Guild Wars 2

So I just encountered a dynamic event, where im supposed to kill this raven shaman, vilnia shadowsong. Anyway before you go in some npc is like “oh she slays children we’ve been hunting her down for weeks.” I go in the cave, she has a sidekick, i zerk on them and win. The fight was kinda fun but then I realized this was totally inappropriate for a DE. It should have been a mission chain. Something that takes more investigation. I feel like I just waltz into the middle of some epic story and took 60 seconds to slay a boss. Everything about it felt quite superficial, nothing personal. This is what wooden potatoes was talking about, the game is hollow. Plus I couldnt help but laugh because I remembered the Manifesto Trailer. Ree Soesbee, game designer, say in the manifesto trailer “everybody around you is doing the same thing you’re doing, the boss you just killed respawns 10 minutes later, it doesn’t care that im there.”

Wow Ree, you guys really fixed the problem in gw2. Vilnia, a boss that has promising roots behind it, doesnt respawn 10 minutes later, it respawns 20 minutes later!!! A whole 10 minute difference. Anyway this is exactly where DE’s make no sense. The nature of DE’s should be events that make sense to periodically happen. Like a village sacked by svanir, or a dragon champion attack. Not me killing a boss, and seeing it respawn 10 minutes later. This is why you need quests, missions, call it whatever you want.

SkylightMoon.1980:

This is why you need quests, missions, call it whatever you want.

Wouldn’t adding quests be the exact same thing that you are complaining about?

“Let’s complain about the manifesto and call what Ree said a lie! The game doesn’t care if I am there, the boss respawned 10 minutes later, and everyone is doing the same thing I am!”

“We need quests because of this! Quests that everyone is doing the same thing, the boss we kill respawns 10 minutes later, and it doesn’t care that I am there!”

Quite contradictory of you. You complain about something that you feel is a lie, and then you want to introduce something that is exactly what you are complaining about.

Umm… what?

No it wouldnt. Because quests/missions whatever, would be instanced, and one-time only for your char. The difference between quest lines and DE’s are that quests are not repeatable, they are one time only, and meant to tell a story. There could be some detailed quest-line telling the story of this child murdering vilnia shadowsong.

Maybe there was a quest chain, but you missed it?

Anyhow, I agree the DE system has pros and cons. The dragon fights for example, with their timer. Not much fun if you can predict the start of the “dynamic” event to the minute. Or that you run into some DEs multiple times if you have to go back in a map for whatever reason.

But I do like the way NPC run up to you to ask for help. That feels immersive. I like the creativity of some quests (for example the children playing a game in queensdale).
And I do appreciate it that when a farmer asks for help because bandits are raiding his farm, there are actually bandits raiding his farm, instead of just simply standing around in his field doing nothing.
Traditional quest: “help help, bandits are raiding my farm! Kill 20 of them and bring back badges as proof!” So here you go, killing 20 bandits. When you are done, you turn in the badges, the farmer thanks you for “saving his farm”, but when you turn around, those 20 bandits have respawned and are once again just standing in the same field you just left. Where is the immersion in that?

But yeh, maybe the game could use some traditional quests to get some more depth in there. A few, mind you And they would look more like “investigate this spot to find X”. “Help, my daughter has just been kidnapped!” should always be a DE.

And they should put the “dynamic” back in some DEs, instead of those blasted timers.

SkylightMoon.1980:

No it wouldnt. Because quests/missions whatever, would be instanced, and one-time only for your char. The difference between quest lines and DE’s are that quests are not repeatable, they are one time only, and meant to tell a story. There could be some detailed quest-line telling the story of this child murdering vilnia shadowsong.

Instanced? So you basically want to turn this into a single player game. This is an MMO. Questing shouldn’t be instanced.

And if they are one-time only quests (like traditional MMOs), then what would be the incentive to go back to that area again once you finish all the quests? It would be a dead area once players do all the quests and move on. Zones would end up like they are in other MMOs. Dead. Since you did all the quests there, there is no reason to go back there.

In GW2, events will always be there. If you don’t want to move onto the next area yet, you can stay in the zone you are and keep doing events you’ve already done and be rewarded level appropriate experience for them. So if you love a certain area, you can level up in just that area if you wanted. You can’t do that with quests. You have to move onto another area once you do all the quests.

Most DE’s have a story behind them. It just takes a little talking to learn it. Talk to NPCs in the area, talk to Scouts, talk to the Heart NPCs or the person who comes running up to you to tell you about a DE going on nearby. They will tell you about what is going on in the area and give you a backstory so you are not lost. But a lot of people don’t do that and then they complain that there is no story to anything. There is, you just have to talk to people to learn it.

Don’t we already have instanced quests? I think they are called Personal Story in this game, and once done, forever gone. =)

Spyder, I think you misunderstand the satisfaction of quest chains, they arnt for everyone. No its not a single player game, there is plenty of instance content in this game. Personal story and f&f missions were. I liked f&f missions i just wish there were more of them. Im certainly not suggesting the whole game be quest chains. DE’s are great, and satisfy a certain hunger the player needs. Because they are repeatable and bring liveliness to the zone. Quest chains help tell a story, in an epic one time way that DE’s cant. They also make sense for certain types of plots as well. I think its also a good way to introduce vanity items.

The encounter you describe is guarding a skill point. Usually in these cases there’s a Veteran (local enemy or monster) guarding the “commune with nature” skill point, but this time it’s an NPC, an evil shaman. I don’t really get why this is such a problem to you. It’s just a bit of flavor that makes it more than “kill this griffon so I can get to the skill point.”

Now, sometimes during development plans change, and things get cut from the game. Perhaps instead of a skill point it was going to be a jumping puzzle or something, with the evil shaman at the end. But they couldn’t get something right or had a different idea for the area and they adapted what they had into the skill point and its guardian.

In real life, things don’t always happen the way you want them to.

The moment you realize DEs aren’t dynamic at all.

Nick.6972:

The moment you realize DEs aren’t dynamic at all.

You mean, the first time I read about them?

Ambitious, but impossible to implement in an MMO with the current technology.

Renamed quests which you don’t have to take.

Queensdale Cave Troll. ’nuffsaid.

Nick.6972:

Renamed quests which you don’t have to take.

The fact that you dont have to take them or activate them is good though. Dynamic events are a lot more than just renamed quests. They give each zone a feeling of continuous action. Games that just have quests usually don’t have lively zones at all. The world feels stagnant. Dynamic events and meta events make everything feel animated. Why am I defending dynamic events though? Guild wars has practically the opposite problem with the mission system. All gw2 wants to do is living story, living world. Which is great but that just means it lacking in quest chains. Quests that are like “Go kill 5 of these mobs” are not what im talking about. Quest chains that are "1. Go fetch farmer joe from his house he hasnt paid taxes in a month, 2. Farmer joe is gone, investigate the village, 3. A local said a specific gang came to farmer joes house in the middle of the night, 4. Go to local gangs hide out and interrogate them, 5.(let yur imagination run wild with what farmer joe had to do with this stupid local gang, bandits, whatever.)

tolunart.2095:

The encounter you describe is guarding a skill point. Usually in these cases there’s a Veteran (local enemy or monster) guarding the “commune with nature” skill point, but this time it’s an NPC, an evil shaman. I don’t really get why this is such a problem to you. It’s just a bit of flavor that makes it more than “kill this griffon so I can get to the skill point.”

Now, sometimes during development plans change, and things get cut from the game. Perhaps instead of a skill point it was going to be a jumping puzzle or something, with the evil shaman at the end. But they couldn’t get something right or had a different idea for the area and they adapted what they had into the skill point and its guardian.

In real life, things don’t always happen the way you want them to.

I kind of see what you are saying now. Something like Side-Personal Stories.

Where you have your normal Personal Story, but each area also has several Side Stories that follow the same mechanic as the Personal Story. Is that what you mean?

Edit: reading your post above made me think of how missions work in The Secret World. Would love stuff like that in GW2.

Quest chain in normal MMO:

• kill X enemies w/ some reason, usually they’re the enemy, or they’re bothering us
• back to NPC
• hmm, we need information about their leader; get their battle plans
• collect x battle plans in the same spot
• back to NPC
• their leader is Zurg! Kill Zurg!
• go to where Zurg is; someone just killed him — I can see his corpse
• wait for Zurg to reappear
• 3 opposite faction players come in, on their side’s version of the Kill Zurg! quest; they spam AoE in the spawn point and tag Zurg when he reappears
• back to waiting

While GW2 DE’s are not all wonderful, this is what they are competing with. The only real difference in the newest addition to the fantasy MO genre is that all of the Kill Zurg quests are instanced, so no one can tag the spawn.

While RPG-style stuff is arguably more fun, more immersive and more dynamic, MMO’s are up against several issues in creating that kind of experience.

1. People expect to be entertained over months or years; that requires an awful lot of content
2. There are two ways to impart the information necessary to the style of quest you’re talking about. (1) orally (cut scenes, or just NPC’s talking); and (2) by providing stuff for players to read. The problem is that many players will skip the cut-scenes, pay no attention to what NPC’s are saying and won’t read the text info. Thus, for some percentage of your player base, the effort needed to think these things through and program them is wasted time and money.
3. The issue about temporary versus permanent content; player A plays the content. Player B comes along after the event is over. Think about how well received the one-time Karka event was. Think about how many complaints were made about the temporary nature of recent content.

Some of the GW2 DE’s come a lot closer to what you are talking about than the one you mentioned. Some don’t.

OK, sorry for the rant here, but I just need to do that once in a while.

I hate it so much when someone is all “The manifesto is a lie”. I mean let’s be honest, a lot of that video was PR and marketing buzzwords designed to build hype and make you salivate over the game, because money, so I don’t really think you can take that video and be all “YES, THIS IS WHAT WAS PROMISED, 100% OF THAT HAS TO BE TRUE”.
I know this comparison doesn’t fit a 100% (and most comparisons on the internet are crappy anyways), but when I see someone complaining about the manifesto lieing to him it feels like a guy complaining that his McDonalds burger isn’t all shiny and perfect and has fresh water drops on the salad. I mean, referring to the manifesto doesn’t invalidate someone’s point, but most of the time I’ve seen it in combination with alarmist BS that’s as much a rant as my post here, but with more exclamation marks.

By the way, OP, please don’t take this is as a knock on you as a person – I’m not addressing you specifically with this post, it’s just something I noticed a lot and I just wanted to get that out of my head. I actually agree with that point you’re making, the event system doesn’t exactly feel really ‘epic’ to me. Engaging, yes – the events add a lot of personality to the zones and races, there are a lot of memorable ones and they tell some interesting stories. But apart from maybe seeing major bosses like the Shadow Behemoth for the first time, I’d be hard pressed to find something really amazing, probably because of the practically non-existent use of the camera. You just sort of stand there while the bosses do or say something, then you beat them up and maybe the friendly NPCs of that event do something different and say some more.

There is something everyone should know before they judge the manifesto.

Ree was talking about the personal story…Colin was talking about dynamic events.

This clarification was released in a post on Guild Wars 2 guru shortly after the manifesto was released due to the confusion editing caused.

No one said every single dynamic event in the entire world was going to chain. Some would chain. That’s it. This was made clear over and over again.

By the way, a manifesto, by definition, is a statement of intent. That’s all it is. It’s not a guarantee of service.

/thread

Agree with the OP, nothing in this game fits the manifesto…

I do love that Bridge DE in Lornars pass, Bridge destroyed, bridge fixed, Bridge destroyed, bridge fixed, Bridge destroyed, bridge fixed, Bridge destroyed, bridge fixed… yeah fixing it makes a world of difference in the game..i just run around it now…

So perhaps im being misleading by saying quest chain or what not, because the interpretation of what “quest chains” really mean completely depend on the other MMO’s youve played. A better way express this is to say we need more personal story like content. The only thing we’ve had thats even remotely close to personal story like content, since release, were the 2 f&f missions. I saw a lot of potential in those missions, because I felt hmm perhaps I can really gain an in depth understanding of F&F and rox and braham. Sadly each mission only served as an intro to the characters, and they were the only missions for rox and braham we got.

However this may lead us to another idea Anet is working on. That is the content promised by treasure hunts. Right now, we only know their purpose is to serve an alternative to obtaining a precursor. I don’t exactly know how it would work either. However! I think it would be suitable to design the treasure hunts so that they are specifically unique to lore of the weapon you are obtaining. I don’t know if it will include personal story like instances, or just have us farming the world again in search of supplies to craft these elusive weapons. I think what would be very terrible is if Anet just has us crafting the weapons, and farming for the crafting materials.

Anyway, in the future what would be nice is if we have more treasure hunts, but for vanity items. There is something sort of like that now, and its at the end of some dynamic events there is a vendor that appears. They should have more of this. A lot more. Except with more difficult content. Dynamic events can only be so difficult which is why they may need to use a different flavor of content. Thats why I suggest mission chains that are lore intrinsic and reward a relevant vanity item at the end.

So people are saying its ok for companies to lie and trick consumers with false advertising and we shouldn’t complain, sure i guess they can lie, but then i wont give them anymore money, which seems fair to me..

we don’t need quests, we need questitems that spawn events from an eventchain.

example: you escort a traveler through queensdale. Once you’re there the npc asks you to visit his mother at home, to see if everything is allright. He gives you the key to his mothers house. — you go to the house whenever you like — Once there (+the key in your inventory) the key spawns a new event where everyone around can participate. The door breaks open and the mother runs out of the house. Behind her a few thieves. Kill the thieves before they kill the woman. If they kill her, the event failed. If she survives the attack the woman gives you a letter for her son. — visit the son again — if he is there + you have his letter, he reads the letter. There’s money in it to open a shop. He now has become a vendor and sells unique items.

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

we don’t need quests, we need questitems that spawn events from an eventchain.

example: you escort a traveler through queensdale. Once you’re there the npc asks you to visit his mother at home, to see if everything is allright. He gives you the key to his mothers house. — you go to the house whenever you like — Once there (+the key in your inventory) the key spawns a new event where everyone around can participate. The door breaks open and the mother runs out of the house. Behind her a few thieves. Kill the thieves before they kill the woman. If they kill her, the event failed. If she survives the attack the woman gives you a letter for her son. — visit the son again — if he is there + you have his letter, he reads the letter. There’s money in it to open a shop. He now has become a vendor and sells unique items.

That sounds fun, but it also sounds like a 1 time only thing. There is an event in gendarran fields where u escort this guy, at the end a vendor pops up, gives you some ice weapon. It makes sense for that event to be repeatable, because of how often the specific npc must scout the area. I like yur idea tho. How bout I give you an example of what this game needs more of.

Rift Sootclaw, Lamprey Grottoes, Iron Marches. You find this warclan in a hole like environment with a bunch of charr tanks. You fix his tank for him. There are like 5 operations you must complete to fix it. By operation I mean “change tire, release crankshaft, check engine”. 5 stages of dialogue with options you must complete. You finish it, and hes like hey welcome to the warband and gives you a bandana. Thats cool and its practically the only one of its kind ive seen in game. But why? Its so random because of how lonely its content type is. There needs to be more.

I love this one, I’m proud owner of such a bandana too

It doesn’t have to be a one-time thing, logic would say that the mother is dead when you failed the event before, but hell… it’s a game. I don’t care about logic. It isn’t logical that the shatterer lands each time in the same area either, but it’s (theoretically) fun either way.

I think what’s missing is more of long connected event chains. The connection – the questitem – would be essential for this. Something which can spawn events manually by having it with you or having done something before. This way you could have really long and epic chains which can be done in more than one playsession. Events could also spawn if certain prerequesites had been accomplished. I’ve seen a youtube clip where an assassin spawns on a road in queensdale, but only if you’ve done a certain human-storyline. Everyone can participate in fighting this champion. It’s a pretty neat story-telling feature and I wonder why it’s implemented so rarely.

Woodenpotatoes stated that events feel hollow to him. Well, something that happens without follow-up events which expand the story must seem hollow. The way it is now, without questitem which spawn follow up events, events take place only in a limited area and have little to no character development.

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

I love this one, I’m proud owner of such a bandana too

It doesn’t have to be a one-time thing, logic would say that the mother is dead when you failed the event before, but hell… it’s a game. I don’t care about logic. It isn’t logical that the shatterer lands each time in the same area either, but it’s (theoretically) fun either way.

Yeah, every hour or so Rooba’s golem gets blown up by some fire elemental… after so many months you’d think she’d get tired of rebuilding it, or make it fireproof or something…

That’s just the way MMOs work… they’re moving in the direction of the single player game with the Living World but still, you have to allow for people logging in and out at all hours. Singular events get problematic.

Dante.1508:

So people are saying its ok for companies to lie and trick consumers with false advertising and we shouldn’t complain, sure i guess they can lie, but then i wont give them anymore money, which seems fair to me..

They didn’t lie, you just don’t know how to read. First of all a manifesto, is, as already stated, not an advertisement or a guarantee. It’s a statement of intent. This is how they envision a game.

Logically, if you have an event and it happens once and never again, you’d need an almost infinite number of events. No one can program that. Do you know how I know this is the case? Because Anet said this before launch.

In fact, Anet said a LOT of stuff before launch, including explaining EXACTLY how dynamic events would work with specific examples. They also said before launch, many times and quite clearly, that there would also be simple one of events, and bigger, longer more complex events. All of which is true.

This isn’t hidden or secret information. There are tons of videos of this stuff from conferences and conventions where this stuff was gone over and repeated again and again.

So if you watched one single video and checked out absolutely nothing else, and didn’t know the defintion of manifesto, and didn’t realize that things change in MMOs all the time, then I guess you might have been misled by watching the manifesto.

Other people, however, were aware that there was plenty of very specific information given about just what dynamic events would and wouldn’t be.

For some of the stuff in the trailer yes. I mean they made it sound like everything from gw1 would be in here. Obv a lot of stuff isn’t, but its understandable and is expected all in due time. Even though Anet may mean everything in Manifesto a different way, watching the trailer and playing the games makes it appear as a lie. The trailer is to blame for a lot. Either way DE’s undeniably need to be balanced with more personal instance, or small quest(Riff Sootclaw) like content. I don’t expect it all now though. These are just suggestions, very strong suggestions.

SkylightMoon.1980:

For some of the stuff in the trailer yes. I mean they made it sound like everything from gw1 would be in here. Obv a lot of stuff isn’t, but its understandable and is expected all in due time. Even though Anet may mean everything in Manifesto a different way, watching the trailer and playing the games makes it appear as a lie. The trailer is to blame for a lot. Either way DE’s undeniably need to be balanced with more personal instance, or small quest(Riff Sootclaw) like content. I don’t expect it all now though. These are just suggestions, very strong suggestions.

That is the one single line in the manifesto that certainly was misleading “It takes everything you love from Guild Wars 1 and puts it into a persistent world”.

There are two reasons why this line didn’t personally affect me, but yes, it’s misleading.

The logic of it is that if you’re talking to a million people, and everyone loves different things, well, maybe there’s something you love that I hate, and how would he know? How can they take everything I love, when they don’t know what it is I love. Some people loved not having a marketplace…but I wasn’t one of them.

More importantly, this was a manifesto that appeared years before the game released. A statement of intent. There were TONS of other interviews, videos, blog posts, articles in MMO sites, articles in magazines…there was a tremendous amount of information out there, more than for any other game I’ve ever seen.

And things were pretty much spelled out. I don’t know many people who went into Guild Wars 2 without knowing that the weapon system was, or the skills were tied to weapons. Indeed, long before launch there was an article on the website about it.

In all the advertisements over the entire time the game was being promoted, I can think of two things that were said that Anet “went back on”. One was that dyes would be account bound and one was that there would be no vertical progression.

But the manifesto said neither of those things. And there was so much information out there, really good accurate information, I can’t really believe anyone is complaining that Anet lied to them.

Manifesto is a lie. true true words!

I would like for DEVS to go back and watch all of the manifesto videos/ text they sent out to sell us this game and I wanna see them explain themselves a bit. Example LEGENDARY items? sooo is that working as it should be cause that has got to me the most anti epic end game item I’ve ran into on any game. Not to mention there desire to make content more grindy over time and DR us on everything? can we even play anymore without having to farm something…

Diamandis.7483:

Manifesto is a lie. true true words!

I would like for DEVS to go back and watch all of the manifesto videos/ text they sent out to sell us this game and I wanna see them explain themselves a bit. Example LEGENDARY items? sooo is that working as it should be cause that has got to me the most anti epic end game item I’ve ran into on any game. Not to mention there desire to make content more grindy over time and DR us on everything? can we even play anymore without having to farm something…

What line specifically do you call a lie. I just watched the manifesto and with the exception of the “everything you love about Guild Wars 1 line”, I can’t find a single lie in the manifesto. Not one.

Vayne.8563:

That is the one single line in the manifesto that certainly was misleading “It takes everything you love from Guild Wars 1 and puts it into a persistent world”.

There is actually more than that.

morrolan.9608:

Vayne.8563:

That is the one single line in the manifesto that certainly was misleading “It takes everything you love from Guild Wars 1 and puts it into a persistent world”.

There is actually more than that.

Okay prove it. Show me. There are two things commonly quoted as being lies in the manfesto. One of them is the Colin line about “We don’t want people to grind in Guild Wars 2”. Taken out of the rest of the paragraph, it sure sounds like a lie. But then when you fill in the rest of the paragraph it’s very clear what he’s talking about and it has NOTHING to do with gear grind or farming. It has only to do with grinding levels.

As for the other thing, it’s the back and forth being Colin and Ree about dynamic events and personal stories. Colin is talking about DEs and Ree is talking about personal stories. Anet issued a clarification on the manifesto just about immediately after releasing it, based on the confusion caused by editing.

There are no other “lies” in the manifesto, besides that single marketing line in the beginning.

I agree some parts of the game has let me down in regards to the promises within the manifesto.

Although i still hope on the premise of potential. Quite frankly DE’s are the best type of questing/levelling content iv ever player in a MMO currently.
This in itself is a massive achievement. HOWEVER let me make it clear I dont condone marketing hype unless one day, we get a full map of meta chains that are effected by player controlled variables rather than timers, warring factions that are literally battling for control and boss events that create massive implications for the whole map.

I mean, it is what you once promised anet!?!?

Parlourbeatflex.5970:

I agree some parts of the game has let me down in regards to the promises within the manifesto.

Although i still hope on the premise of potential. Quite frankly DE’s are the best type of questing/levelling content iv ever player in a MMO currently.
This in itself is a massive achievement. HOWEVER let me make it clear I dont condone marketing hype unless one day, we get a full map of meta chains that are effected by player controlled variables rather than timers, warring factions that are literally battling for control and boss events that create massive implications for the whole map.

I mean, it is what you once promised anet!?!?

This all comes down to what you want out of lvling/questing/etc. If you want something personal, dynamic events don’t do that so well. They interactive, spontaneous, and occasionally fast-paced. Meta-Events are great and something that can certainly be expanded upon. A while back Anet added some new DE’s to zones throughout the world, only a few though. This was wayyyyyy back in october, november? I cant remember, 1 of them. But you could tell they were trying to initiate an evolution in the world. Thats one way they can do it outside of the living story. Perhaps for the living story, there could be one main theme occuring, say the big chapter after southsun cove. But while that is going on, there are smaller, medium sized living stories occuring. Perhaps 2 other zones. I actually could see Anet doing this. Multiple Living stories. Its just a matter of whether or not they have the manpower.

Op: the kind of guest chains you want is what I play single player games for, it is also why I stopped playing traditional MMO’s because I got tired of being stuck into a little box (instanced) with a bunch of people I didn’t know.
I hate instanced content- even more in this glorious open world because every time I have to go into an instance it keeps me from that world.

Some DE’s are fairly complicated, especially in the higher level maps.
I would love to see even more complicated DE’s and the things you describe can fit into this system very well.
I am pretty sure as the game develops more and matures we will see some of this.
The Living Story is already going along those lines but in a different way.
Just please keep the end of solo story lines out of 5 man instances.

As for the manifesto?
I bought the game back last May because of the manifesto, I haven’t been disappointed and I got exactly what I was expecting.

Parlourbeatflex.5970:

I agree some parts of the game has let me down in regards to the promises within the manifesto.

Although i still hope on the premise of potential. Quite frankly DE’s are the best type of questing/levelling content iv ever player in a MMO currently.
This in itself is a massive achievement. HOWEVER let me make it clear I dont condone marketing hype unless one day, we get a full map of meta chains that are effected by player controlled variables rather than timers, warring factions that are literally battling for control and boss events that create massive implications for the whole map.

I mean, it is what you once promised anet!?!?

That’s all three zones of Orr. They come massively close to what you’re saying.

Morrigan.2809:

Op: the kind of guest chains you want is what I play single player games for, it is also why I stopped playing traditional MMO’s because I got tired of being stuck into a little box (instanced) with a bunch of people I didn’t know.
I hate instanced content- even more in this glorious open world because every time I have to go into an instance it keeps me from that world.

Some DE’s are fairly complicated, especially in the higher level maps.
I would love to see even more complicated DE’s and the things you describe can fit into this system very well.
I am pretty sure as the game develops more and matures we will see some of this.
The Living Story is already going along those lines but in a different way.
Just please keep the end of solo story lines out of 5 man instances.

As for the manifesto?
I bought the game back last May because of the manifesto, I haven’t been disappointed and I got exactly what I was expecting.

Thats not true. This game is an MMO and it has only one area of content likethat, its personal story. Plus these don’t need to be single player quests. They can easily be multiplayer, like F&F missions, or personal story. So no. Im suggesting they put more content like that in the game, along with DE’s, to create a balance. Ok so not everything in the Manifesto trailer is true, we’ve established that. Perhaps it will be at one point, but not now. Maybe yur standards are dif, I dno. But its clear to nearly everyone that gw2 is not yet at the point where Manifesto promises.

Well as many of us have realised, gw2 did not really deliver an innovative experience at all, but only disguised it just enough so that we wouldn’t realize it till we bought it. To make it worst, the quality of the story greatly reduces as we deeper into the game…. Having said that, i’m still playing this game just because at least FOR NOW, they’re not forcing vertical progression on players yet and I don’t have to constantly be farming for new armor that I don’t need..

So pretty much, the day they put vertical progression (this includes level progression) in this game with some tier 2 ascended armor, is the day Anet has lost me as a customer completely.

Lafiel.9372:

Well as many of us have realised, gw2 did not really deliver an innovative experience at all, but only disguised it just enough so that we wouldn’t realize it till we bought it. To make it worst, the quality of the story greatly reduces as we deeper into the game…. Having said that, i’m still playing this game just because at least FOR NOW, they’re not forcing vertical progression on players yet and I don’t have to constantly be farming for new armor that I don’t need..

So pretty much, the day they put vertical progression (this includes level progression) in this game with some tier 2 ascended armor, is the day Anet has lost me as a customer completely.

Anet is certainly innovative in some ways. Their DE system is, their living story is. The combat is in my opinion, the best ive seen in an mmo. Its incredibly intuitive, and I think I could give a lvl 80 to my friend whose never played gw2 but other mmo’s, and he’d pick it up within 15 minutes. Its also fast-paced and less technical than other mmo’s. Plus the visuals.

SkylightMoon.1980:

Morrigan.2809:

Op: the kind of guest chains you want is what I play single player games for, it is also why I stopped playing traditional MMO’s because I got tired of being stuck into a little box (instanced) with a bunch of people I didn’t know.
I hate instanced content- even more in this glorious open world because every time I have to go into an instance it keeps me from that world.

Some DE’s are fairly complicated, especially in the higher level maps.
I would love to see even more complicated DE’s and the things you describe can fit into this system very well.
I am pretty sure as the game develops more and matures we will see some of this.
The Living Story is already going along those lines but in a different way.
Just please keep the end of solo story lines out of 5 man instances.

As for the manifesto?
I bought the game back last May because of the manifesto, I haven’t been disappointed and I got exactly what I was expecting.

Thats not true. This game is an MMO and it has only one area of content likethat, its personal story. Plus these don’t need to be single player quests. They can easily be multiplayer, like F&F missions, or personal story. So no. Im suggesting they put more content like that in the game, along with DE’s, to create a balance. Ok so not everything in the Manifesto trailer is true, we’ve established that. Perhaps it will be at one point, but not now. Maybe yur standards are dif, I dno. But its clear to nearly everyone that gw2 is not yet at the point where Manifesto promises.

I think you misread my post.
I am not against instanced personal stories, I am against being forced to do instances with a bunch of random people (5 man parties)
I have no problem with having 5 man instances, I do have a problem if they do not scale so they are soloable – like the Flame and Frost stories did right up until MF dungeon- which meant that I could not complete a story I was following for months.

I understand what you are saying about more complicated guest chains- I am just not sure if making them instanced is such a good idea.
Someone up-thread had a great Idea for a player activated DE quest chain.
I would much rather see them build on something like that tbh.

The thing is the more instanced content you add, the more players get removed from the open world map and makes it emptier and less alive.
I think they need to build on the open world model and add more depth with the tools they already have in place.

Vayne.8563:

Okay prove it. Show me.

“It doesn’t suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill;”

“In addition to great storyline and important player choices, another hallmark of great RPGs is that they create a world that feels real and alive. Let’s say a village is being terrorized by bandits. You don’t want to find out about that because there’s a villager standing there motionless with an exclamation mark over his head who says when you click on him, “Help, we’re being terrorized by bandits.” You want to find out like you would in GW2: because the bandits are attacking, chasing villagers through the streets, slaying them and setting their houses on fire. You can stand up for the villagers, or you can watch their village burn to the ground and then deal with the consequences. We’ve worked hard to create a living, dynamic world for you, where there’s always something new to do.”

“Of course GW2 has great support for parties, but they just don’t feel as necessary as they do in other MMOs,”

“Finally, since combat is such a core part of the gameplay of any MMO, we’ve put a lot of emphasis into rethinking combat. So much of traditional MMO combat is rote and repetitive. You execute the same strategy over and over again, just augmented over time with better and better gear. After a while it starts to feel like you’re playing a spreadsheet. Combat needs to be about making creative choices, and it needs to feel immediate, active, and visceral. So we’ve put a huge focus on strengthening our combat, giving the player limitless choices, and providing the thrill and joy of being in combat.

The original GW featured a CCG-like skill system that allowed each player to discover unique combos and new strategies. Theoretically every Elementalist in the game could approach combat with a different strategy. In fact players found thousands of interesting strategies over the years, most of which our designers never anticipated, which is always the sign of a flexible system.

GW2 shares this flexible skill system. "

“Then we add environmental weapons to mix up combat even more. In the original GW you’d sometimes find a catapult or trebuchet that you could take over and fire at enemies. That’s one type of environmental weapon, and in GW2 we have dozens more. If a Stone Elemental throws a boulder at you, pick it up and throw it back. Or as an Elementalist, use that boulder to create a meteor storm”

“It all gets back to our basic design philosophy. Our games aren’t about preparing to have fun, or about grinding for a future fun reward. Our games are designed to be fun from moment to moment.”

morrolan.9608:

Vayne.8563:

Okay prove it. Show me.

“It doesn’t suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill;”

“In addition to great storyline and important player choices, another hallmark of great RPGs is that they create a world that feels real and alive. Let’s say a village is being terrorized by bandits. You don’t want to find out about that because there’s a villager standing there motionless with an exclamation mark over his head who says when you click on him, “Help, we’re being terrorized by bandits.” You want to find out like you would in GW2: because the bandits are attacking, chasing villagers through the streets, slaying them and setting their houses on fire. You can stand up for the villagers, or you can watch their village burn to the ground and then deal with the consequences. We’ve worked hard to create a living, dynamic world for you, where there’s always something new to do.”

“Of course GW2 has great support for parties, but they just don’t feel as necessary as they do in other MMOs,”

“Finally, since combat is such a core part of the gameplay of any MMO, we’ve put a lot of emphasis into rethinking combat. So much of traditional MMO combat is rote and repetitive. You execute the same strategy over and over again, just augmented over time with better and better gear. After a while it starts to feel like you’re playing a spreadsheet. Combat needs to be about making creative choices, and it needs to feel immediate, active, and visceral. So we’ve put a huge focus on strengthening our combat, giving the player limitless choices, and providing the thrill and joy of being in combat.

The original GW featured a CCG-like skill system that allowed each player to discover unique combos and new strategies. Theoretically every Elementalist in the game could approach combat with a different strategy. In fact players found thousands of interesting strategies over the years, most of which our designers never anticipated, which is always the sign of a flexible system.

GW2 shares this flexible skill system. "

“Then we add environmental weapons to mix up combat even more. In the original GW you’d sometimes find a catapult or trebuchet that you could take over and fire at enemies. That’s one type of environmental weapon, and in GW2 we have dozens more. If a Stone Elemental throws a boulder at you, pick it up and throw it back. Or as an Elementalist, use that boulder to create a meteor storm”

“It all gets back to our basic design philosophy. Our games aren’t about preparing to have fun, or about grinding for a future fun reward. Our games are designed to be fun from moment to moment.”

Not one of these quotes is from the manifesto.

Edit: And I disagree with most of your assessements about this stuff being true or not anyway.

Vayne.8563:

Not one of these quotes is from the manifesto.

Edit: And I disagree with most of your assessements about this stuff being true or not anyway.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Guild_Wars_2_Design_Manifesto

tolunart.2095:

Nick.6972:

The moment you realize DEs aren’t dynamic at all.

You mean, the first time I read about them?

Ambitious, but impossible to implement in an MMO with the current technology.

Yeah this. To be perfectly honest the way Dynamic Events are now is fine for me. I like it way better than questing systems in other MMOs. Truly dynamic events that are ever-changing is just flat out beyond what any non-ending game is capable of at the moment. It would take too much programming and more than anything it would be insurmountably finite. The game simply could not create permutation after permutation of progressing events while players carve through them at the pace they typically do.

morrolan.9608:

Vayne.8563:

Not one of these quotes is from the manifesto.

Edit: And I disagree with most of your assessements about this stuff being true or not anyway.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Guild_Wars_2_Design_Manifesto

Ah, okay…most people refer to the video, the MMO Manifesto, which came out way before this. I probably read this when it came out and don’t remember seeing anyone talk about it, but I’ll go through what you said and respond individually to the points I disagree with. There were a few.

Simple solution;

The timers on dynamic events should simply be increased dramatically, while, at the same time the number of different events should also be dramatically increased.

Players will see the same events far less often, but will see many more different events and therefore the maps will feel more alive and dynamic—and you don’t necessarily need these huge yellow circles splashed all over the map every time, for every event. Have some subtle, hidden, secret ones even.

Right now, I can go to every map, and every event that appears I can think to myself, “Oh yeah, that one. Been there, done that. Many times.”

This has to stop.

The devs should have devoted one guy to add events to every map little by little over the past year. Sprinkling them all over the salt and pepper.

Archmortal.1027:

Yeah this. To be perfectly honest the way Dynamic Events are now is fine for me. I like it way better than questing systems in other MMOs. Truly dynamic events that are ever-changing is just flat out beyond what any non-ending game is capable of at the moment. It would take too much programming and more than anything it would be insurmountably finite. The game simply could not create permutation after permutation of progressing events while players carve through them at the pace they typically do.

Dynamics events across the whole game world instead of quests are definitely the way to go for future mmos.

Morrigan.2809:

SkylightMoon.1980:

Morrigan.2809:

Op: the kind of guest chains you want is what I play single player games for, it is also why I stopped playing traditional MMO’s because I got tired of being stuck into a little box (instanced) with a bunch of people I didn’t know.
I hate instanced content- even more in this glorious open world because every time I have to go into an instance it keeps me from that world.

Some DE’s are fairly complicated, especially in the higher level maps.
I would love to see even more complicated DE’s and the things you describe can fit into this system very well.
I am pretty sure as the game develops more and matures we will see some of this.
The Living Story is already going along those lines but in a different way.
Just please keep the end of solo story lines out of 5 man instances.

As for the manifesto?
I bought the game back last May because of the manifesto, I haven’t been disappointed and I got exactly what I was expecting.

Thats not true. This game is an MMO and it has only one area of content likethat, its personal story. Plus these don’t need to be single player quests. They can easily be multiplayer, like F&F missions, or personal story. So no. Im suggesting they put more content like that in the game, along with DE’s, to create a balance. Ok so not everything in the Manifesto trailer is true, we’ve established that. Perhaps it will be at one point, but not now. Maybe yur standards are dif, I dno. But its clear to nearly everyone that gw2 is not yet at the point where Manifesto promises.

I think you misread my post.
I am not against instanced personal stories, I am against being forced to do instances with a bunch of random people (5 man parties)
I have no problem with having 5 man instances, I do have a problem if they do not scale so they are soloable – like the Flame and Frost stories did right up until MF dungeon- which meant that I could not complete a story I was following for months.

I understand what you are saying about more complicated guest chains- I am just not sure if making them instanced is such a good idea.
Someone up-thread had a great Idea for a player activated DE quest chain.
I would much rather see them build on something like that tbh.

The thing is the more instanced content you add, the more players get removed from the open world map and makes it emptier and less alive.
I think they need to build on the open world model and add more depth with the tools they already have in place.

Thats kinda sad you feel forced. Is it really that big a deal? I agree with your comment about instanced content, but the thing is, there is barely any instanced content in this game, at least in the sense im talknig about. Yes yes there are dungeons and personal story. Some of these don’t even have to be instanced. I mentioned earlier an example where one can obtain town clothes by a short, fun activity in iron marches where you repair a bike. It was cool and I dont know if you would classify it as a quest or what, it certainly wasnt a DE. But whatever you call it, it was fun, and youd be surprised how those little sprinkles of content throughout zones make a difference. WP spoke about this perfectly in one of his vids.

@morrolan

“It doesn’t suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill;”

<bold>And it doesn’t. There’s no treadmill here. Even if you think Ascended gear is hard to get (and it’s really not), there’s still no treadmill. A treadmill implies you have to keep at it all the time. You’ve clearly never played World of Warcraft or Rift. In order for you to be forced to grind, you first need to be locked out of content. Considering I can do all content (except for high level fractals) in rares, I can categorically state this is true. No gear TREADMILL exists in Guild Wars 2.</bold>

“In addition to great storyline and important player choices, another hallmark of great RPGs is that they create a world that feels real and alive. Let’s say a village is being terrorized by bandits. You don’t want to find out about that because there’s a villager standing there motionless with an exclamation mark over his head who says when you click on him, “Help, we’re being terrorized by bandits.” You want to find out like you would in GW2: because the bandits are attacking, chasing villagers through the streets, slaying them and setting their houses on fire. You can stand up for the villagers, or you can watch their village burn to the ground and then deal with the consequences. We’ve worked hard to create a living, dynamic world for you, where there’s always something new to do.”

<bold>This is 100% true. I’ve watched things invade and take over a village. You know the pipes outside of Divinities reach. When the bandits attack them, if you don’t fight them off, they destroy the pipes. You see it happening. I’m not sure what you think here is a lie.</bold>

“Of course GW2 has great support for parties, but they just don’t feel as necessary as they do in other MMOs,”

<bold>And they’re not necessary for 90% of the game, because you can play with people not in your party. So this statement is true. </bold>

“Finally, since combat is such a core part of the gameplay of any MMO, we’ve put a lot of emphasis into rethinking combat. So much of traditional MMO combat is rote and repetitive. You execute the same strategy over and over again, just augmented over time with better and better gear. After a while it starts to feel like you’re playing a spreadsheet. Combat needs to be about making creative choices, and it needs to feel immediate, active, and visceral. So we’ve put a huge focus on strengthening our combat, giving the player limitless choices, and providing the thrill and joy of being in combat.

<bold>Yep, this is true. Combat is definitely more visceral here than in just about any other MMO. And in every other MMO, I have a rotation, in Guild Wars 2, I don’t. This is not a lie.</bold>

The original GW featured a CCG-like skill system that allowed each player to discover unique combos and new strategies. Theoretically every Elementalist in the game could approach combat with a different strategy. In fact players found thousands of interesting strategies over the years, most of which our designers never anticipated, which is always the sign of a flexible system.
GW2 shares this flexible skill system. "

<bold>This isn’t a lie…the system is flexible. It’s also not finished. There’s work to go on it, certainly but there’s no way to construe this as a lie, not even using the loosest sense of the word.</bold>

“Then we add environmental weapons to mix up combat even more. In the original GW you’d sometimes find a catapult or trebuchet that you could take over and fire at enemies. That’s one type of environmental weapon, and in GW2 we have dozens more. If a Stone Elemental throws a boulder at you, pick it up and throw it back. Or as an Elementalist, use that boulder to create a meteor storm”

<bold>Again, this isn’t a lie. There are tons of environmental weapons in the game. You haven’t found any?</bold>

“It all gets back to our basic design philosophy. Our games aren’t about preparing to have fun, or about grinding for a future fun reward. Our games are designed to be fun from moment to moment.”

<bold>And this isn’t a lie. I’m having fun. Lots of other people seem to have having fun.

If there have been changes to the game (and there has), that doesn’t mean there’s any lying involved. There’s nothing here that isn’t actually true, it’s just your perception of it is different from that of other people.

Some people think this game has the best combat of any MMO…I’m one of them. If you don’t like that, it doesn’t make this statement untrue.

Anyway, lying implies intent. MMOs change ALL THE TIME. And nothing here is particularly different from what exists in game now. </bold>

SkylightMoon.1980:

Morrigan.2809:

SkylightMoon.1980:

Morrigan.2809:

Op: the kind of guest chains you want is what I play single player games for, it is also why I stopped playing traditional MMO’s because I got tired of being stuck into a little box (instanced) with a bunch of people I didn’t know.
I hate instanced content- even more in this glorious open world because every time I have to go into an instance it keeps me from that world.

Some DE’s are fairly complicated, especially in the higher level maps.
I would love to see even more complicated DE’s and the things you describe can fit into this system very well.
I am pretty sure as the game develops more and matures we will see some of this.
The Living Story is already going along those lines but in a different way.
Just please keep the end of solo story lines out of 5 man instances.

As for the manifesto?
I bought the game back last May because of the manifesto, I haven’t been disappointed and I got exactly what I was expecting.

Thats not true. This game is an MMO and it has only one area of content likethat, its personal story. Plus these don’t need to be single player quests. They can easily be multiplayer, like F&F missions, or personal story. So no. Im suggesting they put more content like that in the game, along with DE’s, to create a balance. Ok so not everything in the Manifesto trailer is true, we’ve established that. Perhaps it will be at one point, but not now. Maybe yur standards are dif, I dno. But its clear to nearly everyone that gw2 is not yet at the point where Manifesto promises.

I think you misread my post.
I am not against instanced personal stories, I am against being forced to do instances with a bunch of random people (5 man parties)
I have no problem with having 5 man instances, I do have a problem if they do not scale so they are soloable – like the Flame and Frost stories did right up until MF dungeon- which meant that I could not complete a story I was following for months.

I understand what you are saying about more complicated guest chains- I am just not sure if making them instanced is such a good idea.
Someone up-thread had a great Idea for a player activated DE quest chain.
I would much rather see them build on something like that tbh.

The thing is the more instanced content you add, the more players get removed from the open world map and makes it emptier and less alive.
I think they need to build on the open world model and add more depth with the tools they already have in place.

Thats kinda sad you feel forced. Is it really that big a deal? I agree with your comment about instanced content, but the thing is, there is barely any instanced content in this game, at least in the sense im talknig about. Yes yes there are dungeons and personal story. Some of these don’t even have to be instanced. I mentioned earlier an example where one can obtain town clothes by a short, fun activity in iron marches where you repair a bike. It was cool and I dont know if you would classify it as a quest or what, it certainly wasnt a DE. But whatever you call it, it was fun, and youd be surprised how those little sprinkles of content throughout zones make a difference. WP spoke about this perfectly in one of his vids.

Ahhh I just recently found out about that quest for the bandana but I did it because it very slightly resembles dreads
Those kind of things are great and it does make a zone awesome- if you are suggesting that they make more of those and even extend them a bit then- heck yes I’m all aboard.
This is the kind of thing that makes this game great and more would be awesome- give some cool little skins or fun items at the end and I bet many people will want to play this kind of content
We also have the mini dungeons in the open world those are great too because they are fun and sometimes unexpected addition at the end of a chain

The thing you talk about is not a DE, it’s a skill point.