Guild Wars 2

Shemsu.8721:

Zanryu.3417:

It does my heart good to see a stealth class get a major nerf to that mechanic. For those of you complaining about a useless trait line… you do realize every class tends to have a PvE and a PvP build right? There are traits on classes that are useful for PvP or PvE, but usually not both as they don’t offer what you’d need in such a situation depending on your build or what your’e going for. Surely the other 4 trait lines of a Thief could be used for PvP and the stealth line could be used in a PvE build?

jajajaja?

You should learn more about classes before posting. at most a thief will run 10 SA in pve, only for reduced init on stealth to maintain long term backstab rotations. otherwise no thief with half a brain would run SA in PVE, its a complete DPS waste and all it serves is to draw more agro to your thief. So SA is already useless in PvE, so lets make it useless in pvp also? good idea right jajajaja?

Huehuehue that’s not completely useless ehuaehuaehua.

Being able to stealth for over half a fight is complete garbage of a mechanic and anyone with half a brain would realize that. Thieves already have excellent dodge and access to blinds, oh and let’s not forget the teleports. The amount of stealth they have to go with that is absolute overkill. Some kind of nerf to it is more than welcome in my opinion, please accept my sincerest apologies that you can no longer spend most of your time in stealth.

Pfftbahhaahahahaha sorry, I couldn’t say that with a straight face. Ah. A thread of kitten thieves sure does brighten one’s day.

Stealth is annoying.

Now that is a good laughter
A Thief to be afraid of the big bad wolf…I mean Ranger.
Permanent stealth, as most Thieves use, is just a way of saying: I have no clue what I am doing here. i just know how to stab you in the back while you have absolutely no idea where I am.
Here comes the fun part now. We will see you!

That is, if the darn pets will ever hit you. Which they will not. So relax.

True fact: Got killed by a thief in 3 hits. And I mean KILLED not downed. I barely had the time to hit him once
When a ranger will be able to do that, please, by all means, come back and cry on forums.

Zanryu.3417:

Shemsu.8721:

Zanryu.3417:

It does my heart good to see a stealth class get a major nerf to that mechanic. For those of you complaining about a useless trait line… you do realize every class tends to have a PvE and a PvP build right? There are traits on classes that are useful for PvP or PvE, but usually not both as they don’t offer what you’d need in such a situation depending on your build or what your’e going for. Surely the other 4 trait lines of a Thief could be used for PvP and the stealth line could be used in a PvE build?

jajajaja?

You should learn more about classes before posting. at most a thief will run 10 SA in pve, only for reduced init on stealth to maintain long term backstab rotations. otherwise no thief with half a brain would run SA in PVE, its a complete DPS waste and all it serves is to draw more agro to your thief. So SA is already useless in PvE, so lets make it useless in pvp also? good idea right jajajaja?

Huehuehue that’s not completely useless ehuaehuaehua.

Being able to stealth for over half a fight is complete garbage of a mechanic and anyone with half a brain would realize that. Thieves already have excellent dodge and access to blinds, oh and let’s not forget the teleports. The amount of stealth they have to go with that is absolute overkill. Some kind of nerf to it is more than welcome in my opinion, please accept my sincerest apologies that you can no longer spend most of your time in stealth.

Pfftbahhaahahahaha sorry, I couldn’t say that with a straight face. Ah. A thread of kitten thieves sure does brighten one’s day.

Ohh yeah I forgot about the infamous 30/30/30/30/30 thief build, with double trait selections, max dps with d/d, perma stealth with d/p, infinite teleports with sb, max evades and boonsteal with s/d (did i mention thief has at least 4 weapons swaps too). You certainly know how the game works

And for the record I dont run a stealth build on my thief, I find stealth more useful on my engi and mesmer

Wait til you see more anti-stealth mechanics. After one year that is. This is so much fun!

Shemsu.8721:

Zanryu.3417:

Shemsu.8721:

Zanryu.3417:

It does my heart good to see a stealth class get a major nerf to that mechanic. For those of you complaining about a useless trait line… you do realize every class tends to have a PvE and a PvP build right? There are traits on classes that are useful for PvP or PvE, but usually not both as they don’t offer what you’d need in such a situation depending on your build or what your’e going for. Surely the other 4 trait lines of a Thief could be used for PvP and the stealth line could be used in a PvE build?

jajajaja?

You should learn more about classes before posting. at most a thief will run 10 SA in pve, only for reduced init on stealth to maintain long term backstab rotations. otherwise no thief with half a brain would run SA in PVE, its a complete DPS waste and all it serves is to draw more agro to your thief. So SA is already useless in PvE, so lets make it useless in pvp also? good idea right jajajaja?

Huehuehue that’s not completely useless ehuaehuaehua.

Being able to stealth for over half a fight is complete garbage of a mechanic and anyone with half a brain would realize that. Thieves already have excellent dodge and access to blinds, oh and let’s not forget the teleports. The amount of stealth they have to go with that is absolute overkill. Some kind of nerf to it is more than welcome in my opinion, please accept my sincerest apologies that you can no longer spend most of your time in stealth.

Pfftbahhaahahahaha sorry, I couldn’t say that with a straight face. Ah. A thread of kitten thieves sure does brighten one’s day.

Ohh yeah I forgot about the infamous 30/30/30/30/30 thief build, with double trait selections, max dps with d/d, perma stealth with d/p, infinite teleports with sb, max evades and boonsteal with s/d (did i mention thief has at least 4 weapons swaps too). You certainly know how the game works

And for the record I dont run a stealth build on my thief, I find stealth more useful on my engi and mesmer

Someone seems upset.

Reading this thread, I am very glad I play Engy in addition to the Thief. Of these two classes, Thief is undoubtably the weaker. While it is possible to absolutely destroy bad players on one, I simply cannot kill good players. My Engy, on the other hand, fears nobody except certain stun builds.
Ah well.

TheJokester.4672:

ok he is crying stealth is revoked by revealed. ok use detected stealth still doesnt offer any help dps burst with stealth comes from backstab ie not being seen and able to get behind ur enemy even if u can use backstab ur still able to be seen ur not getting behind that guy

Play tf2 and you’ll see how easy it is to see an enemy, know where they are, and still let them slip by and backstab you

TheJokester.4672:

Zacchary.6183:

Dat lack of punctuation.

On topic: TL;DR Offer a counter without completely negating a traitline.

Okay Mr. do it right. Traitline is not negated just the trait that everyone of you noob thieves use to be overpowered is now harder to use meaning you have a form of cooldown now. Isn’t it nice to be balanced now? Also be it 6 seconds or 8 that is the average CD on many other classes skills also giving you a 40 second window before you have to worry about it again. Can’t kill them in 32 seconds as a thief play a different class and get good.

Sounds like somebody gets owned by thieves all the time.

This thread makes too much sense to come from a thief player. I sense a Guardian behind all this!

The reason a mechanic like Revealed is being implemented is, that it is about time. I don’t play my thief anymore, because I got bored super quick at how OP stealth/backstab is in WvW and PvP…it’s not even funny anymore. I just hope more is on the way, that’s all I have to say.

As a thief, I say bring on more revealed skills! They will wash away the scrubs who give this class a bad reputation.

Why is everyone complaining? Both people who still play Rangers can’t be everywhere at the same time…

seriously, tho, I have a thief, and I am not too worried about it. While I don’t like the idea of a “hard counter” to anyone’s abilities, I think that it won’t be used as often as people think it will.

Most thieves I have come across in WvW are already stealthed, and I rarely see them until I am downed and watching them “finish” me. I think one would have to see the thief before casting. Not to mention, their focus is going to be on the zerg coming at them instead of a lone thief behind them.

I am going to wait and see what it actually does to us before I complain and carry on like it is the only build I know how to use.

Stealth is a bad mechanic. The best way to make an interesting and viable thief is to focus on mobility and utility, and remove stealth from the game (for everyone and not just thief).

Yeah I know, it’s too late to do that now because it’s so built-in. But really, it would’ve been best to just not have stealth. It’s an outdated mechanic used as a poor substitute for mobility.

While I do agree that a hard counter should not exist in this game, truth being that stealth is already a hard counter to practically everything. In WvW 1v1 against a roaming thief, the best you can go for is a draw. Killing a good thief is impossible. That’s not acceptable.

To put in a hard counter against roaming thieves is a bad solution to an equally bad problem.

In my opinion, the superior solution would have been to make the thief shimmer, leave footsteps … Something to keep him visible, but only to people who pay proper attention to small details. Another option would be to make stealth break on particular effects such as blasts, fire, roots … something that allows a good player to place a skillshot aoe. Currently there’s absolutely nothing to outplay an invisible thief.

Is the sniffing a good solution? No … I agree. But stealth is a broken mechanic as it is currently. One hard counter on one specific pet for one profession is hardly a nerf.

Knote.2904:

Condition builds that use condition traits are effectively nullified by warriors condition immunity for 8 seconds.

People keep making this comparison – it’s silly and not very well thought out.
The process is “warrior used berserker stance, he is immune to conditions for x seconds.”, NOT “warrior used berserker stance, you have lost access to your condition abilities for x seconds” – its a very noticeable difference.

Corian.4068:

Stealth is a bad mechanic. The best way to make an interesting and viable thief is to focus on mobility and utility, and remove stealth from the game (for everyone and not just thief).

Yeah I know, it’s too late to do that now because it’s so built-in. But really, it would’ve been best to just not have stealth. It’s an outdated mechanic used as a poor substitute for mobility.

2500 range teleport and back again every 3 seconds can be a good trade for stealth…

Change approved !

they should just make this widespread
give a class one ability to stop:

- warriors from gaining adrenaline
- guardians from using virtues
- mesmers from creating illusions

and so on, so every class is a hard counter to another one, in a circle fashion…

Konrad Curze.5130:

they should just make this widespread
give a class one ability to stop:

- warriors from gaining adrenaline
- guardians from using virtues
- mesmers from creating illusions

and so on, so every class is a hard counter to another one, in a circle fashion…

guardians without virtues can still be immortal….

Daendur.2357:

Konrad Curze.5130:

they should just make this widespread
give a class one ability to stop:

- warriors from gaining adrenaline
- guardians from using virtues
- mesmers from creating illusions

and so on, so every class is a hard counter to another one, in a circle fashion…

guardians without virtues can still be immortal….

Your right, should be rephrased to block all boons for 6 seconds. Which is about on the same level as triggering revealed on a thief.

as a non stealth thief that has stomped countless rangers…i say….bring it

Konrad Curze.5130:

they should just make this widespread
give a class one ability to stop:

- warriors from gaining adrenaline
- guardians from using virtues
- mesmers from creating illusions

and so on, so every class is a hard counter to another one, in a circle fashion…

those are the main class mechanics, stealth isn’t our main class mechanic, it’s steal…so if they did what you suggested it would be an ability to prevent our steal.

Here’s what you’re forgetting: Revealed isn’t a hard counter. It’s a counter. It’s temporary. It lasts a few seconds and then ends. The ability of other classes to apply revealed temporarily doesn’t hard counter stealth any more than blocks and dodges hard counter damage, or condition clear hard counters conditions, etc.

Your frustration aside, you don’t know what a hard counter is. A hard counter is something that, when faced with it, you have little to no way of winning unless the enemy messes up extremely bad. A hard counter would be if a build could permanently keep the revealed debuff on you. This is not a hard counter, this is just a counter. A counter to a mechanic that, for the most part and for most classes, still has no other counter*. And no, spamming AoE attacking and hoping you guessed right and/or that the thief was stupid, is not an adequate counter.

Deal with it.

*Class balance aside, the mechanic itself has no counter. IMO this results in the currently broken state of the Thief where they suck at most things, but can’t be buffed in other places because of how powerful their stealth is.

ProxyDamage.9826:

Here’s what you’re forgetting: Revealed isn’t a hard counter. It’s a counter. It’s temporary. It lasts a few seconds and then ends. The ability of other classes to apply revealed temporarily doesn’t hard counter stealth any more than blocks and dodges hard counter damage, or condition clear hard counters conditions, etc.

Your frustration aside, you don’t know what a hard counter is. A hard counter is something that, when faced with it, you have little to no way of winning unless the enemy messes up extremely bad. A hard counter would be if a build could permanently keep the revealed debuff on you. This is not a hard counter, this is just a counter. A counter to a mechanic that, for the most part and for most classes, still has no other counter*. And no, spamming AoE attacking and hoping you guessed right and/or that the thief was stupid, is not an adequate counter.

Deal with it.

*Class balance aside, the mechanic itself has no counter. IMO this results in the currently broken state of the Thief where they suck at most things, but can’t be buffed in other places because of how powerful their stealth is.

Actually this is the definition of a hard counter towards stealth, though not a hard counter towards thieves. (There is a difference) This ability completely invalidates stealth for it duration and removes an benefits that stealth gives the affected. That is the very definition of a hard counter. That part that needs to be considered here is how large of a counter to thieves is a hard counter to stealth. If its a large counter which currently I think it is, then the class or stealth mechanic needs to be reworked.

My opinion remains that the change they should make is that when “in combat” stealth provides only the pseudo-invisibility that the thief npcs have throughout the world. Where they are basically a translucent shadow, very hard to see standing still but definitely noticeable to those looking carefully when moving. They would not be target able but would be hittable by any aoe or projectile. This would make it so they can still get the benefits of stealth other than the escapability of complete invisibility. This would also not pigeonhole the ability to deal with stealth.

What if detecting an invisible enemy was a boon on the detector and not on the invisible person. So, for example, someone who is invisible would appear (to the detecting person only) like one of the assassins in COF p2.

The invisible person would still get all the bonuses from being invisible (condition removal, boon generation, etc.).

It would therefore, take some coordination to track down the thief. “He’s to you’re right, left, behind you, he’s running away”

ProxyDamage.9826:

Here’s what you’re forgetting: Revealed isn’t a hard counter. It’s a counter. It’s temporary. It lasts a few seconds and then ends. The ability of other classes to apply revealed temporarily doesn’t hard counter stealth any more than blocks and dodges hard counter damage, or condition clear hard counters conditions, etc.

Your frustration aside, you don’t know what a hard counter is. A hard counter is something that, when faced with it, you have little to no way of winning unless the enemy messes up extremely bad. A hard counter would be if a build could permanently keep the revealed debuff on you. This is not a hard counter, this is just a counter. A counter to a mechanic that, for the most part and for most classes, still has no other counter*. And no, spamming AoE attacking and hoping you guessed right and/or that the thief was stupid, is not an adequate counter.

Deal with it.

*Class balance aside, the mechanic itself has no counter. IMO this results in the currently broken state of the Thief where they suck at most things, but can’t be buffed in other places because of how powerful their stealth is.

We’ll have to disagree about the semantics of the hard/soft counter terms at use here, but arguing semantics is usually a waste of time.

Revealed completely disables the Stealth mechanic while it’s active. Revealed disables the invisibility effect, but also all Stealth-related utility effects that the Thief traited for, as well as Stealth attacks that are paramount to offense for many Thief builds.

What I’m suggesting is a new mechanic that disables only the invisibility portion of the Stealth mechanic (and the targeting issues that come with it). This allows for counter-play to invisibility without completely crippling everything else tied to the Stealth mechanic.

Zacchary.6183:

Dat lack of punctuation.

On topic: TL;DR Offer a counter without completely negating a traitline.

I don’t want to hear it from you thieves. You want something that completely negates a traitline and a bunch of skills? Okay, have our pets. If they die, the beastmaster traitline is shut down, and the actives for our signets are shut down. I don’t want to hear it.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Zacchary.6183:

Dat lack of punctuation.

On topic: TL;DR Offer a counter without completely negating a traitline.

I don’t want to hear it from you thieves. You want something that completely negates a traitline and a bunch of skills? Okay, have our pets. If they die, the beastmaster traitline is shut down, and the actives for our signets are shut down. I don’t want to hear it.

Killing a pet takes it out of play, as much as killing anything else would take it out of play. This is not the same as applying an effect that disables the pet and pet-swap for x-seconds regardless of how much HP it had, which would qualify as a hard counter. Revealed disables Stealth and all its related effects for x-seconds regardless of how much Stealth duration remains on the Thief.

Doing enough damage to kill a pet is not trivial in a 1v1(2), especially since you have many potent options to prevent it from happening such as healing, pet swapping, defensive boons, and disables. If you’re built around your pet and let both of your pets die, of course you need to face the consequences.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Zacchary.6183:

Dat lack of punctuation.

On topic: TL;DR Offer a counter without completely negating a traitline.

I don’t want to hear it from you thieves. You want something that completely negates a traitline and a bunch of skills? Okay, have our pets. If they die, the beastmaster traitline is shut down, and the actives for our signets are shut down. I don’t want to hear it.

You have 2 pets. When one dies you bring the other one out and wait for the first one to recover. Pretty sure you aren’t as screwed as you think.

A quick disclaimer: I do not play a thief.

@OP: this is by far the most well formulated, sound and reasonable suggestion coming from a player that I have ever read on these forums. Hat off to you. I wish people like you were designing this game.

Zacchary.6183:

RyuDragnier.9476:

Zacchary.6183:

Dat lack of punctuation.

On topic: TL;DR Offer a counter without completely negating a traitline.

I don’t want to hear it from you thieves. You want something that completely negates a traitline and a bunch of skills? Okay, have our pets. If they die, the beastmaster traitline is shut down, and the actives for our signets are shut down. I don’t want to hear it.

You have 2 pets. When one dies you bring the other one out and wait for the first one to recover. Pretty sure you aren’t as screwed as you think.

You are when both of them are down, which is the same thing you guys are complaining about. Except it happens to rangers all the time…so really…think about us before you complain about it, since we’ve been dealing with it since the game launched.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Zacchary.6183:

RyuDragnier.9476:

Zacchary.6183:

Dat lack of punctuation.

On topic: TL;DR Offer a counter without completely negating a traitline.

I don’t want to hear it from you thieves. You want something that completely negates a traitline and a bunch of skills? Okay, have our pets. If they die, the beastmaster traitline is shut down, and the actives for our signets are shut down. I don’t want to hear it.

You have 2 pets. When one dies you bring the other one out and wait for the first one to recover. Pretty sure you aren’t as screwed as you think.

You are when both of them are down, which is the same thing you guys are complaining about. Except it happens to rangers all the time…so really…think about us before you complain about it, since we’ve been dealing with it since the game launched.

Yet you have the options to keep the pet alive where thieves can’t do anything about being revealed.

Is the Revealed debuff not removable with a condiremoval skill? If it is then why the eff is this even being discussed.

I don’t like Confusion, it is a hard counter to every one of my skills…

EDIT: If it isn’t removable, then good I hate thieves anyway.

nice said op, although i never ever in my pvp experience or wvwvw matched a thief with a build not relying on invisibility. there simply aren’t any (i myself play a mesmer in pvp in a completely different way than pve and of course i’m plenty of invisibility and invisibility buffs… and that is because so far it was the best defense ever).
any other class has had builds completely dismantled, and they were their strongest builds of course.
i still don’t know what to do with my mesmer since the 25th of june build wise, the only thing i know i spam confusion/conditions and invisibility in pvp (and i still die^^)

TooBz.3065:

What if detecting an invisible enemy was a boon on the detector and not on the invisible person. So, for example, someone who is invisible would appear (to the detecting person only) like one of the assassins in COF p2.

The invisible person would still get all the bonuses from being invisible (condition removal, boon generation, etc.).

It would therefore, take some coordination to track down the thief. “He’s to you’re right, left, behind you, he’s running away”

this this this this. Really good idea, it would allow the attacker to get an advantage on the thief but it wouldn’t completely deny the class of it’s traits and such.

Zacchary.6183:

RyuDragnier.9476:

Zacchary.6183:

RyuDragnier.9476:

Zacchary.6183:

Dat lack of punctuation.

On topic: TL;DR Offer a counter without completely negating a traitline.

I don’t want to hear it from you thieves. You want something that completely negates a traitline and a bunch of skills? Okay, have our pets. If they die, the beastmaster traitline is shut down, and the actives for our signets are shut down. I don’t want to hear it.

You have 2 pets. When one dies you bring the other one out and wait for the first one to recover. Pretty sure you aren’t as screwed as you think.

You are when both of them are down, which is the same thing you guys are complaining about. Except it happens to rangers all the time…so really…think about us before you complain about it, since we’ve been dealing with it since the game launched.

Yet you have the options to keep the pet alive where thieves can’t do anything about being revealed.

Yea, keeping it alive means not using it all the time. And don’t say that crap about F3 call it back from battle, when A) pets can’t dodge and always take time before actually coming to you and B) you can’t call it back to you because you are meleeing the foe too (again, I can dodge, pet can’t).

So now here’s the same option for thieves. Don’t use stealth so you don’t need to worry about revealed.

Sic ’Em:
40 second cd, 32 second if traited for shout cd reduction.
10 seconds of increased damage and movespeed for the the pet.

Sharp’s description on Sic ’Em’s possible reveal capability:
“Sick ‘Em will now apply ‘Revealed” to enemies they target.”
-The wording implies that using the shout immediately applies the reveal to the target, rather than granting the pet the ability to apply reveal.
-Ergo, the shout can “miss” if the ranger does not have a target or applies it to an unintended target.

Incorporating Sic ’Em usually implies that the ranger is using a beastmaster build, one that grants his pets improved stats and the ranger additional healing power. A beastmaster ranger largely deals single target damage. One can assume that the ranger would not be using Sic ’Em in a spirit build, trap build, or a power/prec build: these builds do not emphasis pet damage/survivability to the same extent. Thus, using this utility only to counter stealth means losing a utility when confronting a situation where the enemy has no stealth abilities.

Sic ’Em may indeed be a hard counter to stealth, but given that a ranger has to spec into a certain build to be most effective with Sic ’Em implies that the trade-off is not unfair. I hope that the incorporation of more anti-stealth mechanics will be as measured as this.

My Sweet Lily.1952:

Zacchary.6183:

RyuDragnier.9476:

Zacchary.6183:

RyuDragnier.9476:

Zacchary.6183:

Dat lack of punctuation.

On topic: TL;DR Offer a counter without completely negating a traitline.

I don’t want to hear it from you thieves. You want something that completely negates a traitline and a bunch of skills? Okay, have our pets. If they die, the beastmaster traitline is shut down, and the actives for our signets are shut down. I don’t want to hear it.

You have 2 pets. When one dies you bring the other one out and wait for the first one to recover. Pretty sure you aren’t as screwed as you think.

You are when both of them are down, which is the same thing you guys are complaining about. Except it happens to rangers all the time…so really…think about us before you complain about it, since we’ve been dealing with it since the game launched.

Yet you have the options to keep the pet alive where thieves can’t do anything about being revealed.

Yea, keeping it alive means not using it all the time. And don’t say that crap about F3 call it back from battle, when A) pets can’t dodge and always take time before actually coming to you and you can’t call it back to you because you are meleeing the foe too (again, I can dodge, pet can’t).

So now here’s the same option for thieves. Don’t use stealth so you don’t need to worry about revealed.

Its called Pet Management and it requires you to pay attention to your pet’s status. Letting your pet facetank while you mindlessly fire arrows into everything will get you killed.

WoW’s Hunter pets are a little harder to manage but the concept is the same across the board with pet-based classes. Things like prioritizing who defends and assaults, who tanks and heals, etc when the situation changes is is part of pet management which can be accomplished by watching your pet and their HP.

Your pet isn’t a meatshield, its an extension of your character. If you don’t treat it like a party member then you kinda earned your loss.

Piogre.2164:

TheJokester.4672:

ok he is crying stealth is revoked by revealed. ok use detected stealth still doesnt offer any help dps burst with stealth comes from backstab ie not being seen and able to get behind ur enemy even if u can use backstab ur still able to be seen ur not getting behind that guy

Play tf2 and you’ll see how easy it is to see an enemy, know where they are, and still let them slip by and backstab you

That’s ONLY the case with Deadringer … which even if you don’t have some kind of liquid to throw on them, you could still “feel” them when you bumped into them. And you’re probably saying “who would ever just walk straight into you when they’re trying to hide?”…. Well Deadringers for one b/c they got way too confident in it being practically an immortality mechanic against average players. Before the Icicle thing came along though, I used to have like 20-1 KDR’s against most of the best spies on my server with Puff&Sting pyro and I was not a high KDR player, no sir.

The same exact thing can be said about too much stealth in this game. Most thieves going glass just b/c they’re so used to stealth being a “get out of everything” for free card. …. Bad mechanics can literally turn otherwise good players into Bad Players

gaspara.4079:

Actually this is the definition of a hard counter towards stealth, though not a hard counter towards thieves. (There is a difference) This ability completely invalidates stealth for it duration and removes an benefits that stealth gives the affected. That is the very definition of a hard counter. That part that needs to be considered here is how large of a counter to thieves is a hard counter to stealth. If its a large counter which currently I think it is, then the class or stealth mechanic needs to be reworked.

My opinion remains that the change they should make is that when “in combat” stealth provides only the pseudo-invisibility that the thief npcs have throughout the world. Where they are basically a translucent shadow, very hard to see standing still but definitely noticeable to those looking carefully when moving. They would not be target able but would be hittable by any aoe or projectile. This would make it so they can still get the benefits of stealth other than the escapability of complete invisibility. This would also not pigeonhole the ability to deal with stealth.

Kaon.7192:

We’ll have to disagree about the semantics of the hard/soft counter terms at use here, but arguing semantics is usually a waste of time.

Revealed completely disables the Stealth mechanic while it’s active. Revealed disables the invisibility effect, but also all Stealth-related utility effects that the Thief traited for, as well as Stealth attacks that are paramount to offense for many Thief builds.

What I’m suggesting is a new mechanic that disables only the invisibility portion of the Stealth mechanic (and the targeting issues that come with it). This allows for counter-play to invisibility without completely crippling everything else tied to the Stealth mechanic.

Stability completely disables control effects, condition clear completely disables conditions, blocks completely disables any blockable attack (most in the game), etc.

You do not understand what a hard counter is. If this is your definition of a hard counter I’m pretty fine with it, and you should be too since it’s perfectly in-line with the rest of the mechanics in the game. If you aren’t fine then there are a lot more mechanics which suffer from the same problem which you should start complaining equally about.

ilr.9675:

Piogre.2164:

TheJokester.4672:

ok he is crying stealth is revoked by revealed. ok use detected stealth still doesnt offer any help dps burst with stealth comes from backstab ie not being seen and able to get behind ur enemy even if u can use backstab ur still able to be seen ur not getting behind that guy

Play tf2 and you’ll see how easy it is to see an enemy, know where they are, and still let them slip by and backstab you

That’s ONLY the case with Deadringer … which even if you don’t have some kind of liquid to throw on them, you could still “feel” them when you bumped into them. And you’re probably saying “who would ever just walk straight into you when they’re trying to hide?”…. Well Deadringers for one b/c they got way too confident in it being practically an immortality mechanic against average players. Before the Icicle thing came along though, I used to have like 20-1 KDR’s against most of the best spies on my server with Puff&Sting pyro and I was not a high KDR player, no sir.

The same exact thing can be said about too much stealth in this game. Most thieves going glass just b/c they’re so used to stealth being a “get out of everything” for free card. …. Bad mechanics can literally turn otherwise good players into Bad Players

This is exactly the problem with my fellow stealth dependent thieves. They can have perma stealth, which is the best defense, and the highest dps. Zero risk. Some of we thieves prefer a challenge, not easy mode.

ProxyDamage.9826:

gaspara.4079:

Actually this is the definition of a hard counter towards stealth, though not a hard counter towards thieves. (There is a difference) This ability completely invalidates stealth for it duration and removes an benefits that stealth gives the affected. That is the very definition of a hard counter. That part that needs to be considered here is how large of a counter to thieves is a hard counter to stealth. If its a large counter which currently I think it is, then the class or stealth mechanic needs to be reworked.

My opinion remains that the change they should make is that when “in combat” stealth provides only the pseudo-invisibility that the thief npcs have throughout the world. Where they are basically a translucent shadow, very hard to see standing still but definitely noticeable to those looking carefully when moving. They would not be target able but would be hittable by any aoe or projectile. This would make it so they can still get the benefits of stealth other than the escapability of complete invisibility. This would also not pigeonhole the ability to deal with stealth.

Kaon.7192:

We’ll have to disagree about the semantics of the hard/soft counter terms at use here, but arguing semantics is usually a waste of time.

Revealed completely disables the Stealth mechanic while it’s active. Revealed disables the invisibility effect, but also all Stealth-related utility effects that the Thief traited for, as well as Stealth attacks that are paramount to offense for many Thief builds.

What I’m suggesting is a new mechanic that disables only the invisibility portion of the Stealth mechanic (and the targeting issues that come with it). This allows for counter-play to invisibility without completely crippling everything else tied to the Stealth mechanic.

Stability completely disables control effects, condition clear completely disables conditions, blocks completely disables any blockable attack (most in the game), etc.

You do not understand what a hard counter is. If this is your definition of a hard counter I’m pretty fine with it, and you should be too since it’s perfectly in-line with the rest of the mechanics in the game. If you aren’t fine then there are a lot more mechanics which suffer from the same problem which you should start complaining equally about.

I actually am fine with this change, though I believe there is a better solution and that its the kind of thing that once they start adding revealed debuff to abilities could be a pain to remove and fix in a better way later. And this manner of countering stealth could lead to a need to majorly refactor thief traits to keep them viable, if they want to do that its fine with me.

Stability IS a hard counter towards control effects. Condition Removal IS NOT technically a hard counter for conditions as it doesn’t prevent them just wipes them, so its a strong counter but not a true hard counter. Blocks/Dodges/Immunity/reflect ARE hard counters to direct damage just as unblockable IS a hard counter to blocks/reflects.

ProxyDamage.9826:

gaspara.4079:

Actually this is the definition of a hard counter towards stealth, though not a hard counter towards thieves. (There is a difference) This ability completely invalidates stealth for it duration and removes an benefits that stealth gives the affected. That is the very definition of a hard counter. That part that needs to be considered here is how large of a counter to thieves is a hard counter to stealth. If its a large counter which currently I think it is, then the class or stealth mechanic needs to be reworked.

My opinion remains that the change they should make is that when “in combat” stealth provides only the pseudo-invisibility that the thief npcs have throughout the world. Where they are basically a translucent shadow, very hard to see standing still but definitely noticeable to those looking carefully when moving. They would not be target able but would be hittable by any aoe or projectile. This would make it so they can still get the benefits of stealth other than the escapability of complete invisibility. This would also not pigeonhole the ability to deal with stealth.

Kaon.7192:

We’ll have to disagree about the semantics of the hard/soft counter terms at use here, but arguing semantics is usually a waste of time.

Revealed completely disables the Stealth mechanic while it’s active. Revealed disables the invisibility effect, but also all Stealth-related utility effects that the Thief traited for, as well as Stealth attacks that are paramount to offense for many Thief builds.

What I’m suggesting is a new mechanic that disables only the invisibility portion of the Stealth mechanic (and the targeting issues that come with it). This allows for counter-play to invisibility without completely crippling everything else tied to the Stealth mechanic.

Stability completely disables control effects, condition clear completely disables conditions, blocks completely disables any blockable attack (most in the game), etc.

You do not understand what a hard counter is. If this is your definition of a hard counter I’m pretty fine with it, and you should be too since it’s perfectly in-line with the rest of the mechanics in the game. If you aren’t fine then there are a lot more mechanics which suffer from the same problem which you should start complaining equally about.

Stability does not disable the CC mechanic completely for your target (he can still choose to use CC’s on other targets), and doesn’t remove existing CC effects unless the skill itself is a stun-breaker.

Similarly, block does not stop your target from attacking others, or from using unblockable attacks on you.

This distinction is important because the game is not meant to be balanced around solely 1v1 situations. Yes, these are still “hard counters” in my definition, but CC, direct damage, condi application (Condition clear doesn’t even make you immune to new condition applications, so I’m not sure why you even brought it up. Condi immunity, however, does qualify as a hard counter) are all game-wide mechanics that all classes have roughly equal access to. As stated clearly in the OP, I only have a problem with the concept of hard-counters for class-specific mechanics.

Revealed is targeted specifically to disable a player from using the Stealth mechanic completely for its duration. Although Stealth is available to other classes, Thieves suffer disproportionately from Revealed due to their dependance on the Stealth mechanic (I’m not talking about the invisibility aspect) to access some of their best forms of defense, sustain, control and burst.

If the problem people have is with the invisibility aspect of Stealth, develop a counter for the invisibility. Leave the rest of the mechanic alone.

Please, QQ more thief. Such tears are sweet and salty.

The signal to noise ratio in here is astounding by the way.

Makes me appreciate the people trying to engage in an actual discussion, even if we’re in disagreement.

TooBz.3065:

What if detecting an invisible enemy was a boon on the detector and not on the invisible person. So, for example, someone who is invisible would appear (to the detecting person only) like one of the assassins in COF p2.

The invisible person would still get all the bonuses from being invisible (condition removal, boon generation, etc.).

It would therefore, take some coordination to track down the thief. “He’s to you’re right, left, behind you, he’s running away”

This method could work just as well as what I suggested.

More testing will have to go into this to determine which method would be the better approach. But both are certainly much more fair to the Thief than simply giving everybody access to Revealed.

Just watched the livestream. Ranger Sic Em will apply 4s Revealed instantly, and cannot be dodged.

It’s worse than I thought. No possibility for counter play except perma-stealthing so they can’t acquire a target to begin with.

Disgusting.

Kaon.7192:

Just watched the livestream. Ranger Sic Em will apply 4s Revealed instantly, and cannot be dodged.

It’s worse than I thought. No possibility for counter play except perma-stealthing so they can’t acquire a target to begin with.

Disgusting.

Stealth is a cowards crutch anyways.

TheJokester.4672:

ok he is crying stealth is revoked by revealed. ok use detected stealth still doesnt offer any help dps burst with stealth comes from backstab ie not being seen and able to get behind ur enemy even if u can use backstab ur still able to be seen ur not getting behind that guy most classes will still hit u for 2-4k on crits maybe more I’ve seen 5k with my gs and axe on thieves ie half their life detected ok u heal ur not invis I still beat the kitten out of u and u can’t apply pressure because u can’t make proper use of stealth skills for the simple fact I can see your movements

Edit: In the end get skill maybe you will learn what it’s like to be seen by everything. as for sic’em needs a target to use pet has to hit you so dodge pet attack and maintain stealth like u always do because u suck at the game I’ll admit I haven’t played mine in a while and I can’t seem to kill anything but I can survive zergs easy with stealth just being able to escape with no effort is what is getting changed ie make ur fight initiation extreme or ur dead

I play a Warrior as my 2nd char after my Thief so I know what it’s like to be seen by everything, what’s funny is that Warrior is a much easier class to play than a Thief. Hammer/LB & Mace/GS is SIGNIFICANTLY easier to play and be effective than a Thief imho.

Kaon.7192:

Just watched the livestream. Ranger Sic Em will apply 4s Revealed instantly, and cannot be dodged.

It’s worse than I thought. No possibility for counter play except perma-stealthing so they can’t acquire a target to begin with.

Disgusting.

Not that bad tbh, a hard counter is better than no counter at all.