Guild Wars 2

The most fundamental element of a RPG, weapon dmg, has been replaced by some bogus generic “weapon strength” factor.
Doesn’t this bother anyone else?

I really thought I’d see some x-xx dmg starter weapons, and xx-xxx in end game tier.
Before I knew anything about gw2, I even thought they are going to have a awesome dynamic dmg system, with different type of dmg, slashing, cutting, bashing, dull, piercing, and different magic elemental types.
The hype was that big…

But… no, they didn’t even give us basic physical dmg.
Just dmg calculated by some “weapon strength”.

Couldn’t they just keep it working and mainstream?
It simply doesn’t feel right at all, doesn’t feel like anything.

Arenanet thinks it’s too hip for classic RPG standards, feeling bit rebellious, hmm?

ElemenZ.5486:

The most fundamental element of a RPG, weapon dmg, has been replaced by some bogus generic “weapon strength” factor.
Doesn’t this bother anyone else?

I really thought I’d see some x-xx dmg starter weapons, and xx-xxx in end game tier.
Before I knew anything about gw2, I even thought they are going to have a awesome dynamic dmg system, with different type of dmg, slashing, cutting, bashing, dull, piercing, and different magic elemental types.
The hype was that big…

But… no, they didn’t even give us basic physical dmg.
Just dmg calculated by some “weapon strength”.

Couldn’t they just keep it working and mainstream?
It simply doesn’t feel right at all, doesn’t feel like anything.

Arenanet thinks it’s too hip for classic RPG standards, feeling bit rebellious, hmm?

I can’t think of any MMORPG that has damage type or elemental damage type on weapons.

Elemental damage is generally done thru being a practitioner of that elemental school of magic.

To a degree ANet does buck the damage type trend in that the conditions your weapons apply seem to be flavored around weapon type, but it is dynamic (based around using the skill) as opposed to passive.

Introducing this is tough as you would have to include damage type immunities/vulnerabilities to mobs which would just become problematic.

ElemenZ.5486:

The most fundamental element of a RPG, weapon dmg, has been replaced by some bogus generic “weapon strength” factor.
Doesn’t this bother anyone else?

I really thought I’d see some x-xx dmg starter weapons, and xx-xxx in end game tier.
Before I knew anything about gw2, I even thought they are going to have a awesome dynamic dmg system, with different type of dmg, slashing, cutting, bashing, dull, piercing, and different magic elemental types.
The hype was that big…

But… no, they didn’t even give us basic physical dmg.
Just dmg calculated by some “weapon strength”.

Couldn’t they just keep it working and mainstream?
It simply doesn’t feel right at all, doesn’t feel like anything.

Arenanet thinks it’s too hip for classic RPG standards, feeling bit rebellious, hmm?

Why does the terminology matter? What’s the difference between “basic physical dmg” and “weapon strength”?

Ordika.9513:

ElemenZ.5486:

The most fundamental element of a RPG, weapon dmg, has been replaced by some bogus generic “weapon strength” factor.
Doesn’t this bother anyone else?

I really thought I’d see some x-xx dmg starter weapons, and xx-xxx in end game tier.
Before I knew anything about gw2, I even thought they are going to have a awesome dynamic dmg system, with different type of dmg, slashing, cutting, bashing, dull, piercing, and different magic elemental types.
The hype was that big…

But… no, they didn’t even give us basic physical dmg.
Just dmg calculated by some “weapon strength”.

Couldn’t they just keep it working and mainstream?
It simply doesn’t feel right at all, doesn’t feel like anything.

Arenanet thinks it’s too hip for classic RPG standards, feeling bit rebellious, hmm?

I can’t think of any MMORPG that has damage type or elemental damage type on weapons.

Elemental damage is generally done thru being a practitioner of that elemental school of magic.

To a degree ANet does buck the damage type trend in that the conditions your weapons apply seem to be flavored around weapon type, but it is dynamic (based around using the skill) as opposed to passive.

Introducing this is tough as you would have to include damage type immunities/vulnerabilities to mobs which would just become problematic.

ahem DDO? LOTRO? pretty much any Turbine game?

I for one am glad they got rid of damage types. Those systems always seem to just screw over magic users

So the devs are hipsters because you don’t like the terminology they use? Your weapon damage in nearly every RPG is always modified to give you the numbers you see on your screen when you hit by a huge number of variables. They could easily just call their power ratings for weapons damage instead and still modify using all the other variables to get the same numbers. I’m not sure why calling it power or damage bothers you so much or think it’s somehow the most fundamental component of an RPG.

My problem isn’t terminology, it’s that weapon speed is missing.
My choices are narrowed, dumbed down.

There are no slow 2h weaps with specific attack speed and dmg stats.
Every weapon is just “meh whatever-dmg-no attack speed”.
Tha’ts a pretty heavy downside to a game that’s been hyped so much in the RPG MMO category.

And to Ordika:

It wouldn’t be impossible to work out a system with various types of different physical weapon dmg/resistances.

I’m sure many players would love such a “realistic” system where you need to, for example, behead a zombie to prevent it from getting up again, or bash a skeleton into pieces with a giant 2h hammer while arrows have almost no effect on hit.

Different types of default magic and physical resistances for armors:

metal conducts electricity, making mail/plate users take more lightning dmg, leather armor and boots ground electricity buffing your resistances to lightning.
Thick fur inside any armor can buff your cold resistances.
Chain mail has a high dmg reduction vs slashing swords and axes, but is vulnerable vs piercing attacks from spears, arrows, daggers.

This could be used to also add even more depth to the gameplay with having stats like stamina and carrying capacity based on strength and vigor,
reducing your movmeent speed punishment less for using heavy armor the higher those stats are.

Like a full heavy plate warrior would have extremely high resistances to all types of physical dmg, slashing, bashing, piercing, but also a high penalty on movement speed and agility (chance to dodge etc).

Things like these all add a ton of depth, no doubt, but I’m afraid we won’t see those features in any big title soon, since every game seems to be tailored for more and more dumbed down masses who like fast, simplified arcade games, instead of deep, realistic, dynamic RPG games.

Quintal.6594:

I for one am glad they got rid of damage types. Those systems always seem to just screw over magic users

Frankly I just don’t miss having to stack up X Resistance and then buy multiple suits just to go listen to nasally cursing for a couple hours. While I do kind of wish I could put up a ward to protect myself against burns (and a couple mobs’ poison lasts way too long,) I think this is refreshing.

Edit: I don’t think micromanaging adjectives adds any depth. It’s just another needless descriptor to build up, or to build up against. Anyone is capable of thinking these things up but I think this game prioritized combat maneuvers and strategies over gear focusing. It’s unfortunate if you really do like stat focusing but for a lot of us it’s an overdue relief.

>deep, realistic, dynamic RPG games.

Because people have hp in real life and swords can be quantified by the amount of damage they can deal.

You’re not going to find anything remotely like the depth you want in any video game. It’d be better that you just find a group of friends, some pencils, miniatures, and 3.5 edition dnd, though even then you’re more likely to find people ad hoccing rules and having fun than spending 5 hours on a single “realistic” encounter.

So…you’re saying you’d rather play D&D? Because, you know, you can just do grab some dice and do that.

Stuff like that in MMOs, unfortunately, tend to create gear checks (regarding damage types) and often turn things numbers games (regarding weapon speed and such).

First of all, there are slow two-handed weapons with specific speeds. They’re called hammers. Hammer autoattacks are significantly slower than with other weapons, and daggers, a light one-handed weapon, typically deliver many more attacks in a short period of time (commonly by having attack chains include multiple strikes). But these things are determined by class and skills, not by the weapon statistics themselves. Pretty much the same thing, but in a different location and not explicitly detailed.

And as for different weapon damage types and resistances, the issue with having this in an MMO is that enemy placement tends to be less than organic. The boss will always be in the boss room, for example. If one boss had high fire resistance, or was susceptible to slashing damage, it would give players a numerical advantage to use weapons that used other elements/slashing weapons, and this would be something that could be resolved before combat began. Against more difficult enemies, where every point counts, this could create a situation where players wouldn’t want anyone not geared properly.

Also, when things like this are involved, trends become apparent and certain qualities are revealed as advantageous. In Skyrim, which does have stuff like damage types and resistances, use of frost magic isn’t as helpful for doing damage as fire, because in an colder northern setting like that one, full of frost monsters and such, a lot of things tend to have frost resistance/immunity. So clearly it’s a better choice to use fire more regularly.

It’s not bad stuff, but in MMOs it tends to be more limiting than interesting or complex. And the complexity it does offer creates complications and unseen restrictions.

It doesn’t present a problem if you start with the concept from design….it’s a huge problem to try and revisit it later. Especially in a game where the idea is to play your way. Having mobs be resistant to certain damage types forces someone to play to the encounter (equipment wise). This is especially problematic as attack skills are according to weapon and not static to class (non magic that is).

How dare ArenaNet, while making a game designed around bringing new ideas to the table, bring a new idea to the table. How dare they.

“The boss will always be in the boss room, for example.”

That’s one of things about the MMO status quo that should be redesigned.
If I had my say, I’d do a really dynamic boss who could be roaming aroung the entire dungeon, if at all.

And with him a set of adds with different types of resistances and immunities, making it vital for the group to come up with a solution of their own, improvise.

Either match the roles, fire vs ice, melee vs melee, etc., or use a dynamic environment to beat “the boss”, which wouldn’t even necessarily mean having to kill him, but maybe trap or subdue, disarm, blind, there could be endless different ways to solve a problem. Also, mobs and npcs would have A.I. out of this world, adding unexpectable “realism” and requiring real problem solving skills and a “logical approach” from players, and not just gazing at stats, carrying different sets of gear with them that they could simply swap based on what type of enemies they face.

But I guess I’m just dreaming decades ahead of my time just seeing the way MMOs will be one day.

Ordika.9513:

ElemenZ.5486:

The most fundamental element of a RPG, weapon dmg, has been replaced by some bogus generic “weapon strength” factor.
Doesn’t this bother anyone else?

I really thought I’d see some x-xx dmg starter weapons, and xx-xxx in end game tier.
Before I knew anything about gw2, I even thought they are going to have a awesome dynamic dmg system, with different type of dmg, slashing, cutting, bashing, dull, piercing, and different magic elemental types.
The hype was that big…

But… no, they didn’t even give us basic physical dmg.
Just dmg calculated by some “weapon strength”.

Couldn’t they just keep it working and mainstream?
It simply doesn’t feel right at all, doesn’t feel like anything.

Arenanet thinks it’s too hip for classic RPG standards, feeling bit rebellious, hmm?

I can’t think of any MMORPG that has damage type or elemental damage type on weapons.

Elemental damage is generally done thru being a practitioner of that elemental school of magic.

To a degree ANet does buck the damage type trend in that the conditions your weapons apply seem to be flavored around weapon type, but it is dynamic (based around using the skill) as opposed to passive.

Introducing this is tough as you would have to include damage type immunities/vulnerabilities to mobs which would just become problematic.

Guild Wars 1 had elemental damage types on weapons, and mobs had varying armor vs certain damage types. Destroyers took next to no damage from fire elementalists and firey modified weapons for instance.

They streamlined it down in GW2, everything does just damage basically, with fire or lightning damage adding visual effects to dying enemies.

Ordika.9513:

ElemenZ.5486:

The most fundamental element of a RPG, weapon dmg, has been replaced by some bogus generic “weapon strength” factor.
Doesn’t this bother anyone else?

I really thought I’d see some x-xx dmg starter weapons, and xx-xxx in end game tier.
Before I knew anything about gw2, I even thought they are going to have a awesome dynamic dmg system, with different type of dmg, slashing, cutting, bashing, dull, piercing, and different magic elemental types.
The hype was that big…

But… no, they didn’t even give us basic physical dmg.
Just dmg calculated by some “weapon strength”.

Couldn’t they just keep it working and mainstream?
It simply doesn’t feel right at all, doesn’t feel like anything.

Arenanet thinks it’s too hip for classic RPG standards, feeling bit rebellious, hmm?

I can’t think of any MMORPG that has damage type or elemental damage type on weapons.

Elemental damage is generally done thru being a practitioner of that elemental school of magic.

To a degree ANet does buck the damage type trend in that the conditions your weapons apply seem to be flavored around weapon type, but it is dynamic (based around using the skill) as opposed to passive.

Introducing this is tough as you would have to include damage type immunities/vulnerabilities to mobs which would just become problematic.

Anarchy Online had many damage types for example. But it also had a 220/30/70 lvl long grind :p

ElemenZ.5486:

My problem isn’t terminology, it’s that weapon speed is missing.
My choices are narrowed, dumbed down.

I do have some sympathy with your point of view. I like complicated systems that you have to think hard about. But don’t despair! GW2 is far from a dumbed-down game.

It’s a bit like the guitar, easy to pick up and make a roughly musical sound on, hard to master. It’s designed so that you can start off just blindly button mashing, and you’ll do ok, but the more you think about it and experiment with it, the better results you’ll get.

i.e. GW2 does have a lot of complexity in its build system, it’s just that that complexity isn’t immediately apparent and doesn’t lie in the area of damage types, etc.

It lies rather in the way your weapons, skills, Traits and combo fields/finishers interact.

It’s actually deliciously complex when you start getting into it. There are lots and lots of things to try out and experiment with, with any given profession, many possible combinations of factors. And very little of the stats, conditions, boons, etc., are “wasted”. Pretty much every weapon, skill and trait has definite effects that can synergise with many other factors and in various situations. You just have to find them by pondering tooltips and experimenting.

ElemenZ.5486:

“The boss will always be in the boss room, for example.”

That’s one of things about the MMO status quo that should be redesigned.
If I had my say, I’d do a really dynamic boss who could be roaming aroung the entire dungeon, if at all.

And with him a set of adds with different types of resistances and immunities, making it vital for the group to come up with a solution of their own, improvise.

Either match the roles, fire vs ice, melee vs melee, etc., or use a dynamic environment to beat “the boss”, which wouldn’t even necessarily mean having to kill him, but maybe trap or subdue, disarm, blind, there could be endless different ways to solve a problem. Also, mobs and npcs would have A.I. out of this world, adding unexpectable “realism” and requiring real problem solving skills and a “logical approach” from players, and not just gazing at stats, carrying different sets of gear with them that they could simply swap based on what type of enemies they face.

But I guess I’m just dreaming decades ahead of my time just seeing the way MMOs will be one day.

Wait, so first you say ArenaNet is trying too hard to keep things modern and should stick to classical RPG formulas, and now you’re saying that MMOs aren’t doing enough to change things?

And this new point is now addressing purely technical challenges. Well, that, and unreliable encounter design that would probably prove to be more frustrating and ragequit-inducing than fun or dynamic. Not only would it probably more-often-than-anyone-could-enjoy catch groups with their pants down, but it would make every encounter besides the roaming boss be more nerve-wracking because you never know when you might accidentally pull the boss. Overpulling is enough of a concern without the boss being part of that mix.

Modern games have a hard enough time making enemies that can walk in a straight line and attack a moving player. And even in Guild Wars 2, you can see how “smarter” mobs are more unfair than anything else. Having five Risen Quaggan keeping you in a stunlock by taking turns to hit you for two seconds each isn’t fun, but they’re being smart and not overlapping disables, right?

The scenario you’re suggesting of a roaming boss with minions with different damage types and resistances would only create the need to have everyone in a group geared to take on specific targets so that the numerical advantage can be maintained. One person with fire would take the fire-vulnerable enemies, the slashing-resistant player would take on the sword enemies, etc., and it still becomes a gear-check. Even against normal mobs, players of an MMO would quickly manage to detail higher-difficulty zones with most preferred damage/resistance types, carry spare gear sets for different areas, and gear for each challenge accordingly, because as nice as dealing with a challenge with skill is (which, by the way, doesn’t need resistances and damage types to happen), in MMOs a numerical advantage is usually the most significant factor in determining the outcome of a fight.

And personally, I think the future of games in general, MMOs included, will probably move in the direction of “simple tools, complex interactions.” By creating a minimal but effective stable of functions and abilities the players can utilize, but having the way those things interact be dynamic and compelling, you can create an accessible and rewarding gaming experience while not placing a huge technical demand on the developers. Of course, the future is unknowable, but I think it’s the likelier outcome.

weapon speed is in the game, ie daggers attack faster than swords which attack faster than greatswords, just 1 sword doesn’t swing faster than another. I think the weapon system is fine though I kind of wish elemental damage had more impact.

Devildoc.6721:

weapon speed is in the game, ie daggers attack faster than swords which attack faster than greatswords, just 1 sword doesn’t swing faster than another. I think the weapon system is fine though I kind of wish elemental damage had more impact.

Yeah, I could totally go for that. During the beta testing phase ArenaNet kept on talking about how they wanted to make it really feel like you were hitting things. Get on an Elementalist and cast Lightning Touch and tell me if that feels like anything.

Ordika.9513:

I can’t think of any MMORPG that has damage type or elemental damage type on weapons.

Elemental damage is generally done thru being a practitioner of that elemental school of magic.

To a degree ANet does buck the damage type trend in that the conditions your weapons apply seem to be flavored around weapon type, but it is dynamic (based around using the skill) as opposed to passive.

Introducing this is tough as you would have to include damage type immunities/vulnerabilities to mobs which would just become problematic.

GW1 had that.
Sword, axes and scythes did slashing damage, bow and spears did piercing damage, dagger did either slashing or piercing, Hammer did blunt.

Staves and wands had elemental damage. Fire, Cold, Lightning, Earth, Dark, Holy and Chaos.

Attacking with any weapons that wasn’t a wand or staff did physical damage. You could add upgrade to weapon to make them elemental except for chaos which was exclusive to wands and staves.

You could also make armor that defended against direct physical damage or physical damage type (slashing, piercing or blunt) or any type of elements except chaos.

It wasn’t problematic in GW1. It’s actually one of the thing that made it great.

currently using fire magic for example doesn’t do fire damage. It only do damage. You can even kill destroyer with fire. You only cannot make them burn. Because burning is a condition so they can block it, but fire isn’t a damage type, it’s just the same damage type you can do with a sword, with a different visual.

The lack of attack speed stat does kind of bother me. It’s just less variation between the same weapon classes

My hunch is it’s the WvW and sPvP balancing that makes them want a simplistic/elegant system. That’s why there’s only 8 professions, race doesn’t do anything relevant, and there’s relatively few abilities to tune.

Loic.4367:

Devildoc.6721:

weapon speed is in the game, ie daggers attack faster than swords which attack faster than greatswords, just 1 sword doesn’t swing faster than another. I think the weapon system is fine though I kind of wish elemental damage had more impact.

Yeah, I could totally go for that. During the beta testing phase ArenaNet kept on talking about how they wanted to make it really feel like you were hitting things. Get on an Elementalist and cast Lightning Touch and tell me if that feels like anything.

well what I mean is like, water magic/damage against a fire elemental, fire damage against an ice elemental, lightning damage against an aquatic enemy, etc.

DirtyHoudini.2917:

The lack of attack speed stat does kind of bother me. It’s just less variation between the same weapon classes

They want to push equality of all level 80 weapons of the same type and same rareity, which I think is good, then you can choose based on what skin you like better.