Guild Wars 2

Let me ask a question. How many hard core MMO players faithfully used a DPS meter in other MMO’s to help gear and stat your characters?

I know I use DPS meters in games that have them all the time. Its a great way to fine tune your build to put out the absolute best DPS and it makes you feel good when you see an increase after putting in hours of farming for that one upgrade you have been working towards for some time.

Even if the DPS meter was for your eyes only, thats fine. I know I have had fun with other players on seeing who can out DPS who but thats just for fun.

A DPS meter that all can see also helps with those players that feel they can go into an instance and just auto attack instead of learning good rotations. Players don’t want people see them being a carry and not giving their all.

This is all why I would like to see DPS meters of some sort built into GW2…

after seeing the toxicity of many in raids, And I raid a lot…. I’m gonna say no, it’d just be used to discriminate people.

DragonXtwoX.3591:

How many hard core MMO players faithfully used a DPS meter in other MMO’s to help gear and stat your characters?

I think the point is GW2 has never been supposed to be a game for hardcore MMO players.

Never used one. Never found a big enough need for one to do any content in any previous game(s) I played.

Having one shouldn’t make doing anything easier. People that join for one of the raid wings should know what they need, the people I’ve gone with that don’t know always ask, or we tell them what they’ll need to do.

I can generally tell if our damage is enough after the first few attempts in the raid encounter or if changes need to be made.

Absolutely not, gw2 doesnt need dps meter toxicity.

It would, god, send me right out of this game.

Sorry, no go (for me).

there is a dps meter for gw2 that has been said to not be illegal as it doesnt read the code gw2specs

DragonXtwoX.3591:

Let me ask a question. How many hard core MMO players faithfully used a DPS meter in other MMO’s to help gear and stat your characters?

I know I use DPS meters in games that have them all the time. Its a great way to fine tune your build to put out the absolute best DPS and it makes you feel good when you see an increase after putting in hours of farming for that one upgrade you have been working towards for some time.

Even if the DPS meter was for your eyes only, thats fine. I know I have had fun with other players on seeing who can out DPS who but thats just for fun.

A DPS meter that all can see also helps with those players that feel they can go into an instance and just auto attack instead of learning good rotations. Players don’t want people see them being a carry and not giving their all.

This is all why I would like to see DPS meters of some sort built into GW2…

personal meter is fine, although it should also be tracing your boons , fields, healing, dmg taken. The problem with shared meters is well known, toxic and used by 1 dimensional idiots who do not have the wit to look beyond being ‘no 1 dps’

I would love to see a DPS meter that perhaps is only available in the PvP lobby or a guild training ground. It can be a valuable tool when trying to test out builds or learn rotations, etc.

I also agree that it tends to be a toxic thing and I don’t want to see that in GW2. If it can be implemented in a way it can only be used in ‘safe’ zones instead of ‘live’ raids, etc. I would be happy. Be even happier if all the things mentioned above could be tracked too – boons, healing, etc.

You’ll probably never see one in-game. Saving the combat log however is something the API dev was looking in to, it’s just not a priority.

The combat log in general also needs improvements.

DragonXtwoX.3591:

Let me ask a question. How many hard core MMO players faithfully used a DPS meter in other MMO’s to help gear and stat your characters?

I know I use DPS meters in games that have them all the time. Its a great way to fine tune your build to put out the absolute best DPS and it makes you feel good when you see an increase after putting in hours of farming for that one upgrade you have been working towards for some time.

Even if the DPS meter was for your eyes only, thats fine. I know I have had fun with other players on seeing who can out DPS who but thats just for fun.

A DPS meter that all can see also helps with those players that feel they can go into an instance and just auto attack instead of learning good rotations. Players don’t want people see them being a carry and not giving their all.

This is all why I would like to see DPS meters of some sort built into GW2…

So you want a DPS meter to show how bad you are doing on an off day? Yeah, they have never been a good idea, every time I saw one being used in WoW, it was to tell people they where not doing enough work. And this is in a pug! If you need a fps meter, you need to get better “friends” to do raids with.

This has been debated many times in these very forums, with the few that want the meters tending to devolve into “so I can kick out the ones who aren’t doing dps” and the many that don’t want them pointing out all the things they won’t measure that matter in GW2 combat and the likelihood that players who can see other players’ dps will get nasty about it.

For personal dps checking there is an API program that just reads your combat log (you have to make it the visible tab, make the chat box as big as possible, and toggle off most of the combat channel boxes) and quickly does the math based on what it reads. I think it is called jaxnX … at least I have an icon for that on my desktop from when I was doing a raid-ready test on myself so I think that’s the one. The version I used was cleared as not doing anything to occasion a ban. It certainly didn’t do anything immediate to give me a play advantage while I attacked Risen Giants for the test, simply gave me feedback on how various weapon use combos affected dps. Dps only, not support, not condition clearing, not cc. I haven’t used it in months and can’t vouch for any current iteration being ok to use.

Anyway, this seems another merge-ready topic given how often it comes up and how often it contains exactly the same pro/con arguments.

Singe-target DPS meters would be useful I think. Anymore more would only hinder success.

I wouldn’t mind a set of target golems in the PvP lobby and Lions Arch that reported back what your DPS and Spike damage are, similar to GW1. You could work on your build easily enough there, w/o incurring the chat idiocy that live raid stats would.

Really? Another one of these? We’re gonna run out of horses at this point

As far as build crafting goes, a DPS meter benefits “casuals” far more than “hardcore”. As it is now, you are required to be hardcore if you wish to create your own build with confidence of it being effective and efficient, because it requires a great deal of testing and math. A casual is not going to bring out stop watches, and hunt for unattended champions and attempt to test the offense/defense of their build, nor are they going to devote a lot of time to analyzing the damage log, or math out their stats and tool tips (which then requires testing to make sure that the damage logs or tool tips aren’t lying).

If we could simple open up and glance at a DPS meter after a fight, a lot of this busywork required to become confident with any buildcrafting could be greatly simplified, and thus made far more accessible to “casuals”.

The assumptions that people who do not understand the point of a DPS meter will misuse it are not without merit, however why would you want to play with over aggressive idiots anyways? This may have been more of an issue back when dungeon farming was en vogue, however with the simplistic dungeon rewards being nerffed and the new raid instances being more in focus, there’s far, FAR less emphasis on straight up DPS (especially with Salvation Pass, with it’s even lower requirement for party DPS). Sure there will still be people who substitute aggression and ego in place of teamwork and knowhow, but that’s just the nature of interacting with other people.

The one to Rule.2593:

after seeing the toxicity of many in raids, And I raid a lot…. I’m gonna say no, it’d just be used to discriminate people.

Or you know it also might show them who has to IMPROVE. Instead of hours of wipes because your DPS is bad now you would be able to see who is really lacking and help them to improve. And if they aren’t getting better then they deserver to get kicked.

And yes, maybe showing the DPS of each player is a little bit too much. But at least give us a personal dps meter. How can that be too bad?

Mouse.3608:

I wouldn’t mind a set of target golems in the PvP lobby and Lions Arch that reported back what your DPS and Spike damage are, similar to GW1. You could work on your build easily enough there, w/o incurring the chat idiocy that live raid stats would.

You would need live stats (from PvE armors) to get accurate results though alongside live sigils. Currently in PvP lobby that isn’t available.

Now, I’m for a personal DPS meter.

Originally I was against them because they were superfluous. Playing all of my classes, I can generally feel when one is lagging behind another, whether it be in burst or in sustained combat. But now that enrage timers are a thing, they aren’t superfluous anymore. We’re actually being hard timed to see how much DPS we can output.

Mouse.3608:

I wouldn’t mind a set of target golems in the PvP lobby and Lions Arch that reported back what your DPS and Spike damage are, similar to GW1. You could work on your build easily enough there, w/o incurring the chat idiocy that live raid stats would.

Controlled test environments under ideal conditions like this will not give accurate results, because these are not the actual conditions you’ll have in gameplay. For example: under these sort of ideal conditions, Mesmer had been calculated to have one of the highest DPS rates of any class for quite some time due to 100% uptime of their phantasms… when in reality everyone knew that Mesmer was only taken for utility, never for personal DPS.

Donari.5237:

This has been debated many times in these very forums, with the few that want the meters tending to devolve into “so I can kick out the ones who aren’t doing dps” and the many that don’t want them pointing out all the things they won’t measure that matter in GW2 combat and the likelihood that players who can see other players’ dps will get nasty about it.

What a gross misrepresentation of the entire argument(s) to try to justify your views.

Personally I’d like to see the option of having a well-integrated DPS meter (read: not the one that reads the chat box).

I for one was surprised that GW2 still hasn’t implemented any form of DPS meter. There is a third-party alternative though, as mentioned earlier in the thread. GW2Specs has a working DPS meter, although it is confusing and hard to get working. (I couldn’t get it working and I’m an IT guy) Plus you can’t watch chat, it has to be on the damage chat with special settings.

That being said, it would be really nice to have an official DPS meter in-game. We don’t need it to track the group’s DPS, though it’s also nice to know if someone is not carrying their weight. (People already seem to hate on others far more than they should, so I understand the reluctance to do so)

The main benefit of a DPS meter to me is not so I can tell everyone how good I am, or how much better I am doing than them. I want a DPS meter so I can improve my skill rotations and practice different styles and techniques. There really is no guaranteed way to know if a different build is better if you can’t tell how much damage you’re doing.

I’ve tried the one that attempts to read the chatbox. It is glitchy and I’ve only managed to get it to work right once.

Fermi.2409:

What a gross misrepresentation of the entire argument(s) to try to justify your views.

Personally I’d like to see the option of having a well-integrated DPS meter (read: not the one that reads the chat box).

Did you miss this part of the OP:

DragonXtwoX.3591:

A DPS meter that all can see also helps with those players that feel they can go into an instance and just auto attack instead of learning good rotations. Players don’t want people see them being a carry and not giving their all.

Let me start by saying, if you think personal DPS is king in GW2; that’s the first mistake. Boons/clears/positioning/ resing all come into play, and a DPS meter probably isn’t going to catch all this as well.

As far as a group dps meter. I’m curious other then to exclude or scrutinize others play, for what purpose would you need a meter that showed more then your own dps?

Why not a HPS meter too? Or a mortality line calculator? Or a boon up-time gauge?

But even all that really won’t determine who is actually helpful in a fight when all is said and done.

Miku.6297:

As far as a group dps meter. I’m curious other then to exclude or scrutinize others play, for what purpose would you need a meter that showed more then your own dps?

Builds like Venom Thief need this. Any build that uses mechanics that shares effect, applies effects, or alter teammates. I do understand that it is a double-edged sword; one that may not worth drawing.

While useful for an individual to see how well their rotation is with their current stats, in less than friendly groups it will be used to exclude and ridicule.

DGraves.3720:

Builds like Venom Thief need this. Any build that uses mechanics that shares effect, applies effects, or alter teammates. I do understand that it is a double-edged sword; one that may not worth drawing.

If the damage meter attributed the venom damage to the thief using venom share, I don’t see why it would be necessary to have a group dps meter. If it did not attribute the DPS to the thief, Then it would be the same as group boons etc which would most likely just be lumped into someones personal dps. (which is why I said in my first post, personal DPS is not the best measurment of contribution in GW2).

Miku.6297:

DGraves.3720:

Builds like Venom Thief need this. Any build that uses mechanics that shares effect, applies effects, or alter teammates. I do understand that it is a double-edged sword; one that may not worth drawing.

If the damage meter attributed the venom damage to the thief using venom share, I don’t see why it would be necessary to have a group dps meter. If it did not attribute the DPS to the thief, Then it would be the same as group boons etc which would most likely just be lumped into someones personal dps. (which is why I said in my first post, personal DPS is not the best measurment of contribution in GW2).

You would need to adequately identify the source. The problem with current DPS calculations is that often they attributed (falsely) the source to their own stats in group play; for instance a group DPS value should be very different from personal DPS by over double so when someone says “I do 20k dps” they actually aren’t doing anywhere near that; it is the buffs of others that they do not produce that are rendering those numbers.

So when a V-thief hits X dps it is required to know whether it is the thief itself or other PCs who are in the battle and how they are contributing.

I’m still confused as to how that shows a need for group displayed DPS rather then just personal DPS.

If the dps and the source is adequately identified, why would the thief need to see the other players DPS as well?

A personal DPS tracker would be pretty nice you could use it to gauge how you are doing DPS wise.

I just don’t see alot of uses outside of exclusion and ridicule for group DPS meters. Unless by group you mean a meter that displays the entire groups output, not each individual persons.

Miku.6297:

I’m still confused as to how that shows a need for group displayed DPS rather then just personal DPS.

If the dps and the source is adequately identified, why would the thief need to see the other players DPS as well?

Thief is a bad example, a far better example would be Mesmer, with their applications of Quickness, Alacrity, and reapplications of Might and Fury. Different party compositions and different builds from those party members will influence how much extra damage a Mesmer is responsible through their party buffs.

Again though, this is still just a simple tool, as it would not take other utility into account (such as defensive boons allowing party members to focus more on their tasks)… but that’s just part of the fun of games like this.

@Surbrus: right, I get that. Assuming DPS and source was being adequately identified (meaning DPS would be being attributed to the mesmer in this case) why would that player need to see the other party members DPS? My initial question isn’t about understanding how the DPS/boons work (I understand that part fine), it’s why would someone need to see other peoples DPS.

To clarify; If the DPS isn’t being being sourced/distributed adequately (what you see your self doing is what you see in the meter), or if it is. (gains from boons/buffs in DPS count towards the boon providers DPS). Are the a large amount of uses outside of the negative ones mentioned?

Neox.3497:

The one to Rule.2593:

after seeing the toxicity of many in raids, And I raid a lot…. I’m gonna say no, it’d just be used to discriminate people.

Or you know it also might show them who has to IMPROVE. Instead of hours of wipes because your DPS is bad now you would be able to see who is really lacking and help them to improve. And if they aren’t getting better then they deserver to get kicked.

And yes, maybe showing the DPS of each player is a little bit too much. But at least give us a personal dps meter. How can that be too bad?

that’s a very black and white statement and a perfect example of why they aren’t needed, dps in gw2 isn’t everything, theres so much more to team comps than that. If you spent hours wiping it’s likely the group is just inexperienced and you’d do better finding a more experienced group anyway.

I see what you mean now. However I don’t really see the need for the degree of privacy that masking party member’s DPS would give.

The benefit in this example to the Mesmer seeing party member’s DPS, would be to see how much of an improvement that those buffs give. This could help for deciding on party composition, or even raid subgroup organization. At the very least, it is more information and gives players an opportunity to become better and more knowledgeable about the game.

The only downside seems to be that:

Surbrus.6942:

Sure there will still be people who substitute aggression and ego in place of teamwork and knowhow, but that’s just the nature of interacting with other people.

In which case, again, why do you want to play with those people in the first place?

Miku.6297:

I’m still confused as to how that shows a need for group displayed DPS rather then just personal DPS.

If the dps and the source is adequately identified, why would the thief need to see the other players DPS as well?

A personal DPS tracker would be pretty nice you could use it to gauge how you are doing DPS wise.

I just don’t see alot of uses outside of exclusion and ridicule for group DPS meters. Unless by group you mean a meter that displays the entire groups output, not each individual persons.

Prevention of distortion. Venom share uses the thieves’ base stats for most of the venoms so knowing how the applications are being doled out gives knowledge of how much damage is actually being done by the strikes of the thieves. It prevents both under and over reporting effectiveness. This is necessary for skills where the bonus isn’t flat (might/fury/quickness/alacrity/etc.) and/or dependent on the skill owner.

The reason for this is because comparing Team DPS and Personal DPS values expresses effectiveness of tactics in different situations or viability of options in specialized cases. In essence it helps you do more than just “stack 25 might” and other obvious things.

Surbrus.6942:

I see what you mean now. However I don’t really see the need for the degree of privacy that masking party member’s DPS would give.

The degree of privacy is to prevent the normal exclusions and ridicule that is inherent with group DPS displays. While I agree it could give players a chance to learn more, more often then not the “advice” that is given is frequently not given or received in a positive light.

@DGraves: How many players would actually be effected positively by this? The distortion you are referring to would be very prevalent in organized/meta build groups. However a group DPS meter would have also have a large effect on pugs, do you think the effects of the DPS meter would be more positive than negative in a pug or group that is not optimized?

Serophous.9085:

Really? Another one of these? We’re gonna run out of horses at this point

Wrong thread — this is about DPS meters, not mounts.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Serophous.9085:

Really? Another one of these? We’re gonna run out of horses at this point

Wrong thread — this is about DPS meters, not mounts.

But what if it’s about Distance per second meters?

Miku.6297:

@DGraves: How many players would actually be effected positively by this? The distortion you are referring to would be very prevalent in organized/meta build groups. However a group DPS meter would have also have a large effect on pugs, do you think the effects of the DPS meter would be more positive than negative in a pug or group that is not optimized?

Tools are tools. There are those who will break your hand with a hammer and those who will build your house with the same thing. I honestly don’t think PUGs care as much as people think. It’s not the numbers that dictate player hate but rumors of classes and effectiveness and best builds. It would give rise to players actually being able to prove that maybe, just maybe, it isn’t popularity but genuine ingenuity that makes a build viable.

Discrimination is currently based on rumor rather than numerical fact.

Discrimination is based on human negative behaviour. As for meters we have seen first hand for many years the behaviours invoked through the use of DPS meters (shared)

- Forced build (omg look how good his build is, use it or be benched)
- dps kitten
- bullying
- Peer pressure that forces people to put their ‘performance’ over other behaviour like buffing others.
- forgetting its ok not to be ‘optimal’ in a game and to have fun.
- raid leaders with trying to control fights by simplying and controlling rather than letting fights evolve organically (especially in GW2 where freeform fights and multiple roles are viable)

I

vesica tempestas.1563:

Discrimination is based on human negative behaviour. As for meters we have seen first hand for many years the behaviours invoked through the use of DPS meters (shared)

- Forced build (omg look how good his build is, use it or be benched)
- dps kitten
- bullying
- Peer pressure that forces people to put their ‘performance’ over other behaviour like buffing others.
- forgetting its ok not to be ‘optimal’ in a game and to have fun.
- raid leaders with trying to control fights by simplying and controlling rather than letting fights evolve organically (especially in GW2 where freeform fights and multiple roles are viable)

I

Yet all of this happens regardless. It’s actually worse because popular builds now often existed before someone popular tried it. Nothing will change if this is the case. Those who care will still care, those who believe rumors will still believe rumors, and those who couldn’t care less about what Metabattle comes up with won’t even think twice about it so long as they win.

If you fear greater ostracizing behavior, don’t, because there’s nothing worse than being told “your build is stupid” then seeing it come up as “meta” 4 months later because some popular player decided to give it a go. If nothing else it’s at least a proof of defense as well for builds; a lot of ideas that were great got shoved to the side over imaginary superiority and “math” which was either done completely wrong or ignored the game’s actual mechanics and real player behavior.

In this game discrimination is based solely on reputation and rumor. Otherwise no one cares about your weird Settler’s Necromancer idea so long as they win. That said I am personally against group DPS meters for a totally different reason for the most part; they are only convenient in certain cases with certain specific types of skills that are far and few between in this game.

DGraves.3720:

Discrimination is currently based on rumor rather than numerical fact.

Discrimination based on either isn’t a positive outcome. A DPS meter just makes it that much easier to single out another player and exclude them based on the numbers shown. Most people probably don’t join runs and say “Hi guys I’m running an un-optimal build”. They enter do the run and everyone goes their own way.

I have to admit I smiled at the “tools are tools”. Not sure if you meant it in all ways possible it just seems so fitting for the subject at hand xD.

I agree Pugs currently don’t feel as picky, but that’s partial because as you said, there is no numeric data given to the pugs to use as a basis for discrimination. Put a group displayed DPS meter into place, and I almost guarantee it will be used to exclude and ridicule other players.

Miku.6297:

Did you miss this part of the OP:

DragonXtwoX.3591:

A DPS meter that all can see also helps with those players that feel they can go into an instance and just auto attack instead of learning good rotations. Players don’t want people see them being a carry and not giving their all.

Sure, that’s one use. There’s plenty of others.

Miku.6297:

Let me start by saying, if you think personal DPS is king in GW2; that’s the first mistake. Boons/clears/positioning/ resing all come into play, and a DPS meter probably isn’t going to catch all this as well.

Personal DPS is always important; you want to maximize that as much as you can while still fulfilling your other roles. When did I ever say it was king?

That being said, an ideal meter would be able to track things such as boons shared, HP healed/players ressed, etc, like many games have (or at least they have a couple meters to fill any role).

Miku.6297:

As far as a group dps meter. I’m curious other then to exclude or scrutinize others play, for what purpose would you need a meter that showed more then your own dps?

It allows team comparisons between different phases of fights, comparisons between different classes/players performing the same role/playing the same class, and, of course, can be used to see who’s doing the highest DPS overall. There are plenty of reasons to have a group DPS meter.

Miku.6297:

The degree of privacy is to prevent the normal exclusions and ridicule that is inherent with group DPS displays.

You keep saying this like it’s going to happen left and right, but the only people who are going to use it to kick people asap are the kind of people that have idiotic group requirements these days anyways. You’re making it sound like a widespread issue when it’s far from the case.

Fermi.2409:

Sure, that’s one use. There’s plenty of others.

There may be some others, but the OP clearly had this as one of his reasons.

Fermi.2409:

Personal DPS is always important; you want to maximize that as much as you can while still fulfilling your other roles. When did I ever say it was king?

That being said, an ideal meter would be able to track things such as boons shared, HP healed/players ressed, etc, like many games have (or at least they have a couple meters to fill any role).

Never said you did, I was pointing out that in general, the extreme focus on DPS vs other things that meters tend to bring may miss out on many other aspects of play.

That’s true there are are games that have meters that can track a variety of different things. How ever tracking everything and tracking meaningful actions aren’t always the same.

Fermi.2409:

It allows team comparisons between different phases of fights, comparisons between different classes/players performing the same role/playing the same class, and, of course, can be used to see who’s doing the highest DPS overall. There are plenty of reasons to have a group DPS meter.

In a game about inclusion, why is there a need for competing with other players in the same role and same class? It’s not a competition, the highest numbers doesn’t always mean the best player.

Fermi.2409:

You keep saying this like it’s going to happen left and right, but the only people who are going to use it to kick people asap are the kind of people that have idiotic group requirements these days anyways. You’re making it sound like a widespread issue when it’s far from the case.

Exclude/ridicule =/= kick asap. If you look at the MASSIVE other posts about DPS meters you will see that the majority of posters here are against it. If you look in this post you will see alot of players are against it. I keep saying that because that is one of the main reasons people have been against DPS meters in GW2 from day 1. The amount of times I state it doesn’t make it any more or less extreme or widespread an issue. The only real way to see how widespread it would be, would be to add it and see what happens, which I’m not a fan of.

While I would like in-game DPS meters just to really simplify testing I think this would open up a whole can of worms.

It’s not just DPS meters that makes DPS meters valuable. It’s healing meters, overhealing meters, interrupt meters, damage taken. Allowing addons could mean allowing boss mods with timers. Is that a Pandora’s Box we want to open?

DPS meters would mostly just show what classes are currently OP. The only benefit is if you want to compare 2 people of the same class.

Not really worth the development time.

Miku.6297:

Never said you did, I was pointing out that in general, the extreme focus on DPS vs other things that meters tend to bring may miss out on many other aspects of play.

The thing is, if you decide to leave things out because people won’t understand it or will misunderstand it there’s not much that you can add. Everyone else shouldn’t be held back because others don’t know how to interpret the results of the tool.

Miku.6297:

That’s true there are are games that have meters that can track a variety of different things. How ever tracking everything and tracking meaningful actions aren’t always the same.

True, but more information is going to be better then less information in this case.

Miku.6297:

In a game about inclusion, why is there a need for competing with other players in the same role and same class?

Because it’s fun and can benefit the group? And the game isn’t necessarily about inclusion, especially when it comes to raids.

Miku.6297:

It’s not a competition, the highest numbers doesn’t always mean the best player.

It often is or can be, though. And improving and starting to kick out high numbers is awesome.

Miku.6297:

Exclude/ridicule =/= kick asap. If you look at the MASSIVE other posts about DPS meters you will see that the majority of posters here are against it.

Not really. It’s generally a pretty even split.

Miku.6297:

If you look in this post you will see alot of players are against it.

And many players for it, too, just like in the other million of these topics.

Miku.6297:

I keep saying that because that is one of the main reasons people have been against DPS meters in GW2 from day 1. The amount of times I state it doesn’t make it any more or less extreme or widespread an issue.

The thing is, it’s a wide-spouted idea without much to back it up. The number of times you state it doesn’t make it any more true, especially without anything to prove it.

Objections to dps meters are classic examples of the no-perfect-solution fallacy. Just because players that are already idiotic will find a new way to be idiots if given a tool beyond their intelligence doesn’t mean it’s a bad tool. The very same people that would supposedly become ‘toxic’ when given dps meters are already being ‘toxic’.

Dps meters are useful to people that care about winning. Given that raids are supposed to be for players that care about winning I don’t see why there’s a problem.

Coldtart.4785:

Objections to dps meters are classic examples of the no-perfect-solution fallacy. Just because players that are already idiotic will find a new way to be idiots if given a tool beyond their intelligence doesn’t mean it’s a bad tool. The very same people that would supposedly become ‘toxic’ when given dps meters are already being ‘toxic’.

Dps meters are useful to people that care about winning. Given that raids are supposed to be for players that care about winning I don’t see why there’s a problem.

Not really. It’s very basic, tried and true psychology: the easier something is to do, the more likely people are going to do it.

Honestly I find this entire discussion about what would happen with DPS meters to be an aside. We have history to show what happens. The real question is: do the advantages that DPS meters give (ease of testing, immediate self evaluation and improvement, bragging rights, curiosity) worth the disadvantages that DPS meters cause (elitism and discrimination).

Just pitching in to say that with my 10 years of mmo experience in WoW, both damage meters and “item score” contributed nothing positive to that game.