Guild Wars 2

…that I believe is incredibly wrong with the game. I’m not going to make a long, drawn-out post or anything as I’m sure you can draw your own conclusions, but I’ll just go ahead and post this screenshot and let the discussion commence.

I logged in today in Queensdale on an alt and immediately saw the person in the whispers raging at someone in map chat. This is what happened.

What did the other 10-20 people in the zerg say to the guy?

Panda Shepard.1248:

What did the other 10-20 people in the zerg say to the guy?

Everyone was raging in map chat at the guy, this is just the first person I saw do it in chat so I messaged him about it and got this. He promptly ignored me as well.

So all of the people in the train were yelling in map chat at this person?

I guess the best policy is to myob and stay out of other peoples concerns. You just logged in and really, you weren’t directly involved. I say this reagardless of the fact that I believe people can kill what they want and when they want. But move on, play the game like you want to, let others play the way they want, stay away from direct confrontations, no matter if you like the train or not.

Blude.6812:

I guess the best policy is to myob and stay out of other peoples concerns. You just logged in and really, you weren’t directly involved. I say this reagardless of the fact that I believe people can kill what they want and when they want. But move on, play the game like you want to, let others play the way they want, stay away from direct confrontations, no matter if you like the train or not.

You have a good point. I’m just posting this here because I think it’s a big problem that the community treats others this way when they kill bosses in the wrong order….

People in the champ train should reflect on the possibility that ANet might decide to nerf the champ trains to cut down on reports of abusive language rather than increasing their GM budget to handle them.

I don’t advocate nerfing events because of rude behavior, but aside from account suspensions and bans, removing the cause of the disagreements is the only recourse ANet has. People who want the trains to continue should be telling other trainers to keep it civil, and should use negative reinforcement if need be. It’s in their own best interests.

…just sayin’.

IndigoSundown.5419:

…just sayin’.

I see what you did there.

+ 1 Indigo, and the additional issue with Queensdale is that it is the most popular map for leveling new chars, so many of the new (and trial) accounts run over this problem way too early. Get started in game, do a few personal story quests, explore your first map , find a cave, touch a stone ……. and get half the map raging at you :-)
Not good at all from a business perspective.

Silver.3284:

+ 1 Indigo, and the additional issue with Queensdale is that it is the most popular map for leveling new chars, so many of the new (and trial) accounts run over this problem way too early. Get started in game, do a few personal story quests, explore your first map , find a cave, touch a stone ……. and get half the map raging at you :-)
Not good at all from a business perspective.

I agree, that’s really why I have the biggest problem with it. It’s because new players will instantly be turned off to the game if they’re treated this way just for PLAYING THE GAME.

The Queensdale train is on its way to an imminent nerf by anet. I do enjoy the train from time to time but the community has made it a nuisance by being immature and selfish by believing they are all that matters and if a group or “private partiers” come across and kill the Oak (i.e.) solely by adventuring, they are wrong and they are a** holes. When it gets nerfed remember, it was the community, not Anet that caused it.

I agree and I can’t wait for its nerf. People need to stop this kind of behavior and if that’s what it takes then so be it. You have a source where they stated 100% that it would be nerfed?

No I don’t but with the constant behavior I’ve witnessed ingame and the amount of complaints on this forum I can guarantee it’s only a matter of time. It’s as simple as a change in spawn times.

I guess it comes down to the game’s concept: Leveling a char for the first time and experiencing the world for the first time is breath-taking, there’s lots fun and beautiful content.
After that it turns to complete kitten imo; and the community that sticks around is not motivated by fun, but other motives – to put it really nicely. (braindead farmers, hardcore addicts, ragers)

I was gonna write a lot more, but all that would’ve been left of it would’ve been kittenkittenkittensonofakittenkitten plus infractions worth multiple life time bans anyway, so yeah.

I’m leveling a new alt I started yesterday and have been playing in Qdale. On my server there is at least one player whose sole reasion for playing the zone is to derail the train. He makes no bones about it. I don’t know if it’s simply opportunistic trolling or whether he’s out to save the world from champ trains—same difference. I’ve personally felt like yelling at him and I was just there doing map completion.

The whole train dynamic is a bizarre game design anomaly. Can you imagine someone creating it as a playstyle? Still, it’s a way to realize some reward in the game and even I do it occasionally for the monthly or simply some gold.

I don’t want to see it nerfed or stopped. I would much prefer that reward is introduced across the game in such a way that a variety of playstyles will realize a similar level of reward. The champ train is an anomaly that will die a natural death once reasonable alternatives are introduced.

The problem is that reasonable alternatives are not reasonable at all. Champ farming, especially in queensdale, requires no knowledge of the game or skill apart from knowing the sequence and location of 4 mobs and being able to wp and run fast. Personally I do not think this should give any rewards at all, so any “alternative” the trainers would find reasonable (giving the same money in as little time and with as little effort) would be in fact totally unreasonable (too much money in too little time for too little effort) in my book at least. I am not against farming, but it does not need to and should not be braindead.

You should have posted part of the map chat. Just from that whisper it’s hard to tell whether the person they were raging at was some innocent person who came across an event, or if it was one of those people who go to queens for the sole purpose of trolling.

(Even if that’s the case, they still shouldn’t respond to them in an aggressive manner, they’re just giving them ammo to use against them)

scribbles note

Take low level characters to Queensdale and do random champ events. Remember to type “I didnt know!” in the chat every time someone complain

Does Queensdale attract elitist noobs or something? When we do the champ run in Frostgorge (which actually gives decent loot instead of crap like the downleveled champs in Queensdale) sure we sometimes see people “interrupting” the chain. But it doesnt happen that often and if it does, its like meh just continue to the next champ, faster than typing in chat

Some people really need to put their big boy pants on and stop kittening about every little thing.

Again, there is a misperception about players farming Queensdale for loot. Most of them are there for karma and to get the daily event done.

Not promoting either the champ train nor those who feel they can play the game anyway they like.

I do feel both “tastes great” and “less filling” sides need to remain mature and remember that they are part of the same server community (sans those who actually do make it a point to guest in order to “grief” a rival WvW server.)

I always run with mapchat off in Queensdale unless I am temporarily joining the zerg to get a daily done … with an alt I am leveling. While I am in mapchat, if there are new players, I help explain what is happening, give directions, and answer whatever questions I can. I will try to smooth out chat (both sides) if someone erupts, and mostly just suggest the next champ if one has been killed. Spawn rates aren’t that long.

Couple things contribute to everything happening in Queensdale (as have been noted in multiple threads):

1) Queensdale is easy to get around.

2) Queensdale is a fairly enjoyable zone – rolling hills, pleasant scenery, nice ambiance.

3) Queensdale champions provide karma. (Frostgorge does not).

4) Spawn rates on the champs in Queensdale are fairly predictable.

5) A lot of the daily event requirements occur in Kryta. Of these, Queensdale is most populated. See: 1-4 above. Makes finding an event even easier.

6) Frostgorge Champions often go down faster than the ones in Queensdale (your mileage may vary), making it frustrating for players with slower/older PCs to get there in a timely way.

7) Human beings, like water, will usually take the path of least resistance.

8) Human beings are also creatures of habit.

Yes, player behavior is part of the problem.

So is game design/rewards.

Go to Frostgorge and stop annoying the new people.

-wouws wise words

The zerg train only exists for those riding it, there is no game mechanic or event that entitles individuals or a group exclusive use of content period.
I enjoy doing the zerg train occasionally for daily and monthly achievements but I also support openly in map chat other players rights to do as they please even if they are deliberately trying to derail the train.
The way I see it the very people that want to keep the train running will ultimately be responsible for its own demise if they do not adjust their thinking and behaviour towards others.
I would rather be able to do dynamic events in a live and populated world instead of a train, zerg or dungeon path grinding however that is a whole different topic of game design and implementation.

It’s the player’s themselves who create/d these ‘trains’. Not entirely fair to blame the game for it.
Both Trolls don’t have a 10,000 radius skill that pulls players towards them. Neither do I blame ppl for doing them.

lol.

Dawdler.8521:

When we do the champ run in Frostgorge (which actually gives decent loot instead of crap like the downleveled champs in Queensdale) sure we sometimes see people “interrupting” the chain. But it doesnt happen that often and if it does, its like meh just continue to the next champ, faster than typing in chat

This. The FG champ train just seems overall more mature and friendly. We have playful banter, aren’t jerks when someone asks “where’s the train!?” even though there are like 3 commander tags up on one spot (if only people would look at their maps lol), if someone kills a champ out of order, no one seems to care, they just move on to the next one. I dunno, it just seems more easy-going in Frostgorge.

As far as Qdale farming goes: my guildies do it for two reasons: 1) to do the monthly or daily event completion as it is pretty much the fastest method and 2) for loot/money. Not one of them does it for karma.

What if Anet gave us epic escort missions that zig zag though the whole zone setting off pumped up versions of dynamic quest and spawning champs? Do you think anyone would do it?

snicker My cheers to the “kitten” that ruffled the zergs feathers.

Yes, even though I run the hamster wheel in QD on occasion, I do enjoy watching people get po’ed because their rotation gets messed up. Makes me laugh at their sorry uptight selves every time.

I only have problems with folks that are going out of their way to spoil the train. Otherwise, just move to the next champ and life goes on. I still recall when a small party politely asked the Icezerg in map chat if they could tackle the Champ Quaggan on their own without interference. The response was nothing but positive and folks cheered them on and wished them well. And yes, we just bypassed them and let them have their fun/challenge.

Henri Blanche.8276:

I only have problems with folks that are going out of their way to spoil the train. Otherwise, just move to the next champ and life goes on. I still recall when a small party politely asked the Icezerg in map chat if they could tackle the Champ Quaggan on their own without interference. The response was nothing but positive and folks cheered them on and wished them well. And yes, we just bypassed them and let them have their fun/challenge.

If someone, or a group of someones is simply playing along why should they have to ask the zerg for permission to simply play? They have as much right to do the content as the zerg.

To me, this is like having to ask your spouse if its ok to sleep, or to eat, or to use the bathroom. You shouldn’t have to ask permission to do something that should be considered as part of the natural order.

Raine.1394:

I’m leveling a new alt I started yesterday and have been playing in Qdale. On my server there is at least one player whose sole reasion for playing the zone is to derail the train. He makes no bones about it. I don’t know if it’s simply opportunistic trolling or whether he’s out to save the world from champ trains—same difference.
snip

I approve of that. I might have to take up that banner too.

Good grief this again? It is pretty simple. Play the way you want within the rules. If you want to go kill something kill it. If you want to zerg in circles for hours do it. If someone says something to you that you don’t like block them. If what they say violates the language policy report them and block them. This, “well he said this and then so and so said that” stuff is juvenile. In certain situations I just turn /map off so I don’t have to read all the childish dialog and I go about my business as usual. It makes things easy.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Henri Blanche.8276:

I only have problems with folks that are going out of their way to spoil the train. Otherwise, just move to the next champ and life goes on. I still recall when a small party politely asked the Icezerg in map chat if they could tackle the Champ Quaggan on their own without interference. The response was nothing but positive and folks cheered them on and wished them well. And yes, we just bypassed them and let them have their fun/challenge.

If someone, or a group of someones is simply playing along why should they have to ask the zerg for permission to simply play? They have as much right to do the content as the zerg.

To me, this is like having to ask your spouse if its ok to sleep, or to eat, or to use the bathroom. You shouldn’t have to ask permission to do something that should be considered as part of the natural order.

Because if you know there’s a train that usually kills a champ, it’s polite to ask first. Polite, ya know, the whole ‘treating people how you’d like to be treated’ thing?

rizzo.1079:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Henri Blanche.8276:

I only have problems with folks that are going out of their way to spoil the train. Otherwise, just move to the next champ and life goes on. I still recall when a small party politely asked the Icezerg in map chat if they could tackle the Champ Quaggan on their own without interference. The response was nothing but positive and folks cheered them on and wished them well. And yes, we just bypassed them and let them have their fun/challenge.

If someone, or a group of someones is simply playing along why should they have to ask the zerg for permission to simply play? They have as much right to do the content as the zerg.

To me, this is like having to ask your spouse if its ok to sleep, or to eat, or to use the bathroom. You shouldn’t have to ask permission to do something that should be considered as part of the natural order.

Because if you know there’s a train that usually kills a champ, it’s polite to ask first. Polite, ya know, the whole ‘treating people how you’d like to be treated’ thing?

I don’t think politeness has anything to do with it. You don’t need to ask for permission to kill something in the game because someone else (or a group of someones) might come around and want to kill it.

If people want to run a train, that is their choice. But that choice is not binding on anyone else. Making choices comes with a certain degree of implicit responsibility. The people in the train need to take responsibility for the fact that one of the creatures they might want to kill will be already dead; that’s the chance they are taking and implicitly agreeing to.

pdg.8462:

rizzo.1079:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Henri Blanche.8276:

I only have problems with folks that are going out of their way to spoil the train. Otherwise, just move to the next champ and life goes on. I still recall when a small party politely asked the Icezerg in map chat if they could tackle the Champ Quaggan on their own without interference. The response was nothing but positive and folks cheered them on and wished them well. And yes, we just bypassed them and let them have their fun/challenge.

If someone, or a group of someones is simply playing along why should they have to ask the zerg for permission to simply play? They have as much right to do the content as the zerg.

To me, this is like having to ask your spouse if its ok to sleep, or to eat, or to use the bathroom. You shouldn’t have to ask permission to do something that should be considered as part of the natural order.

Because if you know there’s a train that usually kills a champ, it’s polite to ask first. Polite, ya know, the whole ‘treating people how you’d like to be treated’ thing?

I don’t think politeness has anything to do with it. You don’t need to ask for permission to kill something in the game because someone else (or a group of someones) might come around and want to kill it.

If people want to run a train, that is their choice. But that choice is not binding on anyone else. Making choices comes with a certain degree of implicit responsibility. The people in the train need to take responsibility for the fact that one of the creatures they might want to kill will be already dead.

But politeness has everything to do with it. The interaction that was described was a civilized one wherein everyone was polite to everyone else and no confrontation or foul language was necessary. It’s not the ‘asking for permission’ part that is important in the interaction, it’s recognizing that there are other people playing the game and treating them respectfully.

rizzo.1079:

But politeness has everything to do with it. The interaction that was described was a civilized one wherein everyone was polite to everyone else and no confrontation or foul language was necessary. It’s not the ‘asking for permission’ part that is important in the interaction, it’s recognizing that there are other people playing the game and treating them respectfully.

I recognize that other people play the game. I even acknowledge that being polite usually gets you further; however, by the logic you are presenting, a player should ask in map chat anytime they want to do something because who knows someone else might already have plans or designs on doing it and could potentially be upset because someone else did it, and they now have to wait for the next time. (Wow, long sentence) This sort of defeats the purpose of “just playing.”

This is like saying you should politely ask the players in Lunatic Inquisition if its ok that you actually try to win as a villager. Or having to ask your teammate if its ok that you help them on their kill.

Do we? No. Why? These things are expected because that’s how the game works. They are a part of the natural play and design of the game. The same should go for a person, or players, attempting to take on a champion outside of the zerg. Its a natural part of the play.

You’re reading way too much into this. Honestly if there’s a train you should just run with it unless you really have a burning need to kill a champ yourself. Running with the train means more loot for everyone, you included. If you have a compulsion to kill champs by yourself, there are a load of zones without trains and only 2 zones with them. For example, I just soloed the champ ooze in Metrica the other day because I felt like soloing a champ.

That said, is it in any way proper to yell at someone for killing a champ out of order? Absolutely not.

rizzo.1079:

pdg.8462:

rizzo.1079:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Henri Blanche.8276:

I only have problems with folks that are going out of their way to spoil the train. Otherwise, just move to the next champ and life goes on. I still recall when a small party politely asked the Icezerg in map chat if they could tackle the Champ Quaggan on their own without interference. The response was nothing but positive and folks cheered them on and wished them well. And yes, we just bypassed them and let them have their fun/challenge.

If someone, or a group of someones is simply playing along why should they have to ask the zerg for permission to simply play? They have as much right to do the content as the zerg.

To me, this is like having to ask your spouse if its ok to sleep, or to eat, or to use the bathroom. You shouldn’t have to ask permission to do something that should be considered as part of the natural order.

Because if you know there’s a train that usually kills a champ, it’s polite to ask first. Polite, ya know, the whole ‘treating people how you’d like to be treated’ thing?

I don’t think politeness has anything to do with it. You don’t need to ask for permission to kill something in the game because someone else (or a group of someones) might come around and want to kill it.

If people want to run a train, that is their choice. But that choice is not binding on anyone else. Making choices comes with a certain degree of implicit responsibility. The people in the train need to take responsibility for the fact that one of the creatures they might want to kill will be already dead.

But politeness has everything to do with it. The interaction that was described was a civilized one wherein everyone was polite to everyone else and no confrontation or foul language was necessary. It’s not the ‘asking for permission’ part that is important in the interaction, it’s recognizing that there are other people playing the game and treating them respectfully.

I will take it that the request was “to take the champ without interference”.

On one hand, it is encouraging to see the mutual respect shown by both groups. On the other hand… I’m just concerned that making such a request reinforces any misconception that the champtrain owns the champs when in reality, both groups are just as entitled to take the champ.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

To me, this is like having to ask your spouse if its ok to sleep, or to eat, or to use the bathroom. You shouldn’t have to ask permission to do something that should be considered as part of the natural order.

If you want to eat at 5:30 so you can be finished before you have to be someplace, I would say that asking the SO/housemate/whatever for that is a very good idea. Talking to each other and communicating your intentions is a very important part of getting along with others. It is a very minor thing to ask the train to steer clear of your challenging kill attempt, rather than having a zerg train unaware of your intentions plowing into the middle of your attempt and then getting upset at them simply for doing what they do.

RedShipRaider.9560:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

To me, this is like having to ask your spouse if its ok to sleep, or to eat, or to use the bathroom. You shouldn’t have to ask permission to do something that should be considered as part of the natural order.

If you want to eat at 5:30 so you can be finished before you have to be someplace, I would say that asking the SO/housemate/whatever for that is a very good idea. Talking to each other and communicating your intentions is a very important part of getting along with others. It is a very minor thing to ask the train to steer clear of your challenging kill attempt, rather than having a zerg train unaware of your intentions plowing into the middle of your attempt and then getting upset at them simply for doing what they do.

This misses the point entirely. Person a few posts up caught the general principle, the champ trains do not own the champs. Anyone can do them, in any order. Anyone can jump in, at any point. Just as your significant other does not own you, you are your own person and can make your own choices.

The example you give, while highlighting that communication is indeed important (won’t deny they, ever), is not quite the same vein of thought.

Maybe we could have an instanced train zerg ! That way everyone will be able to play as they please.
On a more serious note I am an advocate for the train but the abuse I witnessed tonight directed at anyone that dare do anything in the map without asking permission just makes me feel the train needs to die.
I report people abusing others but I am beginning to feel its just not enough.

mergi.1407:

I report people abusing others but I am beginning to feel its just not enough.

People that abuse others in chat will end up ostracizing themselves. People will continue to block them and eventually they will find they are talking to themselves in chat with a few 72 hour vacations. People need to let the system work and stop making a big deal out of it. It isn’t like garbage talk in chat is new and unique to zerg farming.

See the horse.
It is dead.
Beat the horse.
Keep beating it…

I have read a lot of the same posts scattered all over the forum.

Now, what this means to me is that there is definitely an issue that needs to be coherently discussed with some developer input, and that maybe at some point something needs to be done one way or the other in-game.

But is it so hard to search the threads before posting a new one that doesn’t really add anything to the arguments already presented?

TehPwnerer.7215:

Panda Shepard.1248:

What did the other 10-20 people in the zerg say to the guy?

Everyone was raging in map chat at the guy, this is just the first person I saw do it in chat so I messaged him about it and got this. He promptly ignored me as well.

I would have iggied you long before he did, you guys(the zergs don’t own the rights to doing those events, get over yourselves, and the report sent was real cool, the all powerful OZ.

No matter if the exchange between the train and other players are civil, a train still goes against the idea of an open world where everyone plays and helps or not as they wish. It is a very artificial play style created by players and in a zone like Queensdale it creates problems because it gives new players a bad impression and teaches them bad habbits. That said I do not run with the train, nor do I disrupt them, hell I have even put up karma banners and the like for people who do run the train. It is a situation thst needs to be adresses though. I am not sure how to do that other than make DEs more rewarding. sorry for the wall of text, my phone won’ t paragraph

Simple fix … put the karma jugs back in the kitten game and make the Queensdale champs only drop blue bags. If people want to farm champs make them go to frostgorge and leave the lowbies to level in peace.

The above is said as someone that champ farms Frostgorge every day.

Actually, I think Anet has done something about them. It seems, according to yet another thread that they have nerfed the loot, so the trains may stop on their own.

Good luck saving for a precursor now.

leprekan.7248:

Simple fix … put the karma jugs back in the kitten game and make the Queensdale champs only drop blue bags. If people want to farm champs make them go to frostgorge and leave the lowbies to level in peace.

The above is said as someone that champ farms Frostgorge every day.

This doesn’t stop the train and screws people over for no reason. Many, many people use the train the level alts in Queensdale.
That being said, the trains don’t need to be stopped anyway. The people in the trains and the people outside need to learn to be aware of each other and not throw fits of rage over it.

I agree with the OP, 100%

The over arcing problem is getting max level players into a wide variety of zones, such as queensdale, timberline falls, etc. Whats the reason to go there, aside from map completion? So they need to make champs, or something, worth while. Since the zone is a bit easier than an Orr or Frostgorge, people congregate to the easiest and most profitable. Zergs are born. And these people arise.

I dont know of a solution. I just know that this type of behavior is toxic for a game and its reputation. Ive seen on fansites people are already starting to view GW2 in a negative manner when it comes to these things.

Ashabhi.1365:

See the horse.
It is dead.
Beat the horse.
Keep beating it…

I have read a lot of the same posts scattered all over the forum.

Now, what this means to me is that there is definitely an issue that needs to be coherently discussed with some developer input, and that maybe at some point something needs to be done one way or the other in-game.

But is it so hard to search the threads before posting a new one that doesn’t really add anything to the arguments already presented?

beats the horse more
Also, the search feature is still broken.

Morrigan.2809:

No matter if the exchange between the train and other players are civil, a train still goes against the idea of an open world where everyone plays and helps or not as they wish. It is a very artificial play style created by players and in a zone like Queensdale it creates problems because it gives new players a bad impression and teaches them bad habbits. That said I do not run with the train, nor do I disrupt them, hell I have even put up karma banners and the like for people who do run the train. It is a situation thst needs to be adresses though. I am not sure how to do that other than make DEs more rewarding. sorry for the wall of text, my phone won’ t paragraph

I wouldn’t say the train goes against the idea of the open world necessarily. Anet has acknowledged that they are ‘ok’ with that play style. The zerg is simply playing how they "enjoy (using that term really loosely here) playing. However, their type of play should not inhibit another person’s play type.

Both sides sort of need to be more accepting of the other. If a person kills a champ out of the zergs ideal order, the zerg should suck it up and move on, not rag on the person for simply playing. Conversely, individual players should not ‘expect’ to be the only person trying to kill such foes. They need to accept that other people (and possibly the zerg) can jump in at any time too.