 1 Elite active in our builds at a time. Unless they removed that rule they really can’t make cores their own elites.

I understand what your saying its just as things stand there a lot of classes with out a core. Ele mez thf eng ranger gurd (i guess you could kind of say its a core but the f1-3 are soo much weaker i am not sure if you could say that) war (to a point i realty do not know the class) rev (do not know the class) realty any class that do not have a major changes to there f1-f6 skills with out losing something. Necro elite spec reaper may be stronger but its a big changes on the f1 effect so there is a real necro core class and reaper is different from that necro core class.

These classes i named are worst off for not paying for HoT at all points of the game you simply cant play them with out the stronger version of there elite specs.

What anet realty should of done was have the elite spec lose a = type of wepon (1h main wepon add you lose a 1h wepon) and lost a utility line. But that now how it worked out so they need to add something to these core classes (realty all of them) to make them uniquest from there elite spec part.

Main : Jski Imaginary ELE (Necromancer)
Guild : OBEY (The Legacy) I call it Obay , TLC (WvW) , UNIV (other)
Server : FA

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Posted by: OriOri.8724

OriOri.8724

@SlippyCheeze – While you do have a point, I think you miss why we need such a comprehensive balance patch. And that’s because stuff just isn’t balanced within classes. Elite specs in general still bring too much of everything. Berserker still offers huge offensive pressure due to stupidly low cooldowns on primal burst skills on top of ridiculous range on some of them, on top of %dmg modifiers, all while still offering huge defensive support for the warrior due to primal burst skills acting as T3 adrenaline skills (so permanent t3 adrenal health without even trying, 3 condis cleansed every 3 seconds in berserk mode etc….). CS affecting mesmer elite skills makes balancing core mesmer elites impossible as they will either be balanced around being used in CS and be weak as kitten on their original cooldowns as soon as you stop running the chrono line, or they will be balanced to be worth their regular CDs and be ridiculously overpowered when used in conjunction with CS. Scrapper is still designed for PvP, which would be fine if engineers had another elite spec, but they don’t.

All classes have traits that are never used, as well as traitlines that are almost never not taken, which means that clearly something isn’t completely balanced here. No traitline should be so much better than the others that its almost guaranteed to be on your bar. Similarly, no traits should be so bad that no one runs them. Same thing for skills. A lot of skills are worthless, while others do way too much at a single time. The amount of spam in this game needs to be toned down, massively.

We need a proper balance patch. And the longer ANet puts it off, the more work it will take to implement.

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Posted by: Lethalvriend.1723

Lethalvriend.1723

They could instead make a vanilla elitespec, like Warrior traitline or something like that. This way everyone should always have an elite specialization, but vanilla players use the ‘base’ version. However, I think due to the way they have already set it up and their plans for especs I think they will remain expansion-only features. By the time (and if) there is a third expansion people should have enough options to feel like they truly are choices. That leaves one other option, which is already mentioned.. a balance patch. But I’m sure they are either already working on balance in some form, or perhaps they are preparing for expac2 balancing and are busy with that.

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Posted by: DeanBB.4268

DeanBB.4268

I’m not sure what you guys expect from a balance patch. Could ANet (or anyone) ever make every single trait line + weapon choice equivalent? I can’t see how players will not always gravitate to whatever becomes most efficient/powerful/meta. That perfect world will never exist.

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Posted by: OriOri.8724

OriOri.8724

No one is asking for it to be perfect, but the balance in this game is atrocious right now.

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Posted by: Aeolus.3615

Aeolus.3615

Elite in this case isn’t supposed to mean better or superior. Elite just means the specialization does more than a base one does. Elite ones change the profession mechanic, bring new skills, new weapon type.

Which is exactly the problem to a lot of people, they consider that the Elites specs currently ARE superior. Which I am gathering is the reason this post was made, so all your reply does really is support this thread, in a kind of round about way lol.

For a lot of classes they are because they did not take any thing away from the core class they only added more effects. They need to re-look at the core classes by making the core class line its own elite spec or simply take away something for the current elites spec that only the core class can use.

that would kill how the class is played in pve so they might actually buf for the player feel mor ethe elite feeling… dont forget how balance is done in this game.

1st April joke, when gw2 receives a “balance” update.

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Posted by: Paulytnz.7619

Paulytnz.7619

Elite in this case isn’t supposed to mean better or superior. Elite just means the specialization does more than a base one does. Elite ones change the profession mechanic, bring new skills, new weapon type.

Which is exactly the problem to a lot of people, they consider that the Elites specs currently ARE superior. Which I am gathering is the reason this post was made, so all your reply does really is support this thread, in a kind of round about way lol.

For a lot of classes they are because they did not take any thing away from the core class they only added more effects. They need to re-look at the core classes by making the core class line its own elite spec or simply take away something for the current elites spec that only the core class can use.

The problem there is they can’t make the core lines their own Elites because then we would be stuck with just one trait line…..

Remember we can only ever have 1 Elite active in our builds at a time. Unless they removed that rule they really can’t make cores their own elites.

I understand what your saying its just as things stand there a lot of classes with out a core. Ele mez thf eng ranger gurd (i guess you could kind of say its a core but the f1-3 are soo much weaker i am not sure if you could say that) war (to a point i realty do not know the class) rev (do not know the class) realty any class that do not have a major changes to there f1-f6 skills with out losing something. Necro elite spec reaper may be stronger but its a big changes on the f1 effect so there is a real necro core class and reaper is different from that necro core class.

These classes i named are worst off for not paying for HoT at all points of the game you simply cant play them with out the stronger version of there elite specs.

What anet realty should of done was have the elite spec lose a = type of wepon (1h main wepon add you lose a 1h wepon) and lost a utility line. But that now how it worked out so they need to add something to these core classes (realty all of them) to make them uniquest from there elite spec part.

I main Engi and I can tell you that I don’t use the Engi Elite. If I do I lose mobility or survivibility (jeez is this even a word? auto-correct seems to think not!) for just a tad bit more damage or stealth. Not worth it in most cases for me.

Warrior again I don’t use the Elite, I like to use rifle on my Warrior and I think if I used the Elite I sacrificed 100% crits with it or something. Didn’t really look into it that much but I just preferred the non Elite Fury for Rifle I guess.

I guess there are small reasons like these and different ones for different people which cause them not to use the Elites. Actually I do have all classes and let me think off the top of my head for the ones that I DO use the Elite for:

Ranger – I think, but only for the Movement buff so I can clear up 1 utility slot from the old Signet I used to use. Don’t use the staff.

Guardian – Mainly just for the long range option. However I have been thinking of switching it back out.

Thief – I think maybe for the extra Dodge, not sure off the top of my head maybe that’s for in PvP only.

Mes – Yes I def do here for the movement buff, this is pretty much needed!

Necro – Only for the Greatsword for a decent melee/cleave option but I guess I could do without I guess.

Rev – Perma Swiftness, HP regen and Fury or Might who wouldn’t!?

So I guess that’s 6 of the 9 classes I do use them. But these are mainly for PvE. I think a few of them I go without for in PvP and even for PVE I could certainly play without a couple of them.

But I do get what you are saying, they just need to expand on it a little more. Buff some Cores up a bit and maybe spread some of the Elites powers out between them. A good example could be Mes Speed buff. Give another option here to a core line and that could be a step in the right direction.

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Posted by: InsaneQR.7412

InsaneQR.7412

We don’t even need an overhaul so much as just a proper balance patch. Give the balance team enough time, and enough devs, to balance all skills, all traitlines, in all classes, along with runes and sigils.

Basically what i mean, nothing more. They should just should concentrate on base specs. Elite specs are well thought through but base specs are currently lackluster in several regards (Including weapons, professionskills and traits).

Pale Raiders united.
9 Sylvari, 9 unique Builds.

(edited by InsaneQR.7412)

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Posted by: InsaneQR.7412

InsaneQR.7412

I’m not sure what you guys expect from a balance patch. Could ANet (or anyone) ever make every single trait line + weapon choice equivalent? I can’t see how players will not always gravitate to whatever becomes most efficient/powerful/meta. That perfect world will never exist.

Ofcourse it will not, but there are skills and traits out there which doesn’t have any practical application because they either are counter intuitive, not build friendly (e.g. Ranger axe trait, gives ferocity but buffs condi mainhand) or just have to long ICD (e.g. Revenant poison trait in corruption line.)

Pale Raiders united.
9 Sylvari, 9 unique Builds.