CountDown To Zero: Removing Grind from GW2

CountDown To Zero: Removing Grind from GW2

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Posted by: MikeTangoAlpha.7269

MikeTangoAlpha.7269

In the past, I never lasted long playing MMO’s. The reason, of course, is the grind. The Guild Wars 2 people, on the other hand, have made it their mission to eliminate grind from their game. And, so far, it’s been the most enjoyable MMO I’ve ever played. However, it hasn’t eliminated grind because it still relies too much on one game mechanic: counting your activities.

The most obvious counter is the Daily. I opened up the Daily recently and the list had things like “Kill 5 veteran monsters”, “Dodge 10 attacks”, “Gather 30 items”, etc. Easy enough to do. Problem was I had no intention of crafting that particular day. I literally started dozing off trying to get enough green logs and onions and whatnot. I didn’t care what I was gathering. Yet I felt compelled to do it because there’s a counter on the right promising me some loot if I just keep going.

The Flame and Frost prelude content is better at hiding the counter, but it still has one. At first I thought I was helping a bunch of refugees. Then I found the counter in the Achievements panel that said I needed to complete 75 refugee-related things to finish the quest. Now I’m chasing a number again.

By counting activities, the game is making the player aware of repetition. By setting a specific number of times to do something and then putting a big carrot at the end of it, the game is encouraging you to grind. The consequence is that it breaks the illusion that you’re playing a role in an actual world.

So what’s the solution? The obvious and best answer is to design quests that complete based on context, not amount. You complete the quest by “killing ALL the bandits” as opposed to “killing 10 bandits”, for example. Contextualizing every event into the overall pastiche of the game world is the most difficult thing to do and, frankly, is something the Guild Wars 2 staff do amazingly well! But they still rely on a counter or a progress bar to define “progress.”

How can you define progression without making it seem pointless and repetitive? It’s tough! A game where you’re meant to play for hundreds of hours can’t practically avoid repetition. So how do you make it less boring?

So how about this? Instead of counting UP, why not count DOWN?

Think about it. What’s more exciting, counting DOWN the seconds to New Years Day or counting UP to 100 push ups? Instead of saying “Kill 10 underwater creatures”, say “3 more underwater creatures left”. The player doesn’t have to worry about if he did X amount of anything. He only has to worry about if he’s on the last one. By doing this simple flip, you place the emphasis on the GOAL, not the amount!

This is a fundamental change in how we look at MMO game progress. Though technically it’s still a counter, people respond to countdowns totally differently. In my opinion, this would alleviate a lot of the tedium associated with completing tasks.

It’s not a complete solution, mind you. The actual solution would be to eliminate counters altogether but that is a much harder proposition. At least with this idea, what you have left to do, not what you’ve done, is placed at the forefront. That’s huge!

Still, the overall goal is context. So long as there’s a purpose to your actions, you won’t mind the doing it, even repeatedly. Does anyone complain about pressing W over and over to go forward? But aything that breaks the illusion must be eliminated or at least hidden away. The trick I’m proposing here is just another way to keep our eyes on the prize and not on the grind. It still won’t fix the exhorbitant amount of time necessary to obtain Ascended gear but that’s another issue…hahahaha!

Whatcha think?

God bless!

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Posted by: Avatar.1923

Avatar.1923

it would have been much more simple to give dailies when you reach a certain amount of xp. ding, daily done.

if they give us these little “job” its probably to kitten us of, or were they trying to make us enjoy it?
the “healer” one for exemple… some maps have less, so i end up tp to that one spot i know is full of dead npc, same thing everytime.
lol.

its hard to believe how anet have no clue about endgame.
sure its a beautiful world and everything, but its time for “higher design” now.

so just give dailies once you get a certain amount of xp.
thats playing the game “as you want to play it”.

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Posted by: MikeTangoAlpha.7269

MikeTangoAlpha.7269

I like that! DING! Done! hahahaha

Yeah this game is sooo close to really changing the whole genre for the better but it doesn’t go quite far enough. We’ll see what they do in the future.

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Posted by: emikochan.8504

emikochan.8504

Glass half empty and glass half full are exactly the same thing. Take responsibility for your own entertainment.

Welcome to my world – http://emikochan13.wordpress.com

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Posted by: Bartas.4908

Bartas.4908

Oh c’mon. since next patch we can choose what part of daily we can do. TBH daily never took me more than 35 mins to finish and I was not even trying, well, maybe kill variety.

Proud member of [BOO]
Thief/Necro/Guardian/Mesmer/Elementalist of SFR EU

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Posted by: DevilMotors.4079

DevilMotors.4079

That’s actually a nice proposition I concur with.

But if you think a bit further, I don’t get why they did have to count Dailes at all.

Why not make it like their famous Heart “Quests”?

For example you can do a number of things like killing stuff, gathering, crafting, dodging, events, etc. to fill up your daily progress bar…

Well, one can hope that will change with the next Update, where we will be allowed to choose our own “Dailies”.

Cheers,

dM

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Posted by: PetricaKerempuh.7958

PetricaKerempuh.7958

on february patch you will be able to choose dailies you wanna do from a list!

improvement.

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Posted by: marnick.4305

marnick.4305

How about if the daily was just a heart:

“play the game by dodging, crafting and killing veterans” with a bar that filled itself.

The hearts are totally grind free because you don’t have to focus on a particular thing. Some hearts I kill and kill while others I do non-killing objectives. It all depends on what I feel like at the moment.

If I can’t play Guild Wars 2 at work, I won’t work in Guild Wars 2 either.
Delayed content is eventually good. Rushed content is eternally bad. ~ Shigeru Miyamoto

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Posted by: PetricaKerempuh.7958

PetricaKerempuh.7958

How about if the daily was just a heart:

“play the game by dodging, crafting and killing veterans” with a bar that filled itself.

The hearts are totally grind free because you don’t have to focus on a particular thing. Some hearts I kill and kill while others I do non-killing objectives. It all depends on what I feel like at the moment.

so hart fills up while you do whatever? thats not achievement…

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Posted by: Red Falcon.8257

Red Falcon.8257

I don’t think changing 0/10 to “10 left” would change in any way the fact they are fetch quests like wow that we were told would have never been included in GW2.

We play GW2 because it’s about quality content, if we wanted cheap, quickly-coded updates we would be playing cheap MMOs like wow.

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Posted by: Azjenco.9425

Azjenco.9425

Oh c’mon. since next patch we can choose what part of daily we can do. TBH daily never took me more than 35 mins to finish and I was not even trying, well, maybe kill variety.

Same here, I don’t know how people struggle so much with these dailies. That said, everyday I have a different spot for doing the dailies, but it’s so easy.

I’m glad the variety kills had been lowered by 2. I can’t say how many times I sat on 14/15 previously, while running around, wondering what type I haven’t killed yet. XD

Seriously though, I’m so excited to see what they come up with for the choose your daily system.

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Posted by: Winfernal.9208

Winfernal.9208

I don’t think changing 0/10 to “10 left” would change in any way the fact they are fetch quests like wow that we were told would have never been included in GW2.

We play GW2 because it’s about quality content, if we wanted cheap, quickly-coded updates we would be playing cheap MMOs like wow.

“like wow”

Please stop. Going around bashing other mmos wont strengthen your argument.

OT:

I like the hearts idea. They’re also adding choices in the feb. patch for dailys, that’s an improvement. In that way you can do what you like as a daily!

(Also, the underwater killing daily… it’ll be off my list when i can choose.)

“Kharomir” – Human Guardian
[DW] Dynasty Warriors, [TNA] The Northern Assembly
http://www.farshiverpeaks.com

(edited by Winfernal.9208)

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Posted by: Heijincks.9267

Heijincks.9267

I think the upcoming “choose your daily” settles this in a way. That being said however, it depends if there are any new dailies being introduced.

That way, the diverse number of possible achievements to “choose from” makes it more likely someone would just complete their daily from simply playing.

Also, maybe partial rewards might help as well so people don’t feel as obliged to complete their dailies. If they only completed half their daily for example, at reset they’d get half the maximum reward. The only problem is you can’t get half a laurel, but that can be remedied by a mechanism which for example, if you do two half completed dailies, you’d get one laurel for it.

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Posted by: Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

The problem of course with kill ALL the bandits is that its’ an MMO and bandits will have to keep spawning in order so other players can kill them too. This is why instanced content is better to tell a story than open world content.

That said, there’s merit to the argument of hiding the numbers better. The problem is a lot of people want to see those numbers. So what you need is a system where you can manually turn off the numbers for those who don’t like it and manually turn it on for those who do.

I’m like you, OP. I don’t want to see numbers. But it is my experience that I’m in a vast minority.

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Posted by: marnick.4305

marnick.4305

How about if the daily was just a heart:

“play the game by dodging, crafting and killing veterans” with a bar that filled itself.

The hearts are totally grind free because you don’t have to focus on a particular thing. Some hearts I kill and kill while others I do non-killing objectives. It all depends on what I feel like at the moment.

so hart fills up while you do whatever? thats not achievement…

`You clearly didn’t read my post. You’re not doing “whatever”. You’re doing things out of a list of options.

If I can’t play Guild Wars 2 at work, I won’t work in Guild Wars 2 either.
Delayed content is eventually good. Rushed content is eternally bad. ~ Shigeru Miyamoto

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Posted by: Winfernal.9208

Winfernal.9208

I’m like you, OP. I don’t want to see numbers. But it is my experience that I’m in a vast minority.

I like the heart system! Alot.

“Kharomir” – Human Guardian
[DW] Dynasty Warriors, [TNA] The Northern Assembly
http://www.farshiverpeaks.com

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Posted by: Seamhainn.1490

Seamhainn.1490

The introduction of the dailies and monthlies was a step backwards for Guild Wars 2. With these “additions” GW2 is the same like any other MMO on the market. One is forced to do specific tasks now to get things which are essential for every interested gamer. That wasn’t the case with GW2 before the introduction of the dailies and monthlies. A part which made GW2 unique is gone now — at least for me. I can’t play the game as I want to any more. A sad thing in my book.

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Posted by: Winfernal.9208

Winfernal.9208

The introduction of the dailies and monthlies was a step backwards for Guild Wars 2. With these “additions” GW2 is the same like any other MMO on the market. One is forced to do specific tasks now to get things which are essential for every interested gamer. That wasn’t the case with GW2 before the introduction of the dailies and monthlies. A part which made GW2 unique is gone now — at least for me. I can’t play the game as I want to any more. A sad thing in my book.

What about when they add choices of daily quests? so that you can play like you want.

“Kharomir” – Human Guardian
[DW] Dynasty Warriors, [TNA] The Northern Assembly
http://www.farshiverpeaks.com

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Posted by: DanH.5879

DanH.5879

the guys are right, we should be able to choose which parts of the daily to make, and which not to. For example i am not a crafting fan, but i like killing stuff…
every time i get the crafting one, i get angry
the revival one is even worse…

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Posted by: Seamhainn.1490

Seamhainn.1490

@Winfernal: If there will be ENOUGH choices to pick from, it might lessen the pressure. But I doubt that the variaty will be big enough. If I remember correctly the montly includes the salvage of 500 things. 500? Seriously? That is not my interpretation of fun or playing the game as I see fit.

One could say, you can do salvaging on the fly anyway. But no, I have to salvage stuff now which I would have sold before the introduction of the monthly, and I am forced to buy the kits also. The game dictates my actions. Thats not the path GW2 should have take.

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Posted by: FacesOfMu.3561

FacesOfMu.3561

I’m gonna try this at gym next time. Thanks MTA

People vary.

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Posted by: marnick.4305

marnick.4305

@Winfernal: If there will be ENOUGH choices to pick from, it might lessen the pressure. But I doubt that the variaty will be big enough. If I remember correctly the montly includes the salvage of 500 things. 500? Seriously? That is not my interpretation of fun or playing the game as I see fit.

One could say, you can do salvaging on the fly anyway. But no, I have to salvage stuff now which I would have sold before the introduction of the monthly, and I am forced to buy the kits also. The game dictates my actions. Thats not the path GW2 should have take.

I don’t see how you’re required to do the monthly. It gives a nice reward, but everything you get can be got through other means. If you sell the 500 salvageable items you might make enough gold for 10 mystic coins, while karma isn’t a big deal anyways. The ten laurels can be replaced by other means of getting ascended equipment, or by simply waiting two more weeks. Nice rewards, but it isn’t really a big deal if you miss out.

If I can’t play Guild Wars 2 at work, I won’t work in Guild Wars 2 either.
Delayed content is eventually good. Rushed content is eternally bad. ~ Shigeru Miyamoto

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Posted by: Seamhainn.1490

Seamhainn.1490

@marnick: My account was hacked, baned and accessible for me again only a few days ago. I wasn’t aware that one can get the ascended equip in any other way then with laurels. Thanks for the hint ^^ .

That doesn’t change my opinion regarding the dailies / monthlies though ;-) .

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Posted by: nethykins.7986

nethykins.7986

I literally started dozing off trying to get enough green logs and onions and whatnot

God…I thought I was the only one.
I like the psychology behind the idea— but i’m not sure it’ll work for a long period of time. All in all, it’s the standard “kill 10 rats” or “fetch 10 hides” quests from other MMO’s creeping in. Best way to solve the grind is to get rid of the number entirely and reward us on something skill-based but that doesn’t take up hours of your time.

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Posted by: Morrigan.2809

Morrigan.2809

OP: I like your post and it is an interesting way to look at it certainly
I agree with you in that I really don’t want to see numbers, it just makes me tired

I am not sure how a no number philosophy can be implemented with so many players who really like watching those numbers.

Marnick’s idea of a system similar to hearts that give you options but with a bar that fills up instead of numbers is really good I think.
Add to that the fact that from Feb we get to choose- those ideas together would make a good system, at least to me.

While I have no problem completing the dailies quickly, for the first time now, I do watch the numbers and it does get repetitive.
I have never felt like this before at all.

I hate repeating something just for the sake of getting it done x times and avoid it in my regular play at all costs.
By all means, hide the numbers

Gunnar’s Hold

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Posted by: Thereon.3495

Thereon.3495

I think I understand what the OP is saying- its the ‘kill ten rats’ aspect of MMOs that GW2 said it was doing away with and yet we have it in game. I personally have no direct issue with this aspect and the dailies are very much more enjoyable with the new system. However I do agree that the ‘kill ten rats’ aspect could be changed very easily.

I say do away with numbers and implement a system based on ‘work done’. For example say we’re talking about a heart that normally requires you to set 20 Ettin traps. What about replacing this number with a ‘work done’ bar similar to those you get when doing gathering DEs? Have the bar be exclusive you you (unlike DE bars) and include things such as killing Ettins trying to destroy the traps into the ‘work done’. Also dont set it as ‘do 20 things to fill the bar’, make the number random between 18 and 24 things so its more unpredictable and you dont know when youre going to be finished (but obviously dont give too much to do). Its a pretty ‘simple’ fix which would bring a hell of a lot more immersion to the game IMO.

Thereon Avenrise – former [Noes] Officer – Piken Square (EU)
Retired and living in a shack. Relaxing!

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Posted by: ShadeUK.7632

ShadeUK.7632

Didnt take in much of your post i was abit suprised when you said ‘removing grind’. Yea that was on release but all Anet do after release is add grind, like nerfing drop rates recently for example oh and considering nerfing AOE skills so i heard recently? After that further skill nerfs will be implemented and further farm nerfs they are good a ruining games and taking fun out of the game that way..

Your idea is interesting but i dont think anything will come of it.

Source: Guild Wars 1 7 and a half years.

(edited by ShadeUK.7632)

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Posted by: Asmodal.6489

Asmodal.6489

kill 10 rats!!!

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Posted by: MikeTangoAlpha.7269

MikeTangoAlpha.7269

The point I was trying to get at with the counting down thing is this: if you’re gonna introduce a historically grindy thing like a Daily into a game that supposedly has none, think outside the box a little and see if you can’t remove some of it’s grindiness. Shift the focus. Make it exciting! Do SOMETHING other than the same ol’ same ol’.

The counting down idea I thought might be good because it’d be dead simple to implement. Just switch the numbers around (and for the full effect, remove the “of 10” from “9 of 10” for example). For the people who like crunching the numbers, they’re still there. But for the people that don’t, it might make the whole exercise more palatable simply by changing the psychology behind them.

But don’t stop there! The other posters came up with other good ideas like making Dailies into Heart Quests. That’s a great idea! I’d love to see it happen. And they don’t have to be easy! Challenging is fun! My complaint is not that a Daily is hard or time consuming but that I find them boring and, worst of all, POINTLESS!

In the end, I’m glad that the Daily is an optional thing cause I personally won’t bother looking at it anymore. No laurels for me I guess hahaha. Still, in a game as good and fun as GW2, which has successfully removed grind from so much of the rest of the experience, it shouldn’t settle for second best.

God bless!

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Posted by: Zach.2618

Zach.2618

Nooooo! Stop asking for patches on stuff you want! and on stuff that doesn’t really matter lols! there are so many other problems that need to be fixed first! if you don’t wanna do dailies don’t do them lols, in actual fact it doesn’t really take long.. pls im begging you to stop asking for these insignificant patches:( i want the real main problems to be fixed:(

TY:D

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Posted by: nerva.7940

nerva.7940

800 hours in, still not grinding. not sure what youre going on about.

Ikiro – 80 Ranger
Umie – 80 Guardian
http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCgLbWtvtzdU0Ho0zto6VnTQ

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Posted by: FourthVariety.5463

FourthVariety.5463

Counting up implies forward progress and a goal to work towards.

Counting down is more of an indication for when you are finally done and can get back to doing something else.

MMOs hate nothing more than giving you the feeling of being done.

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Posted by: MikeTangoAlpha.7269

MikeTangoAlpha.7269

@FourthVariety – Very well put!

And what is it that people want to get “done” so they can move on to something else? Chores! And what in the game feels like a chore? Dailies, Monthlies and any activity that ruins your immersion. Or are we not supposed pay attention to that man behind the curtain?

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Posted by: Raine.1394

Raine.1394

The daily and monthly achievements, with laurels, are the grind for better stats outside of FotM. I’m not too concerned about perception issues. I know I’m grinding for gear with ever-increasing stats, nothing will really change that. I would love to see a countdown to zero grind, as in actually not having a gear grind, but I don’t think that is in the cards.

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Posted by: Jrunyon.3012

Jrunyon.3012

They should just give us the daily and monthly as soon as we log in. Then we’d all be happy right?

Nesmee – Thief
[OHai] – Northern Shiverpeaks

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Posted by: Morrigan.2809

Morrigan.2809

They should just give us the daily and monthly as soon as we log in. Then we’d all be happy right?

whoosh

Gunnar’s Hold

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Posted by: DreamOfACure.4382

DreamOfACure.4382

It couldn’t hurt to try.

And for a lot of dynamic events, I feel there shouldn’t be a counter at all.
If an NPC tells me they need to collect certain items or check certain spots for something, the event tab shouldn’t tell me how many we need.
I’ve already committed to helping, having a number there just drives players to be impatient, whereas the lack of a number leaves me to play in peace and stick with the NPC until the event is satisfied with whatever random number times the NPC must do his/her thing.

“Bleeding, Poison, Confusion, Torment, they all look delightful on you.”

Lv80s: Guard, Thief, Necro. Renewed my Altaholic’s card on the HoT Hype-Train. Choo choo~

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Posted by: Revolution.6301

Revolution.6301

In the past, I never lasted long playing MMO’s. The reason, of course, is the grind. The Guild Wars 2 people, on the other hand, have made it their mission to eliminate grind from their game. And, so far, it’s been the most enjoyable MMO I’ve ever played. However, it hasn’t eliminated grind because it still relies too much on one game mechanic: counting your activities.

The most obvious counter is the Daily. I opened up the Daily recently and the list had things like “Kill 5 veteran monsters”, “Dodge 10 attacks”, “Gather 30 items”, etc. Easy enough to do. Problem was I had no intention of crafting that particular day. I literally started dozing off trying to get enough green logs and onions and whatnot. I didn’t care what I was gathering. Yet I felt compelled to do it because there’s a counter on the right promising me some loot if I just keep going.

The Flame and Frost prelude content is better at hiding the counter, but it still has one. At first I thought I was helping a bunch of refugees. Then I found the counter in the Achievements panel that said I needed to complete 75 refugee-related things to finish the quest. Now I’m chasing a number again.

By counting activities, the game is making the player aware of repetition. By setting a specific number of times to do something and then putting a big carrot at the end of it, the game is encouraging you to grind. The consequence is that it breaks the illusion that you’re playing a role in an actual world.

So what’s the solution? The obvious and best answer is to design quests that complete based on context, not amount. You complete the quest by “killing ALL the bandits” as opposed to “killing 10 bandits”, for example. Contextualizing every event into the overall pastiche of the game world is the most difficult thing to do and, frankly, is something the Guild Wars 2 staff do amazingly well! But they still rely on a counter or a progress bar to define “progress.”

How can you define progression without making it seem pointless and repetitive? It’s tough! A game where you’re meant to play for hundreds of hours can’t practically avoid repetition. So how do you make it less boring?

So how about this? Instead of counting UP, why not count DOWN?

Think about it. What’s more exciting, counting DOWN the seconds to New Years Day or counting UP to 100 push ups? Instead of saying “Kill 10 underwater creatures”, say “3 more underwater creatures left”. The player doesn’t have to worry about if he did X amount of anything. He only has to worry about if he’s on the last one. By doing this simple flip, you place the emphasis on the GOAL, not the amount!

This is a fundamental change in how we look at MMO game progress. Though technically it’s still a counter, people respond to countdowns totally differently. In my opinion, this would alleviate a lot of the tedium associated with completing tasks.

It’s not a complete solution, mind you. The actual solution would be to eliminate counters altogether but that is a much harder proposition. At least with this idea, what you have left to do, not what you’ve done, is placed at the forefront. That’s huge!

Still, the overall goal is context. So long as there’s a purpose to your actions, you won’t mind the doing it, even repeatedly. Does anyone complain about pressing W over and over to go forward? But aything that breaks the illusion must be eliminated or at least hidden away. The trick I’m proposing here is just another way to keep our eyes on the prize and not on the grind. It still won’t fix the exhorbitant amount of time necessary to obtain Ascended gear but that’s another issue…hahahaha!

Whatcha think?

God bless!

Not bad but the grinds still there! For someone like me I look at dailies as somthing if I have time I’ll do regardless of how its formatted. I just don’t like being made to craft personally.